/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 12 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> gb18030 is nuts
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  15. # [00:21] <jgraham> or gblboeo as I call it
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  17. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> heh
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  53. # [01:09] <JonathanNeal> Is there a Fetch test suite? https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/
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  83. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: none that I know of
  84. # [01:32] <JonathanNeal> Is the fetch API fairly simple? Is it a Promise-ified XMLHttpRequest?
  85. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> yeah that would be fair way to describe it I guess
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  87. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> Thanks, MikeSmith. Sounds good.
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  91. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: there's a polyfill at https://github.com/github/fetch in case you've not found it on your own yet
  92. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> that does have a few tests
  93. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> and I guess you realize this but there's a lot more to the Fetch spec than just the API that's exposed
  94. # [01:39] <JonathanNeal> Yes, I’m seeing that as I look through the Headers and CORS sections.
  95. # [01:40] <zewt> dear firefox, #1 thing that will make me turn off auto-updates entirely: having a dialog with "update" and "later" buttons, but no "stop nagging me entirely" button
  96. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> "stop nagging me entirely" sounds like "turn off auto-updates entirely" anyway.
  97. # [01:43] <zewt> telling me about an update once (and presumably downloading it for me) is different from disabling update checks outright
  98. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> In practice, not really. Most people will simple forget about it and not update.
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  100. # [01:45] <zewt> apple does the same bullshit, and they're more deliberately-obtuse about it--the options are "install now", "remind me in an hour", and "remind me tomorrow" (or something to that effect), which is many miles beyond okay
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  102. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Chrome, of course, just makes the hamburger turn yellow, then red. (And, though my coworkers keep denying it, I swear it also purposely starts breaking audio when you delay too long.)
  103. # [01:46] <zewt> chrome is pretty strict about not making the browser worse when you update, which firefox is not so good about
  104. # [01:46] <zewt> which makes me much less hesitant to let chrome update than firefox
  105. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Can't comment on that.
  106. # [01:47] <zewt> chrome did basically remove user scripts at one point, which is the only reason I'm still loading firefox at all
  107. # [01:47] <zewt> the biggest breakage on a chrome update that I know of (for my usage patterns)
  108. # [01:48] <zewt> it's depressing that, for all the work people do, the web is unambiguously worse for me today than it was a year or two ago
  109. # [01:49] <zewt> as far as real-world day to day use
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  138. # [02:08] <roc> some of that's because of the hard work the bad guys are doing
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  175. # [03:00] <JonathanNeal> what’s the hard work the bad guys are doing and who are the bad guys?
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  195. # [03:46] <JonathanNeal> roc: ^
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  198. # [03:54] <roc> a ton of browser developer time and energy goes towards blocking the efforts of malware authors and
  199. # [03:54] <roc> "black hat" hackers
  200. # [03:55] <roc> and apart from the opportunity costs, this sometimes results directly in restrictions on what users and Web devs can do
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  218. # [04:50] <JonathanNeal> Until things get better, the indie web helps, roc.
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  220. # [04:54] <caitp> trying to block the efforts of malware distributors and plugging exploitable holes seems like a suitable thing to spend time on, though
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  224. # [05:12] <JonathanNeal> agreed, the web is our new wild west
  225. # [05:13] <JonathanNeal> well, new like the 90’s is still kinda new.
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  248. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: something that's been bugging me about the http://w3c-test.org/encoding/iso-2022-jp-encoder.html and http://w3c-test.org/encoding/gb18030-encoder.html and http://w3c-test.org/encoding/gbk-encoder.html testーthose aren't strictly tests of the encoding spec only, they're actually also tests of the URL. In other words, I couldn't be review/evaluate them just by looking at the Encoding spec, I needed to look at the URL spec too. So I wonder whether
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  254. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: also about the "iso-2022-jp encoder: SI/SO ESC" test, since nobody passes it and the actual behavior matches in gecko, webkit, and blink (they all return exactly the same thing, even though it doesn't match the spec), I wonder if the spec should change here to match the implementations
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  257. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: or wait is that actually a problem in the test case itself?
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  259. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: so yeah looking back at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/encoding/iso-2022-jp-encoder.html#L12 now, I don't understand why you're doing that res.split("%1B").join("\x1B"). If that step in the test code is omitted, then the test passes as expected.
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  267. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: also r? https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1383 (minor nit)
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  303. # [08:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: r+
  304. # [08:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems you're correct about that, I made a mistake
  305. # [08:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: although if you remove that split().join() line there's a few changes needed earlier too
  306. # [08:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: and there's no way to not have a dependency on either URLs or forms
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  330. # [09:48] <annevk> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1093611 is about changing Gecko with respect to URL fragments
  331. # [09:48] <annevk> zcorpan: i.e. align it with Safari and the original RFC
  332. # [09:48] <zcorpan> annevk: ok cool
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  334. # [09:49] <zcorpan> annevk: do you know if there's a blink bug?
  335. # [09:49] <annevk> zcorpan: I don't know
  336. # [09:49] <annevk> zcorpan: it's only been fairly recent there's interest in URLs again
  337. # [09:50] <annevk> zcorpan: although in Gecko we're mostly patching a broken setup
  338. # [09:50] <annevk> Hopefully at some point we're going for the rewrite
  339. # [09:52] <annevk> http://jxck.hatenablog.com/entry/whatwg-fetch :-)
  340. # [09:52] <zcorpan> i'll wait and see what happens with that bug
  341. # [09:55] <Dashiva> I feel like there isn't enough "Stop trying to make fetch happen" jokes
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  344. # [09:59] <annevk> http://www.hcn.zaq.ne.jp/___/WEB/Fetch-ja.html wow
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  349. # [10:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah you already merged
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  352. # [10:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: thanks, will create a new thing to fix the issue you found
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  375. # [10:34] <zcorpan> hmm so firefox developer edition is aurora + a preinstalled extension?
  376. # [10:36] <zcorpan> the name and logo somehow makes me think of opera developer :-)
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  379. # [10:38] <zcorpan> i guess it's more inviting than "aurora" which maybe makes people think it's a decease
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  384. # [10:54] <annevk> timezone math in Google is nifty
  385. # [10:54] <annevk> I wish it supported "4pm Amsterdam in Toronto" as well
  386. # [10:54] <annevk> I never remember the timezone names
  387. # [10:55] <annevk> 4pm cet in toronto doesn't even work
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  404. # [11:22] <jgraham> zcorpan: AIUI "aurora" doesn't exist anymore; the release channels are nightly -> developer -> beta -> stable
  405. # [11:23] <jgraham> But I haven't haven't actually verified that
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  410. # [11:34] <annevk> jgraham: looks correct per https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/channel/#aurora (though note the fragment)
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  413. # [11:37] <jgraham> Right, aurora still exists on android, and I doubt we managed to update every externally visible use of the term already
  414. # [11:39] <annevk> I like dbaron's plan of removing beta
  415. # [11:42] <jgraham> Yeah I'm not sure how valuable the 12 week cycle is compared to a 6 week cycle, but I don't have the numbers on how many bugs we fix in that period
  416. # [11:43] <jgraham> Seems like it should be possible to figure out
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  426. # [12:05] <matijs> annevk: wolframalpha's got you covered for timezone conversions… http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=4pm+CET+in+toronto
  427. # [12:05] <matijs> sorry… https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=4pm+CET+in+toronto
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  429. # [12:13] <jgraham> Yeah, but it's also really slow to load :(
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  450. # [13:03] <annevk> I really want Google to support U+XXXX for similar reasons
  451. # [13:03] <annevk> CSS property names and other web developer related aspects would be great too
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  457. # [13:19] <farnoy> Hi, is there a way to get canvas composite operation `difference` work on non-100% opacity colors too?
  458. # [13:19] <farnoy> Both `difference` and `xor` seem to work only on 100% opaque areas
  459. # [13:20] <annevk> jgraham: http://wptserve.readthedocs.org/en/latest/response.html is all I need a Python file with a handler definition or is there more to it?
  460. # [13:24] <annevk> farnoy: dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/#porterduffcompositingoperators_xor is the math, I don't really understand what it does, but if browsers don't match what that says, you might want to file a bug
  461. # [13:24] <annevk> argh address bar
  462. # [13:26] <annevk> hmm UK lunch times
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  468. # [13:42] <jgraham> annevk: In my case more like "UK being on a train times"
  469. # [13:43] <jgraham> annevk: Yes, although note that the exact interface there is only needed for difficult cases
  470. # [13:44] <jgraham> In simple cases the main() function can just return a status code / list of headers / body
  471. # [13:44] <jgraham> (the first two are optional)
  472. # [13:44] <annevk> jgraham: the example as is didn't work
  473. # [13:45] <annevk> jgraham: main does seem to work (I copied some stuff from XHR)
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  475. # [13:45] <jgraham> annevk: Sorry the documenation is a bit confusing
  476. # [13:45] <jgraham> the main() thing is a feature of web-platform-tests rather than vanilla wptserve
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  484. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah sorry I hadn't checked the iso-2022-jp encoding test carefully enough before I merged it. Thanks for fixing it
  485. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: also btw I think you'll be glad to know there are now bugzilla components for all the webappsec specs
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  489. # [14:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: sweet
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  498. # [14:23] <annevk> jgraham: fine to mix async_test and test?
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  502. # [14:28] <jgraham> annevk: Yes
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  517. # [14:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1384
  518. # [14:59] * MikeSmith looks
  519. # [14:59] <annevk> jgraham: ^ has the Python file I was asking about
  520. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> ah cool
  521. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: will review
  522. # [15:02] <annevk> If anyone can think of more things to test with the data I have there, I'd be open to adding more things
  523. # [15:02] <annevk> Actually using the data from the <iframe> is a bit tricky since the HTML parser mangles a couple of bytes
  524. # [15:02] <annevk> Perhaps we should still do that though
  525. # [15:03] <annevk> Probably only affects \x00 and \r
  526. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'd bet zcorpan can think of more things. But it's sometimes dangerous to ask him unless you're prepared to actually do the more things
  527. # [15:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: heh, if it's too much work I'll commit a TODO I guess
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  532. # [15:08] <jgraham> MikeSmith++
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  536. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith++
  537. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> zcorpan++
  538. # [15:17] <zcorpan> what did i do?
  539. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> Think of more things to test, for as long as I can remember :)
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  648. # [18:20] <caitp> so how is the "please address our issues with custom elements / shadow dom / etc" thing coming? I'd love to be CC'd on such bugs if possible
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  653. # [18:29] <annevk> caitp: you could go through the open bugs and copy yourself ;)
  654. # [18:29] <caitp> it's impossible to find anything in there :(
  655. # [18:31] <annevk> caitp: anything recent you can find on public-webapps, as it's copied when a new bug is filed
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  667. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> annevk: What do you mean by "support u+xxxx"? Show a onebox for it?
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  669. # [18:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: if that's what it's called
  670. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, dunno where the terminology comes from.
  671. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> I just always click the filesystem.info link. ^_^
  672. # [18:45] <annevk> TabAtkins: me too, but if I just want to copy-and-paste the actual code point, it could be easier...
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  675. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> true that.
  676. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> We've got a thing to suggest new onebox results. I'll ping. ^_^
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  678. # [18:46] <annevk> TabAtkins: heh, can you ask about "4pm Amsterdam in Toronto"?
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  680. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> heh, k.
  681. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> (I always just ask for "time in toronto" and then add/subtract hours from current time as necessary.)
  682. # [18:47] <annevk> TabAtkins: it seems some timezone support was rolled out, but it's fairly US-centric, e.g. not even "4pm cet in toronto" works
  683. # [18:47] <annevk> "4pm pst in toronto" works
  684. # [18:47] <annevk> so weird
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  711. # [19:47] <annevk> JakeA: how much would you mind if I removed all the hyphens from https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#requestmode ?
  712. # [19:47] <annevk> JakeA: apparently there's precedent for enumerations to be lowercase and no hyphens
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  717. # [19:52] <Hixie> zcorpan: you have some sort of syntax error in your picture stuff
  718. # [19:52] <Hixie> search for "<var>image request</span>"
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  720. # [19:52] <JakeA> annevk: I'll ask the engineers how difficult it is to get a patch in for that. Will let you know.
  721. # [19:53] <annevk> JakeA: to be clear, from all enum productions
  722. # [19:54] <JakeA> annevk: everything in fetch right? So no-cors to nocors etc
  723. # [19:54] <annevk> JakeA: yup
  724. # [19:54] <annevk> ta
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  727. # [20:00] <JakeA> annevk: I mean, hyphens seem loads better in terms of usability (or camelCase, whatever)
  728. # [20:01] <annevk> Hixie: opinion?
  729. # [20:01] <Hixie> on?
  730. # [20:01] <annevk> Hixie: enum naming
  731. # [20:01] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. arraybuffer vs arrayBuffer vs array-buffer
  732. # [20:01] <Hixie> you mean strings in JS used as arguments?
  733. # [20:01] <annevk> yes
  734. # [20:02] <Hixie> if they're not used as identifiers, i'd just go with readable strings, e.g. "fat array"
  735. # [20:02] <annevk> I think it's mostly justonelongstring
  736. # [20:02] <Hixie> but i view "arraybuffer" as one word, so...
  737. # [20:02] <Hixie> i definitely wouldn't camelcase in a string
  738. # [20:05] <annevk> "no cors"
  739. # [20:05] <annevk> hmm
  740. # [20:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks, fixed
  741. # [20:05] <annevk> but then same origin or same-origin...
  742. # [20:05] <annevk> baaah
  743. # [20:05] <Hixie> zcorpan: coolio, regenning...
  744. # [20:06] <caitp> if something is not documented, nobody depends on it and you're free to break it in any way you see fit
  745. # [20:07] <Hixie> hahaha
  746. # [20:07] <Hixie> no
  747. # [20:07] <caitp> you're getting good at reading my sarcasm
  748. # [20:08] <annevk> caitp: well, you also suggested we could still change HTML parsing rules
  749. # [20:08] <caitp> i think it would be good to change it
  750. # [20:08] <caitp> i wouldn't say it wouldn't break anyone =)
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  752. # [20:10] <caitp> more just that I don't really care if people get broken due to depending on bogus misfeatures
  753. # [20:10] <caitp> :c
  754. # [20:11] <jarek> is something like "new HTMLDivElement()" supposed to work?
  755. # [20:11] <annevk> jarek: nope
  756. # [20:12] <caitp> not afaik
  757. # [20:12] <jarek> at least on Chrome I can do "new DocumentFragment()", so I would expect other DOM APIs to have usable constructors as well
  758. # [20:12] <annevk> jarek: you can tell by the lack of [Constructor]
  759. # [20:12] <caitp> i think there have been some arguments that it "should" work, though
  760. # [20:12] <annevk> jarek: that's because I gave DocumentFragment a constructor: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-documentfragment
  761. # [20:12] <jarek> annevk: I see, but there is nothing stopping WHATWG from adding the constructor in near future?
  762. # [20:13] <annevk> jarek: it's a bit hard for elements, since some interfaces are used for several elements
  763. # [20:13] <jsbell> What's WebIDL for "return type of a method that returns a promise that will fulfil to undefined"? Promise<void> or ... ?
  764. # [20:13] <annevk> jsbell: yes
  765. # [20:13] <jsbell> annevk: thx
  766. # [20:15] <jarek> annevk: but those are abstract interfaces, right?
  767. # [20:15] <jarek> on Chrome it's also possible to use "new" with custom element class that inherits from HTMLDivElement and has no constructor
  768. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> new HTMLDivElement()... Ugh
  769. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Whatever happened to Element.create()?
  770. # [20:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: got too complex
  771. # [20:16] <jarek> Ms2ger: what's wrong with "new" approach? Factory pattern was cool 10 years ago
  772. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> jarek, the interface name is awful
  773. # [20:17] <annevk> jarek: the problem with the new approach is abstract interfaces (e.g. HTMLHeadingElement) and the verbosity
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  776. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> jarek, and we have a localName <-> interface correspondence that makes that weird too
  777. # [20:19] <caitp> in 20 years, it will all be different, or irrelevant
  778. # [20:19] <caitp> pick one
  779. # [20:19] <jarek> Ms2ger: it's more generally HTML <-> JS correspondence
  780. # [20:19] <annevk> jarek: I don't think there's much opposition per se btw
  781. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> jarek, I don't follow that
  782. # [20:19] <jarek> Ms2ger: in JS I want to use constructors and in HTML localNames
  783. # [20:19] <annevk> jarek: it's just coming up with a good story that works for all elements
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  785. # [20:20] <annevk> jarek: e.g. that is why new DocumentFragment works, but new Element does not (yet?)
  786. # [20:21] <jarek> annevk: I think Dart already does it (via some heavy wrappers)
  787. # [20:21] <annevk> jarek: it isn't immediately obvious how you'd create an element {test, test} other than createElementNS("test", "test")
  788. # [20:22] <annevk> jarek: and if you were to suggest new Element("test", "test") that'd be somewhat weird as new Element("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "div") would return HTMLDivElement...
  789. # [20:22] <jarek> annevk: isn't createElementNS going to be depracated?
  790. # [20:22] <jarek> I thought the plan was to move SVG and MathML into HTML namespace
  791. # [20:22] <annevk> jarek: ah yeah, I guess that's still somewhat a plan Google has
  792. # [20:25] <jarek> all new geometry interfaces (DOMMatrix, DOMPoint, DOMRect) are created with "new" rather than factories
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  794. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> That seems like too much pain for too little gain
  795. # [20:26] <jarek> and the spec says that "new SVGMatrix" should also work because SVGMatrix should just reference DOMMatrix
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  798. # [20:28] <annevk> jarek: sure, new objects use constructors
  799. # [20:29] <annevk> jarek: but as long as there's no plan for existing objects, nothing will happen
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  819. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> The attempt to move SVG into the HTML namespace isn't a "Google" thing, it's a "me" thing, and the SVGWG explicitly agreed to try and do it at the last meeting, if possible.
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  823. # [21:13] <caitp> what difference would it make exactly? let people create SVG elements with createElement() instead of createElementNS() ?
  824. # [21:13] <caitp> seems like it wouldn't work with <a>
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  826. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> Yes, and making it a little less weird to intermix them more freely (putting <video>, <input>, etc inside of SVG)
  827. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> <a> is fine - SVG2 is dropping xlink:href in favor of href, so the elements'll match.
  828. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> <script> and <style> similarly can be merged.
  829. # [21:14] <caitp> so just getting rid of SVGAElement and using HTMLAnchorElement instead?
  830. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> And now that SVG Fonts are dropped, just using the HTML <font> is fine. That's all the clashes.
  831. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  832. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> That's the *hope*.
  833. # [21:15] <annevk> TabAtkins: sorry for misattribution
  834. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> annevk: No problem, I just don't like too many things getting attributed as "google stuff", because that plays into certain paranoid narratives.
  835. # [21:18] <caitp> so then what happens to everyones SVGAElements that do in fact use xlink stuff :p
  836. # [21:18] <annevk> TabAtkins: Google will burn for destroying namespaces
  837. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> SVG will allow xlink:href still, it'll just be lower-priority than href.
  838. # [21:18] <annevk> caitp has a point though that you cannot have both
  839. # [21:18] <annevk> Unless you make xlink:href work in HTML too...
  840. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> Some bleed-through back into HTML might be okay. Or maybe we can hackily make xlink:href only work if there's an <svg> ancestor.
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  845. # [21:26] <caitp> plus people would be like "hey this used to be an instance of SVGAElement but now it's not what happened"
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  847. # [21:27] <caitp> i mean, it gets a bit murky I think
  848. # [21:27] <caitp> cool though
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  850. # [21:30] <gsnedders> sure!
  851. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> We're somewhat concerned about code that uses "is this in the SVG namespace?" to do something special.
  852. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> We know that a decent chunk of code is for papering over differences in basic DOM operations between SVG and HTML elements, and now that most (and eventually all?) are consistent, having that sort of code go down the HTML path will be fine.
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  866. # [22:10] <Hixie> in the ES6 iterator protocol, can done ever be true with value being set to some useful value?
  867. # [22:10] <Hixie> or is it always either done, or value?
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  872. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> A *valid* iterator won't ever do that.
  873. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> You can make a custom iterator that violates the constraints, but that's your fault then.
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  875. # [22:24] <caitp> from https://github.com/v8/v8-git-mirror/blob/d3d29c640cf14f0eac2057b4fbffa5fbc0a29231/src/x64/full-codegen-x64.cc#L1242-L1281, it looks like it's a `done or value` scenario, haven't checked the spec
  876. # [22:24] <Hixie> right, i mean according to the protocol
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  878. # [22:24] <Hixie> k
  879. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, a valid iterator only ever produces a {value} object or a {done} object.
  880. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> (Or {value: foo, done: false}, of course.)
  881. # [22:26] <caitp> i guess technically you could return anything you wanted from @@iterator though
  882. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and then it's your fault for getting possibly-confusing results.
  883. # [22:27] <caitp> were you inclined to confuse the vm
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  891. # [22:39] <annevk> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-iteratorresult-interface
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  894. # [22:40] <Hixie> man the ES6 iterator protocol really makes it a pain to work out if you're dealing with the last item in the list
  895. # [22:41] <annevk> I suspect if you use a language feature you don't really have that problem
  896. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Languages that make it easier for the consumer end up being *way* harder for the producer. There was a lot of argument over this originally.
  897. # [22:42] <Hixie> yeah
  898. # [22:42] <Hixie> well
  899. # [22:42] <Hixie> either way :-)
  900. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> (You generally end up having to duplicate code between isEnded() and next(), or pre-compute next() to see if it's at the end and stash it away.)
  901. # [22:42] <Hixie> (personally i always prefer to make it harder on the producer)
  902. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> I've found that, while a "late end" is a little harder for the consumer, it's not a huge deal, and sometimes easier.
  903. # [22:42] <Hixie> (since there are fewer of those)
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  905. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> Chaining iterables, for example, is slightly simpler, at least to me, with a late end.
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  909. # [22:44] <annevk> Why is it hard btw? Just check if done is true?
  910. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Also, sometimes you *can't* early-end, while you can always late-end. For example, your iterable might be lazily pulling stuff off the server.
  911. # [22:44] <Hixie> annevk: say you want to add all the numbers in an iteration except hte last one
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  913. # [22:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: *shrug* i'm just saying it's a pain. not making a counter-proposal.
  914. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, I know. I'm just providing more reasons why it was done the way it was, despite the pain.
  915. # [22:45] <caitp> do we have generator-iterators?
  916. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  917. # [22:45] <caitp> huh.
  918. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Why "huh"?
  919. # [22:45] <annevk> while iterval.done != true ...?
  920. # [22:45] <caitp> i'm just imagining that working in a for...of context
  921. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: If you want all *but* the last, you have to specially stash the last one you've seen, and only add it in the *next* iteration if you're not done yet.
  922. # [22:46] <caitp> which is the way everyone ought to want to use iterators, because it's nice :(
  923. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Though this isn't a big deal - if you want all but the last *two*, you have to do something like this regardless of early/late end.
  924. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> caitp: generators work fine in for-of. What problem are you thinking about?
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  926. # [22:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah iterators in general have this problem, basically
  927. # [22:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: as opposed to access by index
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  929. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Of course, you can abstract this away with an iterator combinator that drops the last N elements. It needs to seek ahead N elements, of course, but that's what you'd be manually doing anyway.
  930. # [22:48] <annevk> TabAtkins: why do you have to wait for the next value? It tells you whether more is coming, no?
  931. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Then you can just do itersum(dropLast(1, iter))
  932. # [22:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: interesting idea
  933. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> annevk: No. You either have a "value" frame, or a "done" frame.
  934. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> You don't know it's done until you ask for the next value and get a "done" frame instead.
  935. # [22:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: probably not great for perf, but if it's not hot code, could work
  936. # [22:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: ah sorry
  937. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie: When working with iterators, more combinators is always the right answer. They're easy to code up and easy to use.
  938. # [22:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: I see it now
  939. # [22:49] <annevk> thanks
  940. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie: It's the same thing you'll be doing manually, so I dont' see the perf concern (except for more function calls, I suppose.)
  941. # [22:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: function calls can be expensive, depending on the language
  942. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Sure. Those languages aren't very good for iterator-based code, which is heavily functional.
  943. # [22:52] <Hixie> i have profiled this in JS, so i don't know what the overhead would be
  944. # [22:52] <Hixie> i wouldn't be surprised if it was measurable, though
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  946. # [22:52] <annevk> Hixie: you're actually writing JS these days?
  947. # [22:53] <Hixie> i often write js code :-P
  948. # [22:53] <Hixie> our whole platform uses js :-P
  949. # [22:54] <Hixie> but in this instance, i'm basically trying to learn all the new stuff to get more up to date
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  951. # [22:54] <caitp> [16:46] <TabAtkins> caitp: generators work fine in for-of. What problem are you thinking about? <<< well it's not generators that are the issue really, but in my head i'm expecting async iterators would be likely to use them --- but mostly it's the whole "async for-of" that i'm talking about, does that work?
  952. # [22:54] <caitp> it's hard to verify in d8, so I'm not sure
  953. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Ah, async generators will produce promises. Consuming that directly with a for-of is obviously tricky, unless you really want to work with promises (which you might). Along with async/await there's a proposal for an asynchronous version of for-of that handles async generators transparently.
  954. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> (And I think it just returns promises of iterator frames, so using for-of over an async generator won't be useful, as it'll produce an infinite list.)
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  956. # [22:58] <caitp> infinite lists don't sound very useful, no
  957. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> They're very useful. Just not in a for-of when you can't actually verify where to manually break.
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  959. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Like, I've used prime number generators before - clearly infinite.
  960. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Or just infinite ranges.
  961. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Frex, Bikeshed's ID deduping appends an int to the end fo the ID to make it unique. It just creates an infinite list starting from 0 and iterators until it finds a non-clashing one.
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  966. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> s/ors/es/
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  969. # [23:06] <Hixie> is "let x; let x;" valid?
  970. # [23:06] <Hixie> "var x; var x;" is
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  972. # [23:06] <Hixie> though the second "var x" does sod all
  973. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> I don't *think* it is, but I'm not sure.
  974. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> var has stupid scoping and nobody cares about it.
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  976. # [23:07] <Hixie> i care about it, but ok
  977. # [23:09] <Domenic> let x; let x; is not valid
  978. # [23:09] <Hixie> k
  979. # [23:09] <Domenic> in fact var x; let x; is not valid
  980. # [23:09] <Hixie> sure that makes sense
  981. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> let x; if(...) { let x; } *is* valid, though.
  982. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> New scope.
  983. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> (As is putting the let inside the if condition - it shares scope with its contents.)
  984. # [23:11] <Hixie> sure
  985. # [23:11] <Hixie> the case i was looking at was:
  986. # [23:12] <Hixie> let x = 0; while (...) { ... }
  987. # [23:12] <Hixie> let x = 0; while (...) { ... }
  988. # [23:12] <Hixie> where it would be aesthetically pleasing for the let to be valid
  989. # [23:12] <Hixie> but it's just as easy to do:
  990. # [23:12] <Hixie> let x;
  991. # [23:12] <Hixie> x = 0; while (...) { ... }
  992. # [23:12] <Hixie> x = 0; while (...) { ... }
  993. # [23:13] <jyasskin_> for (let x = 0; ...; ) {...} ?
  994. # [23:13] <Hixie> x isn't in the while loop
  995. # [23:13] <Hixie> er
  996. # [23:13] <Hixie> in the condition
  997. # [23:13] <Hixie> it's just an accumulator
  998. # [23:13] <Hixie> or similar
  999. # [23:13] <Hixie> or a state boolean
  1000. # [23:13] <Hixie> or any number of other things
  1001. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you just can't do the repeated let. Do it once and set it twice, instead.
  1002. # [23:16] <Hixie> classes have no syntax for value properties, right? you have to create the property in the constructor?
  1003. # [23:16] <Hixie> and there's no privates in classes? not even using Symbols?
  1004. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Value properties being "properties on the instance"?
  1005. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> And what do you mean by "private", specifically? That term is wrapped up in a lot of language-specific baggage, just like "class". ^_^
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  1007. # [23:20] <jsbell> { let x = 0; while (...) { ... } }
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  1011. # [23:23] <Hixie> TabAtkins: value properties meaning values without getters or setters, which in the case of JS would be on the instance, yes
  1012. # [23:23] <Hixie> by "private" i mean "not accessible to code outside the class"
  1013. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Yes, instance properties are done in the constructor.
  1014. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> You can implement private state by using WeakMaps.
  1015. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> (And that'll be easier to use when we figure out relations and their syntax.)
  1016. # [23:26] <Hixie> how do you do private state with weakmaps?
  1017. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> You use the instance as the key, and the state as the value. Then you use standard closure-based data-hiding to only expose the weakmap to the class's own methods.
  1018. # [23:27] <Hixie> how do you do the latter?
  1019. # [23:27] <Hixie> (also, that's really ugly)
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  1021. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> (function(){ let x = new WeakMap(); class foo { ... }; })()
  1022. # [23:28] <Hixie> wouldn't "foo" also be non-visible then
  1023. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> You can return it.
  1024. # [23:28] <Hixie> ...
  1025. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> var foo = (...)
  1026. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: this is what everyone does
  1027. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Some form of "real" private state would involve reifying classes more than we wanted to do at this point. Maximin classes passed because they're sugar over the existing system.
  1028. # [23:29] <Hixie> well, nobody actually does this
  1029. # [23:29] <Hixie> since class { } doesn't work yet
  1030. # [23:29] <Hixie> but also, everyone says js sucks
  1031. # [23:30] <Hixie> i was assuming we were trying to fix that :-)
  1032. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> They (and by that I mean, at least I) do this today with .prototype munging code.
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