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- # Session Start: Fri Dec 12 00:00:00 2014
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [02:26] <Domenic> TabAtkins: best practices for abbreviated <dfn>s in bikeshed specs/specs in general? I am thinking "A <dfn>exclusive stream reader</dfn> or <dfn>reader</dfn> is..." but maybe the second one shouldn't be <dfn>ed?
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- # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Use a long enough name that it stands a good chance of being globally unique; makes everyone's lives easier. If you want to use a shorter term within your spec, use the local-title='' attribute, which'll create linking text solely for local autolinks, without exporting.
- # [02:40] <TabAtkins> So <dfn export local-title="reader">exclusive stream reader</dfn> will give you the long term for autolinking from elsewhere, and the short term locally for convenience.
- # [02:40] <Domenic> OK. And just remove the <dfn> around the word "reader" later in the sentence?
- # [02:42] <TabAtkins> yeah.
- # [02:42] <Domenic> sgtm
- # [02:43] <Domenic> all of my stuff is <dfn>s so at some point I need to go change them into <dfn export>s
- # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Alternately, keep the <dfn> around reader, just don't export it. It'll only be autolinkable if people specify they want it from the spec.
- # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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- # [10:43] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#dom-cssstyledeclaration-item doesn't say what happens for out-of-range arguments
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- # [10:47] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: can you file a bug?
- # [10:47] <Ms2ger> Sure
- # [10:48] <Ms2ger> I see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27590 already exists for the other thing that confused me :)
- # [10:48] <zcorpan> thx
- # [10:51] <Ms2ger> annevk, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3473
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- # [10:57] <annevk> oh shit, I didn't realize you were just moving things
- # [10:57] <annevk> oh well
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- # [11:19] <Ms2ger> annevk, well, not sure if anyone's reviewed it before :)
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- # [11:25] <Ms2ger> annevk, trying to figure out where the normative requirement is exactly...
- # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Is it "If the CORS flag is set and a CORS check for request and response returns failure, return a network error." in Fetch?
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- # [11:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: actually, I wonder whether that test is correct at all
- # [11:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: it looks bogus
- # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Hrm
- # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: at the time XHR does send(); it should issue a CORS-with-forced-preflight
- # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: due to event listeners being attached
- # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: which would make progress events work
- # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Isn't that only with event listeners on xhr.upload?
- # [11:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: oh good point
- # [11:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: okay so yeah, this is about failing before any progress tasks would be queued
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- # [11:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, so is that covered by the bit I quoted?
- # [11:40] * Ms2ger still doesn't know his way around Fetch
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- # [11:56] <smaug____> goal for the next year, try to understand what Fetch is about :)
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- # [12:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah
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- # [12:41] <Ms2ger> annevk, okay, thanks
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- # [13:15] <ondras> https://www.ups-scs.com/contact/technical_support_questions.html
- # [13:15] <ondras> nice Browser Type options
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- # [13:27] <annevk> Anyone here familiar with bikeshed?
- # [13:27] <annevk> I'm getting "FATAL ERROR: Functions/methods must end with () in their linking text, got 'href'." and I've no idea what is wrong
- # [13:32] <zcorpan_> annevk: it's expecting <dfn>href()</dfn>. maybe change the dfn type (don't remember which attribute to change the type)
- # [13:32] <annevk> I don't even know how that can happen since I'm not changing any of that
- # [13:33] <annevk> I think rubys must be using a different version of bikeshed
- # [13:33] <annevk> *sigh*
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- # [13:34] <annevk> Okay so something is wrong with "stringifier"
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- # [13:50] <annevk> I pushed a PR against whatwg/url... Hopefully this gets fixed somehow
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- # [14:36] <rubys> fdd7aa2dfce7b2ed8b8f00c7dc628aeada61fad6 is the first bad commit
- # [14:36] <rubys> commit fdd7aa2dfce7b2ed8b8f00c7dc628aeada61fad6
- # [14:36] <rubys> Author: Tab Atkins <jackalmage@gmail.com>
- # [14:36] <rubys> Date: Wed Dec 3 11:24:08 2014 -0800
- # [14:36] <rubys> Add stringifier to the functionish types. Use construct.methodName, per plinss recommendation.
- # [14:36] <rubys> :040000 040000 cad74a9ec249d4cd7f358bb2b26a651e49f711c2 9bd6d22e2d39f6393c90f4be02d684c2e05a299c M bikeshed
- # [14:36] <rubys> bisect run success
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- # [14:44] <annevk> Maybe bikeshed should have a pre/postcommit hook to make sure it doesn't actually break any specs
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- # [14:46] <JakeA> annevk: is there a collective term for requests that may potentially create a new client?
- # [14:46] <annevk> potentially?
- # [14:47] <JakeA> annevk: I guess the only potential is embed
- # [14:47] <JakeA> (and object)
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- # [14:47] <annevk> Commented out I have this:
- # [14:47] <JakeA> And we ignore those in ServiceWorker at the moment
- # [14:47] <annevk> <p>A <dfn>client request</dfn> is a <span title=concept-request>request</span> whose
- # [14:47] <annevk> <span title=concept-request-context>context</span> is one of <i title>child</i>,
- # [14:47] <annevk> <i title>navigate</i>, <i title>popup</i>, and <i title>sharedworker</i>.
- # [14:48] <annevk> but that seems out of date with the contexts we have
- # [14:48] <JakeA> Yeah, needs to include form, anchor etc
- # [14:48] <annevk> And the opposite was "resource request"
- # [14:48] <JakeA> Client request works for me
- # [14:48] <JakeA> I'll write up a ticket
- # [14:49] <JakeA> (with the complete list of contexts)
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- # [14:50] <rubys> got a minimal test case for the bikeshed breakage, will open an issue. I don't see a workaround as being possible.
- # [14:54] <JakeA> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27595
- # [14:55] <rubys> https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/307
- # [14:59] <annevk> rubys++
- # [14:59] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, I'm not sure about your open question
- # [15:00] <JakeA> embed/object? They could be "potentially client requests"
- # [15:00] <JakeA> A different collection
- # [15:00] <annevk> I think plugin is fetches from a plugin
- # [15:01] <annevk> If the plugin uses the browser's network stack
- # [15:01] <JakeA> …then it's a resource
- # [15:01] <JakeA> cool
- # [15:01] <annevk> Would need to check with Mike to be sure, but I think that's correct, yes
- # [15:01] <annevk> "annoying requests" for object/embed
- # [15:02] <annevk> clientcurious
- # [15:02] <JakeA> haha
- # [15:06] <annevk> JakeA: oh btw, per some feedback from Domenic and TabAtkins I might end up renaming all the /context/ things to "context" so prose and enums match
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- # [15:08] <JakeA> annevk: I don't follow, give me an example
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- # [15:11] <annevk> JakeA: currently the spec has /form/, it'll become "form"
- # [15:11] <annevk> JakeA: I guess serviceworker as client request makes sense, it will just never have an associated service worker
- # [15:13] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, I was thinking what new Request().client would be within a ServiceWorker
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- # [15:14] <annevk> JakeA: I thought .client was on FetchEvent?
- # [15:17] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, but https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/318 suggests request is better?
- # [15:18] <annevk> Ah right, so if client as a thing is only ever going to be useful in the context of a service worker, perhaps putting it on FetchEvent is not too bad
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- # [15:19] <annevk> And if we decide that it is useful outside of SW, we could always make FetchEvent.prototype.client's getter forward
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- # [15:21] <JakeA> Yeah, I'm fine with that
- # [15:22] <annevk> JakeA: actually, I thought we would not have .client there and maybe at some point have a handle back to the fetcher
- # [15:22] <annevk> JakeA: and only have clients exposed on the global
- # [15:23] <JakeA> annevk: true https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/575
- # [15:24] <JakeA> annevk: hah, I was hovered over the "Comment" button there when yours appeared
- # [15:24] <annevk> heh
- # [15:25] <annevk> Is the subscribe feature in GitHub new? Seems useful
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- # [15:30] <annevk> rubys: so some other things that broke are links to URLSearchParams, they would normally be #urlsearchparams whereas #dom-urlsearchparams would be a link to its constructor definition
- # [15:31] <annevk> rubys: it seems #url also no longer links to the URL interface
- # [15:31] <annevk> rubys: and the URL constructor is now #dom-url-url...
- # [15:32] <rubys> annevk: I've got some things I need to attend to today (for wife not work), so bug reports would be helpful.
- # [15:33] <annevk> rubys: sure
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- # [16:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: More people use Bikeshed than I even know about, so not breaking "any" specs as I update and tweak is likely impossible. ^_^
- # [16:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: But I do run Web Animations regularly, as it tends to use more complex things. I might add url to that regimen.
- # [16:33] <TabAtkins> annevk: The #dom-foo pattern for interface names is standard practice (though obviously it can be overridden by you). Dunno what standard practice is for constructor IDs, but it's currently treated as a method of the same name as the interface, thus the ID you see.
- # [16:33] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, it's not standard practice in specs that define interfaces
- # [16:34] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yes, it is?
- # [16:35] <Ms2ger> https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs/howto#Definitions
- # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Hm, ok.
- # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Wonder why I was told to implement it this way originally.
- # [16:38] <TabAtkins> annevk: Remember that I try hard to make sure that Bikeshed recovers gracefully from fatal errors, so if something is erroring wrongly, you can always do a force-generate until I fix the issue.
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- # [16:45] <annevk> TabAtkins: make force-generate?
- # [16:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: Your makefile is something y'all did on your own, I have no idea what options y'all have there.
- # [16:46] <annevk> I see
- # [16:46] <TabAtkins> But it's just passing the -f flag right after the command, `bikeshed -f spec`
- # [16:46] <annevk> Okay
- # [16:46] <TabAtkins> (Your makefile should probably force-generate by default.)
- # [16:47] <annevk> TabAtkins: the convention I know is #interfacename (interface) and #dom-interfacename (constructor), #dom-interfacename-member (member)
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- # [16:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Ms2ger pointed me to the wiki page.
- # [16:48] <TabAtkins> For some reason I was instructed differently when I was first putting together ID generation for IDL stuff.
- # [16:48] <annevk> :-(
- # [16:49] <rubys> I'd prefer not to pass the -f flag. Bikeshed detected errors should be fixed. 99% of the time, the right fix is to change the spec.
- # [16:50] <rubys> as to definitions, my preference is that the url standard not be an exception. If that means that there is a one time cost to move to what others have agreed to, I think we should do that.
- # [16:50] <TabAtkins> rubys: I dunno make. Is it possible to add some way to force-generate via make?
- # [16:50] <TabAtkins> rubys: yeah, moving IDs is no problem.
- # [16:50] <rubys> I can always do a force generate "manually" when I need to debug a problem.
- # [16:50] <TabAtkins> rubys: But annevk doesn't know how to do that.
- # [16:50] <rubys> s/doesn't/didn't/ :-)
- # [16:51] <annevk> rubys: define "others" and see the above page
- # [16:52] <rubys> annevk: I'm not going to define others. :) If the right fix is that bikeshed should change, then that's ok with me too.
- # [16:53] <annevk> Pretty sure the conventions used by URL predate bikeshed
- # [16:53] <TabAtkins> the only other big user of IDL so far is Web Animations. It's fine to move Bikeshed.
- # [16:53] <TabAtkins> There's not a ton of cross-linking of IDL between specs yet, so it's a good time to nail these down.
- # [16:53] <rubys> +1
- # [16:53] <TabAtkins> And fixing is just a matter of regenning if any links do break.
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- # [17:43] <TabAtkins> What in the hell? Why does github use flash somewhere on the page, and why is it suddenly crashing in my Chrome and preventing me from interacting with the page?
- # [17:44] <Domenic> TabAtkins: uses flash to make clipboard copy buttons work
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- # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Well, for some reason it's crashing in my ubuntu chrome. >_<
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- # [17:48] <rubys> fwiw, github works fine here (ubuntu 14.04, 64-bit intel desktop)
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- # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Annoyingly, that stringifier error was hitting codepaths that *didn't* fail gracefully when you forced the generation. That's fixed now. ^_^
- # [18:23] <TabAtkins> rubys: Sorry about not testing the stringifier-attribute form. I don't recall ever seeing it in real life before.
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- # [18:35] <jgraham> You know I would be more sympathetic to web crypo going through the process too fast if I hadn't sat in a room where everyone agreed that a testsuite was needed but refused to actually commit any resources to creating one.
- # [18:36] <boogyman> haha
- # [18:36] <boogyman> :(
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- # [18:59] <Domenic> there's an anandtech expose waiting to be written about specs being pushed through the process too fast
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- # [19:02] <annevk> From what I gather from tweets from sleevi it was not just things being pushed fast
- # [19:02] <annevk> That WG seemed rather broken
- # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Yeah, there seemed to be a lot of "okay, we know this is broken, but we want to implement it anyway, so it needs to be in the spec".
- # [19:05] <annevk> And a lot of spurious arguments around crypto algorithms
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- # [19:10] <TabAtkins> Basically it appeared there were several people in the group who didn't care about security, but rather about matching some existing crypto impl, or something like that.
- # [19:10] <TabAtkins> And the chair didn't suppress them sufficiently.
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- # [19:15] <annevk> For anyone interested in searchParams and URLSearchParams: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27596
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- # [19:59] <Domenic> annevk: ugh why can't we have nice things
- # [20:00] <boogyman> um, 1:1 ? that sounds bad
- # [20:02] <Domenic> annevk: I don't understand why your solution of replacing hte object upon navigation doens't work
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- # [20:57] <annevk> boogyman: why?
- # [20:58] <annevk> Domenic: Location is associated with a document's browsing context's active document; we could tie URLSearchParams to document, but what happens if you hold a reference to an older URLSearchParams object before you navigated and start to mutate it?
- # [20:59] <annevk> Domenic: that is why I came up with the idea of having an immutable variant
- # [21:00] <Domenic> annevk: is there something wrong the answer "the location object's other properties update, but otherwise nothing happens"?
- # [21:00] <Domenic> s/the location object/the old location object/
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- # [21:04] <annevk> Domenic: there's no old Location object
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- # [21:07] <Domenic> well, presumably someone could have saved it somewhere?
- # [21:07] <Domenic> or is there really only one window.location across navigations
- # [21:07] <annevk> Domenic: it doesn't change identity afaik
- # [21:07] <Domenic> ah
- # [21:07] <Domenic> well i guess then i'd say disassociate the old one so that mutating it does nothing to the location
- # [21:08] <Domenic> kind of strange but it is explicable
- # [21:08] <annevk> Domenic: we really need some diagrams for this set of objects at some point
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- # [21:08] <Domenic> +Infinity
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- # [21:08] <annevk> Domenic: I'm hoping to make some once I learn about a good tool since I keep messing up even the basics such as Window vs WindowProxy
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- # [21:09] <Domenic> I used http://gliffy.com/ for streams but their SVG support got worse recently so I had to re-code it all by hand
- # [21:09] <annevk> Yeah, I guess disassociation is what's needed, but that breaks "fast back" (or whatever it's called) in browsers that support such a thing
- # [21:10] <Domenic> They used data: URL images for arrows :(. Whereas you can just use <path marker-end> in SVG. https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/readable-stream.svg?short_path=48eff29#L56
- # [21:10] <boogyman> annevk: because so many languages already have support for domain.tld/?a=foo&a=bar&a=baz unless I am mistaken about that ticket.
- # [21:10] <Domenic> hmmmmm
- # [21:10] <annevk> boogyman: 1:1 is about the URL object and the URLSearchParams object
- # [21:10] <Domenic> i don't really understand fast back and how it impacts standards
- # [21:10] <Domenic> i guess html has a bfcache in the spec?
- # [21:10] <annevk> boogyman: not about how many parameters you can have
- # [21:10] <annevk> Domenic: yup
- # [21:11] <Domenic> i don't really feel like reading up on all that today :P
- # [21:11] <annevk> Domenic: I guess you could restore the association, but that seems really sketchy
- # [21:11] <Domenic> it's all pretty explicable I think in JS terms. (With internal slots/weak maps)
- # [21:12] <Domenic> Would want to write it out to be sure but if that's what you mean by sketchy, seems ok
- # [21:13] <boogyman> annevk: if the URL object is a hashmap, when would the various components ever not be 1:1 ?
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- # [21:30] <rubys> TabAtkins: I'm still seeing the problem:
- # [21:30] <rubys> FATAL ERROR: Functions/methods must end with () in their linking text, got 'href'.
- # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it ain't fixed yet.
- # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Been traveling all morning
- # [21:32] <TabAtkins> I just fixed the part where it crashed if you forced it.
- # [21:33] <rubys> oh, nevermind. I saw closed and thought it was fixed. It was referenced by another issue, and that issue is closed.
- # [21:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I can fix it now that the other issue is fixed.
- # [21:34] <rubys> I'm not rushing you; I honestly misunderstood.
- # [21:35] <TabAtkins> Good, because I'm busy doing my nails right now and won't be able to type for an hour. ^_^
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- # [21:39] <Domenic> Has anyone created a Firefox OpenSearch thing that restricts to html.spec.whatwg.org? I realized I'm appending "site:html.spec.whatwg.org" to many of my searches now
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- # [21:40] <Domenic> I guess it doesn't look very hard https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/Creating_OpenSearch_plugins_for_Firefox
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- # [23:02] <annevk> The relationship between URL and URLSearchParams is currently N:1
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- # Session Close: Sat Dec 13 00:00:00 2014
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