/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-12-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 12 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  52. # [02:26] <Domenic> TabAtkins: best practices for abbreviated <dfn>s in bikeshed specs/specs in general? I am thinking "A <dfn>exclusive stream reader</dfn> or <dfn>reader</dfn> is..." but maybe the second one shouldn't be <dfn>ed?
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  58. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Use a long enough name that it stands a good chance of being globally unique; makes everyone's lives easier. If you want to use a shorter term within your spec, use the local-title='' attribute, which'll create linking text solely for local autolinks, without exporting.
  59. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> So <dfn export local-title="reader">exclusive stream reader</dfn> will give you the long term for autolinking from elsewhere, and the short term locally for convenience.
  60. # [02:40] <Domenic> OK. And just remove the <dfn> around the word "reader" later in the sentence?
  61. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> yeah.
  62. # [02:42] <Domenic> sgtm
  63. # [02:43] <Domenic> all of my stuff is <dfn>s so at some point I need to go change them into <dfn export>s
  64. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Alternately, keep the <dfn> around reader, just don't export it. It'll only be autolinkable if people specify they want it from the spec.
  65. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  234. # [10:43] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#dom-cssstyledeclaration-item doesn't say what happens for out-of-range arguments
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  236. # [10:47] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: can you file a bug?
  237. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> Sure
  238. # [10:48] <Ms2ger> I see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27590 already exists for the other thing that confused me :)
  239. # [10:48] <zcorpan> thx
  240. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> annevk, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3473
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  244. # [10:57] <annevk> oh shit, I didn't realize you were just moving things
  245. # [10:57] <annevk> oh well
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  258. # [11:19] <Ms2ger> annevk, well, not sure if anyone's reviewed it before :)
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  262. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> annevk, trying to figure out where the normative requirement is exactly...
  263. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Is it "If the CORS flag is set and a CORS check for request and response returns failure, return a network error." in Fetch?
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  265. # [11:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: actually, I wonder whether that test is correct at all
  266. # [11:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: it looks bogus
  267. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  268. # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: at the time XHR does send(); it should issue a CORS-with-forced-preflight
  269. # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: due to event listeners being attached
  270. # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: which would make progress events work
  271. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Isn't that only with event listeners on xhr.upload?
  272. # [11:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: oh good point
  273. # [11:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: okay so yeah, this is about failing before any progress tasks would be queued
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  275. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, so is that covered by the bit I quoted?
  276. # [11:40] * Ms2ger still doesn't know his way around Fetch
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  279. # [11:55] * smaug____ has still no idea how Fetch works
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  281. # [11:56] <smaug____> goal for the next year, try to understand what Fetch is about :)
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  294. # [12:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah
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  302. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> annevk, okay, thanks
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  313. # [13:15] <ondras> https://www.ups-scs.com/contact/technical_support_questions.html
  314. # [13:15] <ondras> nice Browser Type options
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  319. # [13:27] <annevk> Anyone here familiar with bikeshed?
  320. # [13:27] <annevk> I'm getting "FATAL ERROR: Functions/methods must end with () in their linking text, got 'href'." and I've no idea what is wrong
  321. # [13:32] <zcorpan_> annevk: it's expecting <dfn>href()</dfn>. maybe change the dfn type (don't remember which attribute to change the type)
  322. # [13:32] <annevk> I don't even know how that can happen since I'm not changing any of that
  323. # [13:33] <annevk> I think rubys must be using a different version of bikeshed
  324. # [13:33] <annevk> *sigh*
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  326. # [13:34] <annevk> Okay so something is wrong with "stringifier"
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  337. # [13:50] <annevk> I pushed a PR against whatwg/url... Hopefully this gets fixed somehow
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  354. # [14:36] <rubys> fdd7aa2dfce7b2ed8b8f00c7dc628aeada61fad6 is the first bad commit
  355. # [14:36] <rubys> commit fdd7aa2dfce7b2ed8b8f00c7dc628aeada61fad6
  356. # [14:36] <rubys> Author: Tab Atkins <jackalmage@gmail.com>
  357. # [14:36] <rubys> Date: Wed Dec 3 11:24:08 2014 -0800
  358. # [14:36] <rubys> Add stringifier to the functionish types. Use construct.methodName, per plinss recommendation.
  359. # [14:36] <rubys> :040000 040000 cad74a9ec249d4cd7f358bb2b26a651e49f711c2 9bd6d22e2d39f6393c90f4be02d684c2e05a299c M bikeshed
  360. # [14:36] <rubys> bisect run success
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  363. # [14:44] <annevk> Maybe bikeshed should have a pre/postcommit hook to make sure it doesn't actually break any specs
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  365. # [14:46] <JakeA> annevk: is there a collective term for requests that may potentially create a new client?
  366. # [14:46] <annevk> potentially?
  367. # [14:47] <JakeA> annevk: I guess the only potential is embed
  368. # [14:47] <JakeA> (and object)
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  370. # [14:47] <annevk> Commented out I have this:
  371. # [14:47] <JakeA> And we ignore those in ServiceWorker at the moment
  372. # [14:47] <annevk> <p>A <dfn>client request</dfn> is a <span title=concept-request>request</span> whose
  373. # [14:47] <annevk> <span title=concept-request-context>context</span> is one of <i title>child</i>,
  374. # [14:47] <annevk> <i title>navigate</i>, <i title>popup</i>, and <i title>sharedworker</i>.
  375. # [14:48] <annevk> but that seems out of date with the contexts we have
  376. # [14:48] <JakeA> Yeah, needs to include form, anchor etc
  377. # [14:48] <annevk> And the opposite was "resource request"
  378. # [14:48] <JakeA> Client request works for me
  379. # [14:48] <JakeA> I'll write up a ticket
  380. # [14:49] <JakeA> (with the complete list of contexts)
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  382. # [14:50] <rubys> got a minimal test case for the bikeshed breakage, will open an issue. I don't see a workaround as being possible.
  383. # [14:54] <JakeA> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27595
  384. # [14:55] <rubys> https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/307
  385. # [14:59] <annevk> rubys++
  386. # [14:59] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, I'm not sure about your open question
  387. # [15:00] <JakeA> embed/object? They could be "potentially client requests"
  388. # [15:00] <JakeA> A different collection
  389. # [15:00] <annevk> I think plugin is fetches from a plugin
  390. # [15:01] <annevk> If the plugin uses the browser's network stack
  391. # [15:01] <JakeA> …then it's a resource
  392. # [15:01] <JakeA> cool
  393. # [15:01] <annevk> Would need to check with Mike to be sure, but I think that's correct, yes
  394. # [15:01] <annevk> "annoying requests" for object/embed
  395. # [15:02] <annevk> clientcurious
  396. # [15:02] <JakeA> haha
  397. # [15:06] <annevk> JakeA: oh btw, per some feedback from Domenic and TabAtkins I might end up renaming all the /context/ things to "context" so prose and enums match
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  400. # [15:08] <JakeA> annevk: I don't follow, give me an example
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  402. # [15:11] <annevk> JakeA: currently the spec has /form/, it'll become "form"
  403. # [15:11] <annevk> JakeA: I guess serviceworker as client request makes sense, it will just never have an associated service worker
  404. # [15:13] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, I was thinking what new Request().client would be within a ServiceWorker
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  406. # [15:14] <annevk> JakeA: I thought .client was on FetchEvent?
  407. # [15:17] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, but https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/318 suggests request is better?
  408. # [15:18] <annevk> Ah right, so if client as a thing is only ever going to be useful in the context of a service worker, perhaps putting it on FetchEvent is not too bad
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  410. # [15:19] <annevk> And if we decide that it is useful outside of SW, we could always make FetchEvent.prototype.client's getter forward
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  412. # [15:21] <JakeA> Yeah, I'm fine with that
  413. # [15:22] <annevk> JakeA: actually, I thought we would not have .client there and maybe at some point have a handle back to the fetcher
  414. # [15:22] <annevk> JakeA: and only have clients exposed on the global
  415. # [15:23] <JakeA> annevk: true https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/575
  416. # [15:24] <JakeA> annevk: hah, I was hovered over the "Comment" button there when yours appeared
  417. # [15:24] <annevk> heh
  418. # [15:25] <annevk> Is the subscribe feature in GitHub new? Seems useful
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  422. # [15:30] <annevk> rubys: so some other things that broke are links to URLSearchParams, they would normally be #urlsearchparams whereas #dom-urlsearchparams would be a link to its constructor definition
  423. # [15:31] <annevk> rubys: it seems #url also no longer links to the URL interface
  424. # [15:31] <annevk> rubys: and the URL constructor is now #dom-url-url...
  425. # [15:32] <rubys> annevk: I've got some things I need to attend to today (for wife not work), so bug reports would be helpful.
  426. # [15:33] <annevk> rubys: sure
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  445. # [16:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: More people use Bikeshed than I even know about, so not breaking "any" specs as I update and tweak is likely impossible. ^_^
  446. # [16:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: But I do run Web Animations regularly, as it tends to use more complex things. I might add url to that regimen.
  447. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> annevk: The #dom-foo pattern for interface names is standard practice (though obviously it can be overridden by you). Dunno what standard practice is for constructor IDs, but it's currently treated as a method of the same name as the interface, thus the ID you see.
  448. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, it's not standard practice in specs that define interfaces
  449. # [16:34] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yes, it is?
  450. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs/howto#Definitions
  451. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Hm, ok.
  452. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Wonder why I was told to implement it this way originally.
  453. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> annevk: Remember that I try hard to make sure that Bikeshed recovers gracefully from fatal errors, so if something is erroring wrongly, you can always do a force-generate until I fix the issue.
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  455. # [16:45] <annevk> TabAtkins: make force-generate?
  456. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: Your makefile is something y'all did on your own, I have no idea what options y'all have there.
  457. # [16:46] <annevk> I see
  458. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> But it's just passing the -f flag right after the command, `bikeshed -f spec`
  459. # [16:46] <annevk> Okay
  460. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> (Your makefile should probably force-generate by default.)
  461. # [16:47] <annevk> TabAtkins: the convention I know is #interfacename (interface) and #dom-interfacename (constructor), #dom-interfacename-member (member)
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  463. # [16:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Ms2ger pointed me to the wiki page.
  464. # [16:48] <TabAtkins> For some reason I was instructed differently when I was first putting together ID generation for IDL stuff.
  465. # [16:48] <annevk> :-(
  466. # [16:49] <rubys> I'd prefer not to pass the -f flag. Bikeshed detected errors should be fixed. 99% of the time, the right fix is to change the spec.
  467. # [16:50] <rubys> as to definitions, my preference is that the url standard not be an exception. If that means that there is a one time cost to move to what others have agreed to, I think we should do that.
  468. # [16:50] <TabAtkins> rubys: I dunno make. Is it possible to add some way to force-generate via make?
  469. # [16:50] <TabAtkins> rubys: yeah, moving IDs is no problem.
  470. # [16:50] <rubys> I can always do a force generate "manually" when I need to debug a problem.
  471. # [16:50] <TabAtkins> rubys: But annevk doesn't know how to do that.
  472. # [16:50] <rubys> s/doesn't/didn't/ :-)
  473. # [16:51] <annevk> rubys: define "others" and see the above page
  474. # [16:52] <rubys> annevk: I'm not going to define others. :) If the right fix is that bikeshed should change, then that's ok with me too.
  475. # [16:53] <annevk> Pretty sure the conventions used by URL predate bikeshed
  476. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> the only other big user of IDL so far is Web Animations. It's fine to move Bikeshed.
  477. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> There's not a ton of cross-linking of IDL between specs yet, so it's a good time to nail these down.
  478. # [16:53] <rubys> +1
  479. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> And fixing is just a matter of regenning if any links do break.
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  518. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> What in the hell? Why does github use flash somewhere on the page, and why is it suddenly crashing in my Chrome and preventing me from interacting with the page?
  519. # [17:44] <Domenic> TabAtkins: uses flash to make clipboard copy buttons work
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  522. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Well, for some reason it's crashing in my ubuntu chrome. >_<
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  525. # [17:48] <rubys> fwiw, github works fine here (ubuntu 14.04, 64-bit intel desktop)
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  552. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Annoyingly, that stringifier error was hitting codepaths that *didn't* fail gracefully when you forced the generation. That's fixed now. ^_^
  553. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> rubys: Sorry about not testing the stringifier-attribute form. I don't recall ever seeing it in real life before.
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  559. # [18:35] <jgraham> You know I would be more sympathetic to web crypo going through the process too fast if I hadn't sat in a room where everyone agreed that a testsuite was needed but refused to actually commit any resources to creating one.
  560. # [18:36] <boogyman> haha
  561. # [18:36] <boogyman> :(
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  573. # [18:59] <Domenic> there's an anandtech expose waiting to be written about specs being pushed through the process too fast
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  576. # [19:02] <annevk> From what I gather from tweets from sleevi it was not just things being pushed fast
  577. # [19:02] <annevk> That WG seemed rather broken
  578. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Yeah, there seemed to be a lot of "okay, we know this is broken, but we want to implement it anyway, so it needs to be in the spec".
  579. # [19:05] <annevk> And a lot of spurious arguments around crypto algorithms
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  583. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> Basically it appeared there were several people in the group who didn't care about security, but rather about matching some existing crypto impl, or something like that.
  584. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> And the chair didn't suppress them sufficiently.
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  587. # [19:15] <annevk> For anyone interested in searchParams and URLSearchParams: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27596
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  612. # [19:59] <Domenic> annevk: ugh why can't we have nice things
  613. # [20:00] <boogyman> um, 1:1 ? that sounds bad
  614. # [20:02] <Domenic> annevk: I don't understand why your solution of replacing hte object upon navigation doens't work
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  634. # [20:57] <annevk> boogyman: why?
  635. # [20:58] <annevk> Domenic: Location is associated with a document's browsing context's active document; we could tie URLSearchParams to document, but what happens if you hold a reference to an older URLSearchParams object before you navigated and start to mutate it?
  636. # [20:59] <annevk> Domenic: that is why I came up with the idea of having an immutable variant
  637. # [21:00] <Domenic> annevk: is there something wrong the answer "the location object's other properties update, but otherwise nothing happens"?
  638. # [21:00] <Domenic> s/the location object/the old location object/
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  641. # [21:04] <annevk> Domenic: there's no old Location object
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  646. # [21:07] <Domenic> well, presumably someone could have saved it somewhere?
  647. # [21:07] <Domenic> or is there really only one window.location across navigations
  648. # [21:07] <annevk> Domenic: it doesn't change identity afaik
  649. # [21:07] <Domenic> ah
  650. # [21:07] <Domenic> well i guess then i'd say disassociate the old one so that mutating it does nothing to the location
  651. # [21:08] <Domenic> kind of strange but it is explicable
  652. # [21:08] <annevk> Domenic: we really need some diagrams for this set of objects at some point
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  654. # [21:08] <Domenic> +Infinity
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  656. # [21:08] <annevk> Domenic: I'm hoping to make some once I learn about a good tool since I keep messing up even the basics such as Window vs WindowProxy
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  658. # [21:09] <Domenic> I used http://gliffy.com/ for streams but their SVG support got worse recently so I had to re-code it all by hand
  659. # [21:09] <annevk> Yeah, I guess disassociation is what's needed, but that breaks "fast back" (or whatever it's called) in browsers that support such a thing
  660. # [21:10] <Domenic> They used data: URL images for arrows :(. Whereas you can just use <path marker-end> in SVG. https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/readable-stream.svg?short_path=48eff29#L56
  661. # [21:10] <boogyman> annevk: because so many languages already have support for domain.tld/?a=foo&a=bar&a=baz unless I am mistaken about that ticket.
  662. # [21:10] <Domenic> hmmmmm
  663. # [21:10] <annevk> boogyman: 1:1 is about the URL object and the URLSearchParams object
  664. # [21:10] <Domenic> i don't really understand fast back and how it impacts standards
  665. # [21:10] <Domenic> i guess html has a bfcache in the spec?
  666. # [21:10] <annevk> boogyman: not about how many parameters you can have
  667. # [21:10] <annevk> Domenic: yup
  668. # [21:11] <Domenic> i don't really feel like reading up on all that today :P
  669. # [21:11] <annevk> Domenic: I guess you could restore the association, but that seems really sketchy
  670. # [21:11] <Domenic> it's all pretty explicable I think in JS terms. (With internal slots/weak maps)
  671. # [21:12] <Domenic> Would want to write it out to be sure but if that's what you mean by sketchy, seems ok
  672. # [21:13] <boogyman> annevk: if the URL object is a hashmap, when would the various components ever not be 1:1 ?
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  677. # [21:30] <rubys> TabAtkins: I'm still seeing the problem:
  678. # [21:30] <rubys> FATAL ERROR: Functions/methods must end with () in their linking text, got 'href'.
  679. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it ain't fixed yet.
  680. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Been traveling all morning
  681. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> I just fixed the part where it crashed if you forced it.
  682. # [21:33] <rubys> oh, nevermind. I saw closed and thought it was fixed. It was referenced by another issue, and that issue is closed.
  683. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I can fix it now that the other issue is fixed.
  684. # [21:34] <rubys> I'm not rushing you; I honestly misunderstood.
  685. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> Good, because I'm busy doing my nails right now and won't be able to type for an hour. ^_^
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  689. # [21:39] <Domenic> Has anyone created a Firefox OpenSearch thing that restricts to html.spec.whatwg.org? I realized I'm appending "site:html.spec.whatwg.org" to many of my searches now
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  691. # [21:40] <Domenic> I guess it doesn't look very hard https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/Creating_OpenSearch_plugins_for_Firefox
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  718. # [23:02] <annevk> The relationship between URL and URLSearchParams is currently N:1
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