/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-12-17 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Dec 17 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [03:14] <hgl> my mail to the www-style mailing list didn't get any response. any one in the room wants to help me? thank you so much. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0206.html
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# [03:46] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, When adding justify-content: center to a flex container, why does it cut off its children?
# [03:46] <Joseph_Silber> http://codepen.io/anon/pen/OPXMJb?editors=110
# [03:47] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, and only in Chrome. FF and IE leave the flex-item as is.
# [03:47] <Joseph_Silber> Which one is correct?
# [03:50] <Joseph_Silber> Actually, I see it has nothing to do with justify-content.
# [03:50] <Joseph_Silber> So who is right there?
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# [03:52] <TabAtkins> Like always, this is caused by Chrome not yet respecting the min-width/height:auto stuff in the spec.
# [03:53] <caitp> safari looks like it's doing the most reasonable thing there, to me
# [03:53] <caitp> looks really weird in FF nightly
# [03:56] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, is there any temporary workaround?
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# [03:59] <TabAtkins> Don't limit the size of the container. if it's auto-sized, it'll expand fully, like you see in FF.
# [03:59] <TabAtkins> If you need it to expand when it's mostly empty, too, just make <body> a flexbox as well. ^_^
# [03:59] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, i want the container to scroll
# [04:00] <Joseph_Silber> But I want the flex-item to vertically align if it's smaller than the container
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# [04:01] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, also, if I'm not mistaken, the body isn't actually extended automatically. It's only its background that stretches to the viewport's full height
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# [04:06] <TabAtkins> Huh. I have no clue why Chrome is cutting off the backgrounds. Looks like a bug.
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# [04:07] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, you take back what you said before about it having to do with not respecting min-width/height:auto stuff?
# [04:07] <TabAtkins> I *think* so, yeah.
# [04:09] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, adding overflow: hidden chops it off at the background, so I guess it cuts off the actual element, not just its background. The flex-item's children just overflow.
# [04:09] <Joseph_Silber> Weird.
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# [04:10] <caitp> chrome kills the background, ff kills the padding
# [04:12] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, and IE only kills the bottom padding.
# [04:12] <caitp> that's pretty much what safari does
# [04:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, ff losing the bottom padding is a bug. fantasai and I ran into that yesterday during some impromptu testing.
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# [04:13] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, ff loses the top padding too. IE loses only the bottom
# [04:13] <Joseph_Silber> <caitp> safari looks like it's doing the most reasonable thing there, to me
# [04:13] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, still stand by that?
# [04:13] <TabAtkins> Joseph_Silber: If you use a background-image, like "radial-gradient(blue, yellow)", you can see it's not just chopping it off, it's actually calculating the background positioning area incorrectly.
# [04:13] <caitp> well, the bottom padding isn't ideal, but it looks a lot better than what FF and chrome are doing
# [04:14] <Joseph_Silber> Flexbox is one of the modern CSS features that have been around for a while. You'd think browsers would be getting their act together by now.
# [04:14] <Joseph_Silber> Every single time I try to use it, I run into a different issue/bug :(
# [04:15] <Joseph_Silber> It's a real shame, because flexbox rocks!
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# [04:16] <TabAtkins> Chrome hasn't had much flexbox maintenance for a while, which sucks.
# [04:16] <Joseph_Silber> Is the any other way (not JS) to accomplish what I'm trying to do here? Vertically center if smaller, scroll if bigger.
# [04:18] <Joseph_Silber> Is there* any other way...
# [04:19] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, And Google is saying their aim for 2014/2015 is to make the web competitive with cocoa... You'd think a decent layout engine would be a start, instead of fighting about pointer events...
# [04:19] <caitp> well, lets calm down a bit :>
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# [04:19] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, I'm in pain.
# [04:20] <Joseph_Silber> It's almost 2015, and we can't do basic layouts on the web :(
# [04:20] <Joseph_Silber> I'd forgo all of ES6/ES7 for a decent layout engine (not that the two have anything to do with each other).
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# [04:21] <caitp> well web design is basically trying to shove a cubic block into 12 different variously shaped triangular/rhombus/spherical sockets
# [04:21] <caitp> it just doen't quite fit anywhere
# [04:21] <Joseph_Silber> I mean, promises and generators with yield/await/async etc. is all cool stuff. But I can manage without them.
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# [04:21] <Joseph_Silber> Most of that stuff can be crudely done in userland. It's mostly syntactic sugar.
# [04:21] <Joseph_Silber> But as far as I'm concirned, the layout engine should be the number one priority.
# [04:22] <Joseph_Silber> Well, I guess we can't have nice things on the web :(
# [04:22] <caitp> rendering and layout is really hard :(
# [04:22] <TabAtkins> caitp: The problem here is that Chrome's flexbox impl is buggy as heck. >_<
# [04:23] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, As much pain as I feel, you should be in even more agony. They're butchering all of your hard work!
# [04:23] <caitp> yeah -- but material design will surely drive it to a fixy state
# [04:23] <Joseph_Silber> Who would have ever believed that IE would be way ahead of Chrome here?
# [04:23] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic there. If you aren't, I'm gonna slap you.
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# [04:23] <caitp> i'm almost always being sarcastic :(
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# [04:24] <Joseph_Silber> So, any workaround for me here?
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# [04:24] <caitp> hmm, haven't really used flexbox for anything other than some conference slides
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# [04:25] <caitp> so I dunno of any tips that would scale to a real app
# [04:25] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, I'm not asking about flexbox in particular. Any other tricks are cool. negative margins, transforms, or whatever you can think of.
# [04:25] <caitp> oh, probably
# [04:26] <Joseph_Silber> There's nothing in my bag of tricks that meets my needs here, but maybe you or Tab know something I dont.
# [04:27] <caitp> you could ask some of the high-profile designy people
# [04:32] <TabAtkins> So you just want one thing, which is centered vertically when its small, and scrolls when it's big?
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# [04:34] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, yep. That's actually 2 things :p
# [04:34] <Joseph_Silber> It's a pity we can't just use margin: auto for vertical positioning :(
# [04:35] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, why if fact doesn't margin: auto work for vertical positioning?
# [04:36] <TabAtkins> Because you can have multiple siblings next to each other vertically.
# [04:36] <Joseph_Silber> So let space out like flexbox does! Well...
# [04:36] <Joseph_Silber> let them* space out
# [04:37] <TabAtkins> This was pre flexbox, so that didn't occur to people. Block layout is designed for documents, not apps; vertical centering is rarely relevant for documents.
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# [04:37] <Joseph_Silber> When does horizontal centering apply to documents?
# [04:39] <Joseph_Silber> What I'm building isn't even an app... http://josephsilber.com/beta/blev-echod/public/donate
# [04:39] <caitp> look on the bright side though, as intimidating as css is, at least it's not as bad as having to define layout constraints for each face of each element on a page
# [04:40] <TabAtkins> Ohhhhhhhhh
# [04:40] <TabAtkins> I get it now.
# [04:40] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, was I not being clear enough before?
# [04:40] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, this is what we really need: http://gridstylesheets.org/guides/ccss/
# [04:40] <TabAtkins> Yes, Chrome is still messing up, due to not doing the min-height thing, but the problem is that flex items, by default, will shrink. ^_^
# [04:41] <TabAtkins> So that's what's happening for you. The item is shrinking to the size of the container's content area. it's also overflowing visibly, so the text spills out.
# [04:41] <TabAtkins> Set flex: 0 0 auto; on the item.
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# [04:42] <caitp> whats that do
# [04:42] <TabAtkins> Makes it not grow or shrink at all.
# [04:43] <TabAtkins> flex:none is the proper shorthand, use that instead.
# [04:43] <caitp> the thing that really makes css intimidating is that the property: value syntax doesn't do a very good job of communicating what properties/values actually do
# [04:43] <caitp> especially after a few drinfks
# [04:44] <TabAtkins> I wish we'd been able to come up with some way to make overflow make sense with flexbox. We couldn't, though, so the mix of overflow and growing/shrinking is always confusing.
# [04:44] <TabAtkins> caitp: Try doing web design while sober, it helps.
# [04:44] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, It ends up chopping off the top when it's bigger than the container: http://josephsilber.com/beta/blev-echod/public/donate
# [04:44] <caitp> we usually hire outside contractors to do that stuff
# [04:44] <caitp> it makes everyone happier
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# [04:45] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, you don't see it in that pen because it has repeating text
# [04:45] <TabAtkins> Joseph_Silber: Yeah, that's why we added the true/safe keywords in the Align spec. Which nobody's implemented quite yet. :/
# [04:45] <TabAtkins> Flexbox does "true" centering by default, so overflow goes off both sides, and can go into the unscrollable area.
# [04:46] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, IE doesn't chop it off at the top. Only Chrome and FF.
# [04:46] <TabAtkins> Chrome and FF are doing it right.
# [04:46] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, I don't understand what you just said. Care to elaborate?
# [04:46] <caitp> have you considered using table layout?
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# [04:46] <caitp> since you can vertically center contents of table cells
# [04:46] <Joseph_Silber> about the true/safe keywords
# [04:46] <TabAtkins> The item is centered. Like, *actually* centered. its middle is placed right in the middle of the container.
# [04:47] <TabAtkins> If it's bigger thant he container, it thus extends out both the top and bottom.
# [04:47] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, I get that. But then why does the parent scroll?
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# [04:47] <TabAtkins> Because there's no way to make <body> not scroll when things overflow?
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# [04:48] <TabAtkins> (I was using a radial gradient background, which makes sizing and alignment issues very obvious when debugging.)
# [04:49] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, I reached for display: table-cell first. But that's not a block element. And absolutely positioning it removes the table-cell display type
# [04:49] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, so what are the trrue/safe keywords?
# [04:50] <TabAtkins> it lets you swap between the "true" centering, and "safe" centering. Safe centering prevents it from overflowing off the top/left.
# [04:50] <TabAtkins> It basically makes it start align if it's larger than the container.
# [04:50] <TabAtkins> (Same applies to "end" aligning.)
# [04:50] <Joseph_Silber> So basically I'm screwed :(
# [04:50] <TabAtkins> Yup.
# [04:50] <Joseph_Silber> And there is the state of CSS right there for you
# [04:51] <caitp> maybe redoing the app with flash/shumway would do it right
# [04:51] <TabAtkins> This isn't bugs, it's just specs that haven't been implemented yet.
# [04:51] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, what's the property name there? Who's value would be set to "safe"?
# [04:52] <TabAtkins> justify-content: center safe;
# [04:52] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, so you're saying that IE doing what I want is a bug O_o
# [04:52] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [04:52] <Joseph_Silber> All hail for IE
# [04:52] <TabAtkins> Until you want true centering, then you'll be cursing it.
# [04:53] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, Can't think of a scenario right now. Got one?
# [04:54] <Joseph_Silber> If I want true centering, I can just use margin-top: 50%; transform: translateY(-50%);
# [04:54] <Joseph_Silber> Hacky, but get's the job done.
# [04:54] <Joseph_Silber> Which is sadly 95% of CSS code I've ever written.
# [04:54] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, duh, man I'm dumb. Sorry, I'm in the throes of a cold right now.
# [04:55] <TabAtkins> You can use margin centering to get safe alignment for now.
# [04:55] <Joseph_Silber> Whoops. Another reversal?
# [04:55] <TabAtkins> Example: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#justify-content-property
# [04:55] <Joseph_Silber> Oh right!
# [04:55] <Joseph_Silber> How did I forget that?
# [04:55] <Joseph_Silber> Hang on. Trying it now.
# [04:55] <TabAtkins> But yeah, just set margin: auto 0; on the item and it should work.
# [04:56] <TabAtkins> yeah, perfect.
# [04:56] <TabAtkins> Take your original pen, set "margin: auto 0; flex: none;" on the item, and remove the 'justify-content' from the container. Works a charm.
# [04:57] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, you are my hero!! http://josephsilber.com/beta/blev-echod/public/donate
# [04:58] <Joseph_Silber> Damn! I've used flex margin centering so many times. How did I forget about it now?
# [04:58] <Joseph_Silber> We were even discussing it before. Wow!
# [05:00] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, thanks for your time :D
# [05:00] <TabAtkins> np
# [05:00] <TabAtkins> But take a look at that example I gave you for why true centering is useful. ^_^
# [05:00] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, missed it. Where is it?
# [05:00] <TabAtkins> Five minutes ago.
# [05:00] <Joseph_Silber> Here? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#justify-content-property
# [05:00] <TabAtkins> yeah.
# [05:01] <TabAtkins> scroll up
# [05:01] <TabAtkins> That's the closest anchor, but you want example 10, at the end of the previous section.
# [05:01] <TabAtkins> sorry, example 11
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# [05:02] <Joseph_Silber> I see. That can indeed be achieved with a left margin and negative translate, but this is a proper way of doing it.
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# [05:02] <Joseph_Silber> Cool stuff, if only they could be used.
# [05:03] <Joseph_Silber> How long's it been since the newest version of flexbox was specced out?
# [05:03] <TabAtkins> They can be! The example is just showing align-self/justify-content vs margins. That works today.
# [05:03] <TabAtkins> (Except, who knows, maybe not perfectly in some version of IE.)
# [05:03] <TabAtkins> The last big tweak we made was a few months ago.
# [05:04] <TabAtkins> Also: dude, use <img srcset> for those backgrounds. ^_^
# [05:05] <caitp> is it a runtime error, or infinite recursion?
# [05:05] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, actually, using the vertical margin auto causes IE and FF to chop off the container's bottom padding. Only Chrome properly maintains it.
# [05:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's an error unrelated to Flexbox. I think it's an older unspecified behavior.
# [05:05] <Joseph_Silber> For my needs, this is good enough. But... huh... I'm getting tired of all this...
# [05:05] <TabAtkins> fantasai and I were just discussing it yesterday. Since Chrome's behavior is better, and clearly web compatible, we'll figure out where to spec it.
# [05:06] <Joseph_Silber> Where else (outside of flexbox) would you run into this?
# [05:06] <TabAtkins> I dunno, I can't think right now.
# [05:06] <Joseph_Silber> k. Thanks for the help.
# [05:07] <TabAtkins> Instead of container padding, another option is a spacer element of the height you want. Just empty divs placed before/after the content.
# [05:07] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, that would mess with the margin
# [05:07] <TabAtkins> That should do the job consistently across browsers.
# [05:07] <Joseph_Silber> Unless you mean within the flex-item
# [05:07] <TabAtkins> I mean siblings of the flex item.
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# [05:08] <Joseph_Silber> Hmmm. So two spacers.
# [05:08] <Joseph_Silber> Ugh
# [05:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [05:08] <TabAtkins> It's not pretty, but it wont' get chopped by FF. ^_^
# [05:08] <Joseph_Silber> I don't care so much. If it were getting chopped off at the top it would be a show stopper. But the bottom is not enough to force me into spacers
# [05:09] <Joseph_Silber> I've had enough of the spacer gifs to last me a couple of lifetimes.
# [05:09] <Joseph_Silber> Spacer are the root of all evil.
# [05:09] <Joseph_Silber> spacers*
# [05:09] <caitp> its just one piece of the layout rube goldberg machine
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# [05:11] <TabAtkins> Eh, I'm not gonna shame people for doing what's needed, even when it's ugly.
# [05:12] <Joseph_Silber> I develop for the web exclusively. I'd be really curious to know if native Windows/iOS/Mac/Andoid developers also want to tear their hair out every time they do layout
# [05:12] <caitp> they do
# [05:12] <caitp> people invent tools to make layout easy
# [05:12] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, shame? No! I'm talking about me personally. *I* hate them, s *I* don't want them in my projects.
# [05:12] <caitp> and even the tools make them want to tear their hair out
# [05:12] <Joseph_Silber> Unless *absolutely* necessary.
# [05:13] <TabAtkins> There has never been a layout system invented that wasn't terrible, as far as I can tell.
# [05:13] <TabAtkins> The only thing that's good is abspos when you can control the exact size of the screen.
# [05:13] <TabAtkins> Because it's simple.
# [05:14] <Joseph_Silber> Why is that though? We can send rockets to the moon. We can land on comets. Hell, we can do all this: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30415007
# [05:14] <Joseph_Silber> But we can't have proper layout!
# [05:14] <TabAtkins> Because rockets are easy, they're just physics.
# [05:14] <TabAtkins> We're trying to do psychology here.
# [05:14] <Joseph_Silber> ha
# [05:14] <TabAtkins> Also: people are stupid. The two of us spent 20 minutes noodling on a super-simple problem that we both knew the correct answer to.
# [05:15] <caitp> to be fair, the answer was pretty cryptic
# [05:15] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, that's not an excuse. The fact that there's a *different* way of doing it is no excuse for it being counter-intuitive.
# [05:15] <TabAtkins> It's really not. It's one of the first things you learn when you start doing flexbox.
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# [05:16] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, yeah. margin auto spacing is elementary flexbox.
# [05:16] <TabAtkins> Dunno which part you're calling counter-intuitive.
# [05:16] <Joseph_Silber> "true" centering
# [05:17] <caitp> flexbox itself is pretty cryptic, built ontop of something else which is pretty cryptic, built ontop of layout engines which operate differently and are all slightly broken in different ways at different times
# [05:17] <caitp> you aren't gonna find easy answers in web layout that work all the time
# [05:17] <Joseph_Silber> caitp, I beg to differ. Flexbox happens to be one of the specs that actually make a lot of sense. It's just terribly bug-ridden.
# [05:17] <caitp> see part 3)
# [05:17] <Joseph_Silber> ?
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# [05:18] <Joseph_Silber> That's an implementation detail
# [05:18] <TabAtkins> Joseph_Silber: That's not counter-intuitive either. It centers in the most obvious, natural way. When you're using flexbox for menu bars or the like, and do "align-self: center", "true" centering is precisely what you want a lot of the time.
# [05:18] <TabAtkins> The fact that you have to switch to margin centering to get safe behavior is counter-intuitive, but that's why we fixed it. the fix just isn't implemented yet.
# [05:19] <Joseph_Silber> Maybe. I was just thinking of regular block layout with margin: 0 auto;
# [05:19] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, I guess once you know all that. Yeah maybe.
# [05:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that example is why we made margin centering safe in Flexbox, too.
# [05:19] <Joseph_Silber> I guess this is what you meant with "doing psychology".
# [05:19] <TabAtkins> Joseph_Silber: The problem is that Flexbox is used for lots of things, and there's no such thing as a universal default. We make the best decisions we can on the default behavior, but it will always sometimes be confusing.
# [05:19] <TabAtkins> Yup.
# [05:20] <TabAtkins> It's all about interaction design and trying to predict usage patterns.
# [05:20] <Joseph_Silber> Arguably, rockets also have to be intuitive. Otherwise the human aboard would crash it.
# [05:20] <Joseph_Silber> humans*
# [05:20] <TabAtkins> We haven't put humans on rockets in decades. Problem solved. ^_^
# [05:21] <Joseph_Silber> Spaceships then?
# [05:21] <Joseph_Silber> About 200 people just bought a one way ticket to Mars.
# [05:21] <TabAtkins> Well, they hope.
# [05:21] <Joseph_Silber> I guess people *are* stupid.
# [05:21] <TabAtkins> ^_^
# [05:22] <Joseph_Silber> At this rate, who knows when grid layout will be usable?
# [05:22] <Joseph_Silber> 2024?
# [05:23] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, BTW, I really enjoyed your Metric Time post.
# [05:23] <TabAtkins> Haha, thanks.
# [05:23] <Joseph_Silber> You signed off with fuck timezones.
# [05:24] <TabAtkins> It was a vage callout to "And in conclusion, Carthage must be destroyed."
# [05:24] <Joseph_Silber> What's interesting is that with all the discussion about daylight savings time, I haven't ever heard anybody propose having univarsal time, and just shift our schedules
# [05:24] <Joseph_Silber> Who says school has to start at the same time throughout the year?
# [05:24] <TabAtkins> I've been in favor of putting everyone on GMT for years.
# [05:25] <Joseph_Silber> Yeah. Who cares if people get into work at 3PM in Sydney. At least I know when 3PM is.
# [05:25] <caitp> timezones are fun, because then it's like time travel when you fly back from SEA
# [05:25] <caitp> why would you ever want to get rid of that novelty
# [05:25] <Joseph_Silber> Tab wants to steal the "Around the world in 80 days" story from us.
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# [05:32] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, btw, before you said I should be using img srcset for the backgrounds. Did you just mean so that I don't serve such huge files to mobile, or something else?
# [05:32] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's why.
# [05:32] <Joseph_Silber> srcset has its own share of problems.
# [05:32] <TabAtkins> Just some support issues, which you can work around with Picturefill.
# [05:33] <Joseph_Silber> No. Once an image has been downloaded, it doesn't redownload it if the viewport size changes.
# [05:33] <Joseph_Silber> That's a dealbreaker for me :(
# [05:34] <TabAtkins> So you'll just always send the largest possible image, just in case they started loading the page in a small window and then maximized it later?
# [05:34] <Joseph_Silber> I know. I've used it extensively on this site: https://bp.boneiauction.org/products/14
# [05:34] <caitp> desktop browsers are a sizeable and very important chunk of any application's traffic
# [05:34] <caitp> no need to optimize for phones and tablets
# [05:35] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, I didn't say that. Was just pointing out that even srcset is broken.
# [05:35] <TabAtkins> caitp: You really need to be better with your use of the <sarcasm> tag.
# [05:35] <TabAtkins> It's not broken, though. ^_^
# [05:35] <Joseph_Silber> The spec has nothing to say about it
# [05:35] <Joseph_Silber> So it can't be "broken"
# [05:35] <Joseph_Silber> But it's broken for me is what I meant.
# [05:35] <TabAtkins> No, it does. It defines exactly when to reevaluate the list of soures.
# [05:35] <caitp> sarcasm can be inferred from the tone of voice or the choice of words, tab
# [05:36] <caitp> for instance, if it sounds like I'm making an authoritative factual statement, it's probably sarcasm
# [05:36] <TabAtkins> it does so, for example, if you're using <picture> and you have MQs that depend on screen size.
# [05:36] <Joseph_Silber> Only for picture.
# [05:36] <TabAtkins> It just doesn't so to pick a new image from a single srcset.
# [05:37] <Joseph_Silber> The spec considers srcset to be like a hint. It leaves it to the user agent to decide.
# [05:39] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/230
# [05:40] <jamesr__> quick! how do i randomly pick N lines out of a file?
# [05:40] <caitp> where N is random?
# [05:41] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, also, on this site it doesn't matter, because the mobile design (not yet done) won't have those background images anyhow. That's part of the reason they're done with a background image instead of a real image.
# [05:41] <TabAtkins> jamesr__: Put it in your favorite text editor with a randomize lines function (such as Sublime). Randomize. Pick the first N lines.
# [05:42] <Joseph_Silber> TabAtkins, another reason is that there's no way (in CSS) to achieve with a real image what I get with background-size: cover
# [05:42] <TabAtkins> Right.
# [05:42] <TabAtkins> jamesr__: Edit->Permute Lines->Shuffle
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# [05:43] <TabAtkins> jamesr__: Apparently the shuf command-line utility also does what you need.
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# [06:13] <jamesr__> yeah, 'shuf' and 'sort -R' would work but neither exist on my mac
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# [16:31] <MikeSmith> botie, inform annevk one of my favorite W3C pages is http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/UU.html
# [16:31] <botie> will do
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# [16:41] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: what's this about you being deputy director? since when? WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?
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# [16:44] <darobin> gsnedders: you missed the memes from TPAC 2013 :)
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# [16:51] <gsnedders> hah, that long ago? wow.
# [16:52] <darobin> gsnedders: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/66947507485/mike-smith-gets-to-be-director-for-the-eme-people
# [16:52] <darobin> (around the same time)
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# [17:00] <wilhelm> I'd vote for MikeSmith as heir apparent director.
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# [17:19] <gsnedders> So what does MikeSmith even do? go around pretending to be the second coming of timbl?
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> dunno yet
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> so far it's just the gun and holster
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> is all I got yet
# [17:20] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll get some more stuff later
# [17:20] <gsnedders> He's got the name, he's got the title, he's got the gun, he's got the holster. That and a whole lotta nothing.
# [17:20] <MikeSmith> it's more gun and more holster than I had before
# [17:20] <MikeSmith> so I claim progress
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# [17:22] <gsnedders> progress or Progress?
# [17:23] <gsnedders> or Process?
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# [17:37] <MikeSmith> evolution
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> the process of
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> mutation
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# [17:45] <botie> annevk, at 2014-12-17 15:30 UTC, MikeSmith said: one of my favorite W3C pages is http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/UU.html
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# [17:51] <MikeSmith> 7th Principle: Respect for the Interdependent Web of All Existence of Which We Are a Part
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# [17:55] <MikeSmith> Nowadays, even Web developments happen because of our gut feeling that certain properties of the Web will lead to great things... full of hope, and the fact that the Web happens is an example of a dream coming true and an encouragement to all who hope.
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# [18:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: so in the beginning IETF is compared to UU, but Tim left the IETF to form the W3C, I'm not sure what to make of that
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: I don't think Tim really left the IETF to form the W3C
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> at least not in accounts I remember
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> don't think he tells it that way in his book
# [18:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: something made him form the W3C and something made the IETF and W3C divide topics in some way
# [18:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: this is what I picked up somewhere, I guess as with URLs there's not really a canonical history available
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# [18:09] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [23:21] * Quits: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [23:31] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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# [23:39] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@mtl93-18-78-208-93-24.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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# [23:54] * Quits: espadrine (~ttyl@dan75-7-88-166-187-54.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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# Session Close: Thu Dec 18 00:00:00 2014

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