/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-12-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 24 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:38] <zewt> chrome using 8 gigs of memory; i guess browsers these days assume that browsing is the only thing anyone does, so they can take over the entire machine
  13. # [00:39] <zewt> i'm seriously having to look at upgrading to beyond 16 gb because that's just not enough with browsers today
  14. # [00:43] <jgraham> Chrome isn't exactly noted for being memory efficient in the many-tabs case
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  16. # [00:44] <zewt> that's sort of above and beyond
  17. # [00:46] <jgraham> Well it very much depends what you are doing with it
  18. # [00:46] <jgraham> If you just opened an 8Gb image file, it seems entirely reasonable
  19. # [00:47] <jgraham> (OK, that's a silly example, but the point stands that saying "my browser is using X amount of memory is just as silly as saying "my desktop environment including all applications is using X amoutn of memory, but not noting what the applications are)
  20. # [00:47] <jgraham> That sentence needed some closing quotes
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  24. # [00:49] <zewt> not really; a single tab isn't analogous to a single application, having 50 tabs open is nothing like having 50 applications open
  25. # [00:51] <caitp-> that doesn't mean 1 tab === adobe premiere or something
  26. # [00:51] <zewt> it seems like chrome doesn't even do things like unload images from tabs you haven't viewed in a while (not that I've poked at the internals)
  27. # [00:52] <jgraham> A single tab seems very like a single application
  28. # [00:52] <jgraham> e.g. a single tab containing gmail seems a lot like a single client-side mail application
  29. # [00:54] <zewt> most pages aren't gmail
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  33. # [00:57] <zewt> i'd prefer to use firefox anyway (has its own problem, but OOM'ing my system isn't one of them), but it started choking hard after some update; i do need to go back and look at that again
  34. # [00:57] <zewt> s/problem/problems/
  35. # [00:57] <jgraham> Indeed. Similarly most applications aren't (insert your favourite mail client here)
  36. # [00:57] <zewt> most tabs aren't like an application at all, they're like a complex document
  37. # [00:58] <zewt> and more to the point, it's the browser's job to keep the memory usage (along with all of the other messes) of the web in check
  38. # [01:01] <jgraham> Whilst I don't doubt that browsers could do better in many situations, I still maintain that complaining on the basis of some notional idea that web-pages are generally simple things that should never use much memory doesn't make any sense
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  40. # [01:03] <zewt> running out of memory because of a browser is very new; never had anything close to this problem before maybe a year ago
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  46. # [01:13] <caitp-> safari may be slow, but it does seem to do a pretty good job of keeping memory in check
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  57. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> caitp-: Re "to pilgrim", https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/nzRY-h_-_ig/vsNKAtkRIpIJ
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  73. # [03:29] <hgl> TabAtkins, sorry for the late reply. if advanced transition is overthinking, does it mean the spec isn't interested in provide a solution for a problem like http://jsbin.com/layuhadiku/1/edit?html,css,output ?
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  77. # [03:47] <hgl> a quick question: when the spec says node.append(nodes), does it mean node.append(...nodes) or nodes is just a regular array?
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  80. # [03:49] <hgl> nm, IDL covered it.
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  100. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> roc: has ruby support landed already under a flag?
  101. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> in gecko I mean
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  103. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah, I see dbaron's comment at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=256274#c204
  104. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> layout.css.ruby.enabled I guess
  105. # [05:52] <dbaron> MikeSmith, Xidorn has been working on it lately
  106. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> oh hey dbaron
  107. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> cool, thanks for the info
  108. # [05:52] <dbaron> MikeSmith, we were just quibbling over getting the UA stylesheet bits landed today
  109. # [05:52] <dbaron> MikeSmith, so that might land within a few days, which would make the pref more useful, even though it's still in progress
  110. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> dbaron: very nice
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  162. # [10:32] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  212. # [14:26] <rubys> annevk: you around?
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  216. # [14:53] <rubys> annevk: when you get back, I'd be interested in any thoughts you may have on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27687
  217. # [14:53] <rubys> annevk: I
  218. # [14:53] <rubys> ... 'm in favor; and since there is clearly no urgency, I'd be inclined to only implement it in the rewritten parser
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  220. # [14:56] <annevk> rubys: you mean making "http://s/:test" non-conforming? And "http://s/ test "?
  221. # [14:56] <rubys> yes to the first. the second is " http://example.com/ "
  222. # [14:58] <rubys> more background: http://intertwingly.net/tmp/urlvsuri.html
  223. # [14:58] <annevk> ":" is not excluded from path segments per the specification
  224. # [14:58] <rubys> "the specification"? Which one (URL or RFC 3986)?
  225. # [14:58] <annevk> URL
  226. # [14:59] <rubys> I'm not suggesting changing the output of parse, simply indicating a conformance error.
  227. # [14:59] <annevk> That would also require changing the definition of path segments
  228. # [15:00] <annevk> And looking at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.3 URIs can mostly contain a colon there just fine
  229. # [15:01] <rubys> re: dfn of path segments: I don't follow. Adding "if c is ':' then parse error" to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#relative-path-start-state
  230. # [15:01] <annevk> That would make the parser inconsistent with how path segments are defined
  231. # [15:02] <rubys> ok, lets back up. First: segment-nz-nc explicitly excludes colons.
  232. # [15:03] <rubys> this is referenced by path-noscheme
  233. # [15:04] <rubys> Another way to address this would be to fix: https://specs.webplatform.org/url/webspecs/develop/#relative-url
  234. # [15:04] <annevk> Yeah, that's for a case like <a href="s:test"> as due to the colon it can no longer be a relative reference
  235. # [15:04] <rubys> no, it explicitly is only the first character
  236. # [15:05] <annevk> no
  237. # [15:05] <annevk> 'non-zero-length segment without any colon ":"'
  238. # [15:06] <rubys> ok
  239. # [15:06] <rubys> path-noscheme = segment-nz-nc *( "/" segment )
  240. # [15:06] <rubys> so this bizarre rule only applies to the first segment
  241. # [15:06] <annevk> yes, because of what I just said
  242. # [15:06] <annevk> it's for relative references only
  243. # [15:07] <annevk> so you can disambiguate those from URIs
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  246. # [15:08] <rubys> going back to https://specs.webplatform.org/url/webspecs/develop/#relative-url, this check could be added to the last path.
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  248. # [15:09] <rubys> all other cases have either a colon or a slash before the path
  249. # [15:10] <annevk> if you have this top down matching that seems redundant
  250. # [15:11] <rubys> it clearly isn't, as ":a" doesn't produce a conformance error.
  251. # [15:13] <rubys> I guess another way to fix this would be to allow scheme to return zero length strings, but produce a conformance error along the way. See https://specs.webplatform.org/url/webspecs/develop/#scheme
  252. # [15:16] <rubys> @: would, however, be considered a conforming relative URL but not a valid URI
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  255. # [15:19] <gavinc> rubys: small confusion "urltestdata.txt has the following tests" ... which tests?
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  257. # [15:23] <rubys> gavinc: here is urltestdata.txt: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/url/urltestdata.txt
  258. # [15:23] <gavinc> So ALL of those?
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  260. # [15:24] <rubys> gavinc: I'm confused about what you are confused about. :-)
  261. # [15:24] <rubys> Here's the results of the tests: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/interop/test-results/
  262. # [15:25] <rubys> looking at those results, there are some conforming URLs that are not valid URIs. I think that should be fixed.
  263. # [15:25] <rubys> looking deeper, I came up with: http://intertwingly.net/tmp/urlvsuri.html
  264. # [15:26] <gavinc> Okay, sorry, the bug just didn't say which of the tests in urltestdata.txt were being talked about
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  266. # [15:27] <rubys> gavinc: ah. that is indeed confusing
  267. # [15:27] <rubys> I meant to enumerate them
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  269. # [15:31] <rubys> comment added to the bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27687#c1
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  271. # [15:32] <gavinc> annevk's solution doesn't seem to cover " foo.com " from that list nor 100% whitespace like " \t" ?
  272. # [15:33] <rubys> we didn't discuss that. I'm proposing adding a check to https://specs.webplatform.org/url/webspecs/develop/#concept-basic-url-parser
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  274. # [15:36] <gavinc> mm, so by that wouldn't " foo.com " just become "foo.com" relative to any currently set base?
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  276. # [15:37] <gavinc> and " \t" become the same as an empty "", and thus again resolve relative to the current base?
  277. # [15:37] <rubys> gavinc: yes. want to play with a few tests? Try: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/reference-implementation/liveview2.html#about%3A
  278. # [15:37] <rubys> also, some tests have already been defined with test results captured for a variety of user agents: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/interop/test-results/
  279. # [15:39] * gavinc reads more
  280. # [15:43] <gavinc> "A parse error if leading/trailing white space is present in" seems a bit, mmm, over zealous? Given that none of the implementations today consider " foo.com " to be a parse error
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  282. # [15:44] <rubys> a conformance error. See https://specs.webplatform.org/url/webspecs/develop/#url-writing
  283. # [15:47] <gavinc> ah, so not parse exception, so go ahead and keep parsing
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  318. # [18:13] <rubys> *sigh* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/2014Dec/0087.html
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  392. # [23:05] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-051-253.nc.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  393. # [23:07] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  394. # [23:10] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@151.sub-70-209-233.myvzw.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  395. # [23:11] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  396. # [23:18] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  397. # [23:18] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@2600:1012:b10e:1e4e:a143:34bf:992d:29e6)
  398. # [23:21] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-051-253.nc.res.rr.com)
  399. # [23:25] * Quits: Mso150_f_x (~ctlM@80.83.239.92) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  400. # [23:28] * Quits: CvP (CvP@113.11.53.87) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  401. # [23:41] * Joins: cemerick (~cemerick@c-24-34-140-98.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  402. # [23:44] * Joins: wolfie (~wolfie@pool-96-231-145-69.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  403. # [23:44] * wolfie is now known as Guest63384
  404. # [23:52] * Quits: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  405. # [23:53] * Quits: cemerick (~cemerick@c-24-34-140-98.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  406. # [23:55] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@199.201.64.2) (Quit: sys.exit(0) # computer went to sleep)
  407. # [23:55] * Quits: Lachy_ (~Lachy@cm-84.215.179.176.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  408. # [23:58] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@pool-72-94-213-135.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  409. # Session Close: Thu Dec 25 00:00:00 2014

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