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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 12 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  108. # [09:02] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: thanks. I posted http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2015Jan/0016.html
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  156. # [10:58] <annevk> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2015/01/11/URL-Work-Status is somewhat hard to grok. The barrier to entry at the WHATWG is too high, yet everywhere else he hits a door.
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  161. # [11:13] <hemanth> 'http://f: 21 / b ? d # e' interesting
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  164. # [11:17] * hemanth tried to reflect on ES6 Reflect API http://h3manth.com/new/blog/2015/es6-reflect-api/
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  174. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://twitter.com/ttepasse/status/554341595185946625
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  176. # [11:58] <annevk> "fora@annevankesteren.nl" that's a long time ago
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  178. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> 2005 it seems
  179. # [12:01] <annevk> That was at Opera, around the time of Opera's 10 year anniversary and around the time of me getting hired for a longer period
  180. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> then before I started at Opera
  181. # [12:05] <annevk> I guess I switched to using @opera.com a little later, when everything was more permanent
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  206. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> https://community.rapid7.com/community/metasploit/blog/2015/01/11/google-no-longer-provides-patches-for-webview-jelly-bean-and-prior
  207. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> seems pretty surprising if true
  208. # [14:38] <caitp> it's pretty sad for people who are contract-tied to their old phones and can't upgrade yet, or who are financially unable to upgrade
  209. # [14:38] <caitp> but surprising?
  210. # [14:51] <annevk> Hmm, I wanted to write about custom elements, but I think I should first explain web platform objects... Turtles, meh
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  309. # [18:17] <wanderview> JakeA: annevk: if content runs window.caches.addAll(requests)... should those be intercepted by ServiceWorker? Does Cache add()/addAll() implicitly get the skip service worker flag?
  310. # [18:18] <annevk> wanderview: I feel like they should go through the worker
  311. # [18:18] <wanderview> annevk: unless initiated by the ServiceWorker?
  312. # [18:19] <annevk> wanderview: fetches from a service worker can never go through that service worker
  313. # [18:19] <annevk> (nor any other one at the moment, but it seems like that might change going forward)
  314. # [18:20] <annevk> wanderview: that should happen automatically in Fetch due to the associated client of the request
  315. # [18:21] <wanderview> annevk: yea... its a quirk of our cache add/addAll implementation that we don't get it automatically... Cache is using a lower level API
  316. # [18:23] <JakeA> wanderview: agree with annevk
  317. # [18:23] <wanderview> thanks
  318. # [18:24] <wanderview> so we can have window cache.addAll()... go to SW which then does more Cache operations
  319. # [18:24] <wanderview> nested within the cache.addAll()
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  321. # [18:27] <annevk> turtles!
  322. # [18:28] <annevk> but yeah, that might get hairy quickly
  323. # [18:29] <annevk> need some kind of atomicity otherwise you get races
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  326. # [18:30] <wanderview> I think this probably is mostly ok since the spec is written async with many operations in flight already
  327. # [18:31] <wanderview> its kind of tricky for the gecko implementation, though...
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  330. # [18:36] <JakeA> annevk: if a call results in an error that isn't speced (perhaps implementation specific), should the browser throw the most appropriate error, or its this a signal that the implementation or the spec is wrong?
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  332. # [18:37] <JakeA> annevk: I guess what I'm asking is: are there specs that loosely define throwing like "if an error occurs, throw an appropriate error"
  333. # [18:37] <JakeA> (feels like insufficient specing to me)
  334. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> There's lots of insufficient speccing
  335. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Like HTML "if a network error occurred"
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  337. # [18:40] <jgraham> The bit after the comma seems particularly poor though
  338. # [18:40] <jgraham> The nature of the error shouldn't be left to chance^Wdevelopers
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  342. # [18:47] <annevk> JakeA: that would be a bug in the spec
  343. # [18:48] <annevk> JakeA: the only thing we're loose on is the error message, as that can be localized and such
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  349. # [18:55] <JakeA> annevk: thought so, ta
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  368. # [19:33] <jgraham> Does anyone know what happened to the testharness.js-based Chromium Wervice-Worker tests?
  369. # [19:33] <jgraham> Did they ever get submitted to wpt?
  370. # [19:34] <jgraham> Probably the ones at https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/LayoutTests/http/tests/serviceworker/&q=service-worker&sq=package:chromium&type=cs
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  372. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> Speaking of chromium tests
  373. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> jsbell, any news on TextEncoder/Decoder?
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  376. # [19:38] <jgraham> Seems like jsbell might also be able to help with my question
  377. # [19:39] * Ms2ger approaches jsbell from behind
  378. # [19:39] <jsbell> Ms2ger: thanks for the ping... I started to move some of them my local w-p-t repo before the holidays, need to get back to it.
  379. # [19:39] <jsbell> ... into my local...
  380. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> Nice to hear that
  381. # [19:39] <jsbell> jgraham: ??
  382. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> <jgraham> Does anyone know what happened to the testharness.js-based Chromium Wervice-Worker tests?
  383. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> <jgraham> Did they ever get submitted to wpt?
  384. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> <jgraham> Probably the ones at https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/LayoutTests/http/tests/serviceworker/&q=service-worker&sq=package:chromium&type=cs
  385. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> jsbell, fwiw, smaller PRs tend to get landed quicker, so you don't necessarily need to wait until you've got them all
  386. # [19:40] <jsbell> not submitted yet, we still plan to
  387. # [19:41] <jgraham> jsbell: If you can get them submitted we can get them reviewed (although technically that's not needed if you are confident they're good to go)
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  389. # [19:41] <jgraham> jsbell: The Mozilla implementors would like to run them
  390. # [19:42] <jsbell> jgraham: I'll chat w/ the team tonight, see if anyone can take it on. (new quarter, new priorities, yadda yadda)
  391. # [19:42] <jgraham> Yup
  392. # [19:42] <jgraham> If you need any help let me know
  393. # [19:43] <jgraham> Like, if it's as simple as "copy the files from the Chromium tree into the wpt tree" I can just do that for you ;)
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  398. # [19:52] <jsbell> jgraham: you're welcome to give it a shot. The big issue is likely to be that we don't run them w/ serve.py so many likely have assumptions about our test server config that'll need correcting
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  400. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> jsbell, any news on moving to wptrunner?
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  403. # [19:54] <jsbell> ms2ger: no news
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  407. # [19:55] <jgraham> jsbell: OK, great. Like I say we have interest in running these which I assume (optimistically!) means we have resources to make it happen ;)
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  410. # [19:57] <wanderview> yea... the tests were helpful when I ran them manually... it would be nice to get them imported before we ship
  411. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> wanderview, put it on your todo list :)
  412. # [19:59] <wanderview> Ms2ger: the last time I checked the blink folks were waiting on PRs in review with jgraham... once they uplift them to the wpt repo I don't think there is much for us to do besides pull them in
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  415. # [19:59] <wanderview> it seems we're past that point now, though... so hopefully they can get uplifted
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  417. # [20:00] <jgraham> Right, the testharness.js changes landed
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  420. # [20:04] <wanderview> cool
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  457. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> annevk: The mutation events crashers were about people using nodes exposed by mutation events (particularly removal events) and making more mutations in/with them - they were incompletely sterilized and still thought they had some sort of connection to the DOM, which causes inconsistent state when mutating, and eventually hits crashes.
  458. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> It's like the problems with the instance tree in <use> - nothing inherent to the tech, but persistent crashiness due to human frailty in coding, and that just being something which regularly exposed such problems.
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  461. # [21:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: there are some concerns around synchronous mutation that would be relevant here
  462. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: Likely, yeah. People could be hanging onto references to the old version of the element.
  463. # [21:09] <annevk> well there's no old version in solution 1)
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  465. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but there's all the ordering and raciness there. :(
  466. # [21:10] <annevk> why?
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  468. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> I explained in the email, I thought. Is it still unclear?
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  470. # [21:12] <annevk> yeah I guess, not sure it's insurmountable
  471. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> It's not insurmountable, it's just a persistent annoyance. Upgrading makes things more declarative, which matches the spirit of using HTML better.
  472. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> If you could only use custom elements by constructing them, it wouldn't matter - the ordering constraints of JS would make the right behavior fall out.
  473. # [21:14] <annevk> if you ensure your dependencies are loaded you can have constructors during parsing
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  475. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> "if you ensure" is the hard part. It means, for example, that you need to load your element definitions in a sync script block before your markup.
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  552. # [21:56] <Hixie> annevk: lol. if the barrier to entry is too high when the barrier is one's own ability to do the work...
  553. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> mailing list is a support forum
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  564. # [22:30] * jgraham wonders how long checking out blink is supposed to take
  565. # [22:30] <miketaylr> multiple hours, last i did that
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  568. # [22:34] <roc> TabAtkins: FWIW the problems Blink had with <use> may have been Blink's approach, not inherent. We always had a simple cloning strategy and didn't seem to have these problems
  569. # [22:35] <roc> mutation events, on the other hand .... blergh
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  571. # [22:35] <jgraham> miketaylr: I'm up to 1:45 and no end in sight
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  573. # [22:36] <jgraham> But my internal monolouge of the process has started to sound like the narration of a castaway
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  576. # [22:37] <miketaylr> heh
  577. # [22:37] * _pdr_ is now known as pdr
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  579. # [22:37] * Quits: pdr (sid7901@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bcqceyztsvtlucwy) (Changing host)
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  581. # [22:37] <miketaylr> be sure to find a volley ball to keep you company
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  619. # [23:32] <jgraham> Hmm, so 2.5 hours in chromium checkout failed due to low disk space
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  623. # [23:34] <Ms2ger> It's what, 50GB?
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  627. # [23:39] <jgraham> I hope not
  628. # [23:39] <jgraham> If it is then even deleting B2G isn't going to help
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  630. # [23:40] <Ms2ger> "Either way, fetch checks out more than 10GB"
  631. # [23:40] <Ms2ger> Sounds like I overestimated a bit
  632. # [23:41] <jgraham> I think I had 16 when it stopped
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  634. # [23:41] <jgraham> B2G is 26, but I think that's almost all android
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  644. # Session Close: Tue Jan 13 00:00:00 2015

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