/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-01-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 21 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:17] <Hixie> annevk: microtasks also run end-of-script
  11. # [00:17] <Hixie> annevk: are you sure they wouldn't run between two event listeners here?
  12. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> They should run between event listeners, I think. (I could easily be wrong.)
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  16. # [00:38] * smaug____ is missing the context, but if there isn't any other script on stack when event listeners run, microtasks run between them
  17. # [00:39] <Hixie> right
  18. # [00:40] <Hixie> in conclusion, Domenic, resolving the promise and then firing an event is going to lead to weird behaviour
  19. # [00:40] <Domenic> yep
  20. # [00:40] <Hixie> Domenic: you might be better off resolving then queueing a task to fire the event, or resolving then running microtasks then firing the event
  21. # [00:40] <Hixie> or not firing the event at all
  22. # [00:41] <Domenic> Yeah the current plan is actually just "when p fulfills, fire an event named 'foo'"
  23. # [00:41] <Hixie> is "fulfills" defined?
  24. # [00:42] <Hixie> like, what does that mean?
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  26. # [00:43] <Domenic> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide#shorthand-reacting
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  29. # [00:50] <Hixie> i don't understand
  30. # [00:51] <Hixie> "fire an event" isn't a function
  31. # [00:51] <Hixie> you can't really define prose-given requirements in terms of javascript code
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  45. # [01:39] <terinjokes> does XHR2 no longer care about ArrayBuffers as a request body?
  46. # [01:40] <terinjokes> annevk: ^^
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  246. # [08:32] <annevk> terinjokes: sure does
  247. # [08:33] <annevk> Hixie: pretty sure, yes
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  249. # [08:33] <Hixie> why?
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  251. # [08:33] <annevk> Hixie: there's nothing about event listeners that goes back to the microtask thing, we just iterate through them synchronously and run them
  252. # [08:34] <Hixie> how do you run the callbacks?
  253. # [08:34] <annevk> Hixie: through IDL's "call ..." thingie for that
  254. # [08:34] <Hixie> http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-invoking-callback-functions ?
  255. # [08:35] <annevk> Hixie: yeah
  256. # [08:37] <Hixie> huh
  257. # [08:37] <Hixie> when did they stop calling "clean up after running a callback"?
  258. # [08:37] <annevk> Hixie: note that in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27046#c5 I asked for clarification about this since I thought I had the wrong mental model
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  260. # [08:38] <Hixie> maybe this changed at some point
  261. # [08:38] <annevk> It does seem quite weird to me to run microtasks between two registered event listeners that run in the same task
  262. # [08:38] <Hixie> i could have sworn we wanted mutation observers to run after each event listener
  263. # [08:38] <annevk> Though smaug always maintains that is the model, so maybe...
  264. # [08:38] <Hixie> at some point i thought heycam|away had webidl calling the "clean up after running a callback" logic
  265. # [08:38] <annevk> Hixie: yeah I thought so too, but then it wasn't really supported by any specification
  266. # [08:39] <Hixie> maybe bz changed it?
  267. # [08:39] <Hixie> oh well
  268. # [08:39] <Hixie> bed time for me
  269. # [08:39] <Hixie> nn
  270. # [08:40] <annevk> have a good night
  271. # [08:40] <annevk> I might try to sort it out once more if I have some time left
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  278. # [08:49] <terinjokes> annevk: i just don't see it in the version up on the site
  279. # [08:50] <annevk> terinjokes: "void send(optional (Document or BodyInit)? body = null);"
  280. # [08:50] <annevk> terinjokes: "typedef (Blob or BufferSource or FormData or URLSearchParams or USVString) BodyInit;" (if you follow the BodyInit link)
  281. # [08:51] <terinjokes> i promise you
  282. # [08:51] <annevk> terinjokes: http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#common-BufferSource (if you're curious about BufferSource and look into IDL to find out)
  283. # [08:51] <terinjokes> that does not look like a link to me
  284. # [08:52] <annevk> terinjokes: you need to hover the IDL block these days I think, we made the styles a bit less distracting for when you're just reading
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  287. # [09:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: ta, done
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  320. # [09:58] <annevk> Does anyone else get a lot of these GitHub user surveys?
  321. # [09:58] <annevk> Is there a way to opt out?
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  325. # [10:05] <JakeA> annevk: I got one this morning
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  333. # [10:24] <mathiasbynens_> annevk: you didn’t respond to this part “https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#origin reads as though the default port is included.”
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  335. # [10:25] * GuidoBouman is now known as guidobouman
  336. # [10:25] <mathiasbynens> fwiw, i always thought origin didn’t include implicit/default ports, only what’s explicitly part of the URL
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  339. # [10:28] <annevk> mathiasbynens: I made a mistake, origins are tuples, not strings
  340. # [10:28] <annevk> mathiasbynens: and the tuple includes the origin
  341. # [10:28] <annevk> mathiasbynens: includes the port, oops
  342. # [10:29] <mathiasbynens> ok, so the url spec is correct then
  343. # [10:29] <mathiasbynens> so https://example.com/ and https://example.com:443/ are same-origin?
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  346. # [10:35] <annevk> mathiasbynens: yes
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  387. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/credentialmanagement/#security-considerations seems to be kind of defining a Somewhat Similar Origin Policy
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  389. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I wonder what other specs might have the same need
  390. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> i.e., for this Credential Management it's about credential sharing among non-exact origins, but it's imaginable that there might other use cases for sharing across non-exact origins
  391. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> well I guess there are lots of other use cases, if you listen to the people who think the same-origin policy is a problem
  392. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> "MUST NOT offer credentials to an origin in response to request() without user mediation if the credential’s origin is not an exact match for the calling origin"
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  396. # [12:56] <smaug____> annevk: what is the current plan, will shadow dom be merged to dom, or will it stay a separate spec?
  397. # [12:56] <smaug____> (just thinking about bug filing )
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  417. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: in quirks spec source i have this:
  418. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> <h2>Quirks that maybe can be removed from implementations</h2>
  419. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> <dl>
  420. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> <dt>In quirks mode, text-decoration is propagated into floating and absolutely positioned elements</dt>
  421. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> <dd><p>Opera, WebKit and IE9 (except in compat view quirks mode) don't support this quirk.</dd>
  422. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> (commented out)
  423. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> There we are
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  427. # [13:09] <annevk> smaug____: there's no good plan for shadow DOM yet I think
  428. # [13:09] <annevk> smaug____: there's not really consensus on what it should look like
  429. # [13:11] <smaug____> ok, so keep filing bugs on shadow dom spec for now, not dom spec
  430. # [13:12] <annevk> smaug____: yeah
  431. # [13:12] <annevk> smaug____: I'd like to do custom elements first, but we can't seem to get agreement on how to do upgrades :-(
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  433. # [13:13] <smaug____> right
  434. # [13:13] <smaug____> I haven't been following that too closely
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  437. # [13:18] <annevk> Okay, so I tested and yes, there are bugs around microtasks and callbacks
  438. # [13:18] <annevk> Baaah
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  442. # [13:27] <annevk> Filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27874
  443. # [13:28] <annevk> Note that mutation are from 2011
  444. # [13:33] <smaug____> don't understand what that bug is about
  445. # [13:34] <annevk> smaug____: you can't explain when the callbacks are supposed to run from reading the specs
  446. # [13:34] <smaug____> oh, spec text issue
  447. # [13:35] <annevk> smaug____: well it's a bug against a spec
  448. # [13:35] <smaug____> hmm, webidl?
  449. # [13:35] <smaug____> why webidl
  450. # [13:35] <annevk> smaug____: it defines running callbacks
  451. # [13:36] <smaug____> ah, right...
  452. # [13:36] <smaug____> ok, I would add some hook to webidl and make HTML spec to use that to invoke end-of-microtask stuff
  453. # [13:36] <smaug____> HTML or DOM
  454. # [13:36] <annevk> yeah there is such a hook
  455. # [13:37] <annevk> however, the problem is that we don't want to invoke it all the time
  456. # [13:37] <smaug____> yes, only when there isn't any other script on stack
  457. # [13:37] <smaug____> and that would be up to the HTML or DOM to spec
  458. # [13:37] <smaug____> I guess HTML
  459. # [13:37] <annevk> such a weird model
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  489. # [14:37] <annevk> JakeA: did you talk to devdocs.io about AppCache vs SW?
  490. # [14:37] <annevk> JakeA: seems like they're lacking TLS
  491. # [14:39] <JakeA> annevk: I haven't, but shall. But yeah, I guess TLS is an initial blocker. If they've got it working with appcache, they may not want to move to something with worse support
  492. # [14:39] <annevk> JakeA: well, we're going to remove AppCache from Firefox
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  494. # [14:41] <JakeA> annevk: I'll reach out to them
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  499. # [14:48] <annevk> JakeA: that site is really fast btw
  500. # [14:49] <JakeA> annevk: it's great isn't it? Just in time for my 23hr flight tomorrow too
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  503. # [14:51] <annevk> JakeA: Oceania?
  504. # [14:51] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, Sydney
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  529. # [15:57] <JakeA> annevk: re https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/609 - I can't see how client objects can have onmessage, windows have no access to their client
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  542. # [16:14] <iandevlin2> annevk: appcache is being removed from Firefox?
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  556. # [16:59] <annevk> iandevlin2: not yet, but with service workers coming the writing is on the wall
  557. # [16:59] <iandevlin2> annevk: ok, interesting
  558. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> "enemies of the heir beware"?
  559. # [17:00] <JakeA> Appcache has some security howlers. Chrome's security team would like to see it gone
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  562. # [17:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm not sure I comprehend the question
  563. # [17:02] <jgraham> annevk: Not a Harry Potter fan?
  564. # [17:02] <annevk> iandevlin2: I suspect there will be an announcements of sorts, once we've confirmed that service workers actually works
  565. # [17:03] <annevk> jgraham: been a while
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  567. # [17:03] <jgraham> Think Chamber of Secrets
  568. # [17:05] <annevk> heh
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  581. # [17:40] <wanderview> JakeA: can appcache be polyfilled with SW? (I'm not too familiar with appcache api)
  582. # [17:41] <JakeA> wanderview: appcache allows one tab to be using version n, and another to be using version n+1. I think that's the only part SW (deliberately) can't do
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  584. # [17:42] <wanderview> JakeA: version of the SW script, right? I assume they could be using separate cache objects for versions of the site
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  586. # [17:43] <JakeA> wanderview: yeah, but you can't tell which tab you're serving, so you can't give them items from different caches
  587. # [17:43] <JakeA> & there can only be one active SW in a registration
  588. # [17:43] <wanderview> JakeA: oh... right... that makes sense :-)
  589. # [17:44] <JakeA> You can get really close though. You can probably make it work under the hood by finding a way to allow that bit
  590. # [17:45] <JakeA> Eg, if an appcache SW creates a new registration for each version, but at the same scope, that would work (you can't do that with the currently exposed API)
  591. # [17:46] <JakeA> But that means the old tab would be using the old registration & active worker, whereas the new tab uses the new registration & active worker
  592. # [17:46] <wanderview> JakeA: or we could just de-orbit appcache... I was just wondering if polyfill was easy or not
  593. # [17:47] <JakeA> heh yeah
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  623. # [18:24] <annevk> JakeA: can't you do that with Client objects?
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  625. # [18:26] <annevk> Man, the pseudo-security on www-tag just keeps going
  626. # [18:26] <annevk> I wish there were at least some memes to alleviate some of the 386 pull
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  639. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Does somebody have Chrome Canary and can tell me what this logs?
  640. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3381
  641. # [18:50] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: heres what i got https://gist.github.com/miketaylr/ecbf5d97337dc871c90e
  642. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Cool, it's still lolbroke.
  643. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Just checking before I file a bug.
  644. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> That is one *broke-ass* background serialization.
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  647. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> miketaylr: What's your Canary version?
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  649. # [18:52] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: Version 42.0.2282.0 canary (64-bit)
  650. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> OS?
  651. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> Not that it matters, but I'm filling out the fields.
  652. # [18:53] <miketaylr> OSX Yosemite
  653. # [18:53] <miketaylr> 10.10.2
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  658. # [19:06] <wanderview> Domenic: so if we have the request.stream() to reify to a js stream... and request.text() to reify to text... does this mean that request.stream() will set bodyUsed to prevent request.text() from being called?
  659. # [19:06] <wanderview> even if the data has not been read?
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  661. # [19:07] <Domenic> wanderview: bodyUsed is a whole 'nother thread of questions... but I think that is @horo-t's proposal. It seems somewhat self-consistent at least.
  662. # [19:07] <wanderview> I think thats how I would expect it to work if I was a developer... "I can only call one of these reify methods and then bodyUsed is set"
  663. # [19:07] <Domenic> Yeah.
  664. # [19:07] <wanderview> makes sense to me
  665. # [19:08] <wanderview> Domenic: sorry I'm always so confused about this stuff on github... I was once familiar with node streams... but its all a bit mixed up for me now
  666. # [19:08] <Domenic> wanderview: no problem! it's confusing stuff!!
  667. # [19:08] <wanderview> can't keep track of how things have changed recently
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  670. # [19:15] <wanderview> annevk: why is request.text() a method and not a getter?
  671. # [19:15] <annevk> wanderview: because it returns a fresh promise
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  673. # [19:16] <annevk> wanderview: request.text === request.text wouldn't hold
  674. # [19:16] <wanderview> annevk: I guess I would like to see a method like request.stream() so that it can set bodyUsed and return a stream on first call... then reject because of bodyUsed after that
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  676. # [19:16] <wanderview> which of course can be done with a getter... but would be confusing
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  678. # [19:16] <annevk> I see, rationale in the ticket?
  679. # [19:17] <annevk> I have to go now :-(
  680. # [19:17] <wanderview> annevk: k, thanks
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  685. # [19:26] <aklein> annevk: re: microtasks, did you see my comment?
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  745. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> So has anything been made public about this Spartan thing?
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  752. # [21:24] <miketaylr> Ms2ger: seems like the public message is "more details soon"
  753. # [21:26] <smaug____> something new about spartan?
  754. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> And holograms.
  755. # [21:27] <wanderview> they've said "not webkit"
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  759. # [21:35] * smaug____ wonders what is happening @nokia. All the activate@w3c employees are gone?
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  777. # [22:16] <jarek> Hi
  778. # [22:16] <jarek> Is <template> element allowed inside <svg> element?
  779. # [22:17] <jarek> The spec says it should inherit from HTMLTemplateElement : HTMLElement
  780. # [22:17] <jarek> it would make sense to make it more generic (TemplateElement : Element)
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  782. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> No
  783. # [22:20] <jarek> SVG already has <defs> element which is has very similar functionality
  784. # [22:20] <jarek> but I guess it's already too late to rename HTML 5 <template> to <defs>
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  790. # [22:28] <jamesr___> the html/svg ns split is not very useful nowadays
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  796. # [22:38] <tantek> jamesr___: it was never useful, but rather XML/SGML dogma.
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  798. # [22:39] <jamesr___> true, but dogma is less useful these days (not that it was terribly useful technically before, but it had more weight)
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  814. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> jamesr___: I keep trying to get people to agree to merge the namespaces, but they keep whining about "compatibility" and other such nonsense. ^_^
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  824. # [23:13] <annevk> aklein: yeah, thanks for that
  825. # [23:13] <annevk> aklein: makes total sense, so it's just up to bz or heycam to tie things up
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  830. # [23:27] <aklein> annevk: sounds good. I was just worried that you actually wished the ordering was always 1, 2, 3, and that I definitely didn't want to mess with
  831. # [23:27] * Joins: booly-yam-6137 (~cinch@bzq-79-183-25-208.red.bezeqint.net)
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  833. # [23:29] <annevk> aklein: if I had better understood things from the get go I might have argued for that, but at this point I'd just like to have the implemented rules written down
  834. # [23:29] * Joins: thinkxl (~thinkxl@unaffiliated/thinkxl)
  835. # [23:30] * annevk read Spartan as SPARTAN, Opera's test infrastructure
  836. # [23:31] <wanderview> annevk: whenever I try to comment on one of those stream github issues... I end up feeling like a complete idiot... not sure my opinion should really matter much :-)
  837. # [23:32] <annevk> wanderview: please just view it as having a very different perspective, which is very valuable
  838. # [23:33] * Joins: user_ (~jarek@abiy136.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  839. # [23:33] <wanderview> annevk: I just want someone to tell me what bodyUsed means if someone has read half the body through the stream.... its really weird for me if bodyUsed==false there
  840. # [23:34] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  841. # [23:35] <annevk> wanderview: I think several views are conflated
  842. # [23:35] <wanderview> annevk: I gotta run to dinner, but I'll pick up being confused in the morning! good night!
  843. # [23:35] <annevk> wanderview: e.g. I think Domenic wants text() et al to just consume the stream (whatever is in there at the moment) and decode as appropriate (ignoring anything like bodyUsed)
  844. # [23:35] <annevk> wanderview: hah okay, nn
  845. # [23:41] <gsnedders> annevk: Spartan: better tested than SPARTAN.
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  853. # Session Close: Thu Jan 22 00:00:00 2015

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