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- # Session Start: Fri Jan 23 00:00:00 2015
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [09:10] <annevk> es-discuss proves the trivial topic thing once again... "How should we refer to JavaScript?" Oooh, lets write 50 emails within twelve hours!
- # [09:10] <annevk> let's
- # [09:11] <zcorpan> i wonder if Spartan has any use of quirks.spec.whatwg.org
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- # [09:18] <annevk> Probably, it's just a major refactoring of Trident from what I heard
- # [09:19] <annevk> Though the details of what that means are somewhat unclear
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- # [09:27] <zcorpan> i mean since they got rid of their document modes
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- # [11:05] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
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- # [11:13] <zcorpan> <!--[if IE ]>
- # [11:13] <zcorpan> <!doctype html>
- # [11:13] <zcorpan> <![endif]-->
- # [11:13] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
- # [11:13] <zcorpan> view-source:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
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- # [11:25] <jgraham> Hahaha
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- # [12:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: time to update https://hsivonen.fi/doctype/ about IE11 and Edge?
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- # [12:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also s/(which in invalid in HTML5)//g
- # [12:23] <zcorpan> hmm, i had forgotten about Chrome Frame
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- # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, I should find the time to update the doctype article
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- # [17:00] <Domenic> annevk: I don't really understand the issue or question in https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/607#issuecomment-71176152
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- # [17:46] <annevk> Domenic: we want Response to have some mutable state
- # [17:46] <annevk> Domenic: question is mostly whether respondWith should halt the mutability
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- # [17:51] <Domenic> annevk: what about "do we expect the Response object to be cloned at that point in a JavaScript-only world?" ? That part seems especially confusing, possibly because I don't understand respondWith
- # [17:52] <annevk> Domenic: so you have document A and service worker SW
- # [17:52] <annevk> Domenic: SW has a Response object and hands it back to some fetch from A
- # [17:53] <annevk> Domenic: how would that work?
- # [17:54] <Domenic> "hands it back to some fetch from A" does this involve running any code in A? Or is the code entirely in the SW?
- # [17:56] <annevk> Domenic: I was trying to reason from a platform-implemented-in-JS-perspective
- # [17:56] <Domenic> Yeah, me too :)
- # [17:56] <annevk> Domenic: well for A to do a fetch, code has to run, no?
- # [17:56] <Domenic> ok, so A's JS code does fetch(req)
- # [17:57] <Domenic> SW's js code does .onfetch = function (e) { e.respondWith(new Response(...)); }
- # [17:58] <Domenic> A's JS code gets back a Response object from the promise callback
- # [17:58] <Domenic> Is the question then about the relation between the `new Response(...)` in SW and the Response A gets back in the promise callback?
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- # [18:06] <annevk> Domenic: yeah
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- # [18:07] <annevk> Domenic: and in particular up until what point mutations to it in SW affect what A sees
- # [18:07] <Domenic> annevk: OK so in that case I think they're definitely cloned, even in pure-JS land. Since it's across "vats" which are super-separated.
- # [18:07] <Domenic> annevk: so the question would be when exactly the cloning happens I guess.
- # [18:08] <annevk> Domenic: and whether the object remaining in SW needs to be guarded at some point to further mutations
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- # [18:09] <Domenic> annevk: I would naively guess the cloning happens when the promise you pass to respondWith() has its IDL-registered set of callbacks run
- # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: yeah agreed
- # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: I arrived at that conclusion too
- # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: just not sure how to write this out
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- # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: should respondWith set a flag on Response that prevents further mutation?
- # [18:13] <Domenic> Meh, I'm not sure users need to be protected that much. Is this the first mutable state on Response?
- # [18:14] <Domenic> You'd have to define that the internal slot gets cloned as part of structured clone, for sure.
- # [18:16] <annevk> So we can't call devs authors, but users is okay?
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- # [18:19] <caitp> authors, editors, biographers, depends what they're developing :u
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- # [18:23] <Domenic> Blah I am used to saying "users" from all the io.js I've been doing recently
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- # [18:47] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, you should bikeshed FileAPI some time
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- # [19:29] <JonathanNeal> I’m a little unclear on DOM4’s .append method. Will it apply to just Element or Node as well (for document.append usage)?
- # [19:35] <caitp> i believe that applies to the ParentNode partial interface
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- # [19:35] <caitp> so Element, Document and DocumentFragment
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- # [19:39] <JonathanNeal> caitp: excellent.
- # [19:40] <JonathanNeal> Does that mean I would find it on the Node prototype? Or only on ParentNode?
- # [19:40] <caitp> well there's no ParentNode exposed to Js
- # [19:40] <caitp> you'd see the methods of ParentNode in the interfaces i listed above
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- # [19:43] <Ms2ger> What does the spec say?
- # [19:44] <JonathanNeal> Ms2ger: that’s what I was having trouble following and decided to asked about.
- # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Document implements ParentNode; DocumentFragment implements ParentNode; Element implements ParentNode;
- # [19:45] <Ms2ger> So it's on Document.prototype, DocumentFragment.prototype, and Element.prototype
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- # [19:45] <caitp> eg, if you wanted to polyfill it, you'd have to do it for each of those
- # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> That’s very helpful. Thanks.
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- # [19:47] <Ms2ger> Relevant spec is https://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-implements-statements
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- # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Where's it stored?
- # [19:56] <TabAtkins> I also really wanna Bikeshed DOM, as there's always tons of links to that from these JS-heavy specs.
- # [19:57] <TabAtkins> It's gotten a lot easier to link to non-Bikeshedded specs now, but still not 0 effort, so I have work to do.
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- # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> Nice close, caitp.
- # [19:59] <caitp> huh?
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- # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> https://github.com/angular/angular.js/issues/9967 ?
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- # [20:01] <manu> anyone on this channel know what the current state of the art is wrt. browsers communicating w/ native apps? If I want my website to trigger a native app to handle a payment, for example. What would folks suggest?
- # [20:01] <caitp> heh, it probably wasn't going to happen
- # [20:02] <JonathanNeal> caitp: they do it over at https://octane.github.io/promise/tests/browser.html
- # [20:02] <manu> so, browser page sends JSON data to native app, JSON data is processed by native app and response is sent back to browser page.
- # [20:02] <manu> is postMessage() + offline mode the "best" way to accomplish something like this nowadays?
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- # [20:04] <manu> (given that web intents is dead?)
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- # [20:42] <JonathanNeal> Would this be a good doc to fork if I wanted to suggest features?
- # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> ^ https://github.com/WebReflection/dom4
- # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> WRONG
- # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> Ahem https://github.com/whatwg/dom
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- # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> When did replace become replaceWith? How can I keep up to date with these changes?
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- # [20:54] <miketaylr> just a few days ago JonathanNeal
- # [20:54] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: https://github.com/whatwg/dom/commits/master seems like a good way to do so. There's even RSS: https://feedly.com/i/subscription/feed/https://github.com/whatwg/dom/commits/master.atom
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- # [21:00] <JonathanNeal> @Domenic great you just tell me where I can stuff forEach =D
- # [21:00] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: already there: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#collections:-elements
- # [21:02] <JonathanNeal> So, for polyfilling, Elements can mirror to NodeList? And HTMLCollection is the older, living collection version, right?
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- # [21:03] <Domenic> I don't know what "mirror to NodeList" means
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- # [21:04] <JonathanNeal> Until I see global.Elements, I can expect Elements = NodeList?
- # [21:04] <Domenic> The main difference between NodeList and HTMLCollection is the former contains nodes and the latter contains elements
- # [21:04] <Domenic> No, you cannot... they are different things entirely.
- # [21:05] <JonathanNeal> Okay, so querySelectorAll and childNodes will still return NodeList or will they return Elements?
- # [21:05] <Domenic> They will return NodeList
- # [21:06] <Domenic> Which can never have forEach per https://stackoverflow.com/questions/13433799/why-doesnt-nodelist-have-foreach/27024188#27024188
- # [21:06] <JonathanNeal> There’s this line in the spec “It's the new NodeList / HTMLCollection.”
- # [21:06] <Domenic> Yes. That doesn't change what other things return.
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- # [21:07] <JonathanNeal> Having it on query but not nodeList will probably bum folks out.
- # [21:08] <JonathanNeal> Despite the concat bug.
- # [21:08] <Domenic> The hope is in the beautiful future you won't be seeing many NodeLists
- # [21:09] <JonathanNeal> How does that happen? Are there significant changes to DOM traversing coming?
- # [21:12] <Domenic> Well .queryAll() will take care of many cases
- # [21:12] <JonathanNeal> Ah, so like queryAll(':nth-child(n)’) ?
- # [21:12] <Domenic> I... don't know why you would ever do that.
- # [21:13] <JonathanNeal> I … want a Elements collection. =)
- # [21:13] <Domenic> what elements are represented by :nth-child(n)
- # [21:13] <Domenic> Is that the same as "> *"
- # [21:13] <JonathanNeal> Sure, either selector.
- # [21:13] <Domenic> No I think it's the same as "*"
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- # [21:14] <Domenic> But yes, in general, use .queryAll("> *") instead of .children, etc.
- # [21:14] <JonathanNeal> So, folks would need to queryAll(‘>*’) ?
- # [21:15] <Domenic> Maybe we add more aliases once the very basic part of the idea proves its worth
- # [21:15] <Domenic> although with children and childNodes it's already getting kind of crowded in there
- # [21:15] <JonathanNeal> And this is to avoid the thing with named properties on HTMLCollection and concat treating non-array-iterables weird?
- # [21:16] <Domenic> yeah basically. stated more generally, to avoid the problem where making NodeList or HTMLCollection subclass Array breaks the web.
- # [21:17] <Domenic> You also get benefits that .queryAll("> *") actually works, whereas .querySelectorAll("> *") throws, because of the slightly-better way in which queryAll interprets selectors
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- # [21:18] <JonathanNeal> I’ve been eager for queryAll since Resig blogged about the issues with querySelectorAll.
- # [21:19] <JonathanNeal> I am surprised browsers weren’t faster to adopt it, but I guess it’s a win for the Elements class.
- # [21:21] <Domenic> They're waiting for ES6 subclassing to work
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- # [21:22] <TabAtkins> Domenic: :nth-child(n) is identical to "*".
- # [21:22] <TabAtkins> Except for specificity, which doesn't matter here. ^_^
- # [21:22] <JonathanNeal> I just wanted to write something worse than *, is all.
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- # [21:50] <JonathanNeal> Anything going on spec-wise with event listeners / handlers or event delegation?
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- # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Anyone know where the File API source is kept? Can't find if there's a github or something for it.
- # [22:25] <tantek> probably in a file system
- # [22:25] <TabAtkins> You lose 1 point for purposeful obtuseness.
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- # [22:26] <tantek> File / file? too obv? sorry.
- # [22:26] <TabAtkins> No, no, I got it. You still lose the point.
- # [22:27] <TabAtkins> I wanna Bikeshed it, but dunno where it's kept; I'd vastly prefer messing with the source over the generated output.
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- # [22:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: Could I Bikeshed DOM?
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- # [22:40] <JonathanNeal> Hey, we might all have opinions on bikeshedding that should be discussed before you go and bikeshed.
- # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Not allowed.
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- # Session Close: Sat Jan 24 00:00:00 2015
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