/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-01-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 27 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:11] <jgraham> nicholasserra: So afaict when you parse the output of that you get the same as when you parse the input i.e. everything is working as expected
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  12. # [00:13] <nicholasserra> jgraham: What do you mean? To clarify my issue, if I try to sanitize an anchor tag with href like google.com/?key=1&key=2, the href will be changed to ?key=1&amp;key=2
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  18. # [00:19] <zewt_> dpm
  19. # [00:19] <zewt_> typing hard
  20. # [00:19] <zewt_> don't suppose there's a magic setting to un-break chrome user scripts
  21. # [00:20] <zewt_> one day google decided to just kill off user scripts saying "not from chrome web store"
  22. # [00:20] <jgraham> nicholasserra: The output will yes. But reparsing that output will give you the same DOM as your original input
  23. # [00:20] <jgraham> So I don't see why it's a problem
  24. # [00:22] * c74d3 is now known as c74d
  25. # [00:22] <nicholasserra> The DOM is fine, but now I have an href with an invalid link
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  27. # [00:22] <nicholasserra> jgraham: ^
  28. # [00:23] <nicholasserra> Unless html entities are parsed by the browser. I don't think that's the case though.
  29. # [00:25] <nicholasserra> tldr <a href="test.com/&"> goes in, <a href="test.com/&amp;"> comes out. Different href attrs
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  32. # [00:25] <zewt_> that looks right to me
  33. # [00:25] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  34. # [00:26] <jgraham> nicholasserra: It is the case. See e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3384
  35. # [00:26] <zewt> it's not going to remember which characters were escaped in the input, you just always escape going out
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  37. # [00:27] <zewt> it could probably figure out when escaping isn't needed, but nobody would risk escaping-related security bugs just to prettify html a little
  38. # [00:27] <zewt> (for some value of nobody)
  39. # [00:27] <nicholasserra> Nice. I guess I never knew that the browser would treat html special chars as their regular character counterparts when parsing the attribute. Still seems generally wrong to me though.
  40. # [00:28] <nicholasserra> I would expect those URI attrs to be excluded from any parsing or treatment in general.
  41. # [00:28] <zewt> (you mean URL)
  42. # [00:28] <zewt> how would you put a quote in the string?
  43. # [00:28] <jgraham> nicholasserra: The spec and all browsers disagree with your expectations, though :)
  44. # [00:29] <zewt> i guess you're thinking that you could URL-escape but not HTML-escape, which I guess is fair, but incorrect
  45. # [00:29] <jgraham> Not all attributes are URLs
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  47. # [00:29] <nicholasserra> The code from html5lib refers to them as URI. But yeah.
  48. # [00:30] <zewt> since the ... yeah that's a shorter way of typing what i was about to type
  49. # [00:30] <nicholasserra> Yeah, I guess I would imagine that urlencoding it would make more sense
  50. # [00:30] <jgraham> It probably shouldn't say URI but it's hard to change the API now
  51. # [00:30] <nicholasserra> Weird stuff
  52. # [00:31] <nicholasserra> thanks for sorting it out with me zewt and jgraham
  53. # [00:31] <jgraham> nicholasserra: np
  54. # [00:31] <nicholasserra> Im going to leave my issue open to see if anyone else has an opinion on it
  55. # [00:32] <zewt> not really good practice
  56. # [00:33] <zewt> since it's forcing somebody somewhere to spend time on it (and just repeating what we just said)
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  58. # [00:34] <nicholasserra> While you're both right that it will work, I still don't think URL attributes should even be parsed. It's probably a wontfix issue, but i'm curious if the authors have any more input.
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  60. # [00:35] <zewt> given that that's not what browsers actually do, that's frankly just not a valid thing to think :)
  61. # [00:36] <zewt> better off posting to a mailing list if you want to ask for opinions--filing a bug is sort of like demanding them
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  63. # [00:37] <zewt> (anyway, i'm not the one who has to respond to the bug report)
  64. # [00:38] <nicholasserra> That's fair. The google group for html5lib is pretty dead. Any suggestions on where to ask that question?
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  67. # [00:39] <jgraham> nicholasserra: FWIW I am one of the principal authors of html5lib
  68. # [00:39] <zewt> it's not really html5lib-specific, you could ask anywhere html-related, eg. stackoverflow
  69. # [00:39] <zewt> since you're asking about html parsing, html5lib is just one implementation of that
  70. # [00:40] <nicholasserra> Gotcha. Thanks. I closed my issue. Maybe i'll bring it up elsewhere. jgraham zewt
  71. # [00:40] <zewt> (another reason what you're suggesting is incorrect: browsers don't know whether an attribute contains a url in advance; it might be a polyfilled attribute that it doesn't know about yet)
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  73. # [00:42] <nicholasserra> I guess my gripe is more with the parser than the browser. Mainly: If the browser will just read the html special character as its regular character counterpart, and the parser knows that it's in a URL attribute, when why bother escaping it?
  74. # [00:43] <zewt> the parser doesn't necessarily know anything about the contents of an attribute
  75. # [00:43] <nicholasserra> In html5lib, it has a list of attrs that are marked as URL attributes
  76. # [00:43] <zewt> (and it shouldn't have to--that's bad layering)
  77. # [00:43] <zewt> and that's not exhaustive: when a new attribute is added to HTML that contains a URL, it won't know about it
  78. # [00:44] <zewt> which means HTML would parse differently as attributes are added
  79. # [00:44] <nicholasserra> So basically you're saying it should sanitize everything just in case?
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  81. # [00:46] <zewt> nothing to do with sanitizing, if you say <foo srcurl="http://google.com/&amp;">, and you look at srcurl in javascript on the page, some browsers would say "http://google.com&amp;" and others would say "http://google.com&"
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  263. # [09:02] <charl> good morning
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  273. # [09:15] <iandevlin> Morning
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  280. # [09:46] <annevk> hsivonen: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8950243
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  299. # [10:29] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks.
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  301. # [10:31] <hsivonen> annevk: little endian being niche that goes agains tradition is pretty much like the Web being niche
  302. # [10:31] <annevk> uhuh
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  353. # [13:04] <annevk> JakeA: Domenic: how do you feel about adding Response.prototype.ok = function() { return this.status => 200 && this.status < 300 }?
  354. # [13:06] <jgraham> >=
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  358. # [13:09] <jgraham> annevk: So requests has that, but I have never been convinced that the semantics are quite perfect. But I guess it's not obviously a terrible idea
  359. # [13:10] <annevk> jgraham: what problems did you run into?
  360. # [13:11] <jgraham> Well I haven't, but I can imagine situations where getting a 204 would be just as unexpected as a 100
  361. # [13:12] <jgraham> (well unless 1xx responses are handled at a lower layer I guess. Does anyone actually produce those?)
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  366. # [13:12] <jgraham> Anyway I guess on balance it's a good idea
  367. # [13:13] <gsnedders> AFAIK it's only unknown status codes that should be treated as the base one
  368. # [13:13] <gsnedders> and we know that all of those in HTTP/1.1 exist
  369. # [13:13] <annevk> jgraham: I believe 1xx is ignored and not exposed
  370. # [13:13] <gsnedders> whether you want to lump 201–5 in with 200 is a separate choice
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  372. # [13:14] <annevk> jgraham: mnot would like us to expose them...
  373. # [13:14] <annevk> CORS has a 200-299 check somewhere so there's at least one place in the platform where we use this
  374. # [13:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, do you know if HTTP defines what to do with status codes that aren't three digits?
  375. # [13:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: parse error
  376. # [13:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: maybe that turns it into a HTTP/0.9 response?
  377. # [13:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: would be an interesting test for web-platform-tests
  378. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> Uhuh
  379. # [13:19] <gsnedders> in most things it turns into a HTTP/0.9 response, IIRC
  380. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> How do you detect that?
  381. # [13:20] <annevk> Ms2ger: 0.9 means the entire response is the body
  382. # [13:20] <gsnedders> You're aware HTTP/0.9 has no headers?
  383. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> No :)
  384. # [13:20] <annevk> It's why we have sniffing
  385. # [13:20] <annevk> And why <plaintext> is a thing
  386. # [13:21] <annevk> HTTP and HTML used to be intertwined a bit
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  388. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> "Well-behaved servers should retrict line length to 80 characters"
  389. # [13:26] <ms7821> does http/2 mention simple-request?
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  393. # [13:47] <annevk> Fullscreen API and <dialog>. Anyone from Chromium other than falken and philipj who can give input to this bug? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27865
  394. # [13:47] <annevk> Also, anyone know plans from other vendors regarding <dialog>?
  395. # [13:50] <gsnedders> ms7821: I presume not.
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  403. # [14:39] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it seems to me it would be about equally hard for blink to add taintEnabled as it is for gecko to drop it
  404. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, seems plausible
  405. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> Stuff sucks
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  407. # [14:40] <zcorpan> also no incentive apart from "interop!!"
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  409. # [14:41] <zcorpan> i guess the spec should make it optional or something
  410. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> Yay interop :)
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  418. # [15:05] <annevk> Warnings haven't helped?
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  438. # [15:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: we should probably add a warning to https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Sanitization_rules that it is not maintained and should probably not be used as reference without scrutiny
  439. # [15:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: did you have a template for that?
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  447. # [15:58] <rubys> annevk: +1 to warning on wiki/Sanitization_rules ... it was never more than a work in progress
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  474. # [16:30] <Domenic> annevk: seems ok, a bit sugary and possibly encouraging bad habits (e.g. being too lenient, when you expect a 201 a 200 is generally not ok). If another spec uses the check that does make me feel better. Probably a good idea on balance.
  475. # [16:30] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, I'm hesitant too, really depends on the protocol
  476. # [16:32] <Domenic> I think devs will like it. Just us grouchy pedants who grumble.
  477. # [16:32] <annevk> The issue mentioned in that thread about filtering out non-2xx does exist and this does help a lot with that so...
  478. # [16:33] <annevk> We'll see, it's fairly trivial to ignore if it's really only relevant for CORS
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  497. # [17:07] <GPHemsley> annevk: I added {{obsolete}}. Is there a better place to point to, or is it just abandoned?
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  524. # [17:33] <annevk> GPHemsley: abandonware though now there's template strings it might be worth looking into having a sanitized parser again
  525. # [17:33] <annevk> GPHemsley: though it'd be hard
  526. # [17:33] <GPHemsley> annevk: Alright, I was just curious as to whether there might be values for the 'spec' or 'see' parameters.
  527. # [17:34] <GPHemsley> (Which would point people in a better direction.)
  528. # [17:34] <annevk> GPHemsley: I don't think there is anything
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  572. # [18:40] <smaug____> hmm, is telemetry data wrong, or has mutation event usage gone down
  573. # [18:40] <smaug____> where is the tool to see feature usage on chromium?
  574. # [18:41] * Parts: charl (~charl@524A9047.cm-4-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) ("WeeChat 1.1")
  575. # [18:42] <annevk> smaug____: https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/148
  576. # [18:43] <annevk> There seems to be a downward trend but still quite high
  577. # [18:43] <annevk> Are you guys going to Edge London?
  578. # [18:44] <annevk> I was thinking of going
  579. # [18:44] <annevk> 27 June
  580. # [18:45] <smaug____> yeah, still a bit high
  581. # [18:46] <annevk> But yay downward trend I guess
  582. # [18:46] <annevk> I wonder if we have to define it
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  584. # [18:49] <smaug____> oh, chrome doesn't warn about use of mutation events
  585. # [18:49] <annevk> Paging fool... why is he not online?
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  588. # [18:50] <annevk> SimonSapin: hey, I had a question about Servo. Is document.write() there? Is there much parallel code? Is </script> a special code path?
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  590. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> No document.write()
  591. # [18:53] <annevk> smaug____: perhaps we should ask blink-dev?
  592. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> annevk: In order: not yet (https://github.com/servo/html5ever/issues/6), yes (especially in layout code), apparently not yet (https://github.com/servo/html5ever/blob/fc515000c0/src/tree_builder/rules.rs#L783)
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  594. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> Nothing parallel in HTML parsing, though
  595. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> right
  596. # [18:56] <SimonSapin> In theory we could run character decoding, tokenization and tree building each in a thread, in a pipeline. But I don’t think we do.
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  598. # [18:57] <annevk> SimonSapin: no parallel tree building?
  599. # [18:57] <jgraham> I think that tokenization-in-a-task was mooted as a GSoC project
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  601. # [18:57] <jgraham> Moving charset decoding to a task seems like it might not be much of a win?
  602. # [18:58] <SimonSapin> I have no idea
  603. # [18:58] <SimonSapin> "mooted" as in we established it was not a win?
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  605. # [18:59] <annevk> From another angle, how much hurt would it be to run script for creation and insertion of elements that have a dash in them?
  606. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> mooted as in "discussed"
  607. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> "moot" has multiple, somewhat opposing, meanings.
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  609. # [19:00] <annevk> It would mean that part of the code could no longer be run in parallel
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  633. # [19:45] <annevk> hsivonen: also https://twitter.com/marshray/status/560121170373386240
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  659. # [20:19] <hsivonen> krijnhoetmer: thanks for the "Previous day" and "Next day" links
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  663. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> ^
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  717. # [22:53] <Domenic> TabAtkins: can my text macros be empty strings somehow?
  718. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> Right now, no, but I can relax error-checking to allow it.
  719. # [22:53] <Domenic> There might be a better way... let me open an issue with a bit more details
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  726. # [23:01] <Domenic> TabAtkins: let me know if https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/335 makes sense
  727. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it does.
  728. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Domenic: I'd been planning to add some sort of conditional element, so you could delete elements unless they matched certain attributes of your document. (Probably starting with just status.)
  729. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> I think that'd work for you?
  730. # [23:03] <Domenic> TabAtkins: sounds excellent, as long as it works with custom metadata lines like `!Version History`
  731. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> I'd still need to do the "remove empty <dd>s" pass.
  732. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Oh wait though. The problem is that you can't pass !Version History conditionally, right?
  733. # [23:04] <Domenic> Right
  734. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Let's just figure out how to fix that directly.
  735. # [23:04] <Domenic> If I could pass empty strings then I could end up with an empty <dd>
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  737. # [23:04] <Domenic> which visually is fine
  738. # [23:05] <Domenic> TabAtkins: actually, this might be unnecessary. I think I can just add a "back to the living standard" link and substitute that where the "go to commit snapshot" link would be
  739. # [23:05] <Domenic> Much easier.
  740. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Heh, kk. And useful!
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  742. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> but also, I think I can make custom metadata work just fine.
  743. # [23:06] <Domenic> Yeah, I figured it would be redundant with the giant red floating banner, but it's nice for symmetry... this way the TOC doesn't jump up and down a line as you go between LS and snapshot
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  746. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Say I was wanting to integrate ecmd into Bikeshed directly. Most of the inline markup turns into plain HTML, but some turn into ecmarkup elements. What's the significance of these, and how should I reproduce their effects in HTML?
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  748. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Specifically, <emu-const> and <emu-nt>.
  749. # [23:14] <Domenic> TabAtkins: the idea is they are semantically better than <span class="const">, could potentially be custom-elemented in the future (although it seems unlikely you'd be able to do anything useful there), and that the EMU stylesheet will style them specifically.
  750. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> So I should stick with them, then?
  751. # [23:14] <Domenic> I think so
  752. # [23:14] <Domenic> See also https://bterlson.github.io/ecmarkup/
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  754. # [23:15] <Domenic> Also: are you really looking into this!? I would be sooo excited.
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  757. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  758. # [23:17] <Domenic> ^__^
  759. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> I've got more control over what kinds of markup shorthands can exist in a given document, so that gives me more freedom to add additional types of shorthands.
  760. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Like, for example, all the JS shorthands.
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