/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-02-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 06 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:09] <Hixie> JakeA: i'm not up to date on the serviceworker stuff, but i'm happy to advise within that constraint
  7. # [00:09] <Hixie> JakeA: what's the problem?
  8. # [00:10] <Hixie> Domenic: you got wiki issues i hear?
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  21. # [00:45] <Domenic> Hixie: yeah, I tried to forgot-password for Domenic and didn't get any email. also tried emailing wiki-admin and got a weird error.
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  41. # [01:29] <GPHemsley> annevk: Sure, I'll take a look
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  50. # [01:52] <GPHemsley> annevk, Domenic: For reasons unknown, there is no way to change a user's e-mail address without editing the database directly.
  51. # [01:52] <GPHemsley> annevk, Domenic: I have done so, and sent a new password reset e-mail.
  52. # [01:52] <GPHemsley> annevk, Domenic: If this turns out to be a bogus request, though, it's on you. ;)
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  60. # [02:00] <Domenic> GPHemsley: thanks! All sorted.
  61. # [02:01] <GPHemsley> cool
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  142. # [07:37] <JonathanNeal> This was an excellent discussion. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=946370
  143. # [07:40] <JonathanNeal> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#screenreader this addresses my need to identify content for screenreaders.
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  181. # [09:28] <annevk> Hmm, I guess I should start writing a wiki page for Shadow DOM too with a summary of all those emails
  182. # [09:28] <annevk> 75 emails
  183. # [09:29] <othermaciej> I should read them all and say something constructive instead of just snarking
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  186. # [09:36] <annevk> My main takeaway is that event retargeting is contentious
  187. # [09:36] <annevk> Encapsulation is still a problem
  188. # [09:37] <annevk> And per rniwa I get the impression that there are some aspects of the current design that prevent isolation
  189. # [09:38] <annevk> I've unfortunately poorly kept track of Shadow DOM discussion to date so I would have to do some digging
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  191. # [09:38] <annevk> I guess I might start doing that soonish
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  193. # [09:42] <othermaciej> the current design doesn’t have isolation
  194. # [09:43] <othermaciej> I don’t think it would be that hard to add
  195. # [09:43] <othermaciej> making it the default (as I think it should be) would probably require a compat break with what what shipped in Chrome
  196. # [09:44] <annevk> othermaciej: actual isolation requires something worker-like though, no?
  197. # [09:44] <othermaciej> oh, really real isolation?
  198. # [09:44] <othermaciej> not really
  199. # [09:44] <othermaciej> I am not sure why people suggest that at all
  200. # [09:44] <annevk> The +1 button?
  201. # [09:44] <othermaciej> the actual UA doesn’t use workers to implement built-in elements
  202. # [09:45] <othermaciej> there’s no need to have a separate thread of control
  203. # [09:45] <annevk> Well yeah I don't mean workers per se, I just mean that the globals can't reach each other
  204. # [09:45] <othermaciej> you just need a two-way membrane and separate global objects
  205. # [09:45] <annevk> Workers have that the best, the <iframe> setup is rather special
  206. # [09:45] <othermaciej> assuming you want to protect the component from the page
  207. # [09:46] <annevk> So Gecko has a really cool membrane setup as I understand it, but nobody else is interested in adopting it
  208. # [09:46] <othermaciej> basically the way the page could attack the component is by pre-hacking the JS global environment (for example modifying methods on prototypes), or by passing it poison values
  209. # [09:46] <othermaciej> you can solve the first by giving a component (or maybe set of components loaded from a given origin) its own global object
  210. # [09:47] <annevk> So in your estimation we just need to tweak the existing shadow DOM a bit?
  211. # [09:47] <othermaciej> and the second either by using very crude message passing, or by making method/property access do an extended version of the structured clone algorithm at the boundaries
  212. # [09:47] <othermaciej> it’s been a while since I looked into the details of what it would take to provide just the DOM level of encapsulation
  213. # [09:47] <othermaciej> but once you have that, you need a way to instantiate components from a separate global
  214. # [09:48] <othermaciej> I don’t think Shadow DOM quite has that in scope
  215. # [09:48] <othermaciej> I always imagined some form of cross-domain safe thing like HTML imports where you can also import custom elements from it
  216. # [09:48] <othermaciej> and those custom elements have all their JS run in a separate global object with the membrane thing
  217. # [09:48] <annevk> Okay so yeah, you're looking at something quite different then compared to what is there now
  218. # [09:48] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.179.176.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  219. # [09:49] <othermaciej> Adam Barth sort of agreed a while ago that this basic plan could lead to the possibility of sound two-way isolation
  220. # [09:49] <othermaciej> I think the shadow DOM piece is mostly right (except for its failure to do DOM encapsulation)
  221. # [09:49] <othermaciej> doing script isolation requires a separate mechanism
  222. # [09:49] <othermaciej> you can’t tack it onto shadow DOM
  223. # [09:49] <othermaciej> because by the time you have some script creating a shadow DOM, it’s too late
  224. # [09:49] <othermaciej> so the mechanism has to come in earlier than that
  225. # [09:50] <othermaciej> I sort of explained it in this email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JulSep/0024.html
  226. # [09:50] <annevk> This all sounds quite familiar
  227. # [09:51] <othermaciej> it sounds like XBL2
  228. # [09:52] <annevk> Heh
  229. # [09:52] <othermaciej> here’s Adam more or less agreeing that my approach is a sensible general direction: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JulSep/0038.html
  230. # [09:54] <annevk> Did he ever report back?
  231. # [09:54] <othermaciej> not that I recall
  232. # [09:54] <othermaciej> I think he might be mostly working on a non-Blink project these days
  233. # [09:54] <annevk> I got that impression too, hardly see him around anymore
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  239. # [10:00] <annevk> I love the latest objection against deprecating synchronous XMLHttpRequest. "Do you really want script writers to deal with scroll events while an ajax is outstanding?"
  240. # [10:02] <othermaciej> I am terrified of the mindset that would produce that comment
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  285. # [12:21] <JakeA> annevk: tried to sum up the postMessage stuff over at https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/609#issuecomment-71622477 - let me know if I've gotten any of it wrong
  286. # [12:22] <JakeA> annevk: I'm going to try and get this in front of external devs looking to implement push messaging for their take
  287. # [12:27] <annevk> JakeA: I don't see how you can communicate with Worker and SharedWorker "the standard way"
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  289. # [12:27] <annevk> JakeA: it's also not clear to me that complex library usage is going to be discovered early on in the deployment of this, that seems overly optimistic
  290. # [12:28] <annevk> JakeA: I also suggested actually having a MessagePort like object on each side on a per-client basis
  291. # [12:28] <JakeA> annevk: I thought you said it was ok to have instance of dedicatedworker in the serviceworker, and have postMessage work. The standard way with SharedWorker would be the connect event and passing ports through (which I dislike, but it's how it's defined)
  292. # [12:28] <annevk> JakeA: so the object that receives the message can also send is, which happens to be how most of these postMessage() APIs work
  293. # [12:29] <annevk> JakeA: I did at one point, but then later on we figured out that it couldn't possibly work...
  294. # [12:29] <annevk> JakeA: A SW instantiating a Worker/SharedWorker is different from it controlling one
  295. # [12:30] <JakeA> annevk: ohh, I thought it was the other way around, that you thought it couldn't work then realised it could. If a SW gets a reference to a DedicatedWorker via the clients API, what stops it being able to postMessage to it?
  296. # [12:31] <annevk> JakeA: how can two windows possibly have a Worker object that references the same worker?
  297. # [12:31] <annevk> JakeA: s/two windows/two globals/
  298. # [12:34] <JakeA> Seems like I'm misremembering the history of the dedicated worker bit
  299. # [12:34] <JakeA> annevk: how about SharedWorkers? No problem exposing those right?
  300. # [12:34] <annevk> Same problem
  301. # [12:34] <annevk> I mean, we talked about this, I'm not sure what to say
  302. # [12:35] <annevk> I said several times that Window, Worker, and SharedWorker all need a way, the same way, to receive and post messages to their SW
  303. # [12:35] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
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  305. # [12:42] <JakeA> Fair, I guess getting a SharedWorker would need to be equivalent to constructing a SharedWorker, which could call the connect event, which doesn't really make sense
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  307. # [12:47] <annevk> Exactly
  308. # [12:48] <annevk> And DedicatedWorker cannot suddenly go from 1:1 to 1:2
  309. # [12:52] <JakeA> annevk: "I also suggested actually having a MessagePort like object on each side on a per-client basis" - you weren't happy with navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage being that thing right?
  310. # [12:53] <annevk> JakeA: well, if we always have navigator.serviceWorker.postMessage() to go with it, sure
  311. # [12:53] <annevk> also*
  312. # [12:53] <annevk> I don't really care where we place the endpoints
  313. # [12:57] <JakeA> annevk: The problem is we need to land the message on the client somewhere client specific, a ServiceWorker instance isn't that. But posting from page to ServiceWorker should be serviceWorker.postMessage. SharedWorker gets around this using the connect & posts model which is horrible but also doesn't work with SWs because SWs terminate
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  318. # [12:59] <JakeA> annevk: navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage has the benefit of being client specific, lives in ServiceWorker-API space, doesn't interfere with things like window.onmessage, but it doesn't meet the navigator.serviceWorker.postMessage requirement as there no sensible place for that to post to
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  401. # [13:48] <beverloo> annevk, is there a mozilla bug for SWR.showNotification()?
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  404. # [13:56] <annevk> beverloo: I'm not sure, feel free to file one
  405. # [13:57] * annevk finds https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531817 but that seems to be something else
  406. # [13:57] <beverloo> yeah, I found that as well, but that predates the API :)
  407. # [13:57] <beverloo> I'll file one later today
  408. # [13:57] <annevk> JakeA: each global has its own ServiceWorker instance
  409. # [13:58] <annevk> JakeA: and each SW has Client instances
  410. # [13:58] <annevk> JakeA: that seems alright to me
  411. # [14:00] <annevk> JakeA: but I can see how you don't want to to use Client instances as the other side...
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  413. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: though then you'd need to branch in the onmessage handler on the SW side which doesn't seem great either
  414. # [14:01] <annevk> meh
  415. # [14:01] <annevk> beverloo: ta
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  428. # [14:42] <jgraham> Have we considered speccing web components by reality TV show? We lock all the participants in a house with some cameras and every week the public get to vote off whoever isn't providing something useful. At the end of it we either have a spec or everyone involved has killed each other.
  429. # [14:43] <annevk> jgraham: that's your idea of better than the status quo?
  430. # [14:43] * bkardell lol annevk
  431. # [14:43] <jgraham> annevk: It seems like you have much better incentives than in the status quo
  432. # [14:44] <jgraham> If you don't do useful things you get voted off and so your opinion is discounted
  433. # [14:44] <annevk> Depends, would there be memes? https://twitter.com/w3cmemes
  434. # [14:44] <jgraham> Also it would provide W3C with a revenue source so they can stop offering jQuery training
  435. # [14:46] <jgraham> I'm sure there would be memes
  436. # [14:51] <bkardell> You know what actually could be intersting - public debates
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  438. # [14:52] <bkardell> debate style... moderator, make your case, video stream
  439. # [14:53] <bkardell> I'd watch - I bet I could get a lot of people to watch and comment
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  452. # [15:36] <annevk> I don't think that will lead to an inclusive design
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  454. # [15:37] <annevk> Though I guess it might be entertaining
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  466. # [16:10] <wanderview> JakeA: do you have any sense about how often devs will want to use Cache prefix matching? from chrome telemetry or just talking to folks?
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  471. # [16:26] * gsnedders wonders what the "Other Data" in the Firefox import is
  472. # [16:26] <gsnedders> That's some nice clear UI.
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  476. # [16:28] <JakeA> wanderview: unfortunately it's mostly from my head. I was making sure we had something similar to appcache's FALLBACK matching
  477. # [16:29] <JakeA> wanderview: if there's an implementation concern around it, I'm open to removing it. It's the least important of the match filters
  478. # [16:29] <JakeA> (I think query string ignoring is pretty important)
  479. # [16:30] <wanderview> JakeA: its not a concern per-se... I already have it implemented... but its likely I will optimize non-prefix-matching at the expense of making prefix-matching even slower
  480. # [16:31] <wanderview> JakeA: it comes down to the sqlite schema... the URL text column can be quite large to begin with and using an index on the column essentially duplicates the data on disk again
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  489. # [16:57] <JonathanNeal> What if [hidden] accepted a list of media types? I need something like [hidden="screen"] to describe stuff I want hidden from the screen but perceivable to screenreaders.
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  492. # [17:08] <JakeA> wanderview: at the moment we have lots of engineers visiting London, which includes the people working on our cache impl. They also see prefix-matching as a deopt. Let's get rid of it! We can always add it back later.
  493. # [17:08] <wanderview> JakeA: actually I need it for a side project I'm working on :-)
  494. # [17:09] <wanderview> but I guess I could skin that cat a different way
  495. # [17:09] <JakeA> wanderview: ohhh interesting. What's the use-case? Is it tough to do without the filter?
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  498. # [17:14] <wanderview> JakeA: sent you a private message
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  505. # [17:47] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, can't use client.onmessage for client-to-sw messages due to SW termination
  506. # [17:48] <JakeA> stashing ports in SW gives us a way to recreate the SharedWorker style of messaging, but ugh
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  508. # [17:48] <JakeA> and also GC observation, potential leaks, and also ugh
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  514. # [17:55] <annevk> JakeA: well you could, if all clients are always available
  515. # [17:56] <annevk> JakeA: you'd synchronously register onmessage handlers at the start
  516. # [17:56] <annevk> but it's rather sad
  517. # [17:58] <JakeA> Could hand-wave it to a "clientmessage" global event. But that that point it may as well be onmessage. Hmm.
  518. # [17:59] <annevk> So the annoying thing is that everywhere else the message event protocol avoids branching inside the handler
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  520. # [17:59] <annevk> Do service workers already use self.onmessage for something?
  521. # [18:00] <annevk> I wouldn't mind clientmessage to signify its uniqueness, but hmm
  522. # [18:00] <JakeA> annevk: serviceWorker.postMessage ends up there
  523. # [18:00] <annevk> I gotta go, will have more time during the weekend and beyond
  524. # [18:00] <JakeA> That part is similar to dedicated workers
  525. # [18:00] <annevk> Well yes, currently
  526. # [18:00] <JakeA> have a good weekend!
  527. # [18:01] <JakeA> I have a deskbeer so I'm completely useless now
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  532. # [18:09] <annevk> you too, but sounds like you started already :-)
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  580. # [21:06] <dglazkov> is there something better than lists.w3.org and less smarmy-adsy than Nabble to link to public-webapps discussions?
  581. # [21:07] <bkardell> annevk: you here?
  582. # [21:08] <Domenic> dglazkov: readable-email.org was trying for a while but seems to have not kept up with recent messages :(
  583. # [21:08] <Domenic> dglazkov: oh it seems to have caught up since last I saw it hmm
  584. # [21:08] <dglazkov> that was the best :(
  585. # [21:08] <dglazkov> oh?
  586. # [21:09] <dglazkov> whoa
  587. # [21:11] <tantek> dglazkov - why not post such "emails" on your own site, and only a copy to mailing lists?
  588. # [21:11] <dglazkov> tantek: trying to do the other way around -- excavate old email threads
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  592. # [21:18] <bkardell> does it worry anyone that we're shipping prollyfills as prollyfills before they are out of flags or we even have good signals from all the browsers?
  593. # [21:18] <bkardell> arg... shipping prollyfills as polyfills
  594. # [21:19] <bkardell> shouldn't we be more careful about that? otherwise, what's the point in dev'ing them outside a flag?
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  596. # [21:21] <smaug____> bkardell: well, who is shipping
  597. # [21:23] <bkardell> smaug___: when I say "we" I mean anyone :) Is it a bad idea
  598. # [21:23] <smaug____> and what do you actually mean. If prollyfill ends up implementing something which never get then implemented after all, users can still use that prollyfill, right?
  599. # [21:24] <smaug____> and then it is just a script library exposing random API not implemented anywhere
  600. # [21:24] <bkardell> smaug___: yes! the problem is what if it doesn't match
  601. # [21:24] <smaug____> s/implemented/implemented natively/
  602. # [21:24] <bkardell> this is a pattern that needs advice/discussion imo
  603. # [21:24] <bkardell> https://github.com/github/fetch for example - I'm seeing a hella lot of people using that
  604. # [21:25] <smaug____> ah, and then implementations will do something a bit different, and the prollyfill implementation is behind the native implementations ?
  605. # [21:25] <bkardell> but I dont know that we've had any signals from ms or apple at all - say for example - a change is necessary somewhere
  606. # [21:25] <smaug____> right
  607. # [21:25] <bkardell> yes, basically we've seen this happen a buncha times
  608. # [21:25] <bkardell> array contains?
  609. # [21:26] <bkardell> same deal
  610. # [21:26] <smaug____> it would be indeed interesting to hear more feedback from MS and Apple to ServiceWorkers
  611. # [21:26] <bkardell> in the case of fetch promises are kinda done deal, so why not just ._fetch()
  612. # [21:26] <bkardell> if it works for you today it will work for you tomorrow - probably better since browsers tend to get better
  613. # [21:27] <bkardell> if you get lucky, remove the _
  614. # [21:27] <bkardell> or alias it with native
  615. # [21:27] <bkardell> was thinking of sending that feedback, esp since it is now listed on ft labs polyfill service
  616. # [21:27] <bkardell> I think that is sending mixed messages and creating an issue that is easily avoided
  617. # [21:28] <bkardell> am I making too much of nothing?
  618. # [21:28] <tantek> bkardell: what's the worst that could happen? storage? appcache?
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  620. # [21:29] <bkardell> tantek: how is appcache related?
  621. # [21:29] <tantek> just a couple of problematic APIs off the top of my head
  622. # [21:29] <tantek> *local storage
  623. # [21:29] <bkardell> ah
  624. # [21:29] <smaug____> storage and appcache were both real things
  625. # [21:29] <bkardell> no I am thinking more like Array.prototype.contains
  626. # [21:29] <smaug____> which the later were noticed to be rather bad ones
  627. # [21:29] <smaug____> then
  628. # [21:30] <bkardell> ES had to change it at the last minute because you can't - you'll break web stuff
  629. # [21:30] <tantek> bkardell: then could prollyfills help avoid the "later noticed" problem and notice sooner when APIs are bad?
  630. # [21:30] <bkardell> tantek: sure, you could - that's part of the idea
  631. # [21:31] <bkardell> tantek: like, we put native implementations behind a flag - we used to prefix them - to tell people "these are experimental"
  632. # [21:31] <bkardell> but we found that that is a footgun
  633. # [21:31] <bkardell> a prollyfill is a way to stride the chasm
  634. # [21:31] <smaug____> I guess it is mainly about when one can think some API is "stable"
  635. # [21:31] <smaug____> and that depends on who to ask
  636. # [21:32] <bkardell> yeah, and it's kinda what I'm saying... it's about managing risk and I dont know how risky it is in this particular case
  637. # [21:32] <tantek> smaug____: clearly "stable" != good
  638. # [21:32] <bkardell> I do know though that there's no signals at all from apple and ms has, according to chrome status, given mixed signals
  639. # [21:32] <tantek> or not necessarily
  640. # [21:32] <smaug____> tantek: indeed, but stable is usually something browsers ends up shipping
  641. # [21:33] <smaug____> we haven't removed that many APIs
  642. # [21:33] <bkardell> but especially in this case, it seems easy to avoid the worst risk
  643. # [21:33] <bkardell> by just saying underscore the prollyfill
  644. # [21:33] <bkardell> since it's api has no complex intertwined dependencies, it's basically one method
  645. # [21:34] <bkardell> so... is it crazy to suggest that? am I tilting at windmills needlessly?
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  647. # [21:37] <bkardell> it feels like so close to really good - if it goes wrong, that will be sad
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  649. # [21:38] <JonathanNeal> bkardell: what about ft polyfill? =)
  650. # [21:38] <bkardell> good! you are on!
  651. # [21:38] <bkardell> read above
  652. # [21:39] <JonathanNeal> i did, but i didn’t follow the conversation.
  653. # [21:39] <bkardell> starting http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20150206#l-592
  654. # [21:40] <bkardell> is it still unclear?
  655. # [21:40] <JonathanNeal> Yea, polyfill is pretty aggressive, but unlike browsers, users can stick to one version of an api.
  656. # [21:41] <bkardell> they can until there is a true version which claims to be the same version
  657. # [21:41] <bkardell> right?
  658. # [21:41] <JonathanNeal> It would be like if you could ‘use strict 1.5.2’; in js.
  659. # [21:41] <bkardell> that will present a problem
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  661. # [21:41] <bkardell> say the draft today says the api should look like foo(x, y)
  662. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> Yea … you are touching on something I wanted to see, which is levels of polyfill compliance.
  663. # [21:42] <bkardell> well, this is pretty simple to avoid - just use ._fetch
  664. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> You’re not really using a polyfill as a polyfill then.
  665. # [21:43] <bkardell> I'm suggesting simply we dont claim to be the real thing until we can say for sure what the real thing is
  666. # [21:43] <bkardell> it's not a polyfill
  667. # [21:43] <bkardell> its a prollyfill
  668. # [21:43] <bkardell> the lack of distinction is the part that worries me
  669. # [21:43] <JonathanNeal> bkardell: we never claim, we wait for a spec, and the only difference between a prollyfill and a polyfill is an implementation not behind a flag.
  670. # [21:44] <JonathanNeal> i know because i usually write prollyfills before a spec exists, but I’ve protected myself from allowing them into the project until I see a spec. .closest was a good example.
  671. # [21:44] <bkardell> you're misreading my point, I'm not saying you claim as in you state it in words
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  673. # [21:45] <JonathanNeal> You mean, we treat prollyfills and polyfills the same, and people are probably leveraging prollyfills (instead of just polyfills) more and more?
  674. # [21:45] <bkardell> JonathanNeal: no, that's a good thing - it's what I want... I just want them to do it safely. Appearance in a spec definitely does not mean that that is what we will get
  675. # [21:45] <JonathanNeal> And that’s dangerous if the functionality changes between the prollyfill and the real thing?
  676. # [21:45] <bkardell> yes!
  677. # [21:46] <bkardell> not just dangerous in code though - browsers and standards care
  678. # [21:46] <JonathanNeal> Yea. The problem with prefixing apis is that people never unprefix them.
  679. # [21:46] <bkardell> doesn't matter if you unprefix fetch or not in this case, does it?
  680. # [21:47] <JonathanNeal> Unless every api some kind of .spec or .lastUpdated key we could reference to know whether or not we should use native functionality.
  681. # [21:47] <bkardell> if you were so lucky as to have it match then you could simply say _fetch = fetch; and be done
  682. # [21:47] <JonathanNeal> Alternatively, I see people doing very complex tests before a polyfills to determine if the polyfill should deploy.
  683. # [21:48] <bkardell> I dont understand why that matters tho... that's about browsers prefixing which they have basically agreed to stop doing and put behind a flag for basically this reason
  684. # [21:49] <JonathanNeal> Yea, but when the functionality is really desired, the moment it appears in a spec, we’re gonna get an issue filed to include it.
  685. # [21:49] <bkardell> if you write code that uses an experimental thing, but you also provide the experimental implementation (prollyfill) you can go about your day - job done
  686. # [21:49] <bkardell> so include it, I love that!
  687. # [21:49] <JonathanNeal> Same for when something changes, it’s within hours.
  688. # [21:49] <bkardell> just asking that we do _fetch or something instead of .fetch
  689. # [21:49] <bkardell> at least until we're pretty sure
  690. # [21:49] <JonathanNeal> yea but what if the name changes.
  691. # [21:49] <bkardell> what name changes?
  692. # [21:49] <JonathanNeal> _fetch becomes _get or something
  693. # [21:50] <bkardell> do you want to take this privately or is anyone else interested?
  694. # [21:50] <JonathanNeal> _has becomes _contains, etc.
  695. # [21:50] <JonathanNeal> I don’t have a solution, but I think the problem you are describing is a big web question.
  696. # [21:50] <lerc> Did the canvas on worker porposal go anywhere? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0199.html
  697. # [21:51] <JonathanNeal> In a world with evergreen browsers, who’s going to wait for native functionality anymore?
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  702. # [22:03] <Domenic> People who don't want to wait for stuff to go through standardization before using it
  703. # [22:03] <Domenic> i.e., the "why can't I track steps using a web app" problem
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  706. # [22:10] <bkardell> Domenic: Are you under the impression that that is what I am suggesting in some way?
  707. # [22:11] <Domenic> bkardell: nope, just responding to JonathanNeal's perspective.
  708. # [22:11] <Domenic> s/perspective/question
  709. # [22:15] <bkardell> Domenic: Yeah, that would have suprised me :)
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