/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-02-20 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Feb 20 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:39] <MikeSmith> about the fact that Blink and WebKit don't conform to the WebIDL requirement to expose DOM attributes as getters/setters of prototypes, what real-world differences in practice does that make for web developers?
# [00:40] <MikeSmith> as far as how devs actually program to the APIs
# [00:40] <MikeSmith> I guess it at least affects the case where somebody's monkey-patching the prototype?
# [00:41] <MikeSmith> or not really?
# [00:42] <MikeSmith> anyway it doesn't seem like that difference is a pain point for web devs to the point where any have taken time to complain about it
# [00:44] <MikeSmith> so I wonder what real problems if any it's causing in practice
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# [00:50] <Domenic> MikeSmith: yes it affects monkey patching pretty drastically
# [00:50] <Domenic> e.g. the shadow DOM polyfill has to monkey-patch all the constructors to produce instances with overwritten methods, instead of just monkey-patching the methods directly
# [00:50] <Domenic> and even that doesn't catch instances that come from the browser itself
# [00:51] <Domenic> so you have ot patch all methods that access e.g. Nodes and patch those nodes before the author sees them
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# [00:51] <Domenic> it's pretty disastrous
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# [00:51] <Domenic> (and slow)
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# [00:55] <MikeSmith> oh
# [00:55] <MikeSmith> Domenic: thanks yeah I see now
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# [00:56] <MikeSmith> so I guess I'm now a bit surprised that more polyfill/library authors haven't complained about this more
# [00:56] <MikeSmith> or maybe they have and I just wasn't paying attention
# [00:57] <smaug____> now we need to convince only webkit to handle attributes properly
# [00:57] <MikeSmith> anyway I guess the other elephant in the room on this is what plans does the WebKit team have if any for fixing this in WebKit
# [00:57] <MikeSmith> smaug____: coke jinx
# [00:59] <MikeSmith> smaug____: I wonder if there's even an open WebKit bug for it
# [01:00] <smaug____> I'm pretty sure I've seen such
# [01:00] <smaug____> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49739
# [01:01] <TabAtkins> We were trying to fix it pre-fork. I assume people on that side are also at least somewhat interested in fixing it.
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> Problem is that we micro-optimized ourself into a corner, so it's hard to fix without perf regressions on popular benchmarks.
# [01:02] <smaug____> especially now if blink has the fix too
# [01:03] <smaug____> I could be wrong, but I think bz got gecko's attribute handling performance to be between webkit and blink while those two were using the wrong attribute setup, and gecko had the one spec'ed
# [01:04] <smaug____> (IIRC webkit is the fastest, at least in some microbenchmarks )
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# [01:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I hope the lesson has been learned about avoiding that "micro-optimized ourself into a corner" trap, so that another 5-year saga like this one doesn't end up happening again
# [01:24] <MikeSmith> smaug____: thanks
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# [01:41] <Domenic> I am fuzzy on the details but I kind of remember recent WebKit releases doing halfway steps on this
# [01:41] <Domenic> e.g. now they return getter/setters on introspection, but those getter/setters are very broken
# [01:42] <Domenic> so if we interpret that optimistically then they are probably trying to move toward a fix
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# [01:51] <MikeSmith> Domenic: yeah there are some details along those lines in comments of the https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49739 bug that smaug cited
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# [01:51] <MikeSmith> and at https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=141585
# [01:51] <MikeSmith> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140575
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# [01:55] <caitp-> [18:40] <MikeSmith> I guess it at least affects the case where somebody's monkey-patching the prototype? << i brought up the webidl question because of a library being broken in webkit, assuming that little conversation followed from that
# [01:55] <MikeSmith> caitp-: ah ok
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# [07:27] <strugee> Hixie: ping
# [07:27] <strugee> we were going to talk about developers.whatwg.org?
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# [07:52] <annevk> espadrine: that's a bug
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# [07:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: status of converting DOM?
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# [09:02] <annevk> Domenic: I think the strategy of forever pending and maybe adding rejecting later is okay, though bz brings up a valid point
# [09:03] <annevk> Domenic: "[I]s this sufficient to actually build a browser on top of fetch? How is the browser expected to implement things like the stop button or the request-killing on navigation, if not by effectively calling terminate() on all the fetches involved?"
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# [10:59] <annevk> hsivonen: your last tweet fails at grammar
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# [11:36] <Seplonger> ...
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# [12:03] <annevk> I should maybe write a post about CORS since the amount of people not grokking the same-origin policy is disturbing
# [12:10] <JakeA> annevk: are you around this evening for a call about SW clients & postmessage? Monday otherwise?
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# [13:22] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, can do, though I don't really have any new thoughts
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# [13:54] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, TabAtkins sold his house in Texas, IIRC
# [13:54] <SimonSapin> oh, I see
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# [14:15] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah. it's annoying when a tweet becomes nonsensical due to proof reading failure after editing for 140 characters
# [14:16] <hsivonen> annevk: also annoying to notice it after it has a reply
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# [14:46] * hemanth : Superfluous Patterns of Javascript -> http://h3manth.com/new/blog/2015/superfluous-patterns-of-javascript/
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# [16:14] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: ??? What's the relevance of my house?
# [16:15] <TabAtkins> Never mind, I see.
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# [16:25] <JonathanNeal> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-loading/ Is there a friendly guide out there to using this? I have a knack for hanging the entire browser when I pass a second parameter into new FontFace
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# [16:28] <JonathanNeal> A third parameter, rather. e.g. new FontFace(family, source, descriptor); where name is “Balto”, source is ‘local(“Balto”)’ and descriptor is { weight: ‘bold’ }. Totally hangs the page. Is it the browser, or am I not following the spec?
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# [17:41] <terinjokes> JakeA: just checking in to make sure you locked yourself in a room and wrote your talk
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# [17:52] <JakeA> terinjokes: I'm still massively behind, so I'll be working the weekend :/
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# [17:55] <terinjokes> JakeA: bummer, but no worries
# [17:56] <Domenic> annevk: OK, that makes me want to add rejectWith out of the gate
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# [18:02] <JakeA> Domenic: I did some mental flailing around fetchPromise https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/625#issuecomment-75217729 - am I anywhere near?
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# [18:11] <annevk> Domenic: hah
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# [18:32] <caitp-> what ever happened to the network infor api?
# [18:32] <caitp-> fell off the face of the earth?
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# [18:32] <tantek> overdesigned to the point of bloat death?
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# [18:33] <caitp-> looks pretty small as these things go, actually
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# [18:36] <annevk> The use cases were not compelling I believe
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# [18:36] <annevk> Been a while
# [18:37] <Hixie> strugee: here onw
# [18:37] <Hixie> now
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# [18:40] <caitp-> annevk it looks like it's implemented perfectly happy on mobile devices, are you saying service worker was probably a better approach?
# [18:40] <tantek> annevk - the simple common use-case is, don't burn my mobile data with background network updates and crap.
# [18:41] <tantek> ergo, the simple v0 API should be a boolean - navigator.NetworkInfo.IsMetered()
# [18:41] <Hixie> annevk: btw did you see the web intents post-mortem post?
# [18:41] <tantek> but noooooooo, people had to go and add all kinds of lower level plumbing details that frankly no real world web app builder actually cares about.
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# [18:43] <tantek> note that latest Android OS has this exact boolean feature for app devs, INCLUDING, a UI for users to toggle whether any particular wifi SSID is metered or not.
# [18:43] <tantek> that really is all you need to cover the common use-case noted above. and that's all that a v0 network info api should include, ship, get interop on.
# [18:43] <tantek> shove all the rest of the net info details to the next version
# [18:44] <caitp-> that does seem pretty reasonable
# [18:44] <annevk> Hixie: from Paul? I did
# [18:44] <Hixie> annevk: cool
# [18:44] <tantek> catip - it's too reasonable to actually succeed in a discussion beyond 2-3 people.
# [18:44] <annevk> Hixie: having said that, I still haven't really cracked a flow that works well
# [18:44] <tantek> then everyone starts yanking out their pet armchair dev requirements / wishlists etc.
# [18:44] <annevk> Hixie: one of the big problems is also convincing service providers that they want decentralization
# [18:44] <Hixie> annevk: heh yeah
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# [18:45] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. I Facebook and Twitter and such seem quite content with all the promotion across millions of properties
# [18:45] <caitp-> well, you probably don't need to care exactly how your connection works, but you probably want to have some idea of whether it's a weak or strong connection
# [18:45] <annevk> s/I//
# [18:46] <caitp-> i can see people wanting that :>
# [18:47] <tantek> catip - "can see people wanting" is a horrible way to design anything
# [18:47] <annevk> Hixie: perhaps the way out is continuing to provide easy ways for sites to collaborate and share data client-side and hope patterns emerge
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# [18:47] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, i dunno. just thought it was an interesting and candid post-mortem.
# [18:47] <Hixie> annevk: with good lessons.
# [18:47] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. cross-origin workers, the service worker to service worker messaging
# [18:48] <annevk> Hixie: yeah, that was real cool of him
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# [18:55] <Domenic> JakeA: on my to-do list for today :)
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# [19:02] <JakeA> Domenic: no rush, I'm sure it's full of fundamental misunderstandings
# [19:04] <jgraham> Anyone know anything about the Chromium CI setup?
# [19:04] <jgraham> Specifically which servers / ports are avaliable / default
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# [19:28] <TabAtkins> tantek: Some apps on my phone act differently on wifi vs cell, even when both are unmetered.
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# [19:29] <tantek> TabAtkins - interesting. which apps, and do you know how they tell? (i.e. do they measure the bandwidth, do they query a proprietary API?)
# [19:29] <tantek> and what different behavior(s)?
# [19:29] <annevk> TabAtkins: DOM ping?
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: If you're getting browser hangs for any reason, it's a bug. In your partiucular case, it's *definitely* a bug.
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> tantek: G+ gives me the option to only photo-sync while on wifi.
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> annevk: Gonna try to finish today. :/ If you have any edits you need to make, though, feel free; I'll take the merge pain myself.
# [19:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: nah, I'll be patient
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# [19:30] <tantek> TabAtkins: I hope that means non-metered wifi, otherwise it's still a problem
# [19:31] <annevk> TabAtkins: though with continued nagging :p
# [19:31] <TabAtkins> I mean, I guess it matters what you mean by "metered". I don't pay per Mb or anything, but I do have a 2.5Gb/month limit.
# [19:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: That works too. ^_^
# [19:31] <TabAtkins> tantek: And yes, wifi is non-metered.
# [19:33] <caitp-> well, it depends
# [19:33] <caitp-> sometimes paid wifi gives you N megabytes, sometimes N minutes
# [19:34] <caitp-> you wouldn't want to waste bandwidth on stuff you don't need
# [19:37] <annevk> JakeA: Domenic: thanks for laying the groundwork on all the subclassing questions
# [19:37] <tantek> TabAtkins: cool. Do you have that preference panel where you can toggle a switch next to each SSID as to whether it is metered or not?
# [19:37] <JakeA> annevk: I'm all about the questions. Answers… not so much
# [19:38] <tantek> I think it's in the latest Android OS update
# [19:38] <tantek> (pretty new)
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> annevk: So I was thinking about terminate() again, and I think GTOR is right - a cancelable thing is a Task, not a Promise. Luckily, a Task is a Promise subclass (I think it's literally a Liskov subclass, but even if not, it ducktypes as such).
# [19:38] <tantek> caipt - correct on both accounts
# [19:38] <annevk> JakeA: FWIW, with regards to AbortablePromise, the idea was to have FetchPromise and terminate() as method, and then introduce the more generic variant as a class inbetween later
# [19:38] <tantek> caitp
# [19:38] <JakeA> wfm
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# [19:38] <TabAtkins> All this really means is that chaining off of a Task returns Promises; you need a separate explicitly cloning method to return a Task with the same special abilities as the original one.
# [19:39] <TabAtkins> So yeah, FetchPromise.then() returns a Promise, nice and easy.
# [19:39] <annevk> TabAtkins: interesting idea
# [19:39] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm not sure that's how promise subclasses work though
# [19:39] <JakeA> It isn't
# [19:39] <JakeA> at the moment
# [19:40] <annevk> TabAtkins: don't they do new this.constructor for .then()?
# [19:40] <TabAtkins> tantek: No, I have no such toggle.
# [19:40] <JakeA> They get their constructor from @@species, so I guess FetchPromise could set its @@species to Promise
# [19:40] <TabAtkins> For predictability, though, you should have a way to convert Tasks into Promises; a Task is a Promise you can fuck with, and that's not an ability you want to give out normally.
# [19:40] <tantek> Hmmm… ok then maybe I was looking at something beta. Um ok I won't say on who's device then. TabAtkins perhaps ask a co-worker to see their list of SSIDs preference screen on their Android ;)
# [19:41] <JakeA> But I like the idea of fetch(url).then(r => r.json()) being abortable
# [19:41] <TabAtkins> Not all Promise subclasses are Tasks; most can reconstruct an instance of the same class no problem.
# [19:41] <annevk> JakeA: I guess you'd have to do fetch(url).specialThen(...) instead
# [19:41] <annevk> JakeA: if we adopt this Task idea
# [19:41] <TabAtkins> If we wanna be decent about the theoretics of this, yeah.
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> Rather than munging everything up and having trouble later when we want to do something more principled.
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> (It's the difference between piping and broadcasting in Stream.)
# [19:42] <annevk> otoh, tasks could also have a cloning .then(), and a .promise() for discarding responsibility...
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's another way. Depends on how you want the "default" behavior to work.
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> Either way is defensible.
# [19:45] <JakeA> So are we losing the ability for `var p = fetch(url1).then(_ => fetch(url2));` then later `p.abort()` to abort whichever request(s) are in flight?
# [19:45] <JakeA> (not I'm particularly against that, just trying to understand)
# [19:45] <TabAtkins> JakeA: You wouldn't be losing it regardless; question is just how you want the default semantics to work.
# [19:45] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, though; I didn't know that the p1=>p2 aborting was a thing to preserve.
# [19:46] <TabAtkins> Though monadically that seems okay.
# [19:47] <JakeA> TabAtkins: This is just my mental flailing. Posted a finger-in-the-air set of expectations at https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/625#issuecomment-75217729
# [19:47] <annevk> JakeA: for case 3 the expectation is that the promise is instead forever pending
# [19:47] <TabAtkins> Let's assume that .then still returns a Task, and .promise() returns a Promise of it (losing the special abilities to fuck with the result). Then when .then() is combining a second FetchTask into the first, it can combine permissions, so that aborting one aborts all.
# [19:48] <annevk> JakeA: not rejected due to canceling
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# [19:48] <JakeA> annevk: so cancelling doesn't reject?
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# [19:49] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, the desired default seems to be to not reject
# [19:49] <annevk> JakeA: if you want to reject, use p.terminate({rejectWith: "heya"})
# [19:49] <TabAtkins> Case 3 seems slightly non-intuitive, and difficult to do. It requires tasks to control down-stream tasks too; we're now talking more of a stream than a promise.
# [19:50] <JakeA> annevk: so an "await p" would just hang forever. That isn't what I'd expect but I haven't really thought it through
# [19:51] <annevk> JakeA: https://annevankesteren.nl/2015/02/cancelable-promises has a summary and pointers
# [19:51] <JakeA> TabAtkins: is you want to cast a promise subclass to a normal promise, Promise.resolve(subclassPromise) is the current way
# [19:51] <TabAtkins> JakeA: Well, until the method got aborted.
# [19:51] <TabAtkins> JakeA: All right.
# [19:56] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, ok, I think that makes sense. I've actually got some hacky code in SVGOMG because of promises that reject following aborting https://github.com/jakearchibald/svgomg/blob/9d23d77e389d62beb7acd16413a13328e568bdfd/src/js/page/main-controller.js#L217
# [20:01] <annevk> JakeA: hah, that's exactly Domenic's prediction
# [20:01] <annevk> JakeA: people writing if(e instanceof CancelableError) return
# [20:03] <Domenic> @@species returns this so it automatically will return FetchPromise
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# [20:03] <JakeA> annevk: However, I do want to stop a spinner on cancellation, which pending forever won't support
# [20:03] <Domenic> To convert tasks to promises do Promise.resolve(task)
# [20:04] <JakeA> Problem with @@species is you lose the link to the original fetch, since @@species is got from this.constructor rather than this
# [20:04] <annevk> JakeA: in that case use rejectWith I guess
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> You gotta define a special .then() to get the right behavior, I think.
# [20:06] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, so I'd be back to my if-instanceOf. Hmm
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> So you can set the right internal slots, etc.
# [20:07] <JakeA> TabAtkins: I came to that conclusion in https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/625#issuecomment-75217729 - but feels cleaner if @@species was got from `this`
# [20:07] <JakeA> (and Promise would define it on the prototype chain)
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> But you lose the ability to cancel the fetch, or to combine fetches into a single cancelable thing.
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> Ugh, if you want fetches to stack like that, we really do need to be more strict about it being a Task, and .then() being the Promise-returning method.
# [20:08] <JakeA> Do you? Couldn't this.@@species carry over the state from this
# [20:09] <TabAtkins> Because it's not cool if you chain two separate fetches off of a parent fetch, abort one of the children, and that causes the parent to abort.
# [20:09] <JakeA> I guess it couldn't if it was called as a constructor
# [20:09] <JakeA> hm, that's a good point
# [20:09] <JakeA> Going to add that to the github issue
# [20:09] <TabAtkins> You need to explicitly clone the parent fetch, so it can refcount itself and only abort itself if all the chained fetches abort.
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> Again, this is stream-as-pipe vs stream-as-broadcast. If you want piping-like functionality, gotta be proper about it.
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# [20:11] <TabAtkins> If you try to mix it with the broadcast functionality, you're gonna have confused-deputy/ambient-authority bugs all over the place.
# [20:12] <JakeA> https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/625#issuecomment-75300556
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# [20:25] <Domenic> if (instanceof) seems fine if you're going to do something besides just return and try to ignore it
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# [20:31] <Domenic> TabAtkins: lol "I'd link you, but I think I accidentally killed the spec;"
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# [21:30] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm suddenly confused. DOM appears to have a dom-core.bs file now?
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# [21:30] <TabAtkins> The version I cloned originally only had Overview.src.html and dom-core.html
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# [21:37] <TabAtkins> annevk: I ask because I've been converting Overview.src.html into Overview.bs.
# [21:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, looks like dom-core.bs is just a very light transliteration; not a ton of work went into it. Good.
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# [23:56] <JonathanNeal> Is there a native JS method to enumerate the device fonts? Simulation: http://sandbox.thewikies.com/document.fonts.enumerate/
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# Session Close: Sat Feb 21 00:00:00 2015

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