/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-02-22 / end

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# Session Start: Sun Feb 22 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:17] <TabAtkins> Phew, nearly done with DOM.
# [01:17] <TabAtkins> Only at line 4500, but it moves extremely fast now that most links have been converted.
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> Then there's the slogging task of fixing all the linking failures, which hopefully shouldn't be too long.
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# [02:43] <strugee> Hixie: ping
# [02:43] <Hixie> yo
# [02:43] <strugee> we were going to discuss developers.whatwg.org
# [02:43] <Hixie> yesyes
# [02:44] <strugee> ok
# [02:44] <strugee> so
# [02:44] * strugee looks at the GitHub issue
# [02:46] <strugee> hmm
# [02:47] <strugee> so how complex is your script?
# [02:47] <strugee> do you actually have to parse the entire document into a DOM-like structure, or can you parse individual parts?
# [02:49] <Hixie> i parse the entire thing into a dom
# [02:49] <Hixie> then do extensive manipulations on it
# [02:49] <Hixie> then serialise it back out
# [02:50] <strugee> right
# [02:50] <strugee> but do you actually need to?
# [02:50] <Hixie> what would constitute a need to?
# [02:50] <Hixie> i mean, i dunno how to answer that question
# [02:50] <Hixie> the code to do it is http://software.hixie.ch/applications/wattsi/src/wattsi.pas
# [02:51] <strugee> e.g. to change the <title> you could find the beginning and end of <head> and parse that, then change <title>
# [02:51] <strugee> so you wouldn't have to parse the entire document
# [02:51] <strugee> ok, thanks for the link
# [02:51] <Hixie> how do you "find the beginning and end of <head>" without parsing it?
# [02:52] <Hixie> (the code above isn't quite complete, there's also some glue perl code that isn't published anywhere)
# [02:52] <Hixie> (but the heavy lifting is in that file)
# [02:53] <strugee> you just search for the keyword "<head>" in the string
# [02:53] <strugee> obviously that doesn't work on arbitrary documents but since the source is in a known state I think we can get away with it
# [02:53] <strugee> unless I'm doing something dumb?
# [02:54] <Hixie> i mean, i don't guarantee that i won't change that to <head class="draft"> or something
# [02:55] <Hixie> in particular, i don't see how that would work for the headings and cross-references
# [02:55] <Hixie> which are all over the place
# [02:55] <strugee> so use the keyword "<head" instead of "<head>"
# [02:55] <strugee> ok, that was what I was asking
# [02:55] <Hixie> i don't guarantee i won't spell it "<HEAD" or remove the tag and rely on it being implied
# [02:55] <strugee> right
# [02:55] <Hixie> who knows what i'll be doing 10 years from now :-)
# [02:56] * strugee chuckles
# [02:56] <strugee> ok, scratch that idea :)
# [02:56] <strugee> are you familiar with Node.js streams?
# [02:56] <strugee> that was what I was trying to make it fit into
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# [02:57] <Hixie> i'm not very familiar with Node.js
# [02:57] <Hixie> only done one project in it and it was a while ago
# [02:57] <strugee> ok
# [02:57] <strugee> the basic idea is that you do transforms on a stream of text instead of a string
# [02:58] <Hixie> i mean i'm familiar with the idea of streams in general
# [02:58] <Hixie> they're not new :-)
# [02:58] <strugee> right :)
# [02:58] <Hixie> i don't think you can use a one-pass approach with this though, since the cross-references go both ways
# [02:59] <strugee> ok
# [02:59] <strugee> makes sense
# [02:59] <Hixie> i mean, at the most basic level, if you want to output the table of contents at the start, you need to have seen the last heading before you output the table of contents
# [02:59] <strugee> yeah
# [03:00] <strugee> I wonder if you could collect all the footnotes, headers, etc. in one pass and then write them in in a second
# [03:01] <strugee> if worst comes to worse I can just buffer the document and parse
# [03:01] <Hixie> well, html parsing as a general case is a non-streaming operation
# [03:02] <Hixie> but you can probably assume that i don't rely on things like bogus table parsing and so skip those parts
# [03:02] <Hixie> i guess
# [03:02] <Hixie> writing an html parser using the spec's built-in model is a pretty large task as it is
# [03:03] <Hixie> writing one in another model entirely is a whole extra level of pain
# [03:03] <Hixie> since you have to be able to reason about all the implications
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# [03:05] <strugee> yeah, no kidding
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# [03:08] <strugee> hmm
# [03:09] <Hixie> that's why i was saying you really want an off-the-shelf parser if you're not relying on the output of mine
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# [03:10] <Hixie> (though it has to be a pretty configurable one since i add a new void element)
# [03:10] <Hixie> (and a bunch of attributes)
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# [03:11] <Hixie> the alternative is you tell me what the output should be and i just generate it
# [03:11] <strugee> ok
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# [03:12] <Hixie> i mean, i already generate https://html.spec.whatwg.org/.wattsi-output/multipage-dev/
# [03:12] <Hixie> which is pretty close, i'd wager
# [03:12] <Hixie> that output would be very regular html
# [03:12] <Hixie> which you could then massage more easily
# [03:12] <Hixie> if you wanted to
# [03:15] <strugee> ok
# [03:15] <strugee> yeah, that would be nice
# [03:16] <strugee> what's done to that version?
# [03:16] <strugee> transform to HTML and strip non-dev content?
# [03:16] <strugee> if so then I think we'd just need to insert styles and fix the title
# [03:17] <strugee> or not even the title, since I think that's done already in the source
# [03:17] <Hixie> what should the style link be?
# [03:20] <Hixie> i've added a <link> to styles.css in the same directory
# [03:20] <Hixie> want some <script src=""> too?
# [03:20] <Hixie> and anything else?
# [03:21] <Hixie> the old developers.w.o version had some different handling of references
# [03:21] <Hixie> i'm happy to do something with that too
# [03:22] <strugee> yeah, I think we'll need scripts
# [03:22] <strugee> I can take care of minifying it into one file
# [03:22] <strugee> so just a scripts.js in the root would be fine, I think
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# [03:27] <strugee> I'm getting 404 on https://html.spec.whatwg.org/.wattsi-output/multipage-dev/
# [03:28] <strugee> and https://html.spec.whatwg.org/.wattsi-output/ shows a directory listing with nothing in it
# [03:29] <Hixie> yeah the caniuse.json data is broken
# [03:29] <Hixie> which is breaking my script
# [03:31] <strugee> ok
# [03:31] <strugee> so when that's fixed, stuff will magically appear in that directory?
# [03:32] <Hixie> yeah
# [03:32] <Hixie> well
# [03:32] <Hixie> not when caniuse.json is fixed
# [03:32] <Hixie> but when i work around it
# [03:32] <Hixie> in a few minutes
# [03:32] <Hixie> i tried deleting the file
# [03:32] <Hixie> and my script was unhappy
# [03:33] <Hixie> man my script really freaking wants real data in this file
# [03:33] <Hixie> hm this file isn't broken, wtf
# [03:33] <Hixie> maybe there's a bug in my json parser
# [03:34] <Hixie> something fishy going on
# [03:35] <strugee> ok
# [03:35] <strugee> keep me posted
# [03:36] <Hixie> wt_f_
# [03:36] <Hixie> wget is screwing me
# [03:38] <Hixie> $ wget -o /dev/null -O caniuse.json --no-check-certificate https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Fyrd/caniuse/master/data.json
# [03:38] <Hixie> $ wget -o /dev/null -O caniuse2.json --no-check-certificate https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Fyrd/caniuse/master/data.json
# [03:38] <Hixie> $ sha512sum caniuse*
# [03:38] <Hixie> 10acc62e0124195a1378b1ea79a91db4f13d861629afdcf76a928c2e7b359a890cdc0d5ee261d138aa4a86544b8b648a4cd44cdb610a7391fdddda861594b688 caniuse2.json
# [03:38] <Hixie> 805859fcdf2d05c06e3f35a0bc7f539d7dbe02d613c06dc4475592bd5e9204161a659573edfff96ae0121c00bbcd3fa89d1802fbd07507714e180c4ffbd673cc caniuse.json
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# [03:42] <strugee> it couldn't be changing that fast, could it?
# [03:42] <Hixie> no
# [03:42] <Hixie> no idea what's up
# [03:42] <strugee> let me try
# [03:44] <Hixie> it worked once i nuked the existing file on disk a second time
# [03:44] <Hixie> dunno what's up with THAT
# [03:44] <Hixie> wget trying to do some sort of completion or something
# [03:44] <strugee> _weird_
# [03:44] <strugee> mine match, by the way
# [03:44] <strugee> I did it with curl
# [03:44] <Hixie> mine too, now. :-/
# [03:44] <Hixie> anyway, look now
# [03:44] <strugee> ok
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# [03:46] <strugee> ok, fantastic
# [03:47] <strugee> by the way, what's link-fixup.js?
# [03:47] <strugee> it's 404ing in my console when I load multipage-dev/
# [03:48] <Hixie> handles breaking links
# [03:48] <Hixie> try html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/#the-canvas-element
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# [03:48] <strugee> s/multipage/multipage-dev/?
# [03:51] <Hixie> in theory it works for the multipage-dev version too
# [03:51] <strugee> nevermind
# [03:51] <Hixie> but i was giving you an example of it working on the spec multipage version
# [03:51] <strugee> no, I see what you were saying now
# [03:52] <caitp> is there any reason why the single page version exists? you can't find anything on it anyway
# [03:52] <strugee> are you talking about submission thing at the bottom?
# [03:52] <caitp> 99/100 times, cmd+f yields nothing useful
# [03:53] <caitp> not that trying to find anything in the multipage version is any better
# [03:53] <caitp> you need like a dxr for the spec
# [03:54] <strugee> or we should put the built version in Git or something so you can grep it
# [03:55] <caitp> eh but then i'd have to keep a fork of it
# [03:55] <strugee> *shrugs* set up some automation
# [03:57] <Hixie> we have a copy in git, for the record :-)
# [03:57] <Hixie> on github
# [03:58] <Hixie> why does cmd+f not work for you? is your browser broken?
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# [04:09] <strugee> all right, laptop's dying
# [04:09] <strugee> Hixie: it's been a pleasure
# [04:09] <strugee> I'll ping you on GitHub or something if I need anything else
# [04:09] <Hixie> np. keep me posted about what you want.
# [04:10] <strugee> thanks!
# [04:10] <caitp__> it's not that the browser is broken, it's that A) the document is too large, B) there are too many references to key phrases, C) many of the references don't lead anywhere useful, or lead to the references section, which in turn leads nowhere useful
# [04:10] <caitp__> it's basically organized really badly
# [04:11] <caitp__> a dxr would help a lot
# [04:11] <caitp__> cross referencing the referenced specs, and not all being a client-side operation
# [04:11] <caitp__> would make it a lot easier to work with
# [04:12] <Hixie> if there are problems, file bugs with concrete suggestions
# [04:12] <Hixie> cos "it's basically organized really badly" is really unactionable given that i've spent the last 11 years organising it as best as i can :-)
# [04:13] <Hixie> more or less full-time :-)
# [04:13] <caitp__> "dxr" is a pretty concrete suggestion, I think
# [04:13] <caitp__> server-side spec searching and cross-referencing, that's pretty concrete :p
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# [04:14] <Hixie> i've no idea what you mean by this
# [04:14] <caitp__> huk
# [04:15] <caitp__> okay so the classical example would be, suppose you had to load the entire source tree of chromium into your browser, formatted
# [04:15] <caitp__> that would be a pretty big document, right?
# [04:15] <caitp__> searching it would be hard, expensive, and most of the time wouldn't turn up anything particularly useful
# [04:16] <caitp__> the spec is pretty big, searching it frequently turns up nothing useful
# [04:16] <caitp__> so it would be nice to provide better ways of doing this, and even caching entries for common searches
# [04:17] <Hixie> what are you talking about. searching the spec works great, i do it all the time.
# [04:17] <Hixie> plus every term is cross-referenced in both directions.
# [04:17] <caitp__> mmmm not so much
# [04:17] <Hixie> with a little popup that shows all the references
# [04:17] <caitp__> even doing something as simple as looking up interfaces takes way longer than it should
# [04:17] <Hixie> and i've watched chromium developers, they basically use "grep" which is more or less the same as find-in-page
# [04:18] <Hixie> there's an interface index
# [04:18] <caitp__> grep is faster, but again, means keeping a fork
# [04:19] <Hixie> grep is the same speed as find-in-page
# [04:19] <caitp__> no it really isn't
# [04:20] <Hixie> are you using some ancient browser or something?
# [04:20] <caitp__> no
# [04:21] <caitp__> I mostly use canary on an 8 core machine, but it's not any better with stable, or safari 8, or FF nightly or stable
# [04:21] <caitp__> it's a big document, it loads slowly, and referenced terms link nowhere useful, and unreferenced terms link nowhere
# [04:21] <caitp__> it's not very usable for quickly looking something up
# [04:22] <caitp__> and if I'm on a laptop, forget it =)
# [04:22] <Hixie> for each "referenced terms link nowhere useful" case, file a bug.
# [04:22] <Hixie> saying what you want it to link to.
# [04:23] <Hixie> for "unreferenced terms" i've no idea what you mean
# [04:23] <caitp__> they all lead to the references section, which means A) i lose my place which was very difficult to get to in the first place, and B) don't immediately link to anything useful, just a references section
# [04:23] <caitp__> "unreferenced" eg, not in the references section, no popup, no hyperlink
# [04:23] <caitp__> just text
# [04:23] <Hixie> but for the original complaint, find in page... it's pretty much instantaneous for me. i don't understand the problem.
# [04:23] <Hixie> how is grep faster?
# [04:24] <Hixie> i've no idea what you mean by "they all lead to the references section"
# [04:24] <Hixie> what is "all" here?
# [04:24] <Hixie> i mean there's 4313 <dfn> elements in the document
# [04:24] <Hixie> so quite obviously, not all the cross-references are to the references section
# [04:24] <Hixie> in fact hardly any are
# [04:24] <caitp__> I'm not sure what your language for it is, but a cross-referenced term is typically a link which opens a popup window, with links which lead to a references section at the bottom of the document
# [04:24] <caitp__> and by "typically" I mean always, as far as I can tell
# [04:25] <Hixie> can you give me an example?
# [04:25] <caitp__> pretty much any time I find one, that's what happens :p
# [04:25] <Hixie> ok find one
# [04:25] <Hixie> tell me what it is
# [04:25] <Hixie> i'm at a loss as to what you mean
# [04:25] <Hixie> the only links into the references section i'm aware of are the [FOO] links
# [04:25] <Hixie> which are, well, the links to the references section.
# [04:26] <Hixie> and i don't think any of those do any popups or anything
# [04:26] <Hixie> (there is an open bug on making them more helpful)
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# [04:42] <caitp__> i still prfer the dxr idea
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# [04:50] <Hixie> caitp__: can you give me an example of what you mean? what are these cross-references that aren't useful?
# [04:51] <caitp__> i'm on my laptop, too much to open the single page site
# [04:51] <caitp__> typical experience though, is looking up details on some attribute in an idl interface
# [04:51] <Hixie> the multipage copy has the same links
# [04:51] <caitp__> leads to a references link
# [04:52] <Hixie> so feel free to give me the links from there
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# [04:54] <MikeSmith> I do searches in the single-page spec all the time but I do it from elinks
# [04:54] <MikeSmith> or lynx
# [04:55] <MikeSmith> but I guess that's not a general solution that a lot of other people would be happy with
# [04:56] <MikeSmith> but I'll also agree that trying to load and use the the single-page rendered version in a real browser is not practical
# [04:57] <Hixie> i mean, it's the only way i use the spec
# [04:57] <Hixie> and i do it all the time
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# [05:15] <zewt> i find the multipage one unusable and always use the single page one (broken backrefs are a dealbreaker)
# [05:16] <MikeSmith> I use a 4-year-old laptop most of the time so I guess I should get a faster machine
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# [05:22] <caitp__> i guess everyone has different experiences with it
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# [05:22] <caitp__> online search + fast loading smaller pages would go a long way though, i think
# [05:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i mean, the desktop i use for this is from 2010...
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# [07:25] <zewt> why am i still using chrome? now it's saying "foo.zip may harm your browsing experience, so Chrome has blocked it", and it literally won't let me save the file
# [07:26] <zewt> pretty unbelievable
# [07:28] <caitp__> it just wants you to have the best browsing experience possible and gets a bit carried away
# [07:28] <zewt> by making me download this file twice (because it already downloaded all of it, it just won't save it)
# [07:29] <zewt> at least half a gig isn't as much as it used to be
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# [07:44] <KevinMarks_> Do any implementations of audio or video tags support media fragments in sources?
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# [08:00] <annevk> TabAtkins: well, DOM wasn't built in a day
# [08:07] * annevk uses single-page without a problem too, find in page combined with backreferences is pretty much all I use...
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# [08:37] <TabAtkins> strugee: Please dont' try and do text-based transforms on an HTML document. Just use a real HTML parser and deal with it that way. Python has html5lib; I'm unsure of what standards-compliant parsers exist in JS.
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# [08:43] <annevk> https://github.com/aredridel/html5 perhaps?
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# [08:52] <Domenic> Also parse5
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# [11:30] <strugee> TabAtkins: yeah, I'm off that train. Hixie talked me out of it
# [11:30] <strugee> it wasn't that hard. I didn't hold out much hope that it could work anyway :)
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# [19:05] <annevk> Very hard not to 386 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=999544
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# [23:36] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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# [23:56] * Quits: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jzzxcfwtyzorxhrz) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
# [23:58] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@62-78-246-79.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# Session Close: Mon Feb 23 00:00:00 2015

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