/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-03-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 08 00:00:01 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:13] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@38.140.30.178)
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  6. # [00:21] <ccat> .
  7. # [00:21] * Quits: espadrine (~tyl@srv02.capitainetrain.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  8. # [00:23] <ccat> "Thus, in an HTML document, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") will match FOO elements that are not in the HTML namespace, and foo elements that are in the HTML namespace, but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace."
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  10. # [00:24] <ccat> -- this seems to say that you cannot get HTML elements with uppercase tags -- which seems rather wrong!
  11. # [00:32] <Ms2ger> With document.getElementsByTagName? No
  12. # [00:32] <Ms2ger> Note that <DIV>.localName == 'div'
  13. # [00:36] <ccat> Ms2ger: y, but it says not GET the FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace, and which is what that DIV would be
  14. # [00:36] <Ms2ger> It isn't
  15. # [00:39] <ccat> Ms2ger: why? confused
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  24. # [00:43] <ccat> Ms2ger: so document.getElementsByTagName("DIV") should find nothing if HTML page is all UC ?
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  28. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: 👆
  29. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> ccat: I reckon Ms2ger is sleeping by now
  30. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> or nearly
  31. # [01:08] <ccat> MikeSmith: ok, ty -- want to take over? :)
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  33. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> nope
  34. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> you were just talking to the one guy who could explain it to you better than anybody
  35. # [01:13] <ccat> MikeSmith: : (
  36. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> anyway it's the weekend
  37. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie might roll around at some point but my guess is he's busy doing something else fun
  38. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> so you might have better luck trying again during the hours of overlap between CET/UK time and US/West
  39. # [01:15] <ccat> MikeSmith: ok, ty
  40. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> ccat: anyway you're doing the right thing
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  42. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> there are plenty of places where the wording in the spec could be refined
  43. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> and Hixie cares a lot about making it as clear and unambiguous as possible
  44. # [01:17] <ccat> MikeSmith: found one (above) but this seems like an error -- then again so did the last one!
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  46. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> ccat: in general you're not likely to find errors in the specーnot for this kind of stuff at least
  47. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> so when you find something that looks like an error it's much more likely that the problem is just that the spec needs to be reworded to make it more clear
  48. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> is this the DOM spec or HTML?
  49. # [01:26] <MikeSmith> oh about https://developers.whatwg.org/tabular-data.html#attr-table-sortable yeah that's a mixed-content problem that needs to be fixed
  50. # [01:26] <ccat> https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-getelementsbytagname
  51. # [01:26] <MikeSmith> I can't remember now who took over work on the generating the developer edition
  52. # [01:27] <ccat> me: "it says not GET the FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace, and which is what that DIV would be"
  53. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> ccat: ah yeah so the DOM was written my Ms2ger
  54. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> in part
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  56. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> annevk is writing/maintaining it so you could ask him later too
  57. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> s/the DOM was written my Ms2ger/the DOM was spec written partly by Ms2ger/
  58. # [01:31] <ccat> ok, ty
  59. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> strugee: if you're the one maintaining developers.whatwg.org now, there's a mixed-content problem at https://developers.whatwg.org/tabular-data.html#tabular-data which ccat noticed
  60. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> strugee: "The page at 'https://developers.whatwg.org/tabular-data.html' was loaded over HTTPS, but requested an insecure stylesheet 'http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Droid+Serif:regular,italic,bold'."
  61. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> strugee: seems like that URL cna just be changed to the https equivalent
  62. # [01:37] <ccat> strugee: also insecure pictures
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  66. # [01:52] <smaug____> MikeSmith: you gave me a good laugh: "in general you're not likely to find errors in the spec" :)
  67. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> smaug____: well you know what I mean
  68. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> smaug____: I wouldn't say that to you :)
  69. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> I should have written, "in general unless you're smaug or bz you're not likely to find errors in the spec"
  70. # [01:54] <smaug____> well, I hope everyone implementing something from specs review them first
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  72. # [01:54] <smaug____> but I know that isn't actually happening
  73. # [01:56] <jgraham> ccat: If you parse <FOO> it ends up as <foo> in the DOM
  74. # [01:56] <jgraham> You can only get FOO by using createElementNS
  75. # [01:56] <jgraham> (FOO in the HTML namespace, that is)
  76. # [01:57] <jgraham> So the fact that getElementsByTagName won't find elements that are very difficult to create isn't a problem
  77. # [01:57] <jgraham> Because they ~never actually exist in real pages
  78. # [01:58] <jgraham> smaug____: Nice to know you still have a sense of humour
  79. # [01:58] <ccat> jgraham: :)
  80. # [01:58] <ccat> jgraham: but "spec" says "but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace" , which should mean <FOO>
  81. # [01:58] <caitp> does it ever make you angry that it's so terribel
  82. # [01:58] <caitp> sp
  83. # [01:59] <jgraham> ccat: Yes, but you can only create that using a createElementNS call from the DOM
  84. # [01:59] <jgraham> Every other way of creating HTML elements lowercases them
  85. # [01:59] <ccat> jgraham: what about "<HTML><FOO></HTML> ?
  86. # [02:00] <jgraham> ccat: That is identical to <html><foo></html> -> it gets lowercased by the parser
  87. # [02:01] <jgraham> Specifically it will create a DOM like <html><head></head><body><foo></foo></body></html>
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  89. # [02:07] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3441 <- this example might be instructive although the DOM view gets the case wrong. The w() function writes to the text box at the bottom.
  90. # [02:07] * jgraham sleep
  91. # [02:08] <jgraham> annevk: BTW it seems to me that Aryeh
  92. # [02:09] <jgraham> 's permissions argument is rather strong. AFAICT the main effect of the change you propose is to make the UX for these things over HTTP sufficiently unappealing that more people with use HTTPS
  93. # [02:09] <jgraham> Which is fine, but isn't the way it's prevented
  94. # [02:09] <jgraham> I might have misunderstood though
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  96. # [02:10] <ccat> jgraham: ok, then "list of elements with local name localName" : "Whose namespace is the HTML namespace and whose local name is localName converted to ASCII lowercase." should be "Whose namespace is the HTML namespace and whose local name is localName (stored as lowercase ASCII when element is created)."
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  98. # [02:21] <ccat> jgraham: still, this is the way it seems to read "Thus, in an HTML document, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") will match FOO elements that are not in the HTML namespace (xml<FOO>), and foo elements that are in the HTML namespace (<HTML><foo>), but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace (<HTML><FOO>)."
  99. # [02:28] <ccat> jgraham: also, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") is from point of view of person, not parser, so tagname "FOO" would mean <FOO>
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  121. # [04:05] <ccat> .
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  123. # [04:08] <ccat> q: is there a simple description on how to create a sortable table? the standard doc is (overly) complex and somewhat confusing, or does not work (maybe when done via chrome devtools)
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  257. # [20:28] <ccat> .
  258. # [20:28] <ccat> Thus, in an HTML document, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO") will match FOO elements that are not in the HTML namespace [as xml <FOO>], and foo elements that are in the HTML namespace [as <HTML><foo>], but not FOO elements that are in the HTML namespace [as <HTML><FOO>]. ---- Is this correct?
  259. # [20:28] <ccat> .
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  261. # [20:35] <caitp-> which FOO elements in the html namespace?
  262. # [20:39] <ccat> caitp-: that is from docs -- so it implies any element <FOO> in an html page
  263. # [20:39] <ccat> -- THE docs
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  266. # [20:47] <ccat> caitp-: ?
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  296. # Session Close: Mon Mar 09 00:00:00 2015

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