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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 09 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  4. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> ccat: you can try writing some simple test cases, if you want to tests what UAs actually do, and compare it to the wording in the spec
  5. # [00:11] <ccat> MikeSmith: will have to try later as chrome-devtools converts tags to LC immediately
  6. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> ?
  7. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> ccat: you can just write a jsbin or whatever
  8. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> there may even be a test in the wpt testsuite for this already
  9. # [00:17] <ccat> MikeSmith: what is jsbin?
  10. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> like jsfiddle, codepen
  11. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> it lets you interactively edit js+html+css and see the results
  12. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> somewhat like using devtools in a browser
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  14. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> except that the test case gets a URL that you can share
  15. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> ccat: anyway you may find a relevant test in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/dom/nodes
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  17. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> and if you don't, you should contribute one for this later
  18. # [00:20] <ccat> MikeSmith: just tried in jsf but devtools shows tag as LC
  19. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> dunno what to say about that
  20. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> btw you can also use Live DOM Viewer
  21. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  22. # [00:25] <jgraham> Everything converts HTML tags to lowercase. That's really the point.
  23. # [00:25] * jgraham is having difficulty understanding the remaining point of confusion
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  25. # [00:26] <jgraham> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#tag-name-state is the lowercasing in the parser (well the tokenizer)
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  27. # [00:28] <jgraham> "Any other start tag" https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing-main-inforeign has some (non-HTML) cases where the lowercasing is undone and some alternate canonical case is used instead
  28. # [00:28] <jgraham> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing-main-inforeign has ascii lowercasing
  29. # [00:28] <jgraham> https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelementns does *not* have ascii lowercasing
  30. # [00:30] <jgraham> https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-element-getelementsbytagname references https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-getelementsbytagname which converts the input argument to ascii lowercase in HTML documents
  31. # [00:31] <jgraham> https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-element-getelementsbytagnamens references https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-getelementsbytagnamens which does *not* do any conversion
  32. # [00:31] <jgraham> That's everyting there is to know about this
  33. # [00:32] <jgraham> Sorry, first "has acscii lowercasing" link should have been https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-getelementsbytagnamens
  34. # [00:33] <jgraham> Ugh *https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelement
  35. # [00:33] <jgraham> Third time lucky, it seems
  36. # [00:36] <ccat> jgraham: ...
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  38. # [00:47] <ccat> MikeSmith: live-dom-viewer shows dom tags as UC !
  39. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> that's just a representation
  40. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> that view iss not meant to accurately representing the case
  41. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> it's just a rendering
  42. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> ccat: I guess you need to look at the innerHTML view there
  43. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> if you want to confirm what's happening with the case
  44. # [00:51] <MikeSmith> but if you read the links that jgraham posted then like he said, it's hard to see what else needs to be said that's not already stated there
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  46. # [00:53] <ccat> MikeSmith: (and jgraham) -- y, to LC at parsing -- BUT...
  47. # [00:54] <ccat> MikeSmith: is this considered HTML namespace <HTML> here? <HTML>
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  49. # [01:01] <ccat> jgraham: is this considered HTML namespace <HTML> here? <HTML>
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  52. # [01:07] <jgraham> ccat: If you don't understand namespaces, then it's not surprising you're having difficulty with all of this.
  53. # [01:08] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_namespace might be some good background reading
  54. # [01:09] <jgraham> The important thing to know is that although HTML is not XML, the HTML DOM still has a concept of namespaces, and under normal circumstances, all elements in a HTML document end up in the HTML namespace
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  59. # [01:32] <ccat> jgraham: the difference between R in insulation, R in chemestry, and R in electronics, but again...
  60. # [01:33] <ccat> jgraham: is this considered HTML namespace <HTML> here? <HTML>
  61. # [01:34] <ccat> jgraham: (sorry, was called away)
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  64. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> ccat: for text/html documents, the notion of the HTML namespace has relevance only after the document is parsed
  65. # [01:54] <ccat> MikeSmith: ohhh, ok
  66. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> there's no way to specify the HTML namespace in the serialized document, and no need to
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  68. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> the parser automatically just puts all the elements into the HTML namespace in the DOM
  69. # [01:57] <ccat> MikeSmith: so this is NOT considered to create HTML namespace <HTML> here? <HTML>
  70. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> man read what I said there and what jgraham said above
  71. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> that question basically doesn't mean anything
  72. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> that question you just asked
  73. # [02:00] <ccat> MikeSmith: sorry, the "parser" sentence was not on the screen yet
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  75. # [02:04] <ccat> MikeSmith: the problem is: "collection = document . getElementsByTagName(localName) ... (Matches case-insensitively against elements in the HTML namespace within an HTML document.) --- which means getE("TAG") will find element <tag>
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  78. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> ccat: why is that a problem
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  80. # [02:27] <ccat> MikeSmith: ok, think the real problem is that the doc starts by referring to an HTML doc with JS code getE(), which SOUNDS like user's point of view -- but then instead of just specifying returned results as tag-examples, it abruptly "switches" to engine's point of view and describes them by NAMESPACE
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  87. # [02:45] <ccat> jgraham: ^^ ?
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  92. # [03:05] <ccat> MikeSmith: jgraham : sorry if you responded -- irc webclient reloaded and lost all info
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  94. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> ccat: didn't respond
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  96. # [03:07] <ccat> MikeSmith: did you see the problem with the description though?
  97. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> ccat: no I don't really. This stuff is pretty fundamental to understanding the entire spec. If a reader doesn't understand how this works, then there are lots of other places in the spec that are going to seem confusing I guess
  98. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> ccat: so I don't know what else to add except that if you think the spec doesn't make all this clear enough, the thing to do is to propose some specific wording that you think would make it more clear
  99. # [03:13] <ccat> MikeSmith: trying to do that, but first needed to understand what was the intended meaning of the doc-note. Think i got that now
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  103. # [03:18] <ccat> MikeSmith: "Thus, in an HTML document," if you follow the <<HTML document>> link back 2 levels it goes to Node -- so what is a file of HTML called in the docs if not a HTML document?
  104. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> ah
  105. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> so yeah, it's probably not called anything in the spec
  106. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> ccat: this is the DOM spec, you mean?
  107. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> at least I know in the HTML spec, there's really know term defined for "a file of HTML"
  108. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> both specs pretty much entirely refer to the DOM representation of a document
  109. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> "HTML document" in the HTML spec certainly always means the parsed document in the DOM
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  111. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> I guess it would be an improvement if it were to define the term "serialized HTML document"
  112. # [03:26] <ccat> https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-getelementsbytagname -- y, dom... and THAT is probably the whole issue -- dom is internal (i.e namespace) -- though html-doc to normal reader is a text file
  113. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> ccat: true
  114. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> but the specs are not written for normal readers
  115. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> not by a long shot
  116. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> this is the problem with trying to write a spec that caters both the implementors and to authors
  117. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> the authors lose
  118. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> the result is tons of confusion on the part of authors because of stuff like this
  119. # [03:28] <ccat> MikeSmith: so it is NOT an HTML ref for the USER (html writer) but for the IMPLEMENTER (html engine maker)
  120. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> yes
  121. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie might try to tell you otherwise
  122. # [03:29] <ccat> MikeSmith: author meaning html-user
  123. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> ccat: yeah you're much better off using guides like MDN
  124. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> ccat: and also you can contribute to MDN to help make it better
  125. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> for specific cases like this, you can make refinements to MDn
  126. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> directly, because it's just a Wiki basically
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  128. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> and it has experienced people who are editors and can review the changes and make fixes is something you contributed is wrong in some way
  129. # [03:35] <ccat> MikeSmith: well... tried mdn (mozilla?) but that's not an Authority, w3 but too in-progress, then found whatwg who says w3 has gone astray and isn't up to date with the world -- and now back to MDN :D
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  131. # [03:39] <Domenic> My strategy is to just learn how to read implementation terms
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  133. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> Domenic: I'm not sure I'd recommend that strategy to most authors. I'm not sure how much benefit it buys them relative to the cost in time needed to learn it
  134. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> but I could be wrong
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  136. # [03:41] <Domenic> Yeah, I think it only makes sense if you're the kind of nerd who would enjoy the learning experience anyway
  137. # [03:41] <Domenic> Not for just getting your job done
  138. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> ccat: http://discourse.specifiction.org/ is another really good discussion forum for asking questions and making proposals and getting feedback
  139. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> Domenic: sure
  140. # [03:42] <ccat> i tried to do that with table "sortable" and got nowhere... unless that is because "sortable" is not yet widely supported so i'm told :D -- i.e doomed from the start?
  141. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> I think there are plenty of people like that, who value having the knowledge and like spending time on the learning
  142. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> ccat: yeah sortable is a fiction at this point
  143. # [03:43] <ccat> a belated aggggggg
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  145. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> I personally like sortable a lot but for browser vendors it's not a priority to implement it
  146. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> I think it's safe to say at this point that it's very unlikely to get implemented natively in any browser any time soon
  147. # [03:45] <ccat> consider: "Thus, in an HTML document, document.getElementsByTagName("FOO")" -- so is document.getElementsByTagName() "supposed" to mean a root node with child f()?
  148. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> sorry I don't know what that question means
  149. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> ccat: btw http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/internals/howbrowserswork/ is very much worth reading
  150. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> and approachable
  151. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> "As a web developer, learning the internals of browser operations helps you make better decisions and know the justifications behind development best practices."
  152. # [03:52] <ccat> MikeSmith: nm the q. Conclusion is the doc is just awkwardly worded unless you know what it means. --- ...in which case you don't need it anyway :D
  153. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> fair enough
  154. # [03:53] <ccat> when was this decided: "Document nodes are simply known as documents"
  155. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> in the 1990s
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  157. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> as far as discussions about the specs goes
  158. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> ccat: anyway the thing is you really do have to read the entire spec
  159. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> the parts of the spec aren't meant to be completely clear to a reader who hasn't done that
  160. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> and the spec can't really repeat clarifying statements in every single section to remind readers what's meant by, e.g., "document"
  161. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> it would just be annoyingly repetitive and unwieldy
  162. # [04:03] <ccat> MikeSmith: true, but saying "in the html doc the function docu.F() returns.." really does imply a text html doc because where else can docu.F() exist? (unless as a node with function-object?)
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  166. # [04:25] <ccat> where is the tag-type, the zzz in <ZZZ>, in this IDL? - https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#elements-in-the-dom
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  168. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> ccat: I don't know what "tag-type" is
  169. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> nor what you mean by "the zzz in <ZZZ>"
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  171. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> but IDL pretty much has nothing to do with start tags or end tags
  172. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> ... and dunno what else you might mean by "tag"
  173. # [04:37] <ccat> MikeSmith: the type of tag, like br, a, li, -- (sorry forgot HTML tags are all LC ....now)
  174. # [04:39] <ccat> -- interface HTMLElement : Element --- "which all the HTML elements' interfaces inherit"
  175. # [04:40] <ccat> MikeSmith: the IDL in question ^^
  176. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> yeah still I have no idea what you mean by "the type of tag"
  177. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> the HTMLElement interface doesn't expose any information about the name of element
  178. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> other interfaces inherit from HTMLElement
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  180. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> e.g, when the parser encounter a <meta> tag in serialized document, it creates an HTMLMetaElement instance in the DOM
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  183. # [04:57] <MikeSmith> maybe what you're looking for is .tagName?
  184. # [04:57] <MikeSmith> or .nodeName
  185. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> lor lcoalname
  186. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> localName
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  190. # [05:02] <ccat> MikeSmith: kind of tag? in <p> sometext <br> moretext <p> the p's are different tags; the p's and br are different kinds/types of tag? --- y, tag-name or node-name
  191. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> "the p's are different tags"? different from what? different from each other? different from the <br> tag?
  192. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> in HTML a "<p>" in serialized document is just called "a start tag named p"
  193. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> the spec doesn't talk anywhere about the "type" of the tag
  194. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> it's either a start tag or an end tag, with a name
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  196. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> looking now, I see「A start tag whose tag name is "meta"」is the exact verbatim formulation the spec uses
  197. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> "Tags contain a tag name, giving the element's name. HTML elements all have names that only use alphanumeric ASCII characters. In the HTML syntax, tag names, even those for foreign elements, may be written with any mix of lower- and uppercase letters that, when converted to all-lowercase, matches the element's tag name; tag names are case-insensitive."
  198. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> from https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#elements-2
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  200. # [05:14] <ccat> MikeSmith: as in... an html webpage uses many different kinds of tags --- sorry, should have used the proper term tagName in the first place, but it did not come to mind and used the informal description "type of tag"
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  202. # [05:16] <ccat> MikeSmith: -- maybe because that IDL does have an (unrelated?) itemType
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  206. # [05:25] <ccat> -- either way, cant find it on the IDL
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  214. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> ccat: huh I have no idea what itemType is
  215. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> for teh ELement interface?
  216. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> ah
  217. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> HTMLElement I see
  218. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> I don't think UAs support that
  219. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> the microdata api
  220. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> or maybe gecko still ships it
  221. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> another example of something that personally seems really useful to me but that browser projects don't care much about
  222. # [05:58] <ccat> MikeSmith: y, the element IDL -- but for tagName, did not see where tagName is specified, and was just wondering
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  226. # [05:59] <ccat> MikeSmith: oops, the HTMLelement IDL -- a different thing :)
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  256. # [08:55] <zcorpan> https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/195 \o/
  257. # [08:58] <Domenic> itshappening.gif
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  268. # [09:17] <annevk> nice
  269. # [09:18] <annevk> chromestatus always fails on first load in Firefox, seems like you need to have some resources cached...
  270. # [09:26] <roc> jgraham: If I was to add a web-platform test for MouseEvent.offsetX/Y, where would I add it and what would I call it?
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  272. # [09:43] <annevk> roc: you could add one here https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/DOMEvents
  273. # [09:44] <annevk> roc: mouseevent-offsetxy.html or some such I guess
  274. # [09:44] <annevk> And at some point we should rename DOMEvents to ui-events
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  298. # [11:17] <jgraham> roc: annevk's suggestions seem reasonable
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  301. # [11:29] <roc> jgraham: are the comments in README.md still true, that to get web-platform tests into the tree we have to submit to the W3C first and then wait for an import?
  302. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> No
  303. # [11:35] <jgraham> roc: No, if you want to commit directly to the gecko tree we have a script to upstream those changes. It will be more widely advertised once it has proven itself a little better ;)
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  311. # [12:23] <ccat> .
  312. # [12:23] <ccat> jgraham: Hixie: re: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-getelementsbytagname -- Conclusion: ok, the note is about the HTML dom-doc and NAMESPACE, not the HTML text-doc, but saying it like " IN the html document the function docu.getE("<FOO>") will..." really does imply the text html-doc because what else could docu.getE() exist IN ? (unless it's a node with child function-object?) -- Good Luck!
  313. # [12:24] <ccat> .
  314. # [12:25] <ccat> PS: thanks for the time MikeSmith and jgraham :)
  315. # [12:25] <ccat> .
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  319. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> ccat: cheers
  320. # [12:43] <ccat> MikeSmith: :) -- BTW what about https://www.webplatform.org/ docs?
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  325. # [13:29] <beverloo> annevk, fwiw, we have implementation storage limits on pretty much anything
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  327. # [13:29] <beverloo> it'll be very high and unlikely to get in the developer's way
  328. # [13:29] <beverloo> and we'll have data on how often people hit it
  329. # [13:30] <annevk> Yeah I don't really see the problem, as in that it's already a thing you need to account for with structured clones in various APIs
  330. # [13:30] <beverloo> I don't think we have a problem :)
  331. # [13:30] <beverloo> I'm OK with a no-change solution
  332. # [13:30] <annevk> good
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  335. # [13:33] <jgraham> annevk: BTW I didn't really feel like people addressed Aryeh's concern about the persistent permission thing. If a site uses these permissions all the time for something rather normal then users will expect to be granting them all the time so lack of persistance won't change much (even moreso if the permissions last for a whole session rather than a single API call; do they?) So it seems like the only real value of this change is making the UX for pe
  336. # [13:33] <jgraham> ... bad that sites feel like they have to use HTTPS instead. Which is a valid strategy ofc, albeit a risky one
  337. # [13:36] <annevk> jgraham: yeah that is a valid point, hmm
  338. # [13:46] <annevk> jgraham: a bit of that sentence got dropped btw
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  340. # [13:47] <jgraham> "So it seems like the only real value of this change is making the UX for permissions over HTTP so...", perhaps?
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  346. # [13:56] <annevk> jgraham: I think for geolocation Aryeh might be correct, not convinced for Fullscreen and Pointer Lock
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  348. # [13:57] <annevk> jgraham: for geolocation the attacker would just inject a side channel, but exploiting Fullscreen and Pointer Lock actually requires a different site to be presented
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  350. # [14:01] <jgraham> If you have something like a game running in fullscreen you can probably replace the "end game" function with something that doesn't actually exit fullscreen. I'm not sure how to get people to go from there to the fake site though.
  351. # [14:02] <jgraham> I mean the fake banking site or whatever
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  354. # [14:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: maybe it could have a browser written in JS to let the user continue browsing
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  357. # [14:22] <jgraham> Haha, just compile Firefox in emscripten :)
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  378. # [15:04] <adrianr1> hiya
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  384. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> jgraham: Ms2ger so the w3c systeam is trying to install the needsinfo-flag extension but they ran into an error
  385. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> who should we talk to?
  386. # [15:17] <jgraham> MikeSmith: glob, I guess
  387. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> hai
  388. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> ^
  389. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> can I ping glob on #developers?
  390. # [15:17] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, or there's a bugzilla channel somewhere
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  392. # [15:20] <jgraham> #bugzilla in fact
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  394. # [15:20] * jgraham decides it probably wasn't to blame for the random kernel panic he got the moment he switched to it
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  401. # [15:45] <beverloo> annevk, let me know if there's anything I can do to make the anolis->bikeshed move easier. It's near impossible to review
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  403. # [15:48] <annevk> beverloo: can you put up a copy somewhere or did you already do that?
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  407. # [15:49] <beverloo> https://secure.peter.sh/notifications.html
  408. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> peter.sh? Why not peter.py?
  409. # [15:50] <beverloo> less exploitable?
  410. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> heh
  411. # [15:54] <annevk> beverloo: it seems dfn.js does not work though that's a general bikeshed problem
  412. # [15:54] <annevk> beverloo: although actually, we made that work for url.spec.whatwg.org
  413. # [15:54] <beverloo> I don't know what dfn.js does?
  414. # [15:55] <beverloo> I looked at the url spec quite a bit, happy to try to figure out how it's working there
  415. # [15:55] <annevk> beverloo: when you click on a definition, it shows you a popup with links to where the definition is used
  416. # [15:55] <beverloo> aah, I see. yeah, I did notice that
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  419. # [16:09] <annevk> "The data attribute's getter must return a structured clone of notification's data." seems like this needs some caching to be defined...
  420. # [16:10] <annevk> beverloo: other than dfn.js I can't spot anything obviously wrong
  421. # [16:11] <beverloo> I'll have a look at the dfn.js issue later today
  422. # [16:11] <annevk> beverloo: at the top it says "Version History" and doesn't use a distinct <dd> for the Twitter account
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  436. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> thanks mathiasbynens
  437. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: so it looks like we got the needsinfo flag working now in w3c bugzilla
  438. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> thanks to glob and to laurent from the w3c systems team
  439. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> mathiasbynens and I just tested it
  440. # [16:43] <annevk> cool beans
  441. # [16:43] <mathiasbynens> MikeSmith: \o/
  442. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> so once y'all use it for real, if you notice any problems lemme know
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  607. # [22:38] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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  609. # [22:48] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/zdobersek) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  610. # [22:53] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  611. # [22:58] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@215.196-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  612. # [23:00] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  616. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> Wow, I never knew cheilmann was this clueless: http://christianheilmann.com/2015/03/09/advancing-javascript-without-breaking-the-web/
  617. # [23:13] <Hixie> which part in particular?
  618. # [23:13] * Quits: caitp- (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  619. # [23:14] * Quits: alrra (uid62345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpppsgzbmtokdpfr) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  620. # [23:14] <Ms2ger> The "let's do browser-sniffing and make it look like feature-detection" bit
  621. # [23:15] <Hixie> oh ok good, that's the part that stood out to me
  622. # [23:16] <Ms2ger> I stopped reading after that
  623. # [23:18] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  624. # [23:18] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-4g4.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
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  627. # [23:23] <gsnedders> wait what
  628. # [23:23] <gsnedders> that's crazy
  629. # [23:23] <gsnedders> le sigh
  630. # [23:23] <gsnedders> people!
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  645. # [23:59] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-111-97.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  646. # Session Close: Tue Mar 10 00:00:00 2015

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