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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 24 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <othermaciej> is there anyone around who understands how microtasks are supposed to work?
  4. # [00:03] <othermaciej> I am finding the spec confusing
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  6. # [00:16] <jsbell> othermaciej: maybe? what's up?
  7. # [00:19] <othermaciej> jsbell: is there anything that causes microtasks to be performed after an event handler, function-based timer, or other non-script-based callback is run?
  8. # [00:19] <othermaciej> it sure sounds like this algorithm should run after such callbacks: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#clean-up-after-running-a-callback
  9. # [00:20] <othermaciej> but I could not find anything that would cause it to happen; only seems to happen for stuff evaluating bare script code, like <script> or a timer with a string instead of a function
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  25. # [00:42] <jamesr___> othermaciej: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#processing-model-9 step 7 perhaps?
  26. # [00:42] <jamesr___> there are various other invocations of the "Perform a microtask checkpoint." text, for example in the "spin the event loop" section
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  28. # [00:45] <jamesr___> but the task one in the processing model should cover event handler, function-based timer and other non-script-based callbacks
  29. # [00:45] <jamesr___> since those are all tasks
  30. # [00:49] <jsbell> (sorry was afk). Agreed - anything that isn't covered by that sounds like a spec bug.
  31. # [00:52] <jsbell> jgraham: I've lost track of what the actual question is in the serviceworker/wpt thread
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  33. # [00:53] <jgraham> jsbell: The latest messages are about whether the tests can be written to run on https rather than on http
  34. # [00:54] <jgraham> AIUI the tests currently rely on running on a hostname that's whitelisted as allowing SW on http i.e. localhost or 127.0.0.1
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  36. # [00:54] <othermaciej> jamesr___: yeah, I am not sure if event handlers, function timers, and miscellaneous functioncallbacks, are all meant to be handled by the post-task catchall
  37. # [00:55] <othermaciej> jamesr___: or if they should have some specific affordance
  38. # [00:55] <jsbell> jgraham: as far as chrome's test harness goes, https://localhost:8443 should be available
  39. # [00:55] <othermaciej> jamesr___: it potentially makes a difference, for example for events dispatched synchronously from within script
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  41. # [00:56] <jamesr___> othermaciej: i think in that case microtasks shouldn't fire
  42. # [00:56] <jamesr___> since the general philosophy is that they run on clean callstacks, no?
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  44. # [00:56] <othermaciej> I don’t know what the philosophy is
  45. # [00:57] <othermaciej> The spec doesn’t explain the theory of microtasks at a high level, it just has a bunch of algorithms that reference each other
  46. # [00:57] <jgraham> jsbell: Right, but the problem is semantics. A test for cross-origin communication isn't necessarily going to work if I just s|http://locahost:8000|https://{{host}}:{{ports[https][0]}}|
  47. # [00:57] <othermaciej> so I can’t tell if I’m following them correctly
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  50. # [00:57] <jamesr___> i think the idea is you implement the algorithms you don't have to understand the theory :)
  51. # [00:58] <jgraham> jsbell: So it would be useful if the chrome tests were rewritten to run from https:8443 by default
  52. # [00:58] <othermaciej> jamesr___: what confuses me is this Note: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#processing-model-9:clean-up-after-running-a-callback
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  54. # [00:58] <othermaciej> jamesr___: it seems like most kinds of callbacks do not in fact eventually call the “clean up after running a callback” steps
  55. # [00:58] <othermaciej> jamesr___: which is the hook where microtasks might be run after running some script
  56. # [00:59] <jsbell> jgraham: if you're asking us to s/http/https/, s/8000/8443/ where possible in the blink repo, then SGTM
  57. # [00:59] <jamesr___> looks like that's only reached by 8.1.3.3 which is reached by creating a <script>
  58. # [00:59] <othermaciej> jamesr___: that note implies they would, but it only seems to apply to non-function entry into script
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  60. # [00:59] <othermaciej> jamesr___: if that is totally intentional, then perhaps the only issue is that the note is confusing
  61. # [00:59] <jamesr___> it seems a bit confusing. the flag in the queue is needed since the event loop can be entered reentrantly
  62. # [01:00] <jgraham> jsbell: Yeah, that would be ideal
  63. # [01:00] <jamesr___> i.e. you could within a microtask call showModalDialog() and then start spinning again
  64. # [01:00] <jamesr___> could you insert a new <script> within a microtask?
  65. # [01:00] <jamesr___> i mean you could, but would it run then?
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  67. # [01:01] <othermaciej> I don’t know
  68. # [01:01] <jamesr___> well you could via showModalDialog
  69. # [01:01] <jamesr___> since you can do anything in that
  70. # [01:01] <othermaciej> document.write() would run it synchronously but I am not sure if something about microtasks prevents it
  71. # [01:02] <jamesr___> but i don't think that's what the note is supposed to signify. definitely worth some clarification
  72. # [01:02] <jsbell> jgraham: but ideally we should be using resources/test-helpers.js and get_host_info() everywhere instead of hardcoding anything
  73. # [01:02] <othermaciej> I notice though that there is nothing to account for non-<script> script callbacks in that algorithm
  74. # [01:02] <jsbell> jgraham: i.e. crbug.com/462361
  75. # [01:03] <othermaciej> I guess the only relevance is to prevent the algorithm from re-entering so it doesn’t matter that most script callbacks don’t do it
  76. # [01:03] <jgraham> jsbell: Right, but irrespective of that moving from http to https by default requires changes to what's considered cross-origin + etc.
  77. # [01:05] <jsbell> jgraham: get_host_info() populates e.g. HTTPS_REMOTE_ORIGIN; assuming the tests use those variables correctly, wouldn't that cover it? (sorry if I'm being dense here)
  78. # [01:06] <jgraham> Well I think my point is just that the changes there might not be trivial, depending on *exactly* what is being tested
  79. # [01:06] <jsbell> jgraham: Agreed.
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  81. # [01:07] <jgraham> e.g. if the default server is https://localhost:8443 then the remote origin probably has to be a subdomain, or different port, or something, whereas at the moment https is itself a seperate origin
  82. # [01:07] <jgraham> (and different tests might want different things here)
  83. # [01:08] <jgraham> Anyway I guess I will look at this more tomorrow, now I will sleep
  84. # [01:08] <jgraham> jsbell: thanks for the help!
  85. # [01:09] <jsbell> jgraham: I'll reply to the thread a bit and annotate the bug, but your clarifications (post sleep!) will help, thx!
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  165. # [03:38] <jpdevries> Hello all. I understand this would probably target HTML6, but does anyone else feel there is a case for allowing multiple <base> tags on a page (outside of <head>)? Imagine being able to nest a base tag in a section and have it override the base href for that section and it's inner elements.
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  281. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> "I tried to make an "end credits" slide w/ IE-only APIs not in Project Spartan that scrolls while I talk. The list was so long it crashed PPT"
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  291. # [10:09] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Pointer?
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  293. # [10:11] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/jacobrossi/status/580253880690208768
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  297. # [10:17] <Ms2ger> annevk_, https://github.com/servo/servo/issues/5336
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  344. # [12:43] <tiago> hi, how would I read a certain meta tag with html5lib?
  345. # [12:43] <tiago> in python
  346. # [12:44] <tiago> like, <meta name="description" content="Something" />
  347. # [12:44] <tiago> I need the "Something"
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  349. # [12:48] <JakeA> tiago: this channel is for HTML & DOM specs. In JS it could be document.querySelector('meta[name=description]').getAttribute('content'), dunno if html5lib has something similar. It isn't maintained by whatwg.
  350. # [12:49] <tiago> Thanks JakeA, it's just because the html5lib github page points to this channel
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  353. # [12:51] <JakeA> Streams people (cc Domenic), if I have an underlying binary stream, piped to a text decoding transform stream, piped to a CSV decoder, should the CSV decoder yield, say, a CSV cell per read, or is it customary to deliver as much data as you can per read?
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  358. # [12:54] <JakeA> tiago: oh, actually, maybe I'm wrong, looks like quite a few people in this channel build that lib. My bad. +MikeSmith gsnedders
  359. # [12:54] <tiago> ah
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  362. # [13:02] <JakeA> tiago: once you've got a document, you can use .childNodes to gets its children etc etc. Once you find the meta, use .attributes and find the one with name 'name'
  363. # [13:02] <JakeA> https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/blob/f5fd711dd3e933353423656b8adf114e436cc4bb/html5lib/treebuilders/etree.py#L19
  364. # [13:03] <tiago> thanks JakeA, I will tr
  365. # [13:03] <tiago> *try
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  381. # [13:48] <Domenic> JakeA: CSV cell (more likely row) per read is generally customary
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  383. # [13:50] <JakeA> Domenic: thanks!
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  387. # [13:52] <JakeA> Domenic: btw, the streams API seems to be a perfect balance of simplicity and functionality. Nice one
  388. # [13:52] <Domenic> :D
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  394. # [14:04] <wanderview> yea, it seems for chunk or message oriented streams like ReadableStream... each chunk should be a logical object for whatever transformation you are doing
  395. # [14:04] <wanderview> I think its less clear for ReadableByteStreams
  396. # [14:05] <JakeA> wanderview: yeah, or text which is "as many chars as possible", and it only holds back incomplete chars
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  404. # [14:23] <annevk_> Domenic: iirc I told you that TextDecoder kept state, but TextEncoder didn't
  405. # [14:23] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  406. # [14:23] <annevk> JakeA: you should keep passing stream:true until you hit OEF
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  409. # [14:25] <JakeA> annevk: that's what I'm doing
  410. # [14:26] <JakeA> stream is !result.done
  411. # [14:26] <annevk> JakeA: we could maybe make pipe(new TextDecoder) work for the common case, if TextDecoder/TextEncoder implement some stream-protocol
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  413. # [14:27] <Domenic> annevk: ah yes, now I remember
  414. # [14:27] <JakeA> annevk: at a quick glance, I think that could be possible in a backwards compatible way
  415. # [14:28] <JakeA> You could maybe even define .decode in terms of real streams
  416. # [14:28] <Domenic> yeah just add .writable and .readable properties
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  418. # [14:29] <JakeA> Domenic: the bit I'm worried about is what .decode etc do if you're using the decoder as a stream
  419. # [14:29] <Domenic> yeah true
  420. # [14:30] <Domenic> perhaps unnecessarily complicated
  421. # [14:30] <JakeA> Domenic: it could be as simple as it throws if the stream is locked
  422. # [14:31] <Domenic> Mehhhh
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  424. # [14:31] <JakeA> Using it as a stream, *and* calling .decode sounds like a mistake
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  427. # [14:35] <wanderview> It seems the streamified object should wrap an existing TextDecoder object
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  429. # [14:36] <JakeA> Gone done a post on fetch & streams http://jakearchibald.com/2015/thats-so-fetch/
  430. # [14:37] <Domenic> wanderview: or TextDecoder should wrap a streamified object. But, they should be separate I think... too messy otherwise.
  431. # [14:37] <wanderview> Domenic: I think since TextDecoder existed first... its easier to write the new stream in terms of the TextDecoder
  432. # [14:38] <Domenic> Sure
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  443. # [14:55] <annevk> JakeA: "Dramatic reconstruction" :-)
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  451. # [15:03] <JakeA> annevk: I had to fallback to an SVG of that on iphone because they *still* don't allow inline video
  452. # [15:03] <JakeA> Could have used a 5mb gif but screw that
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  458. # [15:10] <Domenic> an svg O_O i gotta see this
  459. # [15:13] <Domenic> hmm tried it on my ipad looks the same
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  462. # [15:15] <Domenic> don't engage webreflection...
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  469. # [15:21] <JakeA> Domenic: ah, too late
  470. # [15:21] <Domenic> he is _the_ es-discuss troll
  471. # [15:21] <JakeA> Domenic: the SVG is static unfortunately. Inline video works fine on ipad
  472. # [15:21] <Domenic> hmm i was picturing an animated vector representation
  473. # [15:22] <JakeA> So I'm not crazy then? I can't match up what webreflection is saying to reality
  474. # [15:23] <wanderview> JakeA: I think maybe if someone focuses on the tongue-in-cheek parts they could view it as a rant... *mumbles something about cognitive bias*
  475. # [15:23] <JakeA> maybe. I tried to keep it tongue-in-cheek and of course didn't name
  476. # [15:24] <gsnedders> JakeA: the official policy has always been there's no real topic for this channel, and nobody really cares about using this for html5lib since half the discussions historically were half spec discussions and actual questions are pretty infrequent
  477. # [15:25] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  478. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> does anybody maintain a JSON file or something with a list of the currents UA strings for major browsers?
  479. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> something meant to be easily consumable
  480. # [15:27] <wanderview> JakeA: I know... it was a valiant effort... but people tend to see what they expect to see unfortunately
  481. # [15:27] <JakeA> gsnedders: noted, cheers!
  482. # [15:29] <ondras> webreflection is andrea giammarchi_
  483. # [15:29] <ondras> ?
  484. # [15:29] <ondras> I recall his talk on jsconf.eu ~2012 or so
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  486. # [15:31] <caitp-> was this whole thing about how fetch is bad because of promises, or was that a different one?
  487. # [15:31] <jgraham> MikeSmith: At one point that UA sniffing tool thing had them, I think. Or I guess regexps that were supposed to match lots of known browsers
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  489. # [15:31] <wanderview> caitp-: I believe this started with "OMG fetch is not based on streams"
  490. # [15:32] <wanderview> or maybe there are two issues flying about
  491. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ok
  492. # [15:34] * wanderview enables Cache by default in Firefox nightly.
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  495. # [15:35] <JakeA> ondras: he's a cool guy, he's just a bit hot-headed about this
  496. # [15:36] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Something like https://github.com/3rd-Eden/useragent/blob/master/lib/regexps.js
  497. # [15:36] <JakeA> caitp-: yeah, partly it was "this is not based on streams" even though it is, but also that we don't have cancellation yet, but that's on its way
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  499. # [15:40] <JakeA> wanderview: ohhhh! In window objects too?
  500. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: looking now
  501. # [15:41] <wanderview> JakeA: yep... it won't ride the trains to release yet, though
  502. # [15:41] <wanderview> I'm going to push a blog post in a bit explaining
  503. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ah coolーthanks
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  527. # [16:19] <wanderview> JakeA: here is the blog explaining what we are doing: https://blog.wanderview.com/blog/2015/03/24/service-workers-in-firefox-nightly/
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  770. # [23:45] * Quits: frivoal (~frivoal@cm-84.208.175.177.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  771. # [23:46] * Joins: jyasskin (~jyasskin@216.239.45.76)
  772. # [23:47] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com)
  773. # [23:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  774. # [23:48] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@62-78-246-79.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  775. # [23:53] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-71-198-213-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  776. # [23:54] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com)
  777. # Session Close: Wed Mar 25 00:00:00 2015

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