/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-04-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 03 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  136. # [05:51] <mnot1> annvk — looking at URL spec
  137. # [05:51] <mnot1> It doesn't appear to account for http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6874
  138. # [05:51] <mnot1> Not sure how common that is, but it is coming out of Apple...
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  207. # [08:16] <annevk> jgraham: I still have "Subproject commit 8ce47687cbbfff6b249bbaf189f096869286c677-dirty" as a change to tools in web-platform-tests
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  209. # [08:20] * annevk replied to mnot1 on Twitter
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  226. # [09:42] <annevk> In HTTP ABNF, "text", how do you indicate text cannot appear in quoted form?
  227. # [09:43] <annevk> I see, you need quoted-string for that
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  257. # [11:15] <jgraham> annevk: You can probably ignore that
  258. # [11:16] <annevk> jgraham: yeah, it seems like it doesn't matter much in terms of getting updates and doing commits, but it's still a bit annoying that it shows up
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  260. # [11:17] <jgraham> annevk: Right, it should be possible to make it not say that… I'll investigate
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  267. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I believe you need to add *.pyc to the gitignore, if you haven't figured that out yet :)
  268. # [11:38] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Looking at a problem with my servo PR instead :)
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  287. # [12:35] <jgraham> OK, added a .gitignore file
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  295. # [13:25] <annevk> JakeA: it seems you're making good progress on cancelation with Domenic so unless I hear otherwise I'll just wait on the outcome of your research
  296. # [13:26] <annevk> JakeA: I also tried to reply to all the BackgroundSync things
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  298. # [13:30] <annevk> JakeA: I have to say by the way that I have "Background App Refresh" (as Apple calls it) disabled and have advised others with battery problems to do the same. In that light I'm still not really comfortable with the period synchronization feature...
  299. # [13:32] <rcombs> anyone around willing to take a look at an HTTP I-D and comment? https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-combs-http-indeterminate-range/
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  306. # [14:00] <annevk> rcombs: maybe reuse an existing header to advertise the feature?
  307. # [14:01] <rcombs> annevk: I considered extending Accept-Ranges
  308. # [14:02] <rcombs> annevk: but there's a decent chance that existing implementations just look for the exact string "bytes" in there
  309. # [14:03] <annevk> rcombs: there's Prefer, bunch of client hints headers I believe
  310. # [14:04] <annevk> rcombs: I don't know, just seems like adding a new header for each new thing doesn't really scale
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  312. # [14:06] <rcombs> eh, it's not like you pay per header, or like there's a significant performance penalty for parsing a new one over parsing a variant of an existing one
  313. # [14:07] <rcombs> I'd have preferred to have something like `Accept-Ranges: bytes, bytes-indeterminate`, but the existing spec isn't clear on multiple values being allowed for that header
  314. # [14:10] <annevk> rcombs: 1#range-unit seems quite clear
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  317. # [14:13] <rcombs> I actually don't know for sure what that syntax means (is that valid (E|A)BNF?), but assuming it means "exactly 1 of <range-unit>", then yeah, that'd be clearly not allowing multiple values
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  319. # [14:15] <annevk> rcombs: it means one or more comma-separated values
  320. # [14:15] <annevk> rcombs: it's HTTP ABNF
  321. # [14:15] <rcombs> oh, of course it has its own dialect
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  323. # [14:15] <rcombs> that I did not know
  324. # [14:16] <annevk> rcombs: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7230#section-7
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  326. # [14:16] <rcombs> thanks
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  329. # [14:25] <rcombs> hmm, libavformat checks if the first 5 characters of the header are "bytes", Chromium checks if the string "bytes" appears at all, WebKit just checks if it's not equal to "none", and Firefox checks if it's exactly equal to "bytes"
  330. # [14:25] <rcombs> that last one is what I was afraid of
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  337. # [14:42] <annevk> wow
  338. # [14:42] <annevk> that's pretty terrible
  339. # [14:42] <annevk> it's almost as if the HTTP WG doesn't really test things
  340. # [14:46] <annevk> philipj: do you know the details about MIME types and <audio>, <video>, and <track>?
  341. # [14:47] <annevk> philipj: I want to fill out https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#should-response-to-request-be-blocked-due-to-nosniff?
  342. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> Tests? What's that?
  343. # [14:48] <darobin> HTTP 1.x did great without
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  346. # [14:50] <rcombs> if the vast majority of uses of a field have a single value, you can bet at least one implementation will check for that value exactly and fail on all others
  347. # [14:51] <rcombs> or otherwise check it lazily, and just make sure it works with existing servers (or files or implementations or whatever) then assume it's fine
  348. # [14:52] <rcombs> hi I'm rcombs and I'm cynical about tech
  349. # [14:52] <Ms2ger> That's why we have test suites on this side
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  375. # [16:22] <wanderview> JakeA: is this how Cache add/addAll/put are supposed to work? it seems confusing to me... https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/665#issuecomment-89216340
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  398. # [17:00] <caitp> hm, jhusain isn't big on fetch either
  399. # [17:06] <caitp> why do the cancellation semantics need to be tied to the promise? why not response objects?
  400. # [17:13] <wanderview> caitp: because you need to be able to cancel before the network headers are available and don't have a Response object yet
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  408. # [17:42] <annevk> caitp: too late?
  409. # [17:46] <caitp> fine, fetch.abort(thePromise) then :p
  410. # [17:46] <caitp> but I mean
  411. # [17:46] <caitp> it doesn't solve how you'd encode cancellation and avoid deadlocks
  412. # [17:47] <annevk> Deadlocks?
  413. # [17:47] <caitp> well you wouldn't resolve or reject the promise
  414. # [17:48] <annevk> Oh, with your proposal
  415. # [17:50] <bradleymeck> unlimited pending also causes some odd things since you can't do a finally style cleanup
  416. # [17:50] <caitp> yes, that
  417. # [17:50] <caitp> er, that's the proble
  418. # [17:50] <caitp> m
  419. # [17:50] <caitp> this keyboard is really hard to type on
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  421. # [17:52] * bradleymeck is still upset that finally is no longer 100% guaranteed in generators
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  424. # [17:57] <annevk> bradleymeck: JakeA and Domenic have an idea of making .finally work for cancelable promises
  425. # [17:57] <annevk> bradleymeck: but not .catch, which seems okayish
  426. # [17:58] <bradleymeck> uggggg
  427. # [17:59] <bradleymeck> finally, except not like try catch finally
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  431. # [18:00] <bradleymeck> we use finally to cleanup steps in both cases, since we keep pushing cleanup steps as we perform them
  432. # [18:00] <bradleymeck> so if there is an error we would need to always add a .catch to do cleanup?
  433. # [18:01] <caitp> `
  434. # [18:01] <annevk> bradleymeck: not like that
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  436. # [18:02] <annevk> bradleymeck: cancelation would trigger finally only, catch/finally still work per usual otherwise
  437. # [18:02] <bradleymeck> seems sane, as cancelation is closer to return than throw
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  439. # [18:02] <bradleymeck> at least we are using .return for cancellation on generators
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  475. # [19:19] <Domenic> yeah, that was the inspiration
  476. # [19:19] <Domenic> not sure it's actually workable or ergonomic yet, but seems theoretically sound-ish
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  488. # [19:51] <Domenic> JakeA: I think I like the onCancelled-handler-chooses approach. That way you get forever-pending by default but the creator can choose.
  489. # [19:51] <Domenic> JakeA: you *could* even extend it so that .cancel(x) passes x to onCanceled, which would allow .cancel({ rejectWith: e }) if the promise-creator was set up to handle that.
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  528. # [21:27] <caitp> does it really make sense to use promises at all for something that is more complicated than a success/error response?
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  531. # [21:32] <jsbell_gardener> caitp: if "it" was synchronous, would it make sense as function that returns a value or throws?
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  536. # [21:33] <caitp> right, but this is re: fetch
  537. # [21:34] <caitp> there are more possible outcomes and no real synchronous analog
  538. # [21:34] <jsbell_gardener> ah, missed the context above
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  546. # [21:48] <Domenic> caitp: I think it does.
  547. # [21:49] <Domenic> caitp: you can think about it in a few ways. One is that a promise is an async extension of "completion values" and there are more completion types than just normal and throw.
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  552. # [21:51] <caitp> well jhusain was saying "we escaped the land of errnos and sentinel values for a reason, lets not go back!" well, in addition to other things
  553. # [21:51] <caitp> and with the current promise design, how else would you do it?
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  558. # [22:04] <Domenic> You wouldn't use the current promise design, you'd use a cancellable promise design
  559. # [22:06] <caitp> Promise.all([ fetchThing1(), fetchThing2(), fetchThing3() ]).ohWaitIDontNeedTheseWhatNow()
  560. # [22:07] <caitp> it doesn't "really" work
  561. # [22:08] <Domenic> I don't really understand either of those two sentences
  562. # [22:08] <caitp> I mean, if cancellable promises can interact with regular promises, then you can lose the cancelable-ness
  563. # [22:09] <Domenic> for sure, that's kind of explicitly the point
  564. # [22:09] <caitp> which is confusing and notgood
  565. # [22:09] <Domenic> if you downcast to a regular promise you're removing the cancel-ability
  566. # [22:09] <Domenic> Kind of like downcasting from v8::Value to v8::Handle :P
  567. # [22:10] <caitp> I dunno, seems like a lot of headaches waiting to happen
  568. # [22:11] <wanderview> Domenic: do you envision a Promise.allCancellable() that would keep the all() behavior and cancellable type?
  569. # [22:12] <Domenic> wanderview: CancelablePromise.all([...])
  570. # [22:12] <Domenic> base Promise type should be entirely undisturbed
  571. # [22:12] <wanderview> Domenic: and does that throw if passed a non-cancellable promise or something?
  572. # [22:12] <Domenic> wanderview: nah it just converts them to cancelable promises which a no-op cancelation action
  573. # [22:13] <Domenic> wanderview: similarly to how Promise.all converts non-promises to fulfilled promises
  574. # [22:13] <caitp> I know fetch has shipped and all, but it's young and could probably be unshipped in order to fix the design
  575. # [22:13] <wanderview> Domenic: so as a developer, I would just use CancelablePromise.all() all the time right? why would I ever use Promise.all() any more?
  576. # [22:14] <wanderview> in case someone gave me a cancellable promise
  577. # [22:14] <wanderview> or needed to consume my promise as cancellable
  578. # [22:14] <Domenic> caitp: you really have drunk the kool-aid of that thread ... there's nothing wrong with the fetch design.
  579. # [22:15] <Domenic> wanderview: you would use CancelablePromise.all if you wanted the result to be cancelable. But that's pretty rare. Most of the time you don't want to give people the ability to cancel.
  580. # [22:15] <caitp> i am not really following that thread closely, but we're looking at the design for angular's new http abstraction, and jafar husain brought the points there
  581. # [22:15] <Domenic> ah yes, he is everywhere bad-mouthing other peoples' work.
  582. # [22:16] <caitp> i don't know if he's been impolite about it, but he does raise some good points
  583. # [22:16] <Domenic> i really just disagree with them. he's pretty colored by his observable-philia
  584. # [22:17] <Domenic> sour grapes that the platform includes promises and not observables, is what i've seen
  585. # [22:18] <caitp> i mean, I think the platform does get pretty close to observables with DOM events
  586. # [22:18] <caitp> "pretty" close
  587. # [22:18] <JakeA> Domenic: not sure I like the "perma-hang as a default" idea, especially as a chain can cancel without oncancel being called on any promise
  588. # [22:18] <Domenic> caitp: heh. I mean, they are both vaguely event-like.
  589. # [22:18] <JakeA> I think reject or some third state needs to be default
  590. # [22:19] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/zdobersek) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  591. # [22:19] <Domenic> JakeA: hmm. I think the question is, what is the use case for observing cancellation.
  592. # [22:20] <JakeA> Domenic: cancelling spinners for one
  593. # [22:20] <Domenic> JakeA: if we had better answers for that, we could see if e.g. a .finally version is reasonable
  594. # [22:20] <Domenic> OK, cool, that does sound finally-friendly
  595. # [22:20] <Domenic> doAsyncThing().catch(showError).finally(removeSpinner)
  596. # [22:20] * Joins: _ritchie_ (~andrewr@cpe-67-243-154-181.nyc.res.rr.com)
  597. # [22:21] <JakeA> Domenic: agreed
  598. # [22:21] <Domenic> This is gonna be a bitch to spec the backend of :P
  599. # [22:22] <caitp> it's probably not a good idea to have a new class of promise in addition to existing promises
  600. # [22:22] <Domenic> I disagree
  601. # [22:22] <Domenic> JakeA: I think I'll revive promises-unwrapping, update it to the latest spec. Then we can use it as a base for CancelablePromise.
  602. # [22:23] <caitp> no, it's a really bad idea, from a web developer's PoV and from a browser vendor's PoV
  603. # [22:23] <Domenic> I disagree.
  604. # [22:24] <wanderview> Domenic: I guess it just seems weird to me that if you use a legacy library in your Promise chain that does not return CancellablePromise, then you can no longer cancel the source of the chain...
  605. # [22:24] <Domenic> wanderview: yeah but the legacy library produces promises that are not meant to be cancelable
  606. # [22:25] <caitp> why not just propose an extension to the promise api for es7?
  607. # [22:25] <Domenic> caitp: because not all promises should be cancelable. That's a capability leak to make them so.
  608. # [22:25] <wanderview> Domenic: but if the source hasn't finished yet, why does the cancellability of the later processing prevent me from cancelling the source?
  609. # [22:25] <caitp> Domenic, they might not all be cancellable, but "finally" surely makes sense for all promises
  610. # [22:26] <Domenic> caitp: oh, yeah, definitely. That was the plan.
  611. # [22:26] <caitp> if you have a single class, you make life much easier for devs
  612. # [22:26] <wanderview> Domenic: it just seems its going to make it harder to glue different modules in the promise ecosystem together... basically creating separate class of modules
  613. # [22:26] <caitp> if they all have a cancel method which may or may not do anything, you make life easier
  614. # [22:26] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  615. # [22:27] <Domenic> wanderview: I think that's intended though. You should explicitly opt-in to cancelability.
  616. # [22:27] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
  617. # [22:27] <Domenic> caitp: I don't think silent failure like that makes anyone's life easier.
  618. # [22:27] <caitp> where's the silent failure
  619. # [22:27] <wanderview> Domenic: I don't see how that jives with CancellablePromise.all() wrapping non-cancellable promises with a no-op cancel()... if thats safe... just give them all a no-op cancel by default
  620. # [22:28] <Domenic> caitp: canceling something that's not actually cancelable is a logic error. Better to get that error than silently doing nothing.
  621. # [22:28] <Domenic> wanderview: it's a shorthand for CancellablePromise.all(mapIterable(i, x => CancelablePromise.resolve(x)))
  622. # [22:29] <Domenic> wanderview: just like Promise.all is a shorthand for Promise.all(mapIterable(i, x => Promise.resolve(x)))
  623. # [22:30] <wanderview> Domenic: I don't see how that behavior is consistent with your statement "canceling something that's not actually cancelable is a logic error"
  624. # [22:30] <wanderview> but I am probably just bikeshedding at this point
  625. # [22:30] * wanderview gets out of the way.
  626. # [22:31] <Domenic> wanderview: I see what you're saying. It's an implicit part of the .all contract that you up-cast though. Whereas it's not an implicit part of the anyValue.anyMethod() contract that you up-cast, IMO. So if anyValue does not have a behavior for anyMethod then it seems better to throw.
  627. # [22:32] <Domenic> I dunno, these kind of things make me want to go back to tokens, but then I see how painful they are to use.
  628. # [22:32] <Domenic> I am 100% sure by this point though that CancelablePromise is much better than Task
  629. # [22:32] <wanderview> Domenic: I guess I would argue there is a net benefit to the ecosystem to providing a single Promise class with a default no-op vs. splitting the ecosystem into separate classes with more strictly defined throw-if-not-really-cancelable policy
  630. # [22:33] <caitp> i think it's worth entertaining the guy's ideas a bit, it's not like he doesn't have a clue about api design
  631. # [22:33] <Domenic> caitp: I've been down that road.
  632. # [22:33] <Domenic> caitp: not my first rodeo with Jafar :)
  633. # [22:34] <caitp> so what is the big selling point for sticking with promises, other than "we already shipped"
  634. # [22:34] <Domenic> they're a good abstraction. maybe not what you're used to if you come from C# and Rx.NET, but for people coming from many other languages, and from JavaScript itself, they're quite suitable.
  635. # [22:35] * Quits: frivoal (~frivoal@cm-84.208.175.177.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  636. # [22:35] <caitp> buuuut you admit that you need to invent a new variant of them which actually covers all the use cases
  637. # [22:35] <caitp> which doesn't seem very good
  638. # [22:35] <Domenic> why? why is it bad to extend something that exists instead of creating a whole new paradigm people have to learn and choose between?
  639. # [22:36] <Domenic> sometimes you want an array, sometimes you want a map, sometimes you want a set
  640. # [22:36] <caitp> I think because you're still creating a new paradigm, it's just that people will confuse one for the other inadvertently
  641. # [22:36] <Domenic> Doesn't mean arrays suck and when we "invented" maps/sets that means arrays are not very good
  642. # [22:37] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.245.27.38)
  643. # [22:37] <Domenic> analogy is imprecise since maps/sets are not a superset of arrays ... should have probably used iterables in there somewhere... but you get the idea.
  644. # [22:37] <Domenic> It's OK for multiple different-but-related things, with different powers, to exist to suit different use cases
  645. # [22:37] <caitp> it's closer to the ImmutableMap vs Map discussion
  646. # [22:37] <caitp> if people use ImmutableMap and Map interchangeably, they might have a problem
  647. # [22:37] <Domenic> Sure, that's pretty good, I agree.
  648. # [22:38] <wanderview> to be honest, there seemed many similarities between the Task and CancellablePromise concepts... they both ref counted users, etc
  649. # [22:38] <Domenic> Not quite a superset relation, but the different-but-similar tools for different situations is analogous
  650. # [22:38] <Domenic> wanderview: oh? last I saw tasks refused to be called more than once
  651. # [22:38] * Joins: frivoal (~frivoal@cm-84.208.175.177.getinternet.no)
  652. # [22:39] <wanderview> Domenic: I'm sure there are differences... but the promise extension being discussed seem closer to the Task thing
  653. # [22:39] <Domenic> wanderview: ah I see, they've changed since proposed at TC39 last week
  654. # [22:39] <Domenic> "proposed"
  655. # [22:40] <Domenic> I agree they seem to have coevolved
  656. # [22:41] <Domenic> The main difference at this point seems to be the C#-style separation between operation and subscription rather than the JavaScript-style both-in-one-object. Jafar is indeed not a fan of the JS style, whether it be for generators, iterators, or promises.
  657. # [22:41] <Domenic> I think if we take his Task thing and adapt it to JS style it does end up being CancelablePromise.
  658. # [22:42] <wanderview> Domenic: maybe just call it something completely different and split the difference :-) Its an Activity! and an Activity is a Promise
  659. # [22:42] <Domenic> haha
  660. # [22:42] <Domenic> haven't heard Activity before, that's fun :)
  661. # [22:42] <wanderview> Domenic: oh... or its a Suggestion which extends Promise... Suggestions can be ignored
  662. # [22:43] <Domenic> ah yes, the promises ecosystem needs more puns, definitely let's do that
  663. # [22:43] * wanderview stops "helping".
  664. # [22:43] * Domenic is still sad it ended up being "fulfilled" and "rejected" instead of "kept" and "broken"
  665. # [22:43] <caitp> heh
  666. # [22:44] <Domenic> new Promise((keep, break) => { /* oops SyntaxError :( */ })
  667. # [22:44] <JakeA> It all started with stringify. That was the start of the namepocalypse
  668. # [22:45] <wanderview> its a sad truth that bikeshedding names is more fun than c++
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