/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-04-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 07 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  116. # [03:59] <zewt> oh jesus
  117. # [03:59] <zewt> now nvidia's page is doing clipboard hijacking
  118. # [03:59] <zewt> browsers just need to drop copy events and mask copies from pages, it's too abused
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  196. # [08:06] <annevk> wanderview: reopened that bug
  197. # [08:07] <annevk> wanderview: "st" goes to the spec here, Hixie's idea of subdomains for everything works kind of awesome in that respect
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  211. # [08:44] <zcorpan> flash update is downloaded from fpdownload.macromedia.com ... :-)
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  227. # [09:23] <annevk> zewt: not providing pages those tools will have them insist on keeping Flash around :-(
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  281. # [11:50] <annevk> wanderview: put the revised version up on https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Storage and included some examples of how it can be used with IDB and Cache
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  313. # [13:07] <annevk> Clearly I still fail at GitHub. I downloaded xml5_draft with the GitHub client and created a branch I intended to use for a pull request (also available as option in the client these days), but now it claims I have no permission... I'm guessing that means I didn't actually have permission to create the branch, but the pull request should work I think... At least, the repository seems to allow them.
  314. # [13:07] <jgraham> If you don't have permission to access the upstream you have to create a branch in your fork and make the PR from that
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  317. # [13:10] <annevk> But would the PR button then create a PR on my fork or the original one?
  318. # [13:10] <annevk> The UI could do all that for me though if it knows I don't have permission... But I guess we're not quite there yet.
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  320. # [13:11] <jgraham> Against the original one
  321. # [13:12] <zcorpan> trying to spec a DOMMatrixInit where you can use either .a or .m11 but throw if they are both present with different values, becomes a bit messy. maybe i should only support .m11 for the dictionary?
  322. # [13:13] <zcorpan> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/a8931b3ebac8a418ca23
  323. # [13:14] <zcorpan> to fix https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2015JanMar/0119.html
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  328. # [13:18] <annevk> zcorpan: that email talks about exposing a-f and m11-m44, but more interesting is what internal slots it has I think
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  330. # [13:19] <annevk> zcorpan: but I guess you might still want to initialize from a-f since it's more convenient
  331. # [13:19] <zcorpan> annevk: internal slots is m11-m44
  332. # [13:19] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, that my thinking too
  333. # [13:20] <zcorpan> just needs more work for the impl
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  335. # [13:20] <annevk> zcorpan: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-mutationobserver-observe does a bunch of defaulting and throwing as well...
  336. # [13:21] <annevk> zcorpan: initialization of an object is not where impl cost is though
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  339. # [13:21] <annevk> zcorpan: it's somewhat meticulous work, but not exactly hard
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  342. # [13:21] <zcorpan> annevk: thx
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  405. # [15:12] <zewt> annevk: and i flashblock by default ... not sure i buy the logic that we should give sites the tools to be obnoxious so they use our thing to be obnoxious instead of flash, heh
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  407. # [15:14] <annevk> zewt: a lot of the sites that use it do it because users actually want that functionality as I understand it
  408. # [15:14] <annevk> zewt: I agree that UAs should offer the ability to block clipboard access
  409. # [15:15] <zewt> if I select text and copy it, it should copy what i told it to and not add freaking ads to the end
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  411. # [15:16] <zewt> even browser vendors don't always seem to understand that (address bar copying in firefox is a nightmare)
  412. # [15:16] <annevk> No disagreement there. I'm thinking about YouTube click-to-copy a link, and similar features elsewhere
  413. # [15:17] <zewt> the main annoying case is that pages can intercept when I copy selected text
  414. # [15:19] <zewt> (which I know is hard to completely prevent, but it's been made easier rather than harder lately iirc)
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  417. # [15:20] <annevk> I think Firefox offers options to disable that kind of prevention entirely
  418. # [15:21] <zewt> i see dom.event.clipboardevents.enabled, but that seems like too big of a hammer
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  430. # [15:39] <annevk> SimonSapin: what does https://github.com/servo/rust-url/blob/master/src/format.rs#L65 mean?
  431. # [15:40] <SimonSapin> annevk: it’s https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-serializing with the "exclude fragment flag"
  432. # [15:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: ah okay
  433. # [15:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: I thought it was talking about URLs which can't have a fragment
  434. # [15:41] <annevk> (which don't exist)
  435. # [15:41] <SimonSapin> ok
  436. # [15:44] <annevk> SimonSapin: if a Rust function lacks an explicit return, is the last line returned?
  437. # [15:44] <annevk> SimonSapin: well, last expression looks like
  438. # [15:44] <SimonSapin> the last expression, if it doesn’t end with ;
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  440. # [15:45] <SimonSapin> `if` and `match` are expressions
  441. # [15:45] <annevk> Because if it ends with ; I guess the last expression is empty?
  442. # [15:45] <SimonSapin> right
  443. # [15:46] <SimonSapin> ; can be viewed as a separator rather than a terminator
  444. # [15:46] <annevk> I'm trying to figure out how to best approach this parser rewrite in a way that also allows me to tackle the issue of handling URLs such as test://relative/something better...
  445. # [15:46] <SimonSapin> and the empty expression has type (), the empty tuple aka unit type
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  447. # [15:46] <annevk> But perhaps rewriting it as functional first and then tackling that would be better
  448. # [15:47] <SimonSapin> annevk: that sounds mostly orthogonal
  449. # [15:47] <SimonSapin> as in, test://relative/something involves figuring out the data model, independently of the algorithm style
  450. # [15:47] <annevk> SimonSapin: maybe, would be nice to have all the facts upfront :-)
  451. # [15:48] <SimonSapin> changing fewer things at a time may also be easier both to do and to review
  452. # [15:50] <annevk> Yeah, that's certainly true
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  458. # [15:56] <annevk> SimonSapin: such an interop drama that data model
  459. # [15:56] <annevk> SimonSapin: Chrome does resolve x against test://test/test "correctly", but reports a pathname of "//test/x"
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  461. # [15:57] <annevk> Safari splits it out in host and path
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  523. # [17:42] <wanderview> annevk: should we maintain the "simple v1" option next to this more complex option?
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  525. # [17:43] <annevk> wanderview: v1 would be to do less, but nothing that is incompatible I guess
  526. # [17:43] <annevk> wanderview: afaict we can ship most of the methods independently
  527. # [17:43] <wanderview> annevk: hmm... ok... I guess I just don't want the simple proposal to get caught up in bikeshedding the bigger proposal
  528. # [17:44] <annevk> wanderview: what would you consider a reasonable v1? I could add a "Rollout" section that discusses this
  529. # [17:45] <annevk> wanderview: v1: these methods; v2: the rest
  530. # [17:45] <annevk> wanderview: or do you think we need to present it differently?
  531. # [17:45] <wanderview> annevk: I think that would be reasonable... what you had for v1 before?
  532. # [17:45] <annevk> wanderview: so everything but boxes?
  533. # [17:46] <wanderview> annevk: yea, I think so
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  537. # [17:50] <annevk> wanderview: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Storage#Rollout
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  592. # [19:01] <wanderview> Domenic: annevk: does this address the concerns from yesterday? https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/issues/30#issuecomment-90647469
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  594. # [19:02] <wanderview> I think it effectively lets fetch steal the body from the original Request as it does today
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  600. # [19:06] <annevk> wanderview: you probably want to propose it without the shorthand syntax, or does that enable something that is lost on me?
  601. # [19:07] <wanderview> annevk: you mean without Request.pipeTo()? That is what enables Domenic's approach to see the consumer WritableStream directly
  602. # [19:07] <wanderview> its a rename of what we were calling setWriter()
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  605. # [19:09] <wanderview> annevk: Domenic: I guess the thing I don't know how to handle with the WritableStream revealer function is a tee() or clone() done by fetch in order to handle redirects
  606. # [19:11] <Domenic> I haven't had time to read much before heading to lunch but I'll just say that largely the point of separating stream and reader was so we could have this tiered high level/low level access. Building in a third tier seems quite bad from that perspective. Everything body-related should be on the res.body stream.
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  608. # [19:12] <Domenic> Alternately we could give up on separating the "response" and "response body" concepts and make Response subclass Readable(Byte)Stream
  609. # [19:13] <wanderview> Domenic: but... you're explicitly asking for something to bypass a body ReadableStream so you can see the consumer WritableStream directly...
  610. # [19:13] <Domenic> But anyway more after lunch
  611. # [19:13] <wanderview> Domenic: we don't have to call it pipeTo()... I just thought that accurately described the semantics we talked about yesterday... provide a WritableStream sink and begin pushing data there
  612. # [19:13] <wanderview> bye
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  622. # [19:22] <jgraham> Anyone remember jsbell's GH handle?
  623. # [19:22] <jgraham> Oh found it
  624. # [19:23] <jgraham> In related news: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4569
  625. # [19:23] <jgraham> wanderview: ^
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  630. # [19:26] <wanderview> jgraham: awesome!
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  636. # [19:31] <annevk> wanderview: I guess I'll bow out until you guys find something
  637. # [19:32] <annevk> I think I share tyoshino's ideas
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  681. # [20:19] <wanderview> annevk: I'm not sure where my idea conflicts with his... other than trying to do his "operations" ReadableStream idea... but I'm not sure how a wrapper really helps us here
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  686. # [20:22] <annevk> I wonder where JakeA is
  687. # [20:23] <annevk> wanderview: dunno
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  689. # [20:23] <annevk> wanderview: what do you think of the formalizing of boxes I did? Was that what you had in mind?
  690. # [20:23] <annevk> wanderview: I also added the examples you asked for how it would work with IDB and Cache
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  692. # [20:27] <wanderview> annevk: oh... I started to look at that and then got side-tracked... just a sec
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  695. # [20:30] <wanderview> annevk: hmm... would it be too magical if the name of a Cache or IDB matches a box name... then it is a box?
  696. # [20:30] <wanderview> I guess that would prevent multiple Cache object and IDBs in a single box
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  698. # [20:31] <wanderview> annevk: did you consider an API like StorageBox.add(caches.open("myCache")) ?
  699. # [20:32] <wanderview> or StorageBox.add(indexedDB.open("myDB"))
  700. # [20:33] * gavin_ is now known as gavin
  701. # [20:33] <wanderview> I guess it depends on if we want to be able to move a DB or Cache into a box or not... and if we want to support that from an implementation side
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  724. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Domenic: There's a `bikeshed debug --print-exports` command that lists exported vs non-exported terms. Note that only "dfn" type definition are unexported by default - all the rest automatically export unless you explicitly tell them not to.
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  731. # [21:22] <Domenic> TabAtkins: do you think it would be useful to have the index section mark exported items somehow?
  732. # [21:22] <Domenic> maybe it already adds a class and we just need to style it...
  733. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> Domenic: That's not useful information for a spec reader, so no. I've wanted to expose that more naturally for bikeshed users, but haven't given it enough thought to figure it out.
  734. # [21:24] <Domenic> It seems useful information for anyone writing a spec based on yours
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  739. # [21:31] <annevk> wanderview: the name matching seems too magical, .add() seems somewhat nice
  740. # [21:31] <annevk> wanderview: although it requires overloading of sorts on the boxes rather than the other APIs supporting boxes...
  741. # [21:32] <Domenic> wanderview: now that i read your thing it feels like it's just renaming .setWriter to .pipeTo, so I am less scared.
  742. # [21:32] <annevk> wanderview: but yeah, should probably tweak that
  743. # [21:32] <annevk> TabAtkins: any closer to a DOM PR?
  744. # [21:32] <annevk> TabAtkins: btw, if it could become a single commit in the end that'd be great
  745. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm like 1 hour of work away. I was just on vacation without internet for a week.
  746. # [21:32] <annevk> TabAtkins: that'd avoid spamming Twitter a bunch
  747. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> And yeah, no problem squishing the commits.
  748. # [21:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: ah hope you had a blast
  749. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> I did!
  750. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> BOARD GAME CRUISE THROUGH THE CARIBBEAN
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  752. # [21:34] <annevk> That's a thing? Haha nice
  753. # [21:34] <jamesr___> TabAtkins: i forgot to ask - did you play puerto rico?
  754. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> jamesr___: No, it wasn't brought on board I think.
  755. # [21:35] <terinjokes> i'm now interested in knowing what board games were played
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  757. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Tons. There were about 300 on board, chosen by the ~150 people registered for the con. (It was a normal cruise ship, so the other 5k people on board were just normal cruise people.)
  758. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> I played, let's see...
  759. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Pandemic: The Cure, Patchwork, Roll For The Galaxy, Caverna, Royals, Mysterium, Lords of Waterdeep, Castles of Burgundy, Far Space Foundry, Fleet, Xia, Key Market, Onirim, Abluxxan, and Istanbul.
  760. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> (I wrote down all of them.)
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  765. # [21:43] <terinjokes> wow. i think of those I've only ever played Pandemic
  766. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Note that Pandemic: The Cure is a fast dice-based version of Pandemic.
  767. # [21:44] <terinjokes> been wanting to startup my project of doing a new game on some regular-ish time schedule. i should get back to doing that!
  768. # [21:44] <terinjokes> ah, then nope
  769. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> (Like Roll For The Galaxy is a fast dice-based version of Race For The Galaxy.)
  770. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> All of these were new to me, too, which was part of the point of the cruise. ^_^ We were scoping out a bunch of things we were interested in buying.
  771. # [21:48] <terinjokes> nice
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  779. # [21:57] <Krinkle> annevk: Hm.. just ran into a fun issue with serialising our editor DOM to html. Comments.
  780. # [21:57] <Krinkle> createComment results in an invalid/unserializable DOM.
  781. # [21:57] <Krinkle> https://gist.github.com/Krinkle/1437de41481789ac6c96
  782. # [22:00] <Krinkle> We'll probably run html-escape (in addition to special entity scape for '-' so its xml compliant), and then someone decode that on the client side (using either a static map, or by parsing inside a detached <textarea> and retreiving textcontent?)
  783. # [22:00] <Krinkle> it's weird to html escape a value before passing to createComment though
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  786. # [22:08] <Domenic> I'm not terribly surprised... just more in the category of mismatches between createXYZ() and the parser
  787. # [22:10] <Krinkle> Domenic: One can basically insert arbitrary HTML in there, including <script>
  788. # [22:12] <Krinkle> In our case we're not actually appending to innerHTML, that's a terrible practice
  789. # [22:12] <Krinkle> Just doing that for simplicity sake
  790. # [22:12] <Krinkle> (and destroys references etc.)
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  792. # [22:16] <Krinkle> having some sort of text accessor on Comment nodes so that we can safely insert arbitrary user input into comment nodes would be useful.
  793. # [22:16] <Krinkle> And we'd have to either break createComment or create an alternate constructor.
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  795. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Some DOMs aren't serializable, that's not going to change
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  817. # [22:53] <Krinkle> Ms2ger: Interesting. Any other cases you have in mind?
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  823. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Krinkle|detached: there are several ways to use DOM to create unserializable documents. It's not too strange.
  824. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> For example, you can use DOM to insert an <a> child of an <a>, or have lone <tr>s floating around the document.
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  835. # [23:37] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  838. # [23:38] <Krinkle> TabAtkins: <a> inside <a> works fine in parsing though. Especially in XML.
  839. # [23:38] <Krinkle> It's not "allowed" but afaik works fine, no?
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  842. # [23:39] <Krinkle> Ah, interesting. It cuts off
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  845. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> No, "<a>foo<a>bar</a></a>" parses equivalent to "<a>foo</a><a>bar</a>".
  846. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  851. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> XML doesn't have special per-element parsing rules like the HTML parser does.
  852. # [23:40] <Krinkle> Our content model ensures that doesn't happen though. We treat anchor links the same way as bold/italic/etc. as annotations instead of elements. Which apply to offsets in text nodes.
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  854. # [23:40] <Krinkle> The tree is then created based on that.
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  857. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Sure, that's reasonable for an editor.
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  860. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> I was just providing some examples of "the DOM can produce something unserializable".
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  863. # [23:41] <Krinkle> but we visualise html comments (which some Wiki pages make heavy use of to leave info blurps to other editors) in our editor as <span>.
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  866. # [23:41] <Krinkle> But ran into this issue where some editors leave comments including "--" in a regular English sentence.
  867. # [23:42] <Krinkle> and then subsequently, broke our serialisation :-/
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  870. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> You can escape all - chars inside of comments, I suppose.
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  873. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> No, that'll break viewing source.
  874. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Replace them with unicode dashes. ^_^
  875. # [23:42] <Krinkle> It needs to round trip :)
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  880. # [23:43] <Krinkle> downstream reports are https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T95039 and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T95040
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  882. # [23:43] <Krinkle> It seems we're going to be encoding & - and >
  883. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Replace every -- with an emdash - they can only occur when the user is in your editor, so that's fine, and you can even roundtrip it by translating back. (That'd make actual em-dashes not *quite* roundtrip correctly, but hey, those are rare.)
  884. # [23:44] <Krinkle> Not rare if your user is a Wikipedian.
  885. # [23:44] <Krinkle> :P
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  891. # Session Close: Wed Apr 08 00:00:00 2015

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