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- # Session Start: Thu Apr 09 00:00:00 2015
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:00] <Domenic> they can set up a small buffer pool and reuse buffers to limit total consumption and GC churn ... it will work beautifully ... /me waves his hands
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- # [00:12] <wanderview> Domenic: sorry... I'm used to the DOM stuff which just enforces types and then says "using X's internal thing, do stuff"
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- # [00:14] <Domenic> wanderview: np, just concerned about the layering in the design. Ideally *ByteStream should be additive and opt-in, both for consumers and from an architectural level.
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- # [00:17] <wanderview> Domenic: to be honest, things like off-main-thread piping are mostly interesting to me for *ByteStream... for streams with potentially arbitrary js objects for chunks... not sure I can safely move those around off-thread
- # [00:17] <wanderview> not sure if that changes anything
- # [00:17] <Domenic> wanderview: oh, no, I was never really planning on them being off thread... but i want the model to not change drastically when you move from non-byte to byte streams
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- # [00:18] <Domenic> wanderview: although I guess it could be pretty useful in some cases e.g. if a UA provided stream wants to pass metadata with each chunk like { remotePort, remoteAddress, data } or something instead of just data
- # [00:19] <wanderview> Domenic: I built a bunch of node stream libs to do that kind of thing before... not sure anyone really liked it much
- # [00:19] <wanderview> https://blog.wanderview.com/blog/2013/03/01/composable-object-streams/
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- # [00:20] <Domenic> wanderview: do you have a summary of where we are on https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/issues/30 ? when i went to bed last night i think we were convering on new Request({ body: readableStream }) + fetch(request, wsRevealer) + cache.add(request, wsRevealer) or similar. But then it changed overnight and now I am confused.
- # [00:21] <wanderview> Domenic: I think DOM APIs would prefer to return a structured webidl object with a stream property (like Response)
- # [00:21] <Domenic> ?
- # [00:21] <wanderview> Domenic: I objected to putting wsRevealer on the consumer... because Request is no longer representative of the network request
- # [00:21] <Domenic> (I like the UDP object streams BTW!)
- # [00:22] <Domenic> Hmm was it ever?
- # [00:22] <Domenic> Isn't Request more like RequestMetadata?
- # [00:22] <wanderview> Domenic: no... before streams came into it, it contained all info to perform a network request
- # [00:22] <wanderview> including the body
- # [00:23] <Domenic> right, info to perform a network request, but not a network request itself....
- # [00:23] <Domenic> which is why you can store it in a cache; you can't store a network request in a cache...
- # [00:24] <wanderview> Domenic: correct... it is a representation of a possible network request... it is not an actual in progress network request... but if you move the body ws-revealer to fetch() then Request no longer fully describes the possible network request
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- # [00:24] <Domenic> hmmm
- # [00:24] <Domenic> i guess that's true
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- # [00:24] <Domenic> and ws-revealer is really "a sequence of instructions for how to create a body" so it still goes in the category of "representation of a possible network request"
- # [00:24] <wanderview> Domenic: look at my last proposal... it combines your WritableStream wrapper without the hard coded type switch
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- # [00:25] <Domenic> Although I doubt you'll store the ws-revealer in the cache...
- # [00:25] <Domenic> Yeah, I liked that, although unsure how it fits with the rest of the discussion up until that point
- # [00:25] <wanderview> Domenic: well, right now Cache only supports GET... so can't put a body in... but if you could, Cache would trigger ws-revealer to get the body data
- # [00:26] <wanderview> I still have all the code in gecko to store Request bodies
- # [00:26] <Domenic> hmm i see
- # [00:26] <Domenic> yeah i guess that makes sense
- # [00:26] <Domenic> you reify the body whenever the request gets "committed" somewhere
- # [00:27] <wanderview> those are fancy words, but I will nod my head
- # [00:27] <Domenic> :P
- # [00:27] <wanderview> does reify just mean normalize?
- # [00:27] <Domenic> nah ... i'm thinking of it as, make a real set of bytes out of a function that represents a way to get bytes
- # [00:28] <wanderview> ah, ok... serialize then
- # [00:28] <Domenic> ws-revealer is a "potential body" that gets reified into a real body when you fetch/cache-add
- # [00:28] <Domenic> yeah that i guess
- # [00:28] <wanderview> I should look up that term I guess
- # [00:28] <wanderview> I have more of an EE background so I tend to get lost in the CS theory world
- # [00:29] <Domenic> might be a mathematician thing, I dunno. Or just a pretentious thing :P
- # [00:29] <Domenic> so the current proposal is req.{setWriter/pipeTo} plus ... body(ws) { ... } which gets triggered after setWriter/pipeTo plus ... do we allow body: readableStream?
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- # [00:30] <wanderview> Domenic: I still want body: readableStream, yes
- # [00:30] <Domenic> poor overloaded body: option
- # [00:31] <wanderview> Domenic: didn't you hear? fetch is mostly about sugar :-)
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- # [00:32] <wanderview> Domenic: and to be clear... I only think we need this ws-revealer thing because of the desire to have progress notification that a pipe would obfuscate
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- # [00:34] <wanderview> Domenic: btw... resolving the .write() promises when written to the kernel is going to be somewhat challenging... in gecko we get notification from the network code about progress in a different path from where we write... so we have to match that progress back up to the promises to resolve, etc
- # [00:34] <wanderview> maybe not challenging... but annoying
- # [00:36] <Domenic> :-S
- # [00:36] <wanderview> much easier to integrate that with a progress event (which is what it was designed for, of course)
- # [00:36] <Domenic> Well, there's https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/316 ...
- # [00:36] <trevnorris> wanderview: doubt this'll have any affect on the spec here, but in previous implementations I've had calls like .write() return a request object so you can trace the status at any point in the future.
- # [00:37] <trevnorris> e.g. .progress() to see how much has been written.
- # [00:37] <trevnorris> I use that in conjunction with timeouts to cancel writes that are taking too long.
- # [00:37] <wanderview> Domenic: for example, I think gecko network code throttles progress notifications to once every 50ms or something... so you will see batches of .write() promises resolves at the same time, etc.
- # [00:38] <wanderview> trevnorris: sounds like you want cancellable promises :-)
- # [00:38] * wanderview trolls
- # [00:38] <Domenic> wanderview: lol, because the spec says 50 ms, good times :P
- # [00:38] <trevnorris> hehe. ;)
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- # [00:42] <trevnorris> wanderview: is it possible to do something like: var req = ws.write(data); setTimeout(function(req) { if (req.status() != 'complete') req.abort(); }, 1000); ?
- # [00:44] <wanderview> trevnorris: I think you would have to call ws.abort() instead of req.abort()
- # [00:44] <trevnorris> wanderview: what if you did ws.write(data1) ws.write(data2) and I only wanted to abort writing data1?
- # [00:44] <Domenic> with cancelable promises you could do `var p = ws.write(data); setTimeout(() => p.cancel(), 1000). (Assuming calling p.cancel() does nothing on an already-settled promise)
- # [00:45] <trevnorris> already-settled promise?
- # [00:45] <wanderview> trevnorris: that seems racy to me... you may end up with data1 and data2 or just data2... also, not all write operations are abortable once they start, etc
- # [00:45] <Domenic> already fulfilled or rejected
- # [00:46] <Domenic> yeah, how does that work in POSIX?
- # [00:46] <trevnorris> wanderview: if you've queued up several chunks of data to be written, and only the first has actually been sent to the kernel it should be possible to remove any specific write req from the queue.
- # [00:47] <wanderview> trevnorris: in a multi-threaded environment... it may have been sent to the kernel and you just haven't been notified of it yet
- # [00:47] <boogyman> can you elaborate on a scenario where a Promise could be resolved while a "child" Promise has yet to resolve?
- # [00:47] <bradleymeck> its important to remember cancellation does not mean abrupt termination
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- # [00:47] <bradleymeck> just that it should cancel at the next point
- # [00:47] <Domenic> boogyman: what is a child promise
- # [00:47] <trevnorris> wanderview: as soon as the data is handed off to something else I'll consider it unreachable. in the case of Node I know because we make the call to uv_write() directly.
- # [00:47] <bradleymeck> if there is not a clearly defines point of cancellation, something should not be cancellable
- # [00:48] <bradleymeck> defined*
- # [00:48] <boogyman> Domenic: however you define "p.cancel()" on an already resolved p
- # [00:48] <Domenic> i don't understand
- # [00:48] <Domenic> please phrase your question using code?
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- # [00:48] <wanderview> trevnorris: "something else" is another thread? or the kernel? because in multi-process browsers it goes js->c++->IPC->c++->kernel with thread and process switches in there
- # [00:48] <bradleymeck> if cancellation is inteded to be similar to abort()/halting a thread it should be rethought
- # [00:49] * bradleymeck can't type today
- # [00:49] <wanderview> right now ws.write() does not return a cancellable promise...
- # [00:49] <wanderview> this is all hand wving
- # [00:49] <wanderview> waving
- # [00:49] <trevnorris> wanderview: anything that takes control away from us over the lifetime of the data. but if I have an array of data chunks and only the first has been sent to uv_write() then the others should be able to be removed from their position in the queue.
- # [00:49] <boogyman> `var p = ws.write(data); setTimeout(() => p.cancel(), 1000). (Assuming calling p.cancel() does nothing on an already-settled promise) <-- Under what circumstance would be have already been resolved if it is dependent upon ws.write(data)
- # [00:50] <boogyman> would p.cancel()*
- # [00:50] <wanderview> trevnorris: does uv_write() do file writing on a separate IO thread or the main thread?
- # [00:50] <Domenic> boogyman: the adjective "resolved" does not apply to the function call p.cancel(), nor to its return value (which is undefined)
- # [00:50] <trevnorris> wanderview: main thread.
- # [00:50] <bradleymeck> wanderview: but I think at that point the cancellation point would be if the kernel gets it still, once it gets to the kernel it cannot be stopped, so attempts at cancellation would need to propagate to the C++ that flushes to the kernel, and if it has started flushing it is in an uncancellable state
- # [00:50] <Domenic> trevnorris: false?
- # [00:50] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
- # [00:51] <trevnorris> wanderview: though I agree that if the data chunks were immediately sent to another thread to be written then we would have "lost control". thus cancel would only be a notification that we no longer need to be notified of its completion.
- # [00:51] <trevnorris> Domenic: eh?
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- # [00:51] <Domenic> trevnorris: fs writes in io are done in a threadpool?
- # [00:51] <wanderview> trevnorris: ok, then you don't have to deal with the races I do... trying to pick out a single buffer to cancel is going to be hit or miss in browsers or other multi-threaded environments
- # [00:51] <bradleymeck> they are queued on the main thread though
- # [00:51] <trevnorris> Domenic: they're a special case. uv_wirte() and uv_try_write() is always done on the main thread.
- # [00:52] <trevnorris> *uv_write()
- # [00:52] <bradleymeck> ?
- # [00:52] <Domenic> trevnorris: ah, I thought we were talking about file I/O since wanderview asked "does uv_write() do file writing". I guess uv_write is for sockets?
- # [00:52] <trevnorris> yes. sorry I missed that. uv_write() is only for sockets.
- # [00:53] <trevnorris> filesystem I/O is a pain thanks to kernel incompatibilities.
- # [00:53] <Domenic> gotcha
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- # [00:53] <wanderview> Domenic: what I am getting is they treat the "write is complete" state when it leaves main thread... which might not quite be to kernel
- # [00:53] <Domenic> yeah
- # [00:53] <wanderview> Domenic: which is different from your goal of "bytes written to kernel"
- # [00:53] <wanderview> I'm not sure to-kernel is all that much better than an app internal checkpoint
- # [00:53] <Domenic> if you are sure that writes respect backpressure, maybe "accepted and queued" is a good enough proxy for upload progress...
- # [00:53] <wanderview> but willing to try to support it
- # [00:54] <trevnorris> it's possible to share memory on the req across threads so read-only fields can be used to check its status.
- # [00:54] <wanderview> trevnorris: you have an atomic check-and-set for cancellation across threads?
- # [00:54] <bradleymeck> wanderview: I think at either point cancellation is a suggestion to w/e you handed it off to
- # [00:55] <bradleymeck> it needs to be able to continue the work if it has started side effects already
- # [00:55] <bradleymeck> no real need for locking to my knowledge
- # [00:55] <wanderview> bradleymeck: exactly... I guess I was just getting at I find it hard to reason about the need to cancel buffer1 and let buffer2 through... when you cannot know if you got to buffer1 in time
- # [00:55] <trevnorris> wanderview: right now only have it so if I've queued up many small buffers to be written I can check how many of them have actually been sent to the kernel.
- # [00:55] <bradleymeck> i don't think you should be allowed to know at the time of cancellation
- # [00:56] <trevnorris> wanderview: streaming video for example. say you're buffering data to be written. it's better that frames are lost and the data stays current then making sure all the data goes through.
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- # [00:57] <bradleymeck> wanderview: to rephrase, I cannot think of a good reason you should be allowed to know that buffer1 was cancelled before it calls .finally
- # [00:57] <wanderview> Domenic: I think we are still not on the same page here: https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/issues/30#issuecomment-91057900
- # [00:58] <bradleymeck> which to me resolves the problem of reasoning
- # [00:58] <wanderview> I guess I'm happy we don't yet allow canceling individual .write() calls... and if we did, I think it would very much have to be a "best effort"
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- # [00:59] <wanderview> bradleymeck: sure... I think I understand better that its a best effort cancel, for example the video streaming case mentioned
- # [00:59] <bradleymeck> which is good, I want "best effort" and not guaranteed
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- # [01:00] <bradleymeck> cause once side effects start / external systems are involved you need to let them resolve back to valid states (say if you have not finished writing)
- # [01:00] <bradleymeck> guaranteed cancel would require external systems to stay in valid and buffered states which is a no-no
- # [01:00] <wanderview> Domenic: I'll respond in bug... but I think very much "setWriter()" should function like a pipeTo()... we could call it drainToWriter() or something if you want
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- # [01:03] <trevnorris> wanderview: doing an atomic field set so the writing thread can check if the queue from another thread is still needed is very much possible.
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- # [02:22] <wanderview> Domenic: ok... I have data that shows multiple read() calls with a promise each is much slower than being able to read buffered chunks synchronously
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- # Session Close: Thu Apr 09 02:24:47 2015
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- # Session Start: Thu Apr 09 02:24:47 2015
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [02:26] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [02:26] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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- # [02:27] <wanderview> Domenic: open this and look in your console: https://blog.wanderview.com/streams-promise-read/bluebird.html
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- # [02:28] <wanderview> code is here: https://github.com/wanderview/streams-promise-read
- # [02:34] <Domenic> wanderview: needs I/O to be a real test
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- # [02:34] <Domenic> All you are testing there is promises vs. loops
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- # [02:35] <Domenic> Not the impact of promises on streams
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- # [02:39] <zewt> i wonder what middle-managery person at mozilla thought having a "start a conversation" button in the toolbar was a cool idea
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- # [02:50] <wanderview> Domenic: its the case I described before... the I/O was done previously and written to a pipe... now a consumer is reading from a pipe to process it (perhaps all in memory)
- # [02:50] <wanderview> Domenic: this is the case you said "needs citation" above
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- # [02:52] <wanderview> Domenic: from here: http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=8+Apr+2015&e=8+Apr+2015&h=citation#c944489
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- # [03:08] <Domenic> wanderview: I must have misinterpreted. That's not streaming at all... Just buffering.
- # [03:09] <wanderview> Domenic: so buffering is not supported in this stream model?
- # [03:10] <Domenic> wanderview: a 1000-chunk high water Mark is unrealistic
- # [03:10] <Domenic> of course it is, but you shouldn't use a stream when you're just buffering all data in memory anyway
- # [03:10] <wanderview> Domenic: I'm not saying 1000 is realistic... but 10 chunks is a realistic bugger
- # [03:10] <wanderview> buffer
- # [03:11] <Domenic> A pipe should terminate in I/O on one side or the other
- # [03:11] <wanderview> Domenic: I thought you were gone for the evening so I wrote my thoughts here: https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/320#issuecomment-91083647
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- # [03:12] <Domenic> If it takes x time to read from the pipe with promises, 0.04x time with batch, and 1000x time to put data in the pipe in the first place, I'm not too concerned.
- # [03:12] <Domenic> I kind of am gone, should probably turn off notifications :p
- # [03:13] <wanderview> Domenic: I feel like we've pessimized a common case in order to allow an optimization in obscure case later
- # [03:13] <Domenic> I do not think chunks being synchronously generated in a batch is common.
- # [03:14] <Domenic> Chunks come from somewhere, ultimately, perhaps after several transforms, but ultimately from I/O. This example does not show that.
- # [03:16] <Domenic> Just read your comment... 6 ms is a lot... Absolute numbers help.
- # [03:18] <Domenic> Except... 625 microseconds is actually 0.6 ms
- # [03:18] <Domenic> Oh, it's per chunk
- # [03:19] <wanderview> Domenic: yea, sorry... I was trying to make the number easier to compare... so I normalized per chunk
- # [03:19] <Domenic> Although I wonder if the code is just not hot enough for the optimizer to kick in for 10 chunks
- # [03:20] <Domenic> Maybe do 10 chunks in a loop or something
- # [03:20] <wanderview> Domenic: well, the higher number loops suggest the sync loop optimizes much better than the promise loop can be optimized... not surprising
- # [03:20] <Domenic> Or ten chunks every requestAnimationFrame, since eating the frame budget is the real concern
- # [03:20] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Yo, sorry for the digression, but random help here: it's a bad idea for an attribute to sometimes be updated sync and sometimes async, according to unknowable impl-specific criteria, right?
- # [03:21] <Domenic> I'm not concerned about the relative numbers (see my "x" comment above), but about eating 6 ms of frame budget
- # [03:21] <Domenic> TabAtkins: sounds bad, although I could imagine cases that fit that description which are probably ok?
- # [03:22] <wanderview> Domenic: if we expect this only to happen for modest buffer sizes... I don't see how we can expect the loop to get super hot
- # [03:22] <TabAtkins> Well, the case is whether a FontFace.status is set to "unloaded" or "loading". Currently it's always async, but jdaggett/heycam want it to be set syncly when possible (font is a data url, a blob url, a cached font, etc)
- # [03:23] <wanderview> Domenic: anyway, I have to go crash and sleep for 12 hours... talk to you tomorrow!
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- # [03:24] <Domenic> Cached sounds skeevy.... Others sound somewhat reasonable
- # [03:24] <Domenic> wanderview: ok cool, I'll probably fork your thing and experiment
- # [03:24] <wanderview> Domenic: please do... just don't judge me by my javascript :-)
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- # [03:26] <wanderview> Domenic: btw... looking at the results I think the jit kicked in at 100 chunks... there was an across the board improvement there... the sync loop got another boost from some optimization going from 1000 chunks to 10,000 chunks... but the promise loop did not
- # [03:26] <wanderview> in spidermonkey of cours.e.. don't know what chrome does
- # [03:27] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I think some of the normal zalgo hazards don't apply here because I can't see a way for code to be written that assumes always sync or always async
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- # [03:28] <Domenic> wanderview: yeah, we need to make sure the code is hot before benchmarking. Kinda pointless to measure non hot code since it doesn't need to be fast.
- # [03:28] <TabAtkins> Cached I definitely see - easy for a dev to accidentally work with cached fonts, and write broken code for users.
- # [03:29] <TabAtkins> And I can see some browsers considering some types of urls as sync, while others dont'.
- # [03:29] <Domenic> TabAtkins: but what kind of code would run into this? I would think conditionals on ff.status would work in either case.
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- # [03:32] <TabAtkins> Man, I dunno. It just feels super icky to have a line in a spec that says "If you want you can do this part sync, lol i dunno"
- # [03:33] <Domenic> Yeah, it would have to be normative which cases are sync
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- # [03:47] <wanderview> Domenic: yea, you are right... let me add a call to the tests to prime the jit
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- # [03:58] <wanderview> Domenic: I think I agree the read() promise is fast enough for browsers... but also agree with trevnorris that its probably inadequate for what node.js needs... not sure we can get something that works perfectly for both
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- # [11:46] <zcorpan> ok any opinions on naming? document.scrollingElement? document.viewportElement? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Apr/0108.html
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- # [11:52] <paul_irish> document.viewportElement sgtm
- # [11:53] <zcorpan> thanks paul_irish
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- # [13:09] <roc> scrollingElement
- # [13:09] <roc> viewportElement isn't correct
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- # [13:14] <zcorpan> roc: it will be correct when webkit/blink have fixed scrollTop, no?
- # [13:17] <zcorpan> i guess background/overflow have different rules, but i think things would work as intended if this API is used for those also
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- # [14:59] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: wanna polyfill http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-scrollingelement ?
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- # [15:01] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: sounds like fun! will do
- # [15:02] <zcorpan> :-)
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- # [17:52] <calvaris> Domenic: I am writing more tests
- # [17:52] <calvaris> and it seems that I can construct if I pass undefined to the constructor
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- # [17:52] <calvaris> which should be equivalent to pass no arguments, right?
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- # [17:55] <Ms2ger> For optional arguments, yes
- # [17:55] <Ms2ger> For required arguments, no
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- # [18:05] <mcnesium> my new wordpress does have a valid rss feed but safari on iOS and OSX do not show the "reader" sign. any idea what might be wrong? http://mcnesium.com
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- # [18:33] <calvaris> in this case, the object can be constructed with no arguments, so we can assume argument is optional
- # [18:34] <calvaris> can't we?
- # [18:35] <wanderview> Domenic: do you know why the promise cases in the benchmark all take longer to settle than the sync cases?
- # [18:35] <wanderview> Domenic: is that just variability from runnables in the event queue?
- # [18:35] <calvaris> Ms2ger: ?
- # [18:36] <calvaris> I guess it is not
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- # [18:37] <calvaris> because in myFunction(myArgument = {}) {} it is different to call myFunction() than myFunction(undefined)
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- # [18:41] <calvaris> no, it's the same thing
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- # [19:42] <wanderview> Domenic: can you explain again why we need async read() always on getReader()... instead of making getReader().read() sync and getByobReader.read() async?
- # [19:43] <wanderview> sorry... I know you've explained before
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- # [19:51] <caitp-> dunno his reasons, but if it's sometimes sync and sometimes async, that's not great for usability
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- # [20:01] <wanderview> caitp-: no... its only async if you explicitly opt-in to the "bring my own buffer" optimization... and then its always async
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- # [20:01] <caitp-> yes, and then if you pass that reader to something that doesn't know you brought your own or not, it may or may not be async
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- # [20:15] <wanderview> caitp-: that reader has its own type... they are not compatible with each other already
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- # [20:36] <caitp-> if they can be used the same way, you can probably expect that they would be
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- # [20:46] <wanderview> caitp-: agree in principal, but not sure if its worth baking a performance penalty into getReader() just to satisfy aesthetic similarity to getByobReader()
- # [20:47] <caitp-> i'm sure domenic's reasons are better ones
- # [20:47] <caitp-> or at least, he's probably spending more time thinking about it =p
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- # [23:33] <wanderview> hmm... does chrome has something like URLSearchParams?
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- # [23:36] <caitp> doesn't look like it
- # [23:36] <caitp> well, "something like", probably just a JSObject
- # [23:38] <caitp> not even a JSObject
- # [23:38] <caitp> not exposed on the interface, and no TODO. should file :o
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- # [23:44] <caitp> i guess it is filed
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- # [23:48] <wanderview> yea... I guess that part of the URL spec just needs to be implemented
- # [23:49] <jgraham> Is there some way to tell if the origin of a page changed at some point (i.e. that document.domain was set)
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- # [23:55] <caitp> there's no event triggered in the setter algorithm, or anything
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- # Session Close: Fri Apr 10 00:00:00 2015
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