/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-04-16 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 16 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [05:05] <wanderview> Domenic: I don't think I'm going to get to writing that systems benchmark for async read any time soon
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# [05:09] <wanderview> too many Cache fires to put out
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# [05:35] <annevk_> TabAtkins: awesome, will review later
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# [05:42] <wanderview> annevk: you must be up with a baby?
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# [05:48] <annevk> wanderview: hehe
# [05:48] <annevk> wanderview: he is a bit sick
# [05:49] <wanderview> ouch :-(
# [05:49] <wanderview> thats no fun
# [05:49] <annevk> wanderview: but also I'm suffering from some sleeping trouble this week
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# [05:49] <wanderview> ah... thats no fun either
# [05:49] <annevk> wanderview: it's more me than him I think :-) he holds it together pretty well
# [05:50] <wanderview> annevk: I've had this thing lately where I can sleep from 9pm to 10pm... then wake up until midnight
# [05:50] <annevk> wanderview: anyway, after I took care of him I decided to take a bath and then got a bunch of ideas for work so I decided to write them down
# [05:50] <annevk> ugh
# [05:51] <wanderview> awesome... new storage features based on dreams!
# [05:51] <wanderview> :-)
# [05:52] <wanderview> and... my daughter just woke up
# [05:52] <annevk> "dream" boxes are fairly magical
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# [06:01] <wanderview> ok... finally done with this cache mess for the night... g'night
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# [07:43] <Domenic> annevk: would you be interested in my streams build system that generates commit snapshots, allows you to avoid committing generated output to the repo, and runs bikeshed on a CI server to ensure you always get the latest code?
# [07:43] <annevk> Domenic: possibly if you are up for maintaining it
# [07:44] <annevk> Domenic: trying to fix the DOM header at the moment
# [07:44] <Domenic> annevk: yeah I've been planning to generalize/document it for a while, if I have a customer lined up that'll be extra incentive
# [07:44] <annevk> Domenic: both DOM and URL could make use of it
# [07:44] <Domenic> annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/index.bs#L15-L19 may help
# [07:44] <annevk> Domenic: hopefully more down the line
# [07:44] <Domenic> Notifications too IIRC
# [07:44] <annevk> Domenic: yes
# [07:44] <annevk> thanks to Peter
# [07:45] <annevk> Domenic: with Fetch I opted to first link to the repo and then have (new issue, open issues) following it
# [07:46] <Domenic> Hmm that is kind of nice
# [07:47] <Domenic> why does Firefox randomly decide it likes svg favicons... ~1/20 tabs I open to a WHATWG spec have a nice favicon, seemingly at random.
# [07:48] <Domenic> Huh there's a whole caniuse for this http://caniuse.com/#feat=link-icon-svg
# [07:48] <Domenic> Well I guess that explains it https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366324#c14
# [07:49] <annevk> Domenic: do you know why I have to include "URL: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org" to get relative links to DOM definitions?
# [07:49] <annevk> Domenic: including that also generates a "This version" field which is pointless
# [07:49] <annevk> Domenic: you don't seem to have that at all
# [07:49] <Domenic> Yeah was just checking... hmm
# [07:50] <Domenic> I don't use {{ microsyntaxes though just <a>term</a>, maybe that's the difference?
# [07:50] <annevk> TabAtkins: you awake?
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# [07:52] <TabAtkins> annevk: What's up?
# [07:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: various things it seems
# [07:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: why do I need to include URL: ...? I don't want "This version" but I also want relative links
# [07:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: Domenic filed various issues on things that are wrongish, e.g. https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/22
# [07:53] <Domenic> https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues is mostly me at this point
# [07:53] <TabAtkins> Ooh, I wonder if I'm skipping over <code> elements for autolink processing?
# [07:56] <TabAtkins> I guess you don't need URL; looks like Streams doesn't have it.
# [07:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2015Apr/0027.html seems like nice progress
# [07:56] <annevk> TabAtkins: if I remove it all fragment-only links get that URL prepended
# [07:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
# [07:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: I wonder what happened
# [07:57] <MikeSmith> they got smarter?
# [07:57] <MikeSmith> they got smarter people in to work on it?
# [07:57] <TabAtkins> annevk: URL metadata definitely has zero effect on links, so I dunno what you think is going on. Gimme a specific element that's being weird, so I can check it out?
# [07:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: if I'd be cynical I'd say it's too thwart the competition
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# [07:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: hmm maybe it was another field I changed
# [07:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe you're right https://twitter.com/dakami/status/588548153504239616
# [07:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: does Shortname have an effect?
# [07:59] <annevk> to*
# [07:59] <Domenic> I too find the existence of shortname confusing
# [07:59] <TabAtkins> Yes it does; gimme a sec.
# [08:00] <MikeSmith> https://people.freebsd.org/~rrs/asiabsd_2015_tls.pdf seems like it has some pretty interesting details about their deployment/implementation
# [08:00] <Domenic> Oh nice file-issue.js just worked :D
# [08:01] <annevk> Domenic: yeah also did for Notifications, very nice
# [08:02] <TabAtkins> At minimum, Shortname lets Bikeshed know what definitions in the linking database are for the current spec, so it should ignore them (rather than treating them as ambiguous link targets).
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# [08:02] <TabAtkins> If you did multiple levels, Shortname+Level helps with that in a similar way.
# [08:03] <Domenic> So shortname is an index into the bikeshed linking database?
# [08:04] <TabAtkins> It's one of the things that identifies an anchor, yeah.
# [08:04] <TabAtkins> When you set a Link Defaults, it's the shortname that you're specifying.
# [08:05] <Domenic> then i guess my question is who's squatting on "dom" and forcing "dom-core-ls" on us :P
# [08:07] <annevk> TabAtkins: two issues left https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues and I guess the question who's squatting "dom" :-)
# [08:07] <TabAtkins> Looks like nobody - I don't see "dom" in the linking database.
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# [08:09] <TabAtkins> I'll just need to change it in Shepherd to track the alteration. Want me to do so?
# [08:09] <TabAtkins> (The -ls is the level part; the shortname is dom-core.)
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# [08:13] <annevk> TabAtkins: so it would be dom-ls?
# [08:13] <annevk> TabAtkins: might be nice to just get it over with now
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# [08:20] <TabAtkins> k, done
# [08:20] <TabAtkins> Shortname is now "dom".
# [08:20] <TabAtkins> Full levelled name is "dom-ls".
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# [08:21] <TabAtkins> Oh, and looks like the reason your shortname was set to dom-core is because that was the name of your index file - dom-core.html.
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# [08:29] <annevk> TabAtkins: looks like https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#htmlcollection is missing some links too
# [08:29] <annevk> TabAtkins: and dfn.js appears broken
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# [08:30] <TabAtkins> What links do you think it's missing? (Besides the {{}} stuff showing up.)
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# [08:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: item and namedItem are not clickable
# [08:34] <annevk> TabAtkins: and index and name are marked bold while they're really variables
# [08:34] <annevk> the latter might be a Bikeshed thing
# [08:34] <annevk> (talking about the IDL block)
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# [08:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I see that item/nameditem aren't properly picking up the definitions later. (They're giving an independent definition, and I'm trying to figure out why.)
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# [08:36] <TabAtkins> Arguments are marked up/defined in Bikeshed. If you don't want them styled specially, add a `dfn[data-dfn-type=argument]` style rule.
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# [08:39] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see, I have some lingering hackiness from when I was doing IDL worse. Hmmm.
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# [08:49] <TabAtkins> Ugh, it's as I thought. I've got a mutually reinforcing set of legacy hacks from back when I wasn't handling IDL correctly, and fixing them properly will be some work. I'll get on that tomorrow.
# [08:49] * TabAtkins is pretty sure he'll need some extra data files for efficient querying of function overloads.
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# [08:56] <annevk> TabAtkins: thanks, happy we got this far :-)
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# [09:17] <annevk> Domenic: if I wanted to fix some things in Streams, should I PR index.bs or just file issues?
# [09:19] * annevk will file issues for now
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# [10:53] <zcorpan> FATAL ERROR: No 'idl' refs found for 'Document' with spec 'dom-core-ls'. -_-
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# [11:14] <zcorpan> hmm seems it's fine when generated on the server
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# [11:15] <zcorpan> but i get mail saying to choose between svg2 and html5 for {{Document}}
# [11:15] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: ^
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# [11:28] <annevk> zcorpan: use 'dom' or 'dom-ls' as token
# [11:29] <zcorpan> annevk: that still gives fatal error for `Document`. but maybe this will fix itself since it's generated without warnings on csswg server
# [11:30] <zcorpan> (and it points to the dom spec)
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# [11:42] <annevk> zcorpan: TabAtkins did note something about Document not working well
# [11:42] <annevk> zcorpan: maybe file an issue against bikeshed?
# [11:43] <zcorpan> ok
# [11:43] <annevk> zcorpan: hopefully everything WHATWG can be bikeshed by end-of-year (prolly minus HTML)
# [11:46] <zcorpan> https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/387
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# [15:33] <mounir_> Ms2ger: default values for dictionary would allow: dictionary Bar { DOMString[] foo = []; }; ?
# [15:33] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
# [15:34] <mounir_> Ms2ger: no default values for array or sequences?
# [15:34] <Ms2ger> Not that I recall
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# [16:08] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, is FileAPI the awful formatting spec?
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# [16:24] <annevk> mounir_: also, DOMString[] is not valid there
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# [16:24] <annevk> mounir_: you want sequence
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# [16:24] <Domenic> How many specs would we have to update to change X[] to LegacyFakeArrayLike<X>, I wonder.
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# [16:25] <mounir_> annevk: readonly sequence<DOMString> in the Event interface too?
# [16:26] <annevk> mounir_: we don't have a good thing for that yet
# [16:27] <mounir_> it sounds good to you to have sequence<> in EventInit and DOMString[] in the Event interface?
# [16:27] <mounir_> annevk: ^
# [16:28] <annevk> mounir_: no, [] is never good
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# [16:28] <annevk> mounir_: see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23682
# [16:28] <annevk> Domenic: too many
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# [16:52] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Depends on what you mean by "awful formatting".
# [16:52] <Ms2ger> What you complained about on twitter :)
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# [16:54] <TabAtkins> Oh, yeah, it was terrible.
# [16:54] <TabAtkins> Some lists had their <li>s indented four or five different ways, for 9 items.
# [16:55] <TabAtkins> And, like, the ids for sections dont' follow any pattern. The Blob IDs are totally different structure from the File IDs.
# [16:55] <TabAtkins> So much inconsistency laced throughout the entire thing.
# [16:56] <TabAtkins> And don't get me started on the spec starting with a 2-space indent, but of course randomly switching to 3 or 4 space in some places.
# [16:58] <caitp> i'm surprised nobody came up with a clang-formatter for whatever the spec docs are written in
# [16:59] <TabAtkins> I've strongly considered it.
# [16:59] <TabAtkins> But it's a lot of work. ^_^
# [16:59] <caitp> somewhere out there there's a bored highschool student who'd do it
# [17:00] <TabAtkins> Well, who'd do it halfway.
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# [17:16] <jgraham> So which is the most reusable "file a bug on this bit of spec" script these days?
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# [17:18] <TabAtkins> Apparently the one DOM/Streams is using just works out of the box pretty good.
# [17:18] <Domenic> jgraham: file-bug.js for W3C bugtrackers, file-issue.js for GitHub
# [17:18] <jgraham> Domenic: From dom/streams?
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# [17:21] <annevk> jgraham: it's on resources.whatwg.org
# [17:21] <jgraham> Domenic: Right, got it, thanks
# [17:21] <jgraham> annevk: Thanks also
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# [17:21] <jgraham> And also TabAtkins
# [17:21] <jgraham> So much thanks!
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# [17:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah that spec was a bit of a disaster
# [17:22] <TabAtkins> annevk: Well Im fixing it, at least. Since it's a much shorter spec, only ~1900 lines, I can do a thorough reformat without killing myself.
# [17:22] <TabAtkins> DOM made me want to die.
# [17:23] <annevk> DOM is pretty big
# [17:23] <TabAtkins> Which is why it took 3 months to finish. ^_^
# [17:23] <TabAtkins> At least you were *extremely* consistent in link formatting, which made things *way* easier.
# [17:23] <TabAtkins> I often find a given term linked with four different syntaxes in FileAPI.
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# [17:24] <annevk> Yeah, I optimize for basic search and replace that doesn't require regular expressions
# [17:25] <TabAtkins> My fingers and sanity thank you for it.
# [17:25] <TabAtkins> And thank jgraham, while I'm at it.
# [17:25] <Ms2ger> ?
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# [17:26] <flyrock> TabAtkins, annevk ! I have only read one book on html/css , no experience , that was responsive web design by ben frain. and i wanna be one of you guys, where to start.
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# [17:27] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Well, he was thanking all of us, so I felt I had to return the favor.
# [17:27] <Ms2ger> Ah, heh
# [17:28] <TabAtkins> flyrock: My path was to learn web dev, subscribe to the standards mailing lists, gradually learn how things worked (and why they worked the way they did), and then finally find a topic I was passionate about and thought I could improve.
# [17:28] <TabAtkins> flyrock: So if you're just starting, you've got a few years of experience-building to go before you should consider trying to work on specs. ^_^
# [17:29] <flyrock> TabAtkins,i got it, thanks for you time, will keep bugging you occasionally !
# [17:29] <TabAtkins> np
# [17:30] <TabAtkins> (Of course, the topic I thought I could improve I still did a lot of damage to - yay gradients! But the end-result was indeed much better.)
# [17:33] <flyrock> i suppose that's you being modest. :)
# [17:33] <TabAtkins> No, I really fucked it up and did a lot of damage. It's all healed over now, but dealing with the four different gradient syntaxes that existed at the same time was hellish.
# [17:34] <caitp> you can't accomplish anything without ruining at least one other thing, that's just how it goes
# [17:34] <TabAtkins> When god closes a door, he breaks a window.
# [17:34] <flyrock> TabAtkins, I think i will take some time to decipher what you explained, but we will sure talk about it.
# [17:36] <TabAtkins> flyrock: Just dont' jump ahead of yourself. Spec work is weird meta-work over webdev. You need a strong webdev knowledge base to do it well, and even then most people aren't suited for it, and that's fine.
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# [17:36] <TabAtkins> It requires a bizarre mix of patience and impatience that is intensely frustrating to most people.
# [17:36] <TabAtkins> So most newbies to spec stuff only stick around a few months before going back to doing productive work. ^_^
# [17:37] <TabAtkins> Heh, my favorite tech reported just faved a "your mom" joke made against me.
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# [17:39] <flyrock> cool ! I will remember not to jump ahead and the mix of patience and impatience
# [17:39] <flyrock> and yeah, webdev !
# [17:41] <caitp> in a few years you can be one of the few, the proud, billionaire lamborghini driving spec editors, with girls chasing you all around the state, if you just remember to keep your patience and impatience in the right balance
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# [17:41] <TabAtkins> Hey, hey, we don't know what flyrock prefers, they can have boys chasing them around the state if they want.
# [17:41] <caitp> well sure
# [17:42] <flyrock> lol !
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# [18:02] <jgraham> More to the point, we don't know why these people are chasing flyrock around. Maybe it's to exact vengance for crimes against spec editing.
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# [18:47] <annevk> caitp: I'm clearly not a successful spec editor
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# [18:48] <Domenic> Did you know? Browsers are supposed to implement a JSON-LD API. http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld-api/#the-application-programming-interface
# [18:48] <Domenic> Wonder how that got to REC
# [18:49] <annevk> Domenic: you're being sarcastic right?
# [18:49] <Domenic> indeeeed
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# [18:49] <annevk> It's been a long day
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# [18:50] <annevk> As I said to someone else earlier, it's nice how now it's renamed from RDF to LinkedData or JSON-LD, it still doesn't make much sense
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# [18:56] <jamesr___> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/test-suite/reports/cr-20131022.html#test-subjects
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# [18:57] <jamesr___> two of the "interoperable implementations" are the same javascript library running in a browser and running in node.js
# [18:57] <annevk> Is it interoperable because the browsers are different?
# [18:58] <jamesr___> afaik running in a browser is 1 and running in node.js is 2
# [18:58] <jamesr___> unclear if running in a different browser would count as 3
# [18:59] <annevk> That's some creative accounting right there
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# [18:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: ^^
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# [19:06] <annevk> Domenic: shall I open an issue for an OpaqueStreamReader class of sorts?
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# [19:23] <annevk> Domenic: see WHATWG email instead
# [19:23] <annevk> flyrock: https://annevankesteren.nl/2014/03/contributing-to-standards has some pointers
# [19:28] <flyrock> thanks annevk :)
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# [19:51] <TabAtkins> That... implementation counting is 100% wrong. Multiple implementations *by the same person* dont' even count as separate; running the *same code* in two places absolutely doesn't.
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# [19:51] <TabAtkins> I know, this isn't anything surprising, but this sort of gaming just disappoints me.
# [19:52] <TabAtkins> It's like, yeah, I know nobody likes what y'all are doing, but at least have some self-respect. This is sad.
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# [19:53] <jamesr___> TabAtkins: another one of the impls is a python lib by the same author as the "2" js ones
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, doesn't count.
# [19:54] <TabAtkins> We didn't let Rik's multiple implementations in several browsers count for one of the Adobe-driven CSS specs.
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# [20:14] <TabAtkins> What kind of monster puts the sentence-ending period *inside of* the <a> element wrapping the last word in the sentence?
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# [20:19] <TabAtkins> The same kind of monster that eschews the Oxford Comma, that's who.
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# [20:52] <TabAtkins> The perils of hand-editting a generated file: ToC and headings drift apart. In https://w3c.github.io/FileAPI/TR.html, "Blob Parameters" (8.3.4.7) is missing from the ToC, the following "Determining Encoding" (8.4) is listed as an h3 but styled as an h4, and the following "Events" section is either 8.5 or 8.5.10, depending on whether you believe the heading
# [20:52] <TabAtkins> or the ToC.
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# [21:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: seems legit
# [21:45] <MikeSmith> will find out who Director'ed that
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# [21:54] <hober> but who Directors the Director?
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# [21:57] <annevk> Domenic: binary stream seems like a weird term to use, byte stream seems more accurate
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# [21:57] <Domenic> annevk: that is what I use?
# [21:58] <annevk> Domenic: e.g. https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#model mentions binary; my suggestion in the issue was to change that
# [21:58] <Domenic> ah i see
# [21:59] <Domenic> busy fixing my build process right now... i uncovered some very subtle bug in jsdom and the "proper" way to fix it led me to fixing our xml support... (ecmarkup depends on jsdom)
# [21:59] <annevk> heh, good luck
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# [22:12] <wanderview> Domenic: when does (or did) fetch body streams hit chrome release?
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# [22:19] <Domenic> wanderview: Chrome 43, so since 42 just released ~6 weeks
# [22:19] <wanderview> Domenic: ok, thanks... trying to get an idea how soon I need to do this system benchmark beyond ASAP
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# [23:58] <Domenic> TabAtkins: how do I fix my HTML reference? When I do `Link Defaults: html5 (dfn) structured clone` it gives the wrong spec and when I say `html` instead it gives `No 'dfn' refs found for 'structured clones' with spec 'html'`
# Session Close: Fri Apr 17 00:00:00 2015

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