/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-04-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 23 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Any chance you can search for any pages with "@media not" or "media='not", and give me the rest of the MQ?
  17. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Seeking forward to the { or newline in the first case, and to the matching quote in the other.
  18. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Wanna do some analysis on whether using Kleene's 3-value truth algebra is backwards compatible, or if we have to do something slightly different.
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  22. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> (In particular, the question is whether "false AND unknown" should evaluate to false or unknown. Naively preserving backwards compat demands "unknown", but if the breakage would be minimal or non-existent, evaluating to "false" has more consistent semantics.)
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  31. # [00:57] <dglazkov> annevk: what are your thoughts on https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/wiki/Proposal-for-changes-to-manage-Shadow-DOM-content-distribution?
  32. # [00:58] <dglazkov> I posted mine here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015AprJun/0208.html
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  40. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> While I'm not strongly opposed to a slot-name-based distribution, it's extra ugly work. Requiring people to use an additional attribute/value combo for the declarative syntax, and requiring use of the imperative form to get anything better, just means the declarative form is a ghetto, and for no good reason.
  41. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Super simple things, like "put an <h1> into your <x-slide>" become much more annoying. :/
  42. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> I mean, limiting the selectors that can be used is easy-peasy.
  43. # [01:15] <dglazkov> <x-side><h1>should work just fine</h1></x-side>, right?
  44. # [01:16] <dglazkov> oh, you mean the <details><summary> use case.
  45. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: Yeah, the <details> thing is actually pretty common. I wanna be able to write <x-slide><h1>A topic</h1><p>stuff about the topic<p>more stuff</x-slide>
  46. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> And if I have to write <x-slide><h1 content-slot="heading">A topic</h1><p>stuff about the topic<p>more stuff</x-slide> it's like, really? Really??
  47. # [01:19] <dglazkov> I think we should start a page documenting where the flexibility is lost on the wiki
  48. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Just screenshot the email thread. ^_^
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  51. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> This sort of syntax just screams "this is bolted-on, and we don't care that it's obvious".
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  53. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> But also, reprojection being essentially impossible without explicit coordination sinks this right away imo.
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  74. # [02:18] <rniwa> Domenic: I don't understand your comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28544 at all
  75. # [02:18] <rniwa> Domenic: import { myClass } from 'mymodule';
  76. # [02:18] <rniwa> var a = new myClass;
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  78. # [02:18] <rniwa> Domenic: wouldn't result in a ReferenceError of any sort
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  80. # [02:20] <caitp-> my understanding is that module imports are resolved before evaluation starts
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  82. # [02:20] <caitp-> too lazy to confirm
  83. # [02:20] <caitp-> tdz of some sort i'm sure, but still
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  85. # [02:24] <rniwa> caitp-: Right.
  86. # [02:25] <rniwa> caitp-: the fact it blows up in the case of a circular dependency is an orthogonal issue
  87. # [02:25] <caitp-> iirc there's language to solve that, too
  88. # [02:26] <caitp-> at the very least direct circular imports are ignored
  89. # [02:27] <caitp-> oh, s/ignored/throws a syntax error
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  91. # [02:30] <rniwa> caitp-: I think we did solve that issue by throwing ReferenceError
  92. # [02:30] <caitp-> yes, ResolveExport returns null, and in response all callers throw a SyntaxError
  93. # [02:30] <caitp-> so, maybe not quite as nice
  94. # [02:34] <rniwa> caitp-: well, circular dependency usually implies a programming error though
  95. # [02:34] <rniwa> so that might be okay
  96. # [02:34] <rniwa> although there are legitimate use cases...
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  98. # [02:39] <caitp-> in any case it's not a reference error or type error to touch an import "before it's loaded", because you can't (with the exception of dynamic module imports)
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  215. # [08:10] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: can't omit </p> there, as it happens
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  243. # [09:02] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: help http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bikeshed/cssom-view/
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  245. # [09:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: also when i remove open() from Ignored Terms i get this:
  246. # [09:04] <zcorpan> WARNING: Multiple possible 'idl' refs for 'open()'.
  247. # [09:04] <zcorpan> Arbitrarily chose the one in html.
  248. # [09:04] <zcorpan> If this is wrong, insert one of the following lines into a <pre class=link-defaults> block:
  249. # [09:04] <zcorpan> spec:html; type:method; for:Window; text:open()
  250. # [09:04] <zcorpan> spec:html; type:method; for:Window; text:open()
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  344. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> /win/win 2
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  351. # [14:55] <ondras> win-win!
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  421. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Specs that aren't Bikeshedded sometimes define things twice, and I don't know how to avoid that. That's why it was in Ignored Terms. ^_^
  422. # [18:13] <darobin> mmmmm
  423. # [18:13] <darobin> maybe this should be in the pubrules validator
  424. # [18:13] <darobin> don't define thing twice
  425. # [18:13] <darobin> the tool could do a lot more linting
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  427. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> darobin: That would be nice! In this case, though, it's HTML, which I don't think is really PubRules checked. ^_^
  428. # [18:15] * TabAtkins wonders if he should just make Bikeshed ignore it when it ends up with two identical definitions, and just silently choose one for you.
  429. # [18:15] <darobin> TabAtkins: well, if it's a part that is kept on the W3C side it gets pubrules checked every time it changes :)
  430. # [18:15] <darobin> and we could add support for linting WHATWG specs to specberus
  431. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> spec:html refers to WHATWG, yeah.
  432. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I'll fix the stacktrace, though.
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  437. # [18:28] <annevk> Apple's feedback reads pretty well to me
  438. # [18:28] <annevk> smaug____: you read it?
  439. # [18:31] <smaug____> annevk: well...
  440. # [18:32] <smaug____> it feels odd that you effectively say from outside the component where your child nodes should be distributed
  441. # [18:32] <smaug____> that hasn't been the idea with XBL and such
  442. # [18:33] <smaug____> but perhaps the slots + imperative API is enough
  443. # [18:33] <annevk> oh that bit, yeah, I'm not a 100% sold on slots yet, though I kind of like it
  444. # [18:33] <annevk> seems somewhat nice to have an opinionated public API contract
  445. # [18:40] <Domenic> It worries me that it means shadow DOM isn't useful for explaining <details> or <select> or similar.
  446. # [18:43] <smaug____> shadow DOM (or shadow + custom) isn't enough to explain various behaviors of native elements
  447. # [18:43] <smaug____> but the slots approach does seem to take us even farther(sp?) away
  448. # [18:44] <smaug____> long ago when there was xforms (yes yes, I know) addon for Firefox, XBL, which has roughly the same capabilities as shadow dom + custom, wasn't enough to implement the new elements.
  449. # [18:45] <smaug____> XTF + XBL was enough
  450. # [18:45] <smaug____> XBL was used mainly as a presentation layer, and XTF was the lower level thing
  451. # [18:45] <smaug____> but XTF was so low level, that only privileged scripts could use it to implement new stuff
  452. # [18:48] <Domenic> For sure, it isn't enough, it's part of the puzzle. Or at least it would be, if we didn't have this slots thing.
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  514. # [20:45] <hober> MikeSmith dglazkov: dumb github question. How do I get write access to the w3c/webcomponents.wiki repo (i'm trying to add a wiki page)
  515. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> hober: I have to add you
  516. # [20:45] <hober> MikeSmith dglazkov: normally i'd send a pull request but github doesn't do pull requests for gh wikis
  517. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> because of asshatted github ACLs setup
  518. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
  519. # [20:46] <hober> MikeSmith: ahh ok
  520. # [20:46] <hober> MikeSmith: thanks
  521. # [20:47] <trevnorris> Domenic: would there be some es6 class magic that would allow an inherited static method change a property on the inherited class? probably doesn't make sense. i'll write up some code.
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  524. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> hober: you should be good to go now
  525. # [20:48] <hober> awesome, it worked. thanks!
  526. # [20:49] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: can I be added to so I can edit what hober just uploaded?
  527. # [20:49] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I have a github account as “othermaciej”
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  531. # [20:52] <trevnorris> Domenic: here's using both 5 and 6. https://gist.github.com/trevnorris/e3144f66dfa0aac6ff27
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  534. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: hai, just added you
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  537. # [20:56] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: thanks
  538. # [20:58] <trevnorris> Domenic: actually, can es6 classes have static members that aren't methods?
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  545. # [21:14] <Domenic> trevnorris: sure, MyClass.x = "whatever" (or use static get/static set for accessors)
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  547. # [21:14] <trevnorris> Domenic: though that really gimps "use strong" for v8.
  548. # [21:15] <Domenic> Yes well if you wanna program in JS program in JS if you wanna program in a V8 dialect program in that
  549. # [21:15] <Domenic> trevnorris: the two things in your gist look equivalent
  550. # [21:16] <trevnorris> Domenic: I just updated the es6 example with a more full implementation to show the required code duplication.
  551. # [21:16] <Domenic> Note that `this` inside static methods is the class itself
  552. # [21:16] <trevnorris> Domenic: even if it's inherited?
  553. # [21:17] <trevnorris> FREAK YES!
  554. # [21:17] <Domenic> None of the stuff you just added to that gist is necessary
  555. # [21:17] <trevnorris> awesome. so I can use this._onreadable inside the static method and the inheritance will work.
  556. # [21:18] <Domenic> Yep yep. ES6 classes do class-side inheritance
  557. # [21:18] <trevnorris> okay. i'm actually a little excited for es6 class syntax (still hate the class keyword since it's technically prototype, but whatever)
  558. # [21:20] <trevnorris> sweet, sweet. extends even makes sure to extend the static stuff after the fact. alright. this is legitimately good sugar. :)
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  562. # [21:20] <Domenic> In ES5 terms, Derived.__proto__ = Base in addition to Derived.prototype.__proto__ = Base.prototype
  563. # [21:21] <Domenic> Haha yay :)
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  566. # [21:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: do you have thoughts on how Reviewable compares with Critic?
  567. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Domenic: __proto__ isn't an ES5 term! *hides*
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  570. # [21:30] <trevnorris> Domenic: hm. was getting ahead of myself and didn't think through the implementation impact. e.g. https://gist.github.com/trevnorris/e3144f66dfa0aac6ff27#file-inheritence-stuff-es6-js
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  572. # [21:31] <trevnorris> Domenic: how do I get the _onreadable value from the specific class calling the constructor in Readable?
  573. # [21:32] <trevnorris> because it is changing the value on the inherited class properly, but not sure how to get it from the Readable constructor().
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  576. # [21:51] <trevnorris> Domenic: nm. got it figured out. didn't know you could reference this.constructor.
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  631. # [23:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: They managed to make the UI even more confusing
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  633. # [23:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: impressive.
  634. # [23:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: sounds like it integrates better with GH, though
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  640. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> does anybody ever try to run blame on the HTML spec
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  642. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> nm
  643. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> was just taking a lot longer than I remembered it taking
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  654. # [23:49] <trevnorris> Domenic: is there a spec somewhere for "new.target" within a class constructor?
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  662. # Session Close: Fri Apr 24 00:00:00 2015

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