/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 02 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/001099.html
  6. # [00:03] <caitp-> well they sound happy
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  9. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> heh
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  86. # [03:35] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: You need to use getPropertyValue()
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  94. # [03:41] <TabAtkins> annevk: Theoretically, a bikeshed update will make the HTML links go to multipage now.
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  171. # [10:29] <annevk_> TabAtkins: when "bikeshed update" says it's downloading data, is that over HTTPS?
  172. # [10:29] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  173. # [10:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: it still turns "toString()" into "toString"
  174. # [10:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: so it mangles the content, that would be part of the undesired magic
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  179. # [10:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: oh and Document linking to HTML is somewhat problematic
  180. # [10:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: happy to help out getting that resolved if you have any ideas
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  212. # [13:52] <roc> too bad Lauren Weinstein didn't read the actual proposal, which says nothing about making sites inaccessible
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  218. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> roc: too bad the people involved haven't done a much better job of making it more clear what the actual plans are
  219. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> Lauren is far from the only person who's made the mistake of reading more into than what's actually there
  220. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> given the zealotry that comes across in of a lot of rhetoric being tossed around, it shouldn't be a surprise
  221. # [14:24] <roc> It's totally clear in the first message of the dev-platform thread, which links to this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IGYl_rxnqEvzmdAP9AJQYY2i2Uy_sW-cg9QI9ICe-ww/edit?usp=sharing
  222. # [14:25] <roc> and it's clear in the official blog post: https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/04/30/deprecating-non-secure-http/
  223. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> roc: so why do you think many people have reacted so strongly to the announcements the way they have?
  224. # [14:27] <roc> because people are sinners. Why do *you* think?
  225. # [14:28] <roc> I mean, I'm as guilty as anyone of diving into a controversy without checking the original sources, but whoever does it, that's on them.
  226. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> I see. So the people responsible for getting the message out about this properly are faultless
  227. # [14:30] <roc> In this particular issue, yeah, pretty much.
  228. # [14:30] <roc> I don't see how they could have made it more clear that we're not going to start blocking HTTP sites.
  229. # [14:31] <roc> At some point, someone --- Lauren, or someone he read --- just made that up. And that's not Richard Barnes' fault.
  230. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> here's an idea: they could have written once sentence at the top of the blog post and the actual proposal: "We are not going to start blocking HTTP sites."
  231. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> communicating with other people about things like this requires make an effort to understand how people might (mis)interpret your message
  232. # [14:35] <roc> I've tried writing blog posts where you explicitly deny every misconception you think someone's going to make
  233. # [14:36] <roc> it makes the message unintelligible and people ignore your denials
  234. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> well in this case a laundry list of possible misconceptions isn't needed
  235. # [14:37] <roc> it's easy to say that in hindsight
  236. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> sure
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  238. # [14:38] <roc> even so, there are more misconceptions than that one in play
  239. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> but I really do think that here, one prominent sentence would have helped immensely
  240. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> true, agree
  241. # [14:38] <roc> frankly, I doubt Lauren read the source documents, so I don't think your sentence would have had any effect.
  242. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> maybe you're right, I dunno
  243. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> and to be clear I say all this as somebody who agrees completely with the actual plans
  244. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> I just think the way this was handled has damaged the ability for those plans to move forward, rather than easing them
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  248. # [14:42] <roc> actually I think it's been good. There's been a lot of support, and a lot of objections have been voiced and ignorance corrected. Sure, haters gonna hate, but I think a lot of people learned things like "there really isn't any traffic that doesn't need to be encrypted"
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  250. # [14:44] <roc> I'm a bit grumpy tonight, so maybe I'll look back on the logs and regret this conversation tomorrow :-)
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  252. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> roc: no, I appreciate you calling it out
  253. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> I'm probably being too critical
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  269. # [15:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think sometimes denying something makes people assume that it's actualy going to be true. I mean we're all used to politicians or whatever categorically denying things that subsequently turn out to be the case. So I think putting in that kind of upfront denial just draws attention to whatever the thing is and makes people assume that it actually is something you're considering
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  273. # [15:57] <TabAtkins> annevk: Turning "toString()" into "toString" isn't expected. That's not magic, it's a bug. ^_^
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  275. # [15:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: For Document, you need to do a slightly clumsy workaround for that fact that Bikeshed knows about a Document definition already. Put `force="Document"` on the <pre class=idl>, and it should work.
  276. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> I should auto-detect that you're doing a definition there, and at least log a warning (saying that you should either be doing `force`, or writing a partial interface). I'll log that as an issue for improvement, thanks!
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  282. # [16:15] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: I'd personally put a lot of fault on the people assuming Firefox will start blocking http, because *that's a ridiculously stupid idea and they should be ashamed for assuming it*. We're not talking about politics here; the people involved usually don't announce broad initiatives that are so wrong-headed a five-year-old could have understood what
  283. # [16:15] <TabAtkins> was wrong.
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  285. # [16:17] <TabAtkins> annevk: Bikeshed was mostly downloading over https. There were two http urls (both for biblio data), but I just updated them to be https as well.
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  355. # [20:07] <gsnedders> hmm, seems like html5lib broke relative URLs in the sanitizer… has me wondering if we ever should've let relative URLs through the sanitizer
  356. # [20:07] <gsnedders> I guess there's not really any risk
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  364. # [20:26] * Joins: scrollback (scrollback@gateway/web/scrollback.io/x-upjiwiasltphrfoq)
  365. # [20:33] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@85-76-108-90-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  366. # [20:34] * Quits: jacaballero (~jacaballe@190.92.15.29) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  367. # [20:34] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  368. # [20:39] * Quits: jyasskin (~jyasskin@173-228-80-34.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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  421. # [23:49] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  422. # [23:50] * Quits: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  423. # [23:51] * Quits: jyasskin (~jyasskin@173-228-80-34.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  424. # Session Close: Sun May 03 00:00:00 2015

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