/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-05-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 05 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  159. # [07:44] <annevk> Mark: The IETF is generally enthusiastic about Opportunistic Security
  160. # [07:44] <annevk> Mark: The W3C is much less excited about Opportunistic Security
  161. # [07:44] * annevk is reading https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2015/04-sfo/04-21-minutes.md
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  173. # [08:07] * annevk gets to the part where slightlyoff is upset with sortable tables
  174. # [08:08] * annevk wouldn't really consider that representative of anything
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  199. # [08:45] <annevk> "If your website is a bank, and you see a wildcard CORS header, it's probably really bad."
  200. # [08:45] <annevk> not true :-(
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  203. # [08:50] <smaug____> is w3.org down
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  205. # [08:54] <annevk> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/w3.org
  206. # [08:54] <annevk> I can't access it either though
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  213. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> sorry we having haproxy problems I think
  214. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> it may be while
  215. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> oh maybe it's back already now
  216. # [09:13] <annevk> Domenic: where was that new URL implementation located again?
  217. # [09:13] * annevk finds https://www.npmjs.com/package/url-standard and https://www.npmjs.com/package/urlsearchparams but they are different
  218. # [09:14] <annevk> https://www.npmjs.com/search?q=whatwg is pretty cool
  219. # [09:14] <annevk> Domenic: https://github.com/cofounders/urlutils ?
  220. # [09:15] <annevk> hmm that is a year old
  221. # [09:15] <annevk> Sebmaster: ?
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  224. # [09:21] <annevk> ah
  225. # [09:21] <annevk> https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url
  226. # [09:22] <annevk> Whenever I search for jsdom I end up at https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom so I didn't realize it was also an organization
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  245. # [09:54] <Domenic> yeah maybe we should move it
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  252. # [10:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: when I regen URL it now points to #utf_8-decoder rather than #utf-8-decoder due to a change in linking practices?
  253. # [10:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm not sure how I can prevent that from happening
  254. # [10:14] <annevk> Whoever wants underscores?!
  255. # [10:14] <annevk> I found a workaround, but this makes things way more verbose...
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  264. # [10:43] <Domenic> annevk_: explain no longer defaulting to about:blank?
  265. # [10:43] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  266. # [10:43] <annevk> Domenic: apparently #foo against about:blank will at some point yield about:blank#foo
  267. # [10:43] <annevk> Domenic: or might already in UAs
  268. # [10:44] <Domenic> sure. Why is that a problem?
  269. # [10:44] <annevk> Domenic: because the intention was that the default was equivalent to no base URL
  270. # [10:44] <Domenic> this is about new URL() only, or...?
  271. # [10:44] <annevk> yes
  272. # [10:44] <Domenic> ah ok
  273. # [10:44] <annevk> yeah other specs still need to use about:blank
  274. # [10:44] <annevk> e.g. new Document()
  275. # [10:45] <Domenic> so given an arbitrary string with no context, "parse this as a URL" i.e. "parse this as an absolute URL" should still be done relative to about:blank
  276. # [10:45] <Domenic> yeah
  277. # [10:45] <Domenic> document.URL seems fine for new URL I guess
  278. # [10:46] <Domenic> "#foo" should only work if "../../foo.html" works IMO
  279. # [10:46] <annevk> I want new URL to be able to fail on non-absolute URLs
  280. # [10:46] <annevk> right
  281. # [10:46] <Domenic> Maybe new URL() accepts relative and URL.absolute() fails on relative
  282. # [10:47] <Domenic> .fromAbsolute? I dunno.
  283. # [10:47] <annevk> it seems new URL() should support all forms and .statics should support subsets
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  285. # [10:48] <annevk> a null base URL is more low-level
  286. # [10:48] <Domenic> I think that agrees with what I said :)
  287. # [10:48] <annevk> it might :-)
  288. # [10:52] <annevk> Domenic: do we still use tenXer?
  289. # [10:52] <annevk> Domenic: for whatwg/url it is triggering failures
  290. # [10:52] <Domenic> annevk: no :( it's some kind of viral thing that spread to all my repos, I have since revoked it
  291. # [10:52] <annevk> Okay, deleted
  292. # [10:55] <annevk> <script defer>, that means wait for DOMContentLoaded, right?
  293. # [11:01] <Domenic> Also something about ordering
  294. # [11:01] <Domenic> I kind of was under the impression <script defer async> was optimal but I dunno it's a mess out there
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  296. # [11:03] <annevk> Yeah I was wondering whether I could move the dfn.js scripts to be earlier in the source if I added defer
  297. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> defer async just means "async", but "defer" if that isn't supported
  298. # [11:03] <annevk> (dfn.js requires the DOM to be complete-ish)
  299. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> defer would work for that
  300. # [11:03] <gsnedders> @defer means after DOMContentLoaded you execute script elements in document order
  301. # [11:04] <gsnedders> except in IE<10 when it doesn't have the ordering semantic
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  304. # [11:06] <Domenic> sounds like defer async has additional semantics on top of just async then?
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  306. # [11:07] <gsnedders> I can't remember how they combine
  307. # [11:08] <gsnedders> Because they have contradictory semantics then
  308. # [11:08] <gsnedders> Also I'm on a slow café wifi connection that doesn't help loading the spec
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  310. # [11:10] <gsnedders> Domenic: "async defer" is equiv. to "async"
  311. # [11:10] <gsnedders> as Ms2ger said
  312. # [11:10] <Domenic> I see
  313. # [11:10] <Domenic> So it just ignores the defer part of the semantics
  314. # [11:11] <annevk> http://www.levelofindirection.com/journal/2015/5/1/naming-is-hard-or-is-it.html the "Why?" section here has an interesting insight on naming that I hadn't considered
  315. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> Except in browsers that don't support async
  316. # [11:11] <Domenic> Yeah but who cares about those while writing specs
  317. # [11:11] <annevk> Shorter names is about readability, not typing speed
  318. # [11:12] <Domenic> http://www.growingwiththeweb.com/2014/02/async-vs-defer-attributes.html
  319. # [11:12] <Domenic> seems like maybe we should be using <script defer> instead of <script async> for specs
  320. # [11:12] <gsnedders> I'm never entirely sure about async from a perf view; they delay the HTML being parser and then surely have a bigger effect on when the complete document is rendered first
  321. # [11:13] <Domenic> yeah blocking the parser seems like a sin
  322. # [11:13] <annevk> Yeah, perhaps <script> at top, and use defer="" since complete document/render is more important than the script
  323. # [11:13] <annevk> And for the common scripts we don't care about ordering...
  324. # [11:14] <annevk> So IE9 is not really a concern either way
  325. # [11:15] <gsnedders> what we really want is something which delays execution until DOMContentLoaded but doesn't care about ordering, surely?
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  328. # [11:16] <annevk> Well, I guess we want better dependency management in general
  329. # [11:16] <annevk> See Hixie's efforts in that area
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  335. # [11:55] <greves> how do i put query params in fetch(), and why is it not in the docs anywhere?
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  338. # [12:01] <annevk> greves: which docs?
  339. # [12:01] <annevk> greves: and if you want to manipulate the URL, just manipulate the URL?
  340. # [12:01] <greves> https://github.com/whatwg/fetch
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  342. # [12:02] <greves> annevk, yeah but its quite messy doing all of the ?a=foo&b=bar stuff on my urls manually... would be much nicer to do {a: foo, b: bar} and pass that in some how
  343. # [12:02] <annevk> greves: use https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#urlsearchparams
  344. # [12:03] <greves> how do i pass that into my call to fetch then?
  345. # [12:04] <greves> fetch(url, {headers: headers, body: body})
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  357. # [12:38] <Domenic> url.toString()
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  400. # [14:11] <annevk> No need to invoke toString() explicitly...
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  403. # [14:11] <annevk> It's surprising how much <form> has confused the thinking about query params
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  412. # [14:38] <Sebmaster> annevk_: why'd you need the repo?
  413. # [14:39] <Sebmaster> *why did
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  416. # [14:42] <annevk_> Sebmaster: wanted to point to it from an email to whatwg@whatwg.org
  417. # [14:42] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  418. # [14:42] <annevk> Sebmaster: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2015May/0007.html
  419. # [14:42] <annevk> zcorpan: header of https://html-differences.whatwg.org/ could do with some spring cleaning
  420. # [14:42] <Sebmaster> oh, i see, thanks
  421. # [14:44] <Sebmaster> annevk: i didnt mind the state based implementation too much, although i've no idea how a function based one would look, so i guess i cant really compare them
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  425. # [14:45] <annevk> Sebmaster: https://github.com/servo/rust-url/blob/master/src/parser.rs#L94 and onwards, basically, but that's in Rust, not JavaScript
  426. # [14:48] <Sebmaster> annevk: ah, i was thinking that'd be much better at first because due to JITs not optimizing big functions
  427. # [14:48] <Sebmaster> I had a big switch statement in the beginning like here: https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/blob/a7cfb037e36c6b07f884b25d59737d3d9b05986e/lib/url.js
  428. # [14:48] <Sebmaster> but with the class which saves the state and methods for each state it's not a big deal now I think
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  431. # [14:51] <annevk> Sebmaster: see also https://github.com/annevk/url/ for such an implementation (though out of date)
  432. # [14:52] <Sebmaster> yeah i got a few tips where i missed stuff from the spec from there :p
  433. # [14:52] <annevk> Sebmaster: anyway, I don't have time for big rewrites at the moment
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  449. # [15:22] <annevk> jgraham: it seems https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4825 is already being acted on by wanderview and jsbell?
  450. # [15:23] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah. If you feel happy r-ing the fixup there then that saves a few hours of waiting for jsbell to wake up
  451. # [15:26] <annevk> jgraham: done
  452. # [15:27] <jgraham> annevk: Thanks!
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  457. # [15:38] <wanderview> annevk: thanks
  458. # [15:38] <wanderview> jgraham: what is w3c-test-mirror?
  459. # [15:39] <jgraham> wanderview: It gets the thing mirrored on w3c-test.org
  460. # [15:39] <jgraham> https://w3c-test.org/submissions/1782/service-workers/cache-storage/window/cache-put.https.html
  461. # [15:39] <jgraham> Since you weren't 100% sure it worked I thought I should check
  462. # [15:39] <jgraham> (only project members can request mirroring, for obvious reasons)
  463. # [15:39] <wanderview> nice! looks like it passed
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  466. # [15:40] <jgraham> I just started an update into the gecko tree
  467. # [15:40] <Ms2ger> Oh, does the mirroring work again?
  468. # [15:40] <wanderview> jgraham: ok... I'm still trying to fix the intermittents in the wpt tests on windows
  469. # [15:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Everything works again!
  470. # [15:41] <jgraham> (perhaps)
  471. # [15:42] <wanderview> jgraham: did you merge that last PR? I didn't get email about it
  472. # [15:42] <wanderview> looks like it still needs to be merged
  473. # [15:44] <jgraham> Wow, that's quite some fail
  474. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> Anyone want to check what IE does on https://w3c-test.org/submissions/1763/workers/baseurl/alpha/?
  475. # [15:47] <wanderview> Ms2ger: gives a directory listing
  476. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  477. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> There's four tests in there
  478. # [15:48] <wanderview> importScripts: TypeError: Unable to get property 'split' of undefined or null reference
  479. # [15:48] <wanderview> shared worker: TypeError: Unable to get property 'split' of undefined or null reference
  480. # [15:48] * Ms2ger blinks
  481. # [15:48] <wanderview> they all hit that error
  482. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> Oh, gah
  483. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> Have we not merged IE's stack PR?
  484. # [15:49] <wanderview> Ms2ger: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/8832473
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  488. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> wanderview, want to try again?
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  491. # [15:54] <wanderview> importScripts: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/8832475
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  493. # [15:54] <wanderview> shared worker: assert_unreached: Got error event Reached unreachable code
  494. # [15:54] <wanderview> base url in worker got the same error as importScripts
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  496. # [15:55] <wanderview> xhr got slight variant on that error: assert_equals: expected "gamma\n" but got "beta\n"
  497. # [15:55] <wanderview> Ms2ger: ^^^
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  499. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> Dammit
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  508. # [16:20] <wanderview> jgraham: were you able to fix the path encoding issue I ran into on windows? just wondering since you're running a gecko update
  509. # [16:25] <jgraham> wanderview: Uh, yes, I have a patch for that somewhere :)
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  511. # [16:28] <annevk> caitp-: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25684
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  515. # [16:40] <annevk> caitp-: interesting, so Chrome just does it for POST/PUT/HEAD
  516. # [16:40] <annevk> caitp-: that seems rather arbitrary
  517. # [16:41] <caitp> it is, but the reasoning makes sense
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  551. # [18:02] <annevk> caitp: so I thought that was going to be an easy fix, but turns out I haven't really sorted the whole uploading part yet
  552. # [18:03] <annevk> caitp: and streams are going to change this too...
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  564. # [18:21] <annevk> caitp: shit, forgot to add you to the ack section, how would you like to appear there?
  565. # [18:22] * annevk finds name in /whois
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  571. # [18:33] <caitp-> for fetch? sure
  572. # [18:34] <annevk> caitp-: https://t.co/mXRm2wbp8T
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  575. # [18:48] <annevk> everyone, we're now maintaining https://resources.whatwg.org/biblio.json
  576. # [18:48] <annevk> Hixie: you might want to use that to generate spec.whatwg.org from at some point, we could add summaries and such
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  578. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> Håkon?
  579. # [18:55] <annevk> hmm, need to force utf-8
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  581. # [18:57] <annevk> AddDefaultCharset failed bah
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  584. # [19:01] <annevk> fixed
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  588. # [19:06] <annevk> I also added DOMPARSING to the list
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  608. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> annevk_: You can manually set your id, and Bikeshed won't autogen one. It intentionally downcases a hyphen into an underscore, so you don't get "duplicate ID" warnings when you define two terms that are identical save for their hyphenation. (It came up in one of mikewest's specs.)
  609. # [19:30] <annevk_> TabAtkins: it regressed a bunch of my stuff
  610. # [19:30] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  611. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> What changed, and what should it have been?
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  613. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> Also: what is biblio.json for? Can you just put those in SpecRef? It's silly, if those are useful references, for them to be used only by one group, rather than shared by everyone using a preprocessor.
  614. # [19:31] <annevk> TabAtkins: tobie will import them automatically
  615. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Ah, ok.
  616. # [19:32] <annevk> TabAtkins: it's WHATWG's version of what the W3C publishes as RDF...
  617. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Cool.
  618. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Why not microdata?
  619. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Don't troll. ^_^
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  621. # [19:32] <annevk> TabAtkins: in URL a bunch of utf-8 links were made utf_8
  622. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's due to what I indicated above.
  623. # [19:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: I solved it by adding explicit url entries next to text, but it was cumbersome
  624. # [19:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: and unless I'm mistaken in some specifications the IDs regressed
  625. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> Wait, I don't understand what you mean by "adding explicit url entries next to text".
  626. # [19:33] <annevk> I might be wrong about that part
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  629. # [19:34] <annevk> TabAtkins: https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/c2980ee398de9621b0c313e5cc522895227db24c#diff-03b21320f26423640f89c447968191e5L2921
  630. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> It's possible that Bikeshed ID-autogen is different from Anolis auto-gen, yes. That's why I did a big s/title=/id=/ in DOM, to keep the IDs stable.
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  632. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see. Yeah, Bikeshed uses its own ID-autogen rules to figure out the anchor, if you don't specify one yourself in the anchor data. Obviously, if a spec uses an ID that doesn't match Bikeshed's autogen rules, you'll have to specify the anchor yourself.
  633. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> (This can gradually be fixed by moving more specs into Shepherd's database, so you don't need to put them in an anchors block at all.)
  634. # [19:38] <annevk> Ah, I might have a look at Shepherd tomorrow
  635. # [19:38] <annevk> This whole anchor business is driving me nuts
  636. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah, partially because your Anolis specs all had the terrible title practice.
  637. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Excellent practice*
  638. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> So you're actively fighting Bikeshed right now.
  639. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: It was a hack around not having types attached to your definitions. ^_^
  640. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> annevk: You're currently in the same position as when Hixie was trying to learn Git, and trying desperately to just push a file to the repo. ^_^
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  650. # [19:56] <Domenic> The difference here being, breaking external links is bad?
  651. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> There's nothing wrong with links. Where you previously specified title="concept-foo", you switch to id="concept-foo" (and let Bikeshed detect the linking text itself, unless you actually do need to override it).
  652. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> This works for all Anolis-based <dfn>s.
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  654. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> Then you can, almost all of the time, delete title entirely from the links, and let the autolinking process hook things up automatically.
  655. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> I removed at least 99% of the title attributes in DOM's source.
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  661. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> The Anolis practice was just to use title='' on <dfn> as a replacement for id='', and then use title='' on <a> as a replacement for href='' (that would cross-link if the ID was in the Anolis db).
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  687. # [21:03] <hsivonen> annevk: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1130533#c14
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  689. # [21:04] <annevk> hsivonen: sigh
  690. # [21:04] <annevk> hsivonen: tomorrow
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  761. # [23:49] <esprehn> Hixie: why does script run when adding a node, but not when removing or changing the type...
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  763. # [23:50] <esprehn> that seems super weird, you have to change the type and then append a whitespace node to run your script
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  767. # Session Close: Wed May 06 00:00:00 2015

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