/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-05-22 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  76. # [02:33] <KiChjang> i don't understand step 7 of this spec https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-main-fetch
  77. # [02:34] <KiChjang> when it says run the remaining steps in parallel, does it mean each and every subsequent steps should be ran in a separate thread?
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  90. # [02:54] <KiChjang> anyone?
  91. # [02:56] <caitp-> it's hard to make heads or tails out of it, but it doesn't seem to mean what "in parallel" normally means
  92. # [02:57] <caitp-> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/infrastructure.html#in-parallel << pretty clearly is not saying "new thread for each subsequent step" though
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  94. # [03:00] <KiChjang> caitp-: yes that's why i was confused
  95. # [03:00] <caitp-> yes, probably worth filing a bug on the language used =p
  96. # [03:01] <KiChjang> what's the link for reporting bugs?
  97. # [03:02] <caitp-> you should see one if you fling the mouse around the spec, it pops up at the top or bottom
  98. # [03:03] <caitp-> oh, you don't even have to fling the cursor around, it's just floating at the bottom
  99. # [03:04] <caitp-> TabAtkins, just because we don't all have high S2N ratios doesn't mean we're trolls, I'm sure L2L or whatever his name is means well
  100. # [03:05] <KiChjang> ok i found it
  101. # [03:05] <roc> without judging L2L specifically --- sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice
  102. # [03:07] <caitp-> this is about asking for labeled block statements in ecmascript
  103. # [03:07] <caitp-> which is a perfectly fine thing to propose when talking about language design
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  105. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> caitp-: Nah, L2L's s/n ratio is basically zero. I flipped the bozo bit on him when he was doing stuff in www-style.
  106. # [03:18] <TabAtkins> You don't need a *high* ratio, just one distinguishable from gibberish.
  107. # [03:19] * TabAtkins is about to take off.
  108. # [03:19] <caitp-> if it was anyone else asking for goto in js would you still be talking about banning them
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  111. # [03:22] <caitp-> you don't have to explain why vms don't really want to have to implement it, or why most authors don't want to read or write it, but it's certainly not off the table for discussion on language design
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  142. # [05:07] <roc> my laptop just crashed
  143. # [05:07] <roc> oos
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  195. # [07:51] <ek_> hello
  196. # [07:52] <ek_> i have a question
  197. # [07:52] <ek_> In HTML5 spec it talks about stable state (in http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/single-page.html#await-a-stable-state). Can you explain what is a stable state and what does it exactly mean to await a stable state? I can not get the explanation in the spec. A simple example will be helpful
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  257. # [12:00] <hsivonen> hmm. annevk isn't here.
  258. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Does anyone have test cases for the Big5 decoder as defined in the Encoding Standard?
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  267. # [12:26] <SimonSapin> Hixie: What is a "globally unique identifier" in https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#origin ? Is it the same as "opaque identifier" ?
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  271. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  272. # [12:31] <SimonSapin> Shouldn’t that be defined in the spec?
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  275. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> I guess it should say "globally unique opaque identifier"
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  287. # [13:22] <philipj> hsivonen: It's possible that libicu would have test cases, jshin@chromium.org has done some work. I kind of doubt there's a from-scratch implementation based on the spec algorithm with test cases for its specific way of doing error handling, however.
  288. # [13:23] <hsivonen> philipj: thanks
  289. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, ^
  290. # [13:23] <hsivonen> philipj: I guess I'll do some manual math to at least get a couple of smoke tests written
  291. # [13:24] <hsivonen> but first, it turns out that I should replace my placeholder for a data table with an actual data table!
  292. # [13:24] <philipj> hsivonen: I really hope the new Big5 bits work out, I put quite a lot of research into some of the tiny details :)
  293. # [13:25] <philipj> but if it doesn't, we'll learn something from the failure at least
  294. # [13:25] <hsivonen> philipj: first thing I've learned: the lowest valid pointer in the index does not exist according to the OpenJDK notion of "Big5", so I probably shouldn't check my test cases against the JDK decoder
  295. # [13:26] <philipj> hsivonen: I think on average the Big5-HKSCS decoder from other implementations would be the closest to the spec
  296. # [13:27] <philipj> not sure if the low indexes are where Big5-HKSCS has its additions though
  297. # [13:28] <hsivonen> philipj: makes sense
  298. # [13:31] <hsivonen> does Python have syntactic sugar for a flavor of xrange that takes a pair of integers instead of two integer arguments?
  299. # [13:32] <hsivonen> I guess I'll just have to take the integers out of the pair myself :-(
  300. # [13:32] <hsivonen> except I already did so. doh
  301. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> range(*(2, 3))
  302. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
  303. # [13:34] <Ms2ger> Np
  304. # [13:35] * hsivonen writes Python to generate Java with the plan to then repurpose the Python program to generate C++
  305. # [13:35] <hsivonen> (because it makes no sense to write either directly)
  306. # [13:36] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, btw, Kannan was looking for someone to ask about nsScriptLoader; I believe he said he'd send you email
  307. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I've replied, but by then smaug had already replied more usefully
  308. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> Alright, great :)
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  310. # [13:43] <hsivonen> aargh. I keep doing things that collide with magic limits of either the Java class format or HotSpot
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  312. # [13:43] <hsivonen> this time, I tried to pack data in a string literal that's too long for the class file format
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  317. # [13:54] <SimonSapin> 16 bit length?
  318. # [14:00] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: yes
  319. # [14:00] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: counted on Java-modiefied UTF-8 bytes
  320. # [14:00] <hsivonen> apparently
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  338. # [14:16] <Ms2ger> "Postel tarpit (n.) - A system that has tried so hard to accept all possible input that any change becomes backwards-incompatible"
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  344. # [14:32] <hsivonen> hooray. my Big5 decoder isn't obviously broken
  345. # [14:32] <hsivonen> (unobvious test cases are harder, of course)
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  349. # [14:42] <hsivonen> oh, great. the error reporting design of the Java NIO decoding API is more broken than I thought
  350. # [14:43] <hsivonen> hmm...
  351. # [14:44] <hsivonen> and even more broken than I thought
  352. # [14:44] <hsivonen> quite sad really
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  355. # [14:50] <hsivonen> so assume you have a big5 input buffer that ends with 0xFE. then your next input buffer starts with 0x39.
  356. # [14:51] <hsivonen> I don't see how the Java API allows the decoder to signal the error to the caller such that the caller constructs U+FFFD followed by U+0039 and not just U+FFFD
  357. # [14:51] <hsivonen> boo
  358. # [14:52] <hsivonen> if there is a way, it sure is an undocumented abuse of the API
  359. # [14:52] <hsivonen> let's see if my caller-side code that I wrote years ago has an answer to how the JDK decoders deal
  360. # [14:53] <hsivonen> kids, don't try to design a streaming decoder API that allows the caller simultaneously to learn which bytes turn into U+FFFD and to continue decoding
  361. # [14:54] <hsivonen> seems to be too hard a problem even for profession drivers on closed road
  362. # [14:56] <hsivonen> OK, my old calling code, for which I blackbox reverse engineered how the API actually works, shows how the undocumented part works
  363. # [14:56] <hsivonen> you claim you need more input but you leave some input unconsumed
  364. # [14:56] <hsivonen> and the caller in, undocumentedly, supposed to copy the unconsumed bytes to the start of the next buffer
  365. # [14:57] <hsivonen> sucks to be the caller if the unconsumed bytes are more numerous that the size of your buffer
  366. # [14:57] <hsivonen> boo boo boo
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  369. # [15:02] <hsivonen> except how does what I just said work if 0xFE is the last byte before EOF?
  370. # [15:02] <hsivonen> aargh
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  377. # [15:19] <hsivonen> wow. this API design sucks
  378. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you writing this in Python?
  379. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> which API
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  381. # [15:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm writing the code generation in Python
  382. # [15:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the actual code is Java (C++ inthe future)
  383. # [15:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the bad API is java.nio.charset.CharsetDecoder
  384. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> aha
  385. # [15:28] <hsivonen> fun fact, if your input buffer is one byte long (edge case that's not prohibited!), the API doesn't work on the REPORT mode
  386. # [15:28] <hsivonen> i.e. if you try to feed the decoder one byte at a time
  387. # [15:29] <hsivonen> I guess if I had unlimited time, I could write a blog post about how even the API that's supposed to be right is wrong
  388. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: good thing it's not very widely used :-)
  389. # [15:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: few people need to use the API directly
  390. # [15:32] <hsivonen> from either side
  391. # [15:33] <hsivonen> anyway, if anyone wants to review: https://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/rev/b426b2e8f47a
  392. # [15:34] <hsivonen> oh, and I just noticed that implFlush is wrong
  393. # [15:36] <hsivonen> for those who are interested, search for "undocumented" in the above changeset
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  398. # [15:52] * MikeSmith looks now
  399. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> I think a good rule if you're reading hsivonen code and there's a commment that's any longer than two lines, it's most likely there to point out something that's broken
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  558. # Session Close: Sat May 23 00:00:00 2015

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