/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-06-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 10 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  142. # [06:47] <annevk> I wonder what made Twitter show the trailing slash in profile URLs
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  206. # [10:13] <heycam> MikeSmith, ping
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  213. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> heycam: here now
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  215. # [10:26] <heycam> MikeSmith, hi! can you add someone to the right github group so they can push changes to the SVG spec?
  216. # [10:26] <heycam> MikeSmith, github username is boggydigital
  217. # [10:26] <heycam> MikeSmith, I think the group name is "svgwg members" or something
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  219. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> cool username
  220. # [10:27] * MikeSmith checks now
  221. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> heycam: ok added just now
  222. # [10:28] <heycam> MikeSmith: cheers!
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  236. # [10:57] <annevk> Domenic: beverloo: abarth: belated happy b-day!
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  240. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> triplets
  241. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> speaking of abarth I wonder where or where has our abarth gone these days
  242. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> he seems to not be working on web-platform stuff as much these days
  243. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> at least not publicly
  244. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> I think the web platform misses him
  245. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> so I'm wondering what level of implementor interest does the current draft at http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/ have
  246. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> I see that Domenic filed an issue against it a couple weeks ago https://github.com/w3c/filesystem-api/issues/4
  247. # [11:10] * Joins: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjrflkvlwzdpnqcc)
  248. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> so I would assume that means it's still a relevant spec with some promise
  249. # [11:13] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
  250. # [11:14] <arunranga> Hi MikeSmith: I’d say parts of it are relevant including figuring out directory upload stuff.
  251. # [11:15] * arunranga is now known as arunranga-afk
  252. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> oh hey arunranga-afk !
  253. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> long time no see
  254. # [11:16] <arunranga-afk> oh hai MikeSmith :)
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  256. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> arunranga-afk: I've not seen so much recent discussion about it but then I'm not on script-coord any more so maybe there's been some there
  257. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> anyway I hope we can finally get this right and get some implementor momentum behind it
  258. # [11:18] * arunranga-afk hopes
  259. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> I'm glad you're still on it
  260. # [11:19] <arunranga-afk> MikeSmith, there’s been some public-script-coord discussion about having certain web platform types, including that old tin can, FileList, being converted to Array-types.
  261. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  262. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> I guess that's the right place now to have those discussions
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  266. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/ISOTC211/status/608567032506912768 "The @W3C process is open|: drafts are published, mailing list available to public, etc... Quite different from @opengeospatial and #ISOTC221"
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  269. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> in https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=501 Brent Fulgham talks about "people coming to JavaScript from languages like Swift" (in the context of saying those people find JS's "prototype-based syntax has been somewhat less accessible" to such people
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  273. # [11:58] <ondras> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGvdAOBUIAEQCUE.jpg:large
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  275. # [12:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: what is open|: supposed to mean?
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  277. # [12:02] <annevk> ondras: I don't get why he refers to the friend as crazy in the third panel after just saying he isn't
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  282. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe that tweeter meant to type an explanation point instead of that pipe?
  283. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> aren't they the same key on english keyboards
  284. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> oh I guess not
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  288. # [12:32] <ondras> annevk: yeah. well, I am not an author, just an twitter->irc proxy
  289. # [12:32] <ondras> *a
  290. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> inconsistency is funny
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  295. # [13:07] <annevk> philipj: if you want to experiment with lowercasing createAttribute() input, that'd be great...
  296. # [13:07] <annevk> philipj: but currently no browser does that so maybe that's a bridge too far?
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  299. # [13:15] <philipj> annevk: I don't know, would that be a big win if it would work out?
  300. # [13:15] <philipj> annevk: I'm not sure how to estimate the risk of it without extra bookkeeping
  301. # [13:15] <annevk> philipj: you can do atom comparison rather than string comparison
  302. # [13:16] <annevk> philipj: also, seems like Chrome does not always use case-insensitive matching... e.g. removeAttribute does something else?
  303. # [13:16] <annevk> philipj: per comments in the Gecko bug
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  307. # [13:17] <philipj> but when you're doing lookup, you're not traversing the attributes and comparing
  308. # [13:17] <philipj> sorry, wasn't finishing typing that
  309. # [13:18] <philipj> I'm just guessing that there's a hash map, and that hash map could be case insensitive without storing the strings themselves in a normalized case
  310. # [13:18] <philipj> maybe?
  311. # [13:18] <annevk> sure
  312. # [13:19] <annevk> I guess the more interesting thing is that not even case-insensitive will give us the same behavior, since Chrome does not share that algorithm across all methods
  313. # [13:19] <annevk> philipj: oh also, createAttribute("test:test") is different in Chrome/Safari vs Firefox/IE & DOM
  314. # [13:19] <philipj> annevk: and you're right, removeAttribute() does look different, it lowercases the value if it's an HTML Element and Document
  315. # [13:20] <philipj> annevk: and so does hasAttribute actually
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  317. # [13:20] <annevk> but not getAttribute()?
  318. # [13:20] <annevk> meh
  319. # [13:20] <philipj> a weird mix of lowercasing and case-insensitive comparison, this is
  320. # [13:20] <annevk> yes
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  322. # [13:21] <annevk> seems like we should do something consistent at least
  323. # [13:22] <philipj> well, getAttribute() seems to set a |shouldIgnoreCase| which is used to do a case-insensitive compare when iterating over the attributes
  324. # [13:23] <philipj> so at least Blink doesn't do the hash table thing, I guess there are too few attributes on average for it to be worth it
  325. # [13:23] <philipj> I agree this is pretty strange and inconsistent
  326. # [13:25] <philipj> how closely have you studied Gecko's and IE's black-box behavior? any hunch as to what state would be easiest to reach interop on?
  327. # [13:25] <annevk> Gecko is problematic since we changed
  328. # [13:25] <annevk> IE seemed to be mostly aligned with Chrome/Safari
  329. # [13:26] <annevk> |shouldIgnoreCase| seems easiest
  330. # [13:26] <philipj> right, did you just revert the change or is there now a old-Gecko vs. new-Gecko behavior to consider?
  331. # [13:26] <annevk> We haven't reverted the change yet
  332. # [13:26] <annevk> We need to decide on something though before we ship
  333. # [13:26] <philipj> did it reach stable and break stuff?
  334. # [13:26] <annevk> No, broke stuff earlier on
  335. # [13:26] <annevk> So now we need to figure out what to do
  336. # [13:27] <philipj> ok, that's a pretty good indication it's not going to fly. what was the attempted behavior? to lowercase like the spec says?
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  338. # [13:27] <annevk> Yeah, but we did not attempt lowercasing createAttribute()
  339. # [13:28] <annevk> The cases that surfaced would have worked if that lowercased, but there's probably other cases that would break
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  341. # [13:28] <annevk> IE seems to be more consistently case-insensitive
  342. # [13:28] <annevk> At least given https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1165851#c32
  343. # [13:29] <annevk> So making everyone do that seems like the most trivial change
  344. # [13:29] <annevk> The prettiest change would be lowercasing createAttribute()
  345. # [13:29] <philipj> there's really no way to measure the risk of lowercasing the input, as there's no way to track how the string returned by e.g. element.attributes[0].localName is used
  346. # [13:29] <annevk> yeah
  347. # [13:29] <annevk> :/
  348. # [13:30] <philipj> but wait, in an HTML document, should element.setAttribute('FOO', 'bar') result in an element with localName 'FOO'?
  349. # [13:30] * philipj tries
  350. # [13:30] <annevk> nope
  351. # [13:30] <annevk> different code path
  352. # [13:31] <philipj> so where should the lowercasing go in the hypothetical store-as-normalized go?
  353. # [13:32] <annevk> philipj: step 1.5 of https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createattributelocalname would do that
  354. # [13:32] <philipj> oh, so the extent of the compat risk is just when you manually create attribute nodes?
  355. # [13:33] <annevk> (at which point we might introduce some kind of abstract "create an attribute" operation that does all the work)
  356. # [13:33] <annevk> philipj: yeah
  357. # [13:33] <annevk> afaict that's the only place that does not lowercase
  358. # [13:33] <philipj> well, that actually doesn't sound too crazy
  359. # [13:40] <philipj> the relevant use counter is https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/111 at ~0.13%
  360. # [13:41] <annevk> I left a comment in the bug suggesting this alternative path
  361. # [13:42] <philipj> however, if the true justification for trying this is performance, perhaps someone should verify that it's really going to be faster to lowercase the input and do case-sensitive compares than to just do case-insensitive compares in the loop?
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  364. # [13:46] <annevk> philipj: I don't think perf is a great argument, it would mostly be consistency
  365. # [13:46] <philipj> what was Gecko's old behavior?
  366. # [13:46] <annevk> philipj: though perhaps perf is important for Selector matching
  367. # [13:47] <philipj> perf is pretty important in this context though, don't want Gecko implementing this new model and then we can't land it in Blink because there happens to be a perf test that regresses
  368. # [13:47] <philipj> oh wait, let me see what setAttribute does
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  370. # [13:49] <philipj> I'm still a bit confused, clearly setAttribute already does the lowercasing, and that's the point where one should be careful
  371. # [13:49] <annevk> philipj: I think per https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1075702 we might have lowercased for setNamedItem and friends
  372. # [13:50] <philipj> I link to think of all other APIs as aliases for setAttribute(NS) and getAttribute(NS), does that match your thinking?
  373. # [13:50] <annevk> philipj: but not createAttribute(), which would bem ore logical
  374. # [13:50] <philipj> s/link/like/
  375. # [13:50] <annevk> not really
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  377. # [13:51] <philipj> no? so instead all the web-exposed APIs are entry points into the same underlying algorithm?
  378. # [13:51] <annevk> yeah, they all share a bunch of logic
  379. # [13:52] <philipj> so, anyway, the important point is that it's strange if say setAttribute() has different rules for case-folding than say setting Attr.value
  380. # [13:52] <philipj> as long as that's not the case, it's fine
  381. # [13:52] <annevk> setAttribute() has different rules from createAttribute()
  382. # [13:52] <annevk> the value is never normalized
  383. # [13:52] <annevk> the problem here is around attribute names
  384. # [13:53] <philipj> sorry, I was thinking about changing the attribute name, but obviously you can't do that via Attr
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  387. # [13:55] <philipj> so are setAttribute(), setAttributeNS(), createAttribute() and createAttributeNS() the only entry points for scripts to create attributes, other than via the parser a la innerHTML?
  388. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> I believe that's correct
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  390. # [13:57] <philipj> well, then since the parser already normalizes the case, then trying to close that last hole that is createAttribute() does sound pretty good
  391. # [13:59] <philipj> however, this does mean that for setAttributeNS(namespace, 'FOO', value) the resulting Attr would have localName 'FOO', correct? and getAttribute('FOO') would fail to return that value, where it would currently
  392. # [14:00] <annevk> philipj: in Gecko that has always failed to return a value
  393. # [14:00] <annevk> philipj: not sure about other browsers
  394. # [14:00] <annevk> What Gecko did previously as far as I can tell is normalize case during setAttributeNode / setNamedItem... Ms2ger?
  395. # [14:01] <philipj> annevk: that does work in Blink currently
  396. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> I can look if you find me the bug that changed it...
  397. # [14:01] <annevk> philipj: yeah, and removeAttribute() does not
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  399. # [14:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1075702
  400. # [14:01] <philipj> annevk: same in IE11
  401. # [14:02] <philipj> don't know, given that it never worked in Gecko it could work out
  402. # [14:02] <annevk> philipj: I'm not worried about that though, seems like the smallest of all risks
  403. # [14:03] <philipj> annevk: what kind of code are you most worried about breaking?
  404. # [14:03] <annevk> philipj: attr.name == "FOO"
  405. # [14:03] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  406. # [14:04] <philipj> annevk: where "FOO" comes from document.createAttribute("FOO")?
  407. # [14:04] <annevk> yes
  408. # [14:04] <philipj> ok, would it be of any help to measure how often lowercasing the name in createAttribute() results in a different string?
  409. # [14:04] <philipj> as an upper limit of breakage
  410. # [14:05] <philipj> it would be a few months to get data, so if you're in a hurry it won't help you
  411. # [14:05] <annevk> Maybe. I think given what Gecko did before lowercasing is probably sound
  412. # [14:05] <annevk> Since the only code that would break is code that checked the name before appending the attribute
  413. # [14:05] <annevk> Since appending it lowercased the name in Gecko
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  416. # [14:11] <philipj> oh, so it was setAttribute that would change the case?
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  418. # [14:14] <philipj> one difference if doing it in createAttribute is that you don't yet know if it'll be attached to an HTML element, so the conditions won't be exactly the same
  419. # [14:14] <philipj> but that's probably fine
  420. # [14:15] <philipj> well, keep me posted on what you want to try in Gecko and if you change the spec for document.createAttribute(), in which case I'll add a use counter to gague if that'll be safe
  421. # [14:16] <annevk> philipj: setAttribute != setAttributeNode
  422. # [14:16] <annevk> I think I'll suggest to bz that we lowercase for createAttribute(), if he comes online again
  423. # [14:16] <philipj> annevk: uh, yes, I mean setAttributeNode(document.createAttribute('FOO'))
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  426. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: I just now reverted that change I made to github/xrefs that added the IETF Origin spec
  427. # [14:26] <annevk> ta
  428. # [14:36] <philipj> annevk: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1165851#c36
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  433. # [14:55] <JonathanNeal> Where would be the best place for someone to make a suggestion like extending RegExp to include a RegExp.escape function ala http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/regexp-escape-str/832
  434. # [14:55] <JonathanNeal> It would seem useful to provide some direction, like contact so-and-so or write an email to such-list.
  435. # [14:55] <Ms2ger> es-discuss
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  451. # [15:18] <JonathanNeal> Thanks, Ms2ger!
  452. # [15:19] <Sebmaster> annevk: i think i dont get it, why would it return null?
  453. # [15:20] <annevk> Sebmaster: read step 2 of https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-urlutils-origin
  454. # [15:21] <Sebmaster> ohhh
  455. # [15:22] <Sebmaster> so you serialize the GUID, which is not a scheme, host, port tuple
  456. # [15:22] <annevk> right
  457. # [15:22] <annevk> Sebmaster: I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28788 though to get HTML a little clearer on this
  458. # [15:22] <Sebmaster> is the GUID ever public then?
  459. # [15:22] <annevk> Sebmaster: it should just say "if origin is an opaque identifier, return 'null'"
  460. # [15:22] <annevk> Sebmaster: nope
  461. # [15:23] <annevk> Sebmaster: neither is the alias concept
  462. # [15:23] <Sebmaster> what're aliases?
  463. # [15:23] <Sebmaster> I havent read about those anywhere
  464. # [15:24] <annevk> Sebmaster: read HTML's definition of what an origin can be
  465. # [15:24] <annevk> Sebmaster: you encounter alias in the DOM, with <iframe> and such
  466. # [15:25] <Sebmaster> huh, wow
  467. # [15:25] <Sebmaster> there's so much we still have to get into jsdom :/
  468. # [15:27] <Sebmaster> Thanks, annevk
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  484. # [16:24] <darobin> Sebmaster: FWIW you're doing awesome work with jsdom, there's always more but keep it up :)
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  487. # [16:29] <Sebmaster> darobin: thanks!
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  489. # [16:36] <JonathanNeal> mathiasbynens: thank you for that ticket. Good, someone solved this five years ago.
  490. # [16:36] <mathiasbynens> JonathanNeal: well, not really, it’s still not being standardized
  491. # [16:36] <mathiasbynens> baby steps though :P
  492. # [16:37] <JonathanNeal> “The tree of features must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of polyfills and new threads.”
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  497. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> heh
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  504. # [16:56] <hsivonen> annevk: have you checked whether input methods in common use in Hong Kong and Taiwan produce astral characters and not PUA characters these days for the astral characters in Big5?
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  506. # [16:57] <annevk> no
  507. # [16:57] <hsivonen> annevk: it appears that Windows 8.1 comes with font coverage for the whole of Encoding Standard Big5 but Ubuntu does not (at least not by default in an en-US install)
  508. # [16:57] <annevk> philipj might have
  509. # [16:57] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. that's a possible source of risk, then
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  513. # [17:01] <smaug____> any amazon employees here?
  514. # [17:01] <annevk> smaug____: hey!
  515. # [17:01] <annevk> smaug____: so about web components
  516. # [17:02] <smaug____> annevk: yes, I pinged yesterday
  517. # [17:02] <annevk> smaug____: I think the only thing that was discussed is instead of an imperative API move back to the slots proposal
  518. # [17:02] <smaug____> (sorry, been offline/online unusual times because of uncle-duties)
  519. # [17:02] <annevk> smaug____: since everyone but Google was okay with that, and now Google is too
  520. # [17:02] <smaug____> right
  521. # [17:03] <smaug____> but there isn't really a proper slots proposal yet, right?
  522. # [17:03] <smaug____> I mean something which truly explain what would be spec'ed
  523. # [17:03] <smaug____> including when distribution happens (but I assume that it just sync)
  524. # [17:04] <smaug____> s/it/is/
  525. # [17:06] <annevk> smaug____: https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/blob/gh-pages/proposals/Slots-Proposal.md
  526. # [17:08] <annevk> hmm, new API that returns a NodeList...
  527. # [17:16] <smaug____> annevk: ah...
  528. # [17:16] <smaug____> doesn't explain when distribution happens
  529. # [17:16] <annevk> smaug____: right, that's still left up to the UA
  530. # [17:17] <annevk> I have somewhat mixed feelings about this...
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  543. # [17:41] <philipj> hsivonen: I didn't check any IMEs
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  545. # [17:42] <philipj> I would guess that the most common ones are Google pinyin and Sogou pinyin
  546. # [17:43] * philipj gotta go
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  608. # [19:13] <dglazkov> annevk, smaug____: going to hack on this with rniwa today. Hopefully, will flesh this out a bit more.
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  633. # [19:54] <annevk> dglazkov: cool
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  636. # [19:56] <dglazkov> annevk: on NodeList, please patch it up the way you like it
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  638. # [19:57] <dglazkov> I was just copying stuff from the current spec
  639. # [19:57] <annevk> will do
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  742. # [23:02] <wanderview> JakeA: ping
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  744. # [23:04] <JakeA> wanderview: hey, winding down for the night, but can pick up whatever in the morning
  745. # [23:04] <wanderview> np, I just realized I have to run in a minute as well
  746. # [23:04] <wanderview> sorry for the late ping
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  754. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> annevk: Re the simpsons cartoon, that's because it's what Troy McClure said in the episode (modulo JS stuff, obvs)
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  770. # Session Close: Thu Jun 11 00:00:00 2015

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