/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-06-11 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 11 00:00:00 2015
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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131. # [06:38] <Sebmaster> annevk: you there?
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138. # [07:05] <annevk> Sebmaster: waking up
139. # [07:05] <annevk> Sebmaster: what's up?
140. # [07:05] <Sebmaster> annevk: created an issue on whatwg/url
141. # [07:05] <Sebmaster> not that important/time-critical
142. # [07:07] <annevk> Sebmaster: I think you found a bug
143. # [07:07] <Sebmaster> sweet
144. # [07:07] <annevk> Sebmaster: should probably flush out step 5 to use the appropriate set
145. # [07:07] <annevk> 1.3.5 that is
146. # [07:07] <Sebmaster> currently reporting the bug to unicode too
147. # [07:07] <annevk> ooh wait
148. # [07:07] <annevk> actually that might not be a bug
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150. # [07:08] <Sebmaster> aww
151. # [07:08] <annevk> since all the code points that password/username add are treated specially in authority state
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153. # [07:09] <Sebmaster> what's that?
154. # [07:09] <annevk> Sebmaster: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#default-encode-set if you look at the password and username encode set
155. # [07:10] <annevk> Sebmaster: "/", "@", "\", and ":" all have special meaning within the authority state so could never end up there
156. # [07:10] <annevk> Sebmaster: I guess we might still want to add a note of sorts there to that effect
157. # [07:11] <Sebmaster> oooh, i think i found my error :/
158. # [07:11] <Sebmaster> sorry for bothering
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161. # [07:14] <Sebmaster> yeah, i got it... i simple encoded it
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169. # [07:26] <annevk> no worries
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197. # [09:09] <tobie> Anyone knows why DOMHighResTimeStamp is relative?
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200. # [09:13] <tobie> relative to performance.timing.navigationStart, I mean.
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202. # [09:14] <tobie> Is that due to some limitation as to how numbers can be represented in JS or is it just a weird choice?
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207. # [09:19] <ondras> Date.now() * 1000
208. # [09:19] <ondras> 1434007172260000
209. # [09:19] <ondras> Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER
210. # [09:19] <ondras> 9007199254740991
211. # [09:19] <ondras> not sure.
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216. # [09:25] <annevk> tobie: all time is relative :p
217. # [09:25] <tobie> go away, annevk
218. # [09:25] <annevk> tobie: but yeah, we don't have large enough numbers to get that kind of precision since epoch
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220. # [09:27] <tobie> new Date(Math.floor(Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER/1000))
221. # [09:27] <tobie> Wed Jun 06 2255 01:47:34 GMT+0200 (CEST)
222. # [09:31] <annevk> That roughly matches the 272 years at microsecond resolution from https://github.com/WebAudio/web-midi-api/issues/145#issuecomment-110477683
223. # [09:31] <annevk> DOMHighResTimeStamp is more precise
224. # [09:31] <tobie> I have no idea what I'm doing but that seems future proof for more than 2 centuries, no?
225. # [09:31] <annevk> Not if you want higher resolution...
226. # [09:31] <ondras> "accurate to the thousandth of millisecond"
227. # [09:32] <tobie> http://www.w3.org/TR/hr-time/#sec-DOMHighResTimeStamp
228. # [09:33] <ondras> I do not see why JS ints are not suffucient for the required microsecond precision
229. # [09:34] <tobie> annevk: oh, you're actually looking at that right now?
230. # [09:34] <tobie> annevk: I was looking at something similar for the sensor stuff
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233. # [09:36] <annevk> tobie: well, it's been going on for at least a year now
234. # [09:36] <annevk> tobie: but yeah, the plan is to change events to report DOMHighResTimeStamp instead
235. # [09:37] <tobie> From navigation start? or from epoch?
236. # [09:37] <annevk> Can't from epoch, so navigation start
237. # [09:37] <annevk> See comments in that issue from Brian
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239. # [09:37] <annevk> Oh, @birtles
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241. # [09:38] <birtles> yeah, I need to get on and finish making that change in Gecko
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243. # [09:39] <annevk> Yes!
244. # [09:39] <tobie> I don't understand half of the concerns birtles brought up, tbh.
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246. # [09:39] <birtles> tobie: which ones?
247. # [09:39] <tobie> And I mean that literally, I'm not contesting them.
248. # [09:39] <tobie> :)
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250. # [09:40] <birtles> the monotonically increasing thing?
251. # [09:40] <tobie> "I don't think you can have interop with Date if you want these values to be monotonically increasing"
252. # [09:40] <tobie> yeah, I don't understand how that could be an issue.
253. # [09:40] <ondras> annevk: I am still unsure why microseconds from the unix epoch are not suitable for JS numbers
254. # [09:41] <annevk> ondras: presumably the high resolution platform APIs don't give answers since epoch
255. # [09:41] <ondras> well
256. # [09:41] <ondras> 09:26 < annevk> tobie: but yeah, we don't have large enough numbers to get that kind of precision since epoch
257. # [09:42] <ondras> so I am not sure whether this is about the required precision
258. # [09:42] <annevk> ondras: well, people want nanoseconds I think
259. # [09:42] <ondras> ah
260. # [09:42] <tobie> annevk: where's *that* requirement?
261. # [09:42] <ondras> so it is possible to increase the precision backwards-compatibly by using floats
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263. # [09:42] <ondras> the number is still millis
264. # [09:42] <annevk> tobie: isn't that why we have performance.now()?
265. # [09:42] <ondras> but the precision increases to nanos
266. # [09:42] <ondras> interesting
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268. # [09:43] <tobie> annevk: it microseconds, per spec
269. # [09:43] <birtles> tobie: as I understand it Date.now() is not monotonically increasing, so when your computer's clock goes backwards due to DST or time adjustments etc. Date.now() also goes backwards
270. # [09:43] <birtles> tobie: so if you want event timestamps to line up with Date.now() values, then those times can go backwards now
271. # [09:44] <birtles> so if you're comparing the timestamps between events to see which one came first, you'll occasionally get wacky bugs
272. # [09:44] <birtles> performance.now() doesn't have the problem
273. # [09:45] <tobie> oh, all of this is because of the bloody daylight saving time?
274. # [09:45] <birtles> nah, there are other system time adjustments
275. # [09:45] <birtles> like sync with time servers etc.
276. # [09:45] <annevk> timezones
277. # [09:46] <tobie> annevk: isn't Date.now() UTC?
278. # [09:47] <tobie> birtles: but couldn't you still have something monotonic yet fully compatible?
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280. # [09:47] <birtles> tobie: I thought about that, but then I think you get even weirder bugs
281. # [09:48] <birtles> e.g. store the time internally using some monotonically increasing value and convert it on access
282. # [09:48] <birtles> but then if time changes between subsequent accesses you get even weirder bugs
283. # [09:49] <tobie> I'm not sure I get that.
284. # [09:49] <tobie> what do you mean by "on access"
285. # [09:49] <tobie> and "store the time internally"?
286. # [09:50] <birtles> basically, making Event.timeStamp live
287. # [09:50] <tobie> oh, that's not what I meant.
288. # [09:50] <birtles> ok, maybe I didn't get what you meant by fully compatible
289. # [09:51] <tobie> no wonder, that was kind of hand-wavy
290. # [09:51] <tobie> :)
291. # [09:51] <tobie> let me try to explain better
292. # [09:53] <tobie> right now DOMHighResTimeStamp is monotonic but starts at performance.timing.navigationStart
293. # [09:54] <tobie> so to turn something into a date you kind of have to do (pseudo code): new Date(DOMHighResTimeStamp + performance.timing.navigationStart)
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296. # [09:55] <tobie> what if instead you had DOMHighResTimeStamp start at epoch but be monotonic from the moment the page loads?
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298. # [09:57] <tobie> birtles: is that just a different flavor of hand-wavy or am I making more sense?
299. # [09:58] <birtles> tobie: in other words, store the time since navigationStart but at the API level, do the addition you described above automatically?
300. # [09:58] <tobie> yes
301. # [09:58] <birtles> I think there are two issues...
302. # [09:58] <tobie> only?
303. # [09:58] <birtles> :)
304. # [09:58] <birtles> one is that then you lose compatibility with Date
305. # [09:59] <birtles> since the values you're reporting no longer correspond to the values it returns
306. # [09:59] <tobie> how so?
307. # [09:59] <tobie> why would that be?
308. # [09:59] <birtles> if you update your system clock backwards 1 minute, Date.now() goes backwards 1 minute
309. # [10:00] <birtles> if you want to report a timestamp as a monotonically increasing value though it can't go backwards relative to any other timestamps
310. # [10:00] <tobie> sure, but Date.preciselynow() wouldn't
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312. # [10:00] <birtles> so it can't go backwards
313. # [10:00] <birtles> so you can't meaningfully compare those timestamps with Date.now() anymore
314. # [10:00] <tobie> Right
315. # [10:01] <birtles> so then the second issue is you lose compatibility with everything that's based on navigationStart: performance.now(), requestAnimationFrame, Web Animations etc.
316. # [10:01] <birtles> it seems like you lose compatibility with everything except some yet-to-be-created Date function?
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318. # [10:02] <tobie> well, unless you'd have to change performance.timing.navigationStart to always return 0
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320. # [10:03] <tobie> :D
321. # [10:03] <tobie> s/'d have to//
322. # [10:03] <birtles> yeah, that might work :) pretty sure no one would notice :)
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325. # [10:05] <tobie> I'm not sure if you're being 1) ironic, 2) not ironic, or 3) unsure yourself whether to be ironic or not ironic
326. # [10:06] <birtles> sorry, yeah, I don't think we'd get away with that and I'm not entirely sure it would be useful either
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328. # [10:08] <birtles> I think the fundamental problem is that Date.now() is not monotonically increasing (I just checked on this computer to be sure)
329. # [10:09] <tobie> I guess you're right and the only thing I'm after is: Date.fromPrecisionTiming() and Date.preciseNow = performance.now or something similar
330. # [10:09] <birtles> yeah, I can see that being useful
331. # [10:10] <tobie> That should belong in ES, tbh
332. # [10:11] <tobie> and so you'd also need a Date.contextStarted or some such
333. # [10:12] <birtles> yeah, I think we're still speccing workerStart at the moment
334. # [10:12] <tobie> equivalent of current performance.timing.navigationStart but not platform specific
335. # [10:12] <tobie> well, seems its at the wrong layer, no?
336. # [10:13] <tobie> How do I get that in node?
337. # [10:13] <tobie> new Date(timestamp + (performance.timing.navigationStart || this.workerStart || process.startTime))
338. # [10:14] <tobie> or rather:
339. # [10:14] <tobie> new Date(timestamp + ((performance && performance.timing && performance.timing.navigationStart) || this.workerStart || (process && process.startTime)))
340. # [10:15] <tobie> <3
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346. # [10:25] <tobie> birtles: here, I solved all the things for you: https://twitter.com/tobie/status/608912362813464576
347. # [10:26] <birtles> tobie: cheers, our work here is done
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362. # [10:47] <annevk> ECMAScript*, by Ecma
363. # [10:48] <tobie> oh--is it?
364. # [10:49] <tobie> Well, Ecma International, more precisely.
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367. # [10:52] <annevk> It used to be ECMA, but then they were no longer European and decided to turn the abbreviation into a name
368. # [10:53] <tobie> Yup. Wasn't aware ECMA had stuck in ECMAScript though.
369. # [10:55] <annevk> Well, given ES6 vs ECMAScript 2015 they always seem to go for maximum developer confusion
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378. # [11:09] <espadrine> that's not really on them, though—isn't that a decision made by TC39?
379. # [11:11] <annevk> TC39 is basically Ecma at this point
380. # [11:12] <annevk> Not much else to hold it alive
381. # [11:12] <annevk> I guess there's TC52 for Dart, but euh...
382. # [11:13] <espadrine> and that thing to pretend that docx is standardized
383. # [11:13] <espadrine> TC45
384. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> http://www.ecma.org/about-ecma/organisational-structure/ecma-tobacco-forum.html
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386. # [11:17] <ondras> :}
387. # [11:17] <ondras> nothing beats a good old tobacco packaging
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389. # [11:20] <tobie> MikeSmith: is that the same Ecma?
390. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> qyep
391. # [11:20] <tobie> I know they do a lot of other non-open, non-RF standards, but this stuff?
392. # [11:21] <annevk> Pretty sure that is not the same
393. # [11:21] <annevk> "ECMA – European Carton Makers Associations"
394. # [11:22] <tobie> not the same ecma
395. # [11:22] <tobie> they have the nice domain name though
396. # [11:23] <tobie> kind of worrying that a carton maker association snapped the domain name of the SDO defining the language used by the platform, but oh well.
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399. # [11:27] <darobin> my bad, I'm the one who confused ecma.org and ecma-international
400. # [11:27] <darobin> the official site for the latter redirects to their hosting provider...
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402. # [11:36] <tobie> darobin: afaik they're in the process of fixing it.
403. # [11:36] <darobin> why bother?
404. # [11:37] <tobie> darobin: (has been reported yesterday evening)
405. # [11:37] <darobin> forgot to pay the hosting fee?
406. # [11:37] <tobie> darobin: hook for IP commitments
407. # [11:37] <darobin> hmpf
408. # [11:37] <annevk> hallvors: so bz was asking about fetch() tests
409. # [11:37] <annevk> hallvors: I wonder how much we can reuse from XMLHttpRequest
410. # [11:37] <annevk> hallvors: and maybe from odinho's CORS tests
411. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Not much, I suspect
412. # [11:38] <annevk> At a high-level similar things are being tested, e.g. methods etc.
413. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> I heard that the source for the text on all cigarette cartons OS maintained in MS Word files. Pretty sure darobin is the one who told me that.
414. # [11:38] <hallvors> Hm..
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416. # [11:39] <hallvors> annevk: just write a polyfill making XHR requests use window.fetch(), reuse everything :-p
417. # [11:39] <annevk> And a bunch of the server infrastructure will be similar...
418. # [11:39] <annevk> But maybe it's too much effort to make something generic?
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420. # [11:40] <hallvors> the serious reply is: not sure off the top of my head. Probably needs to be decided on a test-by-test basis
421. # [11:40] <hallvors> (aka there's quite some work to do )
422. # [11:41] <hallvors> much of the backend stuff is rather trivial anyway, but of course nice to reuse
423. # [11:42] <darobin> tobie: I just released your PR
424. # [11:44] <annevk> hallvors: hmm, I'm not sure I want to be the one doing this
425. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> I know I don't want to be it either :)
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427. # [11:47] <annevk> jgraham: something is wrong with the links: http://w3c-test.org/fetch
428. # [11:48] <annevk> jgraham: that should probably redirect to /fetch/ since now nosniff points to http://w3c-test.org/nosniff/ which does not exist obviously
429. # [11:49] <hallvors> well, there's this thing called test the web forward
430. # [11:50] <hallvors> (which always seems like a gramatically dubious name, but then I'm not a native English speaker)
431. # [11:51] <annevk> I'm not sure those really work well
432. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> They don't
433. # [11:52] <annevk> In the end writing good tests is similar to writing good specifications or writing good implementations. You need to have quite a bit of experience.
434. # [12:00] <jgraham> annevk: What links?
435. # [12:01] <Ms2ger> annevk, http://w3c-test.org/fetch/ works
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437. # [12:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: I know
438. # [12:07] <annevk> jgraham: if you link to a directory without a trailing slash
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440. # [12:07] <annevk> jgraham: the links within the directory view
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446. # [12:13] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, there intentionally isn't any special magic to make /foo and /foo/ the same
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451. # [12:29] <karlcow> I wonder why annevk is asking about /foo and /foo/ if foo is a directory.
452. # [12:29] * karlcow knows that the default of Apache httpd are a bit painful with regards to this.
453. # [12:30] <annevk> karlcow: because I ended up at http://w3c-test.org/fetch and the link to nosniff is broken
454. # [12:30] <karlcow> Specifically in this case:
455. # [12:30] <karlcow> /foo/
456. # [12:30] <karlcow> /foo.html
457. # [12:30] <karlcow> when you request /foo
458. # [12:31] <jgraham> annevk: I think the bug there is that /fetch works at all
459. # [12:31] <jgraham> It really isn't supposed to
460. # [12:32] <karlcow> Server: BaseHTTP/0.3 Python/2.7.3
461. # [12:32] <karlcow> homemade server?
462. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> Yup
463. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> wptserve
464. # [12:33] <karlcow> https://github.com/w3c/wptserve
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468. # [12:47] <CrLF0710> hi, i'm reading the HTML spec, now i'm at Chapter 14. what does the 'i' in "table[align=left i] { float: left }" mean?
469. # [12:48] <jgraham> annevk: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5244
470. # [12:48] <annevk> CrLF0710: means ASCII case-insensitive matching
471. # [12:48] <annevk> CrLF0710: on the value
472. # [12:48] <annevk> CrLF0710: defined in Selectors
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474. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> jgraham, can't we redirect in that case rather than 404?
475. # [12:49] <CrLF0710> annevk: got it. thank you!
476. # [12:49] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I would much prefer not to
477. # [12:49] <annevk> jgraham: you could first check if a directory of that name exists and then redirect?
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479. # [12:51] <jgraham> annevk: The directory is known to exist, but not doing too much magic seems strictly better
480. # [12:54] <annevk> jgraham: I can't review that but looks okay
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483. # [13:04] <jgraham> annevk: You can review it now
484. # [13:06] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
485. # [13:06] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
486. # [13:07] <annevk> r+
487. # [13:08] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
488. # [13:08] <jgraham> Thanks
489. # [13:08] <tobie> darobin: ty
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491. # [13:09] <tobie> darobin: didn't know WebIDL had a ws option.
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493. # [13:09] <tobie> s/WebIDL/webidl2.js/
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508. # [13:49] <darobin> tobie: yeah it does as of I think about a year ago, I forget
509. # [13:49] <darobin> it's not like there's an announcement list or anything
510. # [13:49] <darobin> I wrote it specifically for use cases like jyasskin_w's thing
511. # [13:57] <tobie> darobin: darn, spent quite a while trying to figure out was was breaking
512. # [14:01] <darobin> tobie: sorry about that :(
513. # [14:01] <darobin> tobie: don't hesitate to ping me when you have trouble with that
514. # [14:01] <tobie> It was midnight
515. # [14:01] <tobie> You weren't around
516. # [14:04] <tobie> darobin: tbh, the problem had more to do with getting stack traces deep within compressed JS
517. # [14:05] <darobin> don't code at midnight
518. # [14:05] <darobin> be in bed, read a book man
519. # [14:05] <darobin> tobie: we could do sourcemaps if it helps
520. # [14:05] <tobie> that was excpetional, tbh, I generally no longer do this.
521. # [14:06] <tobie> nah, I think we should just migrate to browserify at some point and get all of this stuff for free.
522. # [14:06] <darobin> ah, the problem was inside ReSpec
523. # [14:06] <darobin> yeah, I should browserify it
524. # [14:07] <darobin> webidl2.js could have a distributed .min though, it's a nicety
525. # [14:07] <tobie> AMD was a bad id from the start
526. # [14:08] <tobie> idea, even
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528. # [14:09] <darobin> yeah
529. # [14:09] <darobin> I really had to fight RequireJS to get it to be useful for me
530. # [14:09] <darobin> it's a bit of a nightmare
531. # [14:09] <darobin> well, a kludge at least
532. # [14:10] <darobin> it's probably not a huge port to just browserify the whole thing, I'd say a day's worth of work tops
533. # [14:11] <tobie> famous last words
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537. # [14:15] <darobin> tobie: heh, nah, I really think it's not that much work
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540. # [14:21] <annevk> What should we call the flag that makes <img> and Beacon survive an environment settings object going down?
541. # [14:21] <annevk> Any other APIs that do that?
542. # [14:21] <annevk> "survive flag"?
543. # [14:22] <annevk> "survive client termination flag"?
544. # [14:22] <darobin> the gaynor flag
545. # [14:23] * Quits: g4 (~g4@unaffiliated/gormer) (Quit: Leaving)
546. # [14:23] <annevk> Don't get the reference :/
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551. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: if you go with the longer one, it should be "survive client-termination flag" with a hyphen
552. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> otherwise it sounds like it's a "termination flag" of some kind
553. # [14:56] <annevk> Does that also go for "local URLs only flag"?
554. # [14:56] <annevk> Or " same-origin data URL flag"?
555. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> yes
556. # [14:56] <annevk> "unsafe request flag"?
557. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> yes
558. # [14:56] <annevk> "CORS preflight flag"?
559. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> yes there too
560. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> hyphens all
561. # [14:56] <annevk> So many hyphens
562. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> well the alternative is ambiguity
563. # [14:57] <annevk> same-origin-data-URL?
564. # [14:57] * hsivonen tries to refactor HTML parsing code for character references
565. # [14:57] <hsivonen> test don't pass
566. # [14:57] * Joins: Gege (gege@future.deferred.io)
567. # [14:57] <annevk> "sandboxed storage area URLs flag"...
568. # [14:57] <hsivonen> &notit; looks like something that never works right on the first try after changing code
569. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: "same-origin data-URL flag" I would think
570. # [14:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: I might need some help with where the hyphens need to go
571. # [14:58] * MikeSmith looks for a style-guide reference
572. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, yay for tests :)
573. # [14:59] <annevk> I wish specifications had tests
574. # [14:59] <hsivonen> haha. I forgot to write some code I marked TODO a moment ago
575. # [14:59] <annevk> For over a month all responses lost URLs
576. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you working on refactoring it in order to deal with the ambiguous-ampersand stuff?
577. # [14:59] <annevk> And nobody noticed but me :-(
578. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> And you wrote a test that would have caught it?
579. # [15:00] <darobin> annevk: sorry, Gloria Gaynor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBR2G-iI3-I
580. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw are you waiting on me still for the patches parsing patches I pinged you for review?
581. # [15:00] * Ms2ger curses websockets
582. # [15:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: this refactoring is not for the ambiguos ampersands, but this is a good opportunity for me to recap the code so that I could review the patch
583. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> ok
584. # [15:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the goal of this refactoring is to stop OOM crashes on the release channel
585. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> oh boy
586. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> yeah that's a bit more important
587. # [15:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: so CORS-preflight flag?
588. # [15:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: what I don't understand is why "survive client-termination flag" does not make it a "client-termination flag" of some kind
589. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: well I'm not wedded to that patch, so if your refactoring makes it end up being "overtaken by events" in a way that's not mergeable to the refactored code,then no worries
590. # [15:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: back in 2008, there was a plan for infallible malloc in Gecko, but only part of the plan was implemented. When I ported the parser, I was assuming the full plan would be implemented...
591. # [15:06] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203)
592. # [15:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think I'll need to merge it manually, yes
593. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah "CORS-preflight flag" I think
594. # [15:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: at I think I need to actually try stuff with the patch locally before I can review
595. # [15:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: this stuff is very hard to review by just looking at the code
596. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok (about the manual merge) but I'm also happy to take another shot at it after the refactoring (if you want)
597. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, agreed (about being hard to review just be looking at the code, with this stuff)
598. # [15:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess that means "CORS preflight fetch" and such need hyphens too?
599. # [15:09] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems like a pretty big problem overall with https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/ at the moment
600. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: I would say so but I'm not the definitive work on this stuff
601. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> "In general, a compound modifier comprising an adjective plus a noun and preceding the word or words it modifies should be hyphenated"
602. # [15:09] <annevk> I guess I'll leave this hyphenless until someone can give me the rules
603. # [15:10] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like the html5lib tokenizer test format has changed since I last ran the tests
604. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: "survive client-termination flag" could also be "survive-client-termination flag" and yeah I agree it can start to look a bit silly and like overkill but the point is to make it clear and unambiguous, not necessarily pretty
605. # [15:11] <annevk> That latter spelling makes more sense to me
606. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://www.economist.com/style-guide/hyphens is one guide with some example
607. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> e.g., "third-world war" and "third world war" mean two different things
608. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.apastyle.org/learn/faqs/when-use-hyphen.aspx is good too
609. # [15:15] <tobie> darobin: does respec support syntax highlighting of JS? I assumed it did, but can't seem to get it working
610. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> http://www.thewriter.com/what-we-think/style-guide/to-hyphenate-or-not-to-hyphenate/
611. # [15:16] <hsivonen> The Chicago Manual of Style is *very* weird around this topic
612. # [15:16] <darobin> tobie: <pre class="example highlight">.... should work
613. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> "A man eating tiger" vs "A man-eating tiger"
614. # [15:16] <hsivonen> IIRC, it says that "Civil War-era" should be written with an en dash instead of a hyphen. (who does that?)
615. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah Chicago Manual has a lot of quaint idiosyncrasies
616. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> New Yorker magazine has some relics too, like they still use coöperate instead of cooperate like everybody else in the universe
617. # [15:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: coöperate isn't as weird as promoting a hyphen to an en dash
618. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> true
619. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/en-dash.html#compoundadjectives says something about that odd en-dash usage
620. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> "When a compound adjective is formed with an element that is itself an open compound or hyphenated compound, some writers replace the customary hyphen with an en dash."
621. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> but yeah I don't know who those "some writers" are
622. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> "The Oxford University Press style manual points out that ‘If you take hyphens seriously, you will surely go mad’."
623. # [15:25] <hsivonen> the editorial board of CMoS probably
624. # [15:25] <hsivonen> (being "some writers" that is)
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626. # [15:26] <hsivonen> in other news, I found a bug either in my parser code, in the unit tests or the spec. most likely in the parser
627. # [15:26] <hsivonen> though I'm pretty sure that the code followed the spec when written
628. # [15:26] <hsivonen> the issue being the name of the token in the <!DOCTYPE> case
629. # [15:26] <hsivonen> parser says "", tests say null
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632. # [15:33] * MikeSmith hopes it's not a regression caused by code he touched but pretty sure it could not be
633. # [15:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: code comments suggests that the code is ancient and written to then-spec
634. # [15:34] <hsivonen> so...
635. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> whew
636. # [15:34] <hsivonen> before the refactoring, I should have thought about overflowing numeric character references some more
637. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> I wouldn't be surprised if the spec changed in the mean time then
638. # [15:35] * hsivonen considers them now
639. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> character references is massive PITA
640. # [15:35] <hsivonen> yes
641. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> not worth the cost but stuck with it now
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645. # [15:39] * hsivonen finds a bug in the existing NCR overflow handling
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647. # [15:40] <hsivonen> fun
648. # [15:45] <hsivonen> only happens on EOF
649. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> that code is no joy ride
650. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> I guess it's the nature of the thing though
651. # [15:47] <hsivonen> &#11111111111EOF differs from &#1111111111EOF &#111111111111EOF &#11111111111x and &#11111111111;
652. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> that kinda rings some bells
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654. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> I think I independently noticed that when I was writing the othe patch
655. # [15:48] <hsivonen> wow
656. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> I spent quite a while looking at that code at the time, and testing
657. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> I guess I should have actually put some additional test cases somewhere
658. # [15:51] * Quits: fredy (~fredy@83.212.98.238) (Excess Flood)
659. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> but I sorta vaguely remember finding out, hmm, this doesn't actually work for all cases (I mean just as far as the patch I had written)
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661. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I guess I assumed the reason it didn't work for some cases was a problem in the code in my patch and not a problem already in the existing code
662. # [15:53] * Joins: fredy (~fredy@snf-535807.vm.okeanos.grnet.gr)
663. # [15:53] * MikeSmith wonders what html5ever source for handling this stuff looks like
664. # [15:55] * MikeSmith peruses https://github.com/servo/html5ever/blob/master/src/tokenizer/char_ref/mod.rs
665. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> oh I didn't know html5ever had actual error reporting for parse errors
666. # [15:57] <jgraham> WTAF
667. # [15:57] <jgraham> Is my Firefox broken or are github using a non-fixed width font for code>
668. # [15:59] <jgraham> Hmm, the font-family rule looks reasonable
669. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> looks like fixed-width in my Firefox
670. # [16:01] <jgraham> So apparently "Consolas" is being interpreted as something else
671. # [16:01] <jgraham> for me
672. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I got "Menlo Regular" (system) Used as: "Menlo"
673. # [16:06] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, isn't that a mac thing though
674. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> oh
675. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> yeah I guess so
676. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> ah font-family: Consolas, "Liberation Mono", Menlo, Courier, monospace;
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680. # [16:14] * annevk started using needsinfo on W3C Bugzilla
681. # [16:14] <annevk> So far, positive results!
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683. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> yay glob
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688. # [16:28] <hsivonen> hmm. does the spec really now involve scanning for an arbitrarily large number of alphanumeric ASCII after & to see if the sequence is followed by ;?
689. # [16:29] <hsivonen> to see if it's a parse error or not
690. # [16:29] <srji> cd /home/visualisierte/Web/uiani
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693. # [16:32] <annevk> edit dom.bs
694. # [16:32] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@c-71-202-24-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
695. # [16:32] <hsivonen> DoubleLongLeftRightArrow;
696. # [16:32] <hsivonen> ClockwiseContourIntegral;
697. # [16:32] <hsivonen> ooh. there is
698. # [16:32] <hsivonen> CounterClockwiseContourIntegral;
699. # [16:33] <hsivonen> that seems to be the longest valid character reference name
700. # [16:33] <hsivonen> but I guess I should check programmatically
701. # [16:34] * hsivonen wishes https://html.spec.whatwg.org/entities.json had existed way back when
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704. # [16:44] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
705. # [16:50] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
706. # [16:52] <wanderview> annevk: can you elaborate on what you mean in this comment? https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/710#issuecomment-111017003
707. # [16:53] <wanderview> what impact does opaque have on <img>?
708. # [16:53] <annevk> wanderview: that you cannot paint it on canvas and then read the bytes
709. # [16:53] <annevk> read the pixels*
710. # [16:53] <wanderview> annevk: is that spec'd anywhere yet?
711. # [16:54] <wanderview> and what behavior should painting on canvas implement? display, but reading rejects or returns zero or something?
712. # [16:56] <annevk> yeah, once you paint on canvas that taints it
713. # [16:56] <annevk> that is specced
714. # [16:56] <annevk> what is not specced is that if <img> gets an opaque response it needs to look at the internal response
715. # [16:57] <annevk> the idea is that most new features would not look at the internal response but would use the same API as everyone else
716. # [16:57] <annevk> thereby not creating new cross-origin information leaks
717. # [16:57] <annevk> (<img> leaks height/width)
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719. # [16:58] <wanderview> its in the canvas spec?
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722. # [16:59] <annevk> yeah
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724. # [17:00] <wanderview> origin-clean
725. # [17:00] <wanderview> I see it
726. # [17:00] <wanderview> now to find where gecko implements that
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740. # [17:28] <wanderview> annevk: I think maybe we should write a separate spec issue for this... the only thing I see in the SW spec is non-normative text: "Renderer-side security checks about tainting for cross-origin content are tied to the transparency (or opacity) of the Response body, not URLs."
741. # [17:28] <wanderview> it seems the steps should say something about tainting based on opacity
742. # [17:30] <wanderview> I guess the steps don't really say to do anything in respondWith()... they just... end
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744. # [17:33] <wanderview> hmm, no it returns it to Main Fetch through HandleFetch
745. # [17:33] <wanderview> annevk: does normal document loading integrate with Main Fetch or HandleFetch anywhere? maybe thats what I am missing
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748. # [17:38] <annevk> wanderview: everything invokes #concept-fetch
749. # [17:38] <annevk> wanderview: I guess I need to review SW again
750. # [17:39] <wanderview> annevk: does it say to use the internal body of an opaque response? because I guess its the internal things that use fetch that need to say that
751. # [17:40] <annevk> wanderview: I don't follow
752. # [17:40] <annevk> wanderview: ah, when you navigate someplace and get an opaque response that fails
753. # [17:41] <annevk> wanderview: Fetch has some checks for that, results in a network error
754. # [17:41] <wanderview> annevk: sorry, not navigate itself...
755. # [17:42] <wanderview> annevk: what in spec says the browser should look at the internal response body when an opaque response is passed to respondWith() for a resource load (not navigation)
756. # [17:42] <wanderview> ?
757. # [17:42] <wanderview> doesn't that need to be done in whatever uses #concept-fetch?
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759. # [17:43] <annevk> yes
760. # [17:44] <annevk> wanderview: Fetch also needs to work on the internal response
761. # [17:45] <wanderview> annevk: but does something in the main html spec use concept-fetch?
762. # [17:45] <annevk> wanderview: it currently doesn't in https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-http-fetch which might be buggy
763. # [17:45] <annevk> wanderview: not literally right now, but the whole platform does conceptually
764. # [17:46] <annevk> back later
765. # [17:46] <wanderview> annevk: well, I think its literal for the respondWith() case, right? the browser is loading an <img> element and the SW intercepts with respondWith()... that integration between <img> load and respondWith() Response is not really spec'd anywhere yet, right?
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767. # [17:48] <annevk> wanderview: once HTML et al are updated to use #concept-fetch, that would be specified
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769. # [17:48] <wanderview> ok, thanks
770. # [17:48] <annevk> I mean, as long as those specifications are not updated, nothing would result in a SW being booted to handle their fetches...
771. # [17:49] <annevk> Technically...
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773. # [17:49] <wanderview> yea
774. # [17:50] <wanderview> stuff like passing on the tainting is not spec'd yet either, then
775. # [17:51] <ek_> hello
776. # [17:51] <ek_> i have a question related to HTML5 spec
777. # [17:51] <ek_> In the spec when it says await a stable state
778. # [17:51] <ek_> what does it mean by stable state?
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782. # [17:58] <JonathanNeal> I wanted to bring to your attention an issue I have with :focus and :hover being separate pseudo-classes, and pitching a solution @ http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/a-common-pseudo-class-for-hover-and-focus/877
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797. # [18:27] <annevk> heycam: you around?
798. # [18:27] <annevk> heycam: the algorithms to get bytes out of a BufferSource can throw
799. # [18:27] <annevk> heycam: due to e.g. the buffer being detached
800. # [18:28] <annevk> heycam: it would be much nicer if the binding layer threw, no?
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803. # [18:30] <Domenic> https://github.com/orgs/improved-permissions?utm_source=github_site&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=organization-permissions looks useful
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816. # [18:53] <heycam> annevk: hi, yes but about to head out to dinner
817. # [18:57] <heycam> annevk: where is the algorithm now, in Fetch?
818. # [18:58] <heycam> annevk: oh no, we've got the "get a copy of the bytes held by the buffer source" term in IDL
819. # [18:58] <heycam> and "Attempting to get a reference to or get a copy of the bytes held by a buffer source when the ArrayBuffer has been detached will fail in a language binding-specific manner."
820. # [18:58] <heycam> so yes, I think having something in IDL that says the specific failure mode would be good
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823. # [19:00] <heycam> hmm, so in http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-buffer-source-types we check for [[ArrayBufferData]] being null, and throw
824. # [19:00] <heycam> which I think is the state when the buffer has been detached
825. # [19:00] <heycam> can you verify that's right?
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853. # [19:49] <annevk> heycam|away: yeah
854. # [19:50] <annevk> heycam|away: I'll file a bug on making that use IsDetachedBuffer
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903. # [21:09] <Domenic> annevk: btw we are collecting code coverage on web-platform-tests vs. jsdom/whatwg-url: https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/issues/8
904. # [21:10] <Domenic> annevk: hopefully we will supplement web-platform-tests with 100% coverage before this is all over
905. # [21:10] <Domenic> right now it is like 70%
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917. # [21:24] <jgraham> Domenic++
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921. # [21:28] <tobie> this is probably a very daft question, is it possible to throw DOM Exceptions from application code, and if so, what's the best practice to do it?
922. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> new DOMException()
923. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> Works in Gecko
924. # [21:30] <Domenic> Not in Chrome yet, but soon
925. # [21:32] <tobie> oh, that's why. :)
926. # [21:33] <jib> tobie: in firefox: throw new DOMException("hi", "SyntaxError"); http://jsfiddle.net/gm2czfva
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928. # [21:34] <tobie> ty jib
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941. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> Who still theoretically "maintains" Anolis? Can we get that person to put a big "THIS TOOL IS NOT MAINTAINED, PLEASE USE BIKESHED INSTEAD" message on all the docs and download pages?
942. # [22:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: ^
943. # [22:04] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: ^^
944. # [22:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.202.50.223) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
945. # [22:04] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
946. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> (Someone just dropped by w3c#pub with a problem publishing a spec using Anolis, and robin was rightly horrified that they were even capable of doing that at this point.)
947. # [22:05] <jgraham> (something, something, horrified, respec, something)
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949. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> Baby steps.
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951. # [22:06] <tantek> bikeshed > respec b/c js;dr something something
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967. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> tantek: Well, there are a few reasons, related to both user experience and ecosystem health, but yeah.
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969. # [22:22] <tantek> TabAtkins: agreed, hence the something something :)
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974. # [22:31] <jsbell> tobie: per spec, `new` is optional for DOMException() constructor, just like native JS errors. That's holding me up landing Chrome support (it shouldn't but I'm also lazy...)
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977. # [22:33] <tobie> jsbell: do we get to add new error codes to it?
978. # [22:33] <tobie> (asking for a friend)
979. # [22:34] <jsbell> tobie: no; if you pass a known name (from webidl spec) it gets stamped with the right code, otherwise .code === 0
980. # [22:34] <jsbell> Unless you meant new error names, in which case yeah, use any string you want.
981. # [22:35] <tobie> I don't know what I meant
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983. # [22:35] <tobie> Imagine I'd like to have CacheMissError in a spec, how would I go about doing that?
984. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, can do, send me email
985. # [22:37] <jsbell> tobie: "throw a CacheMissError exception." where 'throw' references the algorithm in webidl
986. # [22:37] <tobie> and that's it?
987. # [22:37] <tobie> I don't need to define CacheMissError anywhere?
988. # [22:38] * tobie goes crazy
989. # [22:38] <jsbell> tobie: or "throw a new DOMException with error name CacheMissError"
990. # [22:38] <jsbell> it's just a string
991. # [22:38] <jsbell> go wild
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993. # [22:38] <jsbell> (the former is the short form I've seen annevk using and I've borrowed, webidl uses the latter)
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995. # [22:39] * tobie throws a NSFWError exception.
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997. # [22:39] <tobie> ty
998. # [22:40] <jsbell> webidl says "if you invent new exception types, report 'em and they'll get added asap" but I think that's just to keep the documentation in one place
999. # [22:40] <jsbell> in IDB "v2' I still have all the exception types documented, but it does defer all details to webidl
1000. # [22:40] <tobie> k
1001. # [22:41] <jsbell> (^^ not an actual quote)
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