/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-06-16 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jun 16 00:00:01 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:53] * jwalden wonders how cynical he should be about Apple's unilateral <link rel="icon" mask> thingamabob
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# [01:54] <jarek> Hi
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# [01:55] <jarek> On Chrome element.nodeName and element.tagName are returning uppercase strings for HTML elements (e.g. "BODY") and lowercase strings for SVG elements inside HTML (e.g. "rect")
# [01:56] <jarek> Is this standard behavior? If so, are there any plans to introduce a new property that would be more consistent?
# [01:59] <jarek> Google shows 113,000 results for "nodeName.toLowerCase()" query
# [01:59] <boogyman> just pass it through a normalization workflow (toLowerCase() or toUpperCase()) before evaluation.
# [02:00] <jarek> boogyman: yeah, that's what I'm doing right now, but this is used so often that it really deserves better API
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# [02:02] <jarek> Attribute nodes have the property "node" which gives me lowercase values
# [02:02] <jarek> I mean "name", not "node"
# [02:02] <jarek> it would make perfect sense to also have "node" property on elements
# [02:03] <jarek> oops, I meant "name", not "node", again
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# [02:22] <ek_> hello
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# [02:38] <karlcow> jarek: maybe better https://github.com/search?q=%22nodeName.toLowerCase%28%29%22&ref=searchresults&type=Code&utf8=%E2%9C%93
# [02:39] <karlcow> even https://github.com/search?l=javascript&q=%22nodeName.toLowerCase%28%29%22&ref=searchresults&type=Code&utf8=%E2%9C%93
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# [02:45] <jarek> karlcow: Github code search is broken
# [02:45] <jarek> e.g. try https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%22tagName.toLowerCase%22&type=Code&ref=searchresults
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# [02:50] <jarek> or even https://github.com/search?l=javascript&q=tagName+toLowerCase&ref=searchresults&type=Code&utf8=%E2%9C%93
# [02:50] <jarek> almost every bigger project uses this hack somewhere
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# [02:53] <karlcow> ah better search. Cool
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# [03:29] <MikeSmith> for anybody around who's knowledgeable about Chrome's WebRTC implementation: it seems like a bug that doesn't recognize RTCPeerConnection.createOffer() (with no args)
# [03:30] <MikeSmith> so I'm wondering if there might be an open Chromium bug for that
# [03:31] <MikeSmith> the WebIDL at http://w3c.github.io/webrtc-pc/#interface-definition says:
# [03:31] <MikeSmith> interface RTCPeerConnection : EventTarget { Promise<RTCSessionDescription> createOffer (optional RTCOfferOptions options);
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# [04:55] <MikeSmith> heycam: any chance you might be able to rope in somebody to review the SVG tests you submitted?
# [04:55] <MikeSmith> otherwise they might end up just sitting for a while
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# [04:56] <MikeSmith> wonder if ed could be talked into reviewing
# [04:56] <heycam> MikeSmith, I sent an email to jgraham asking about review procedures but maybe it got caught in a spam filter
# [04:56] <MikeSmith> oh
# [04:56] <heycam> MikeSmith, how do we (SVG WG members) become allowed to review tests?
# [04:56] <MikeSmith> or maybe jgraham just not made time to reply yet
# [04:57] <MikeSmith> anybody can review
# [04:57] <MikeSmith> just not everybody can merge to master
# [04:57] <heycam> I see
# [04:57] <heycam> how do you indicate r+?
# [04:57] <MikeSmith> using this critic tool thing that came from Opera originally
# [04:57] <heycam> aha
# [04:58] <heycam> and then someone will be alerted to the fact that it passed review, and one of you wpt owners will merge it?
# [04:58] <MikeSmith> yup
# [04:58] <MikeSmith> exactly that
# [04:58] <heycam> ok, great
# [04:58] <heycam> I had a couple of questions about file format / testing approach in those two PRs
# [04:58] <MikeSmith> I don't know if you've used critic before but it's not so bad
# [04:58] <MikeSmith> oh
# [04:59] <MikeSmith> OK I might be able to answer
# [04:59] <heycam> so hopefully one of you can answer those, so I've got a baseline I can review other tests from
# [04:59] <MikeSmith> ok
# [04:59] <MikeSmith> did you send the questions to a mailing list?
# [04:59] <MikeSmith> if not, you might want to
# [04:59] <heycam> no, they're just in the PRs
# [04:59] <MikeSmith> ah OK
# [04:59] * MikeSmith looks now
# [04:59] <heycam> is there a mailing list that's good for wpt discussion?
# [05:00] <MikeSmith> yeah, we use public-test-infra@w3.org
# [05:00] <MikeSmith> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/
# [05:00] <heycam> ok, I'll get on that one
# [05:02] <MikeSmith> so about the question of the best way to handle scripted SVG tests, I take it you mean putting the script in HTML test file itself vs a separate file
# [05:02] <MikeSmith> if so there's no policy nor any recommended best practice really
# [05:02] <heycam> yeah, or even just having the SVG document as the top level thing and including testharness.js in there
# [05:02] <heycam> I figure the test harness reporting thing won't work if you do that though
# [05:02] <MikeSmith> ah
# [05:03] <MikeSmith> yeah the reporting thing wouldn't work in that case
# [05:04] <MikeSmith> I guess we could figure out a way to make it work, if that would make it easier to write SVG tests
# [05:04] <heycam> nah, it should be fine. we're not really caring about UAs that support SVG and script but not HTML
# [05:04] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
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# [05:05] <heycam> one other question: my reftest for <rect> is comparing against an <div>. some people in the WG (last week at the F2F) said they would prefer not comparing against HTML, and would rather a PNG reference there
# [05:05] <heycam> wdyt?
# [05:09] <MikeSmith> I guess comparing against HTML is what existing wpt tests would normally do, but I suppose in that's in part just because it's all assuming an HTML UA to begin with
# [05:09] <MikeSmith> but SVG is different of course
# [05:10] <MikeSmith> so anyway it wouldn't be against policy or best practice to compare against a PNG reference
# [05:10] <MikeSmith> there are probably some existing tests that already do I guess
# [05:10] <heycam> ok
# [05:10] <heycam> I figure if we do that it's probably only go to be for some of the base tests that all the rest of the tests rely on
# [05:10] <MikeSmith> it's maybe just more work for you as the test authro
# [05:10] <MikeSmith> ok
# [05:10] <heycam> yeah, generating the PNG is a little annoying
# [05:12] <MikeSmith> yeah but it's not a huge hardship and if is makes others happier I guess it might be worth it
# [05:12] <MikeSmith> btw about <link rel=help> thing, is there a reason to not point it to the ED?
# [05:12] <heycam> yeah. it will make it easier for example for Inkscape to import the tests.
# [05:12] <heycam> no good reason; I just copied another test that pointed to TR/
# [05:12] <MikeSmith> ah Inkscape yeah (the PNG thing)
# [05:13] <heycam> still there are probably a bunch of SVG text tests that would warrant testing against HTML
# [05:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [05:14] <MikeSmith> and for better or worse, I think the harness and infrastructure overall pretty much assume an HTML UA
# [05:15] <heycam> for sure. though hopefully do have their own harness to import and run the tests in an automated fashion.
# [05:15] <heycam> *hopefully vendors
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# [05:16] <heycam> I will get a bit more time to look at the tests after the end of this month. thanks for the answers; I'll direct questions to public-test-infra as they come up.
# [05:17] <MikeSmith> yeah (about automation), though jgraham has been working hard on making it possible for all vendors to integrate wptrunner into their CI (similar to the way mozilla CI does already)
# [05:17] <MikeSmith> super
# [05:17] <MikeSmith> and if/when it's faster, feel free to also ping me any time here or on #testing
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# [05:18] <heycam> ok, cheers
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# [07:03] * annevk wonders why jarek doesn't use localName
# [07:03] <annevk> heycam: MikeSmith: using PNGs seems bad
# [07:03] <annevk> heycam: MikeSmith: it's one of the reasons WebKit/Blink have so much overhead
# [07:04] <annevk> heycam: MikeSmith: in their testing infrastructure
# [07:04] <heycam> it would only be for a couple of basic tests
# [07:04] <heycam> I agree we don't want to have PNGs for everything
# [07:04] <heycam> (their repo was massive because they had PNGs for everything)
# [07:05] <annevk> heycam: I don't really understand why on the one hand the WG is okay with accepting HTML / scripting, but on the other hand they'd want to use PNG for reftests
# [07:05] <annevk> heycam: but that does sound better
# [07:06] <heycam> it would help at least for the Inkscape folks, who can't run script, but do want to be able to run the reftests
# [07:06] <heycam> though Rossen preferred the PNG for the <rect> test too
# [07:06] * heycam shrugs
# [07:06] * heycam should look up what Gecko has for <path> reftests, if anything
# [07:07] <heycam> the answer is: very little
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# [07:33] <MikeSmith> annevk: heycam I would assume that enabling a few ad-hoc PNG reftests for some SVG tests wouldn't require any additional infrastructure outside of what those tests need themselves, nor require needing to provide some general supported mechanism in the wpt infrastructure to do it for other tests
# [07:34] <MikeSmith> but that said, if it requires any python modules that we aren't already requiring, then even just that would make it a non-starter probably
# [07:35] <MikeSmith> see jgraham comment at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2015AprJun/0010.html
# [07:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: the problem for WebKit/Blink is 1) weight of the repo and 2) the cost of having to regenerate those images
# [07:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: 2) might be less of a problem for SVG than it is for ordinary layout tests
# [07:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: but once you start with fonts, it's still tricky I think
# [07:36] <heycam> annevk, I reckon for text/font tests that need it, comparing against HTML should be ok
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# [07:36] <heycam> and hopefully Ahem can be used for most of the rest of SVG text tests
# [07:38] <MikeSmith> as far at the PNGs, if it's possible for static PNGs to be used rather than needing be dynamically generated, the those can just be checked in and we don't have any cost other than the additional footprint
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# [07:39] <heycam> yeah I'm not expecting the reference PNGs to change
# [07:39] <MikeSmith> I wouldn't think we'd be looking at much additional weight for the repo if it's just isolated to these SVG tests
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# [07:39] <heycam> and it's not like we have the problem of pixel-perfect checking that WebKit's tests require (or required?), over multiple platforms
# [07:40] <MikeSmith> heycam: yeah OK then I think the potential problems annevk mentioned might not be so relevant in this particular case
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# [07:41] <MikeSmith> (but that said I agree with annevk that we'd never want to end up with that problems that WebKit/Blink have created for themselves with what they built out for the general case)
# [07:42] <heycam> right, I agree
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# [07:48] <annevk> Hmm, going through http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20141119#l-235 again I can't find the bug rubys was talking about
# [07:48] <annevk> As far as I can tell prepending always works fine
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# [07:49] <annevk> Because the buffer is cleared after each time you see @
# [07:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: other than "hmm, yeah, there's a bug there, I can't reproduce reordering in Firefox"?
# [07:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess I should test browsers
# [07:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: afaict for http://@test@test@example.com/ you want a username that is %40test%40test and Firefox seems to do just that
# [07:54] <annevk> Chrome does the same
# [07:54] <annevk> So maybe I was reading the specification wrong back then?
# [07:54] <annevk> In any event, I should check that this is tested
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# [08:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah (about %40test%40test for username)
# [08:23] <Ms2ger> So is it me or have I not seen Hixie in a long time?
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# [08:52] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah he's not been around here so much recently
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> abarth not been around as much for a while either
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# [09:52] <philipj> Ms2ger: how do you pronounce your nick?
# [09:52] <philipj> is it like i18n, so "messenger" or something?
# [09:52] <Ms2ger> There is no canonical pronunciation
# [09:54] <philipj> Well OK, I'll just make stuff up then :)
# [09:54] <annevk> miss-too-ger
# [09:54] <philipj> I think of V'ger
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> I just say "em es two gee ee are"
# [09:59] <MikeSmith> which is longer but more elegantly symmetrical in that it has the same number of syllables as "Anne van Kesteren"
# [09:59] <philipj> We'll just have to wait until Ms2ger writes a book that gets recorded as an audio book
# [10:00] <philipj> MikeSmith: coincidence? I think not!
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> I vote for that book to be narrated either by Benedict Cumberbatch or Ian McShane
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# [10:02] <philipj> "A technological history of mutation events, by em es two gee ee are, narrated by that guy from Sherlock"
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# [10:04] <Ms2ger> I have no connection with Wimbledon Tennismatch
# [10:05] <MikeSmith> "with interludes from Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer read by James Graham in the speaking manner of Blackbeard from one of those Johnny Depp pirate movies"
# [10:06] <philipj> :)
# [10:06] <Ms2ger> Based on interviews with /smaug/
# [10:09] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [10:14] <annevk> It seems Safari simply returns failure if it sees a duplicate @
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# [10:18] <annevk> Sebmaster: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1907
# [10:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: ^
# [10:18] * MikeSmith looks
# [10:18] <Sebmaster> annevk: got it ;)
# [10:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: will review it shortly
# [10:23] * annevk reaches out to the Safari team
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# [10:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: I don't find a test for "http://`{}:`{}@h/`{}?`{}" in Sebmaster's file at https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/blob/master/test/additional-tests.txt
# [10:29] <annevk> he tests for `, {, and }, based on recent changes to the specification
# [10:29] <MikeSmith> I see one for "http://test:a{b@localhost" and one for "http://localhost?query=a`b"
# [10:29] <MikeSmith> ok
# [10:30] <annevk> I adjusted the test to cast a somewhat wider net
# [10:30] <MikeSmith> hai
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# [10:37] * MikeSmith sees the "Use the username and password encode sets within authority state" spec change come across
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# [10:41] <Sebmaster> annevk: sweet, i think the new fragment tests found a bug in my implementation
# [10:41] <annevk> Sebmaster: well I had to change the specification for them, so :-)
# [10:41] <Sebmaster> ohh :<
# [10:41] <annevk> Sebmaster: https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/7468c397f600b72f650f52fc02466f051bf96ad3
# [10:42] <Sebmaster> but the @ flag didnt break anything i think
# [10:42] <annevk> Sebmaster: yeah, the @ flag was a non-issue
# [10:42] <annevk> Sebmaster: at least, I can't think of a reason why I thought it was a problem and looking at the specification today it seems fine
# [10:43] <annevk> Sebmaster: you could watch whatwg/url if you want to see the commits come by
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# [10:44] <annevk> or follow on Twitter I suppose
# [10:44] <Sebmaster> hrm... but watching gives me all issue comments right?
# [10:44] <annevk> Yeah it would
# [10:45] <Sebmaster> twitter it is
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# [10:51] <annevk> mathiasbynens: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27641 (feel free to sort this out)
# [10:51] <annevk> mathiasbynens: I think hober also has some insights here and a funny demo URL that shows how broken RTL URLs are
# [10:52] <annevk> mathiasbynens: my thinking at the moment is that I'll wait and put a recommendation in the specification once UAs have demonstrated something that works reasonably well
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# [10:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: wow https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=351639 is epic (the "Security: Spoofable RTL URLs in the UI" bug)
# [10:53] <annevk> quick, resurrect John Milton for a poem
# [10:54] <MikeSmith> heh
# [10:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: does the proposal from Matt Giuca have agreement?
# [10:54] <MikeSmith> I mean as far as Chrome goes
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# [10:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: not sure, I had not read that far
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# [10:56] <MikeSmith> ah yeah I see mathiasbynens just recently cc'ed you
# [10:56] <annevk> This does not look as bad as what Safari does
# [10:56] <annevk> Safari puts part of the path into the domain
# [10:56] <Sebmaster> annevk: i think im missing a set relative flag now to make `pathname` return schema data instead of "/"
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# [11:00] <annevk> Sebmaster: hmm yes
# [11:00] <annevk> Sebmaster: I guess I should just inline it
# [11:00] <Sebmaster> so not my impl?
# [11:01] <annevk> Sebmaster: bug in spec
# [11:01] <Sebmaster> great
# [11:01] <Sebmaster> ... for me, that is :D
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# [11:04] <MikeSmith> finding spec bugs is the greatest achievement possible, so it's always good
# [11:04] <MikeSmith> the prayer bells ring in heaven every time somebody finds a spec bug
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# [11:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think you need to recalibrate your achievementometer there
# [11:10] <Ms2ger> Morning jgraham
# [11:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What do you want? :)
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# [11:17] <annevk> Sebmaster: fixed
# [11:18] <Sebmaster> annevk: on it
# [11:19] <Sebmaster> annevk: lookin good
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# [11:19] <Sebmaster> all tests pass again (including the new ones)
# [11:22] <annevk> I guess I should start working on (new URL("test", "test://x/")).href === "test://x/test" as that's going to be a lot of work :-(
# [11:26] <Sebmaster> annevk: good luck... or something :D
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# [12:10] <annevk> Yeah, this is a giant mess
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# [12:37] <Ms2ger> jgraham, just to say good morning
# [12:44] <hsivonen> so, according to Wikipedia, it seems like Gecko's Big5-HKSCS support has been stuck to a pre-2004 level for a decade...
# [12:46] <Ms2ger> When did ftang leave? :)
# [12:46] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: in 2003 at the latest if not before
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# [14:10] <annevk> SimonSapin: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2015Jun/0028.html
# [14:14] <SimonSapin> annevk: data:/../ becomes data:/ ‽
# [14:14] <annevk> yeah
# [14:15] <SimonSapin> this makes no sense
# [14:15] <annevk> that's actually pretty much what RFC 3986 says
# [14:15] <annevk> so things will be much closer to what the IETF does
# [14:15] <annevk> also, see topic?
# [14:16] <SimonSapin> so are you supposed to use something like data:%2F..%2F ?
# [14:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: data URLs don't start with a slash typically so it's not a problem
# [14:17] <SimonSapin> is it only at the start?
# [14:17] <annevk> if you start with a slash you become a relative URL
# [14:17] <SimonSapin> what about, say, data:,a/../
# [14:17] <annevk> that would stay as-is, obviously
# [14:17] <annevk> it's no longer a path
# [14:17] <SimonSapin> is that current impls, or a proposal?
# [14:17] <annevk> current impls per the email?
# [14:18] <SimonSapin> obviously, not that obvious to me
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# [14:23] <SimonSapin> annevk: I’d like to take more time to look into this, but I can’t really in the next two weeks
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# [14:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: I'm pretty sure about my general outline, but I guess I can always revert if you find a showstopper
# [14:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: we can discuss it more next week if you want
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# [14:36] <SimonSapin> annevk: will you be in Whistler ?
# [14:36] <annevk> yeah
# [14:36] <SimonSapin> ok, we can chat about it then
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# [14:55] <annevk> philipj: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=912470#c69
# [14:55] <annevk> philipj: hsivonen is implementing your big5 work
# [14:59] <philipj> annevk, hsivonen, I hope it works out, it would be sweet if we can have the big5 label always mean the same thing
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# [15:01] <annevk> philipj: if you didn't click, you might want to look and answer the question about that test
# [15:01] * annevk hopes it works out too
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# [15:08] <philipj> annevk: I did follow the link, but didn't recognize test_big5.js as my thing, is it just the data from the spec?
# [15:08] <annevk> oh oops
# [15:08] <annevk> it's from jsbell
# [15:08] <annevk> my bad
# [15:09] <annevk> I assumed it must be yours if he found it someplace online
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# [15:10] <annevk> Sebmaster: supporting relative URLs all over might not actually be that bad, a lot can be reused, though it depends a bit on how we decide to do certain things
# [15:11] <annevk> Sebmaster: I guess I'll start with writing tests though so you can catch all my bugs :p
# [15:11] <philipj> nope, I wasn't involved with that. Just a single input and a single output seems not enough to test this well, someone (tm) needs to write tests that target specific steps of the algorithm in the spec I think
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# [15:12] <annevk> if only I could get a hold of that someone (tm) I might make them write some other tests too
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# [15:24] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think they're talking about you ;)
# [15:29] <MikeSmith> heh
# [15:29] <Sebmaster> annevk: i love tests
# [15:29] <Sebmaster> not writing them though :>
# [15:30] <MikeSmith> the only thing funner than writing tests is reviewing them
# [15:31] <MikeSmith> wait not, debugging intermittent test failures is the funnest beyond those two things put together
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# [16:26] <annevk> SimonSapin: I'm going with your idea btw of clearly calling out "ASCII strings" in the specification
# [16:27] <SimonSapin> annevk: ok
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# [16:57] <annevk> Hmm, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015AprJun/0901.html only Domenic's email is not clickable
# [16:57] <annevk> Did someone use a regular expression to parse email addresses and assumed everyone would use at least two characters?
# [16:57] <SimonSapin> or have a TLD whitelist
# [16:58] <wanderview> this is my new mental image for spec writers: http://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-2985172-stock-footage-happy-engineer-holding-blueprints-against-a-white-background.html
# [16:58] <annevk> Seems arbitrary to recognize the Netherlands but not Montenegro
# [16:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: at some point I had rust-url use a string type that is guaranteed to b ASCII (like String is guaranteed to be UTF-8) but that was inconvenient for users so I went back to String. Still, ASCII strings make sense for the spec
# [16:59] <JoWie> maybe the regexp was written by someone from nl
# [16:59] <annevk> SimonSapin: users should not directly modify those slots though
# [17:00] <annevk> SimonSapin: oh, I guess you'd have to cast?
# [17:00] <SimonSapin> yeah, even accessing is annoying
# [17:00] <annevk> bah
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# [17:00] <SimonSapin> things like `if url.scheme == "http"` wouldn’t work
# [17:00] <annevk> yeah that sucks
# [17:01] <annevk> you need the cleverness of the ECMAScript engine I guess
# [17:01] <annevk> s/need/want/
# [17:01] <SimonSapin> maybe it wouldn’t be as bad with newer fancy language features, but I think it’s enough to document "these strings are always ASCII"
# [17:01] <annevk> that's pretty much what the spec says now
# [17:02] <annevk> A few of them could be restricted even more, but not worth it for now
# [17:02] <SimonSapin> the spec’s algorithms don’t have a type checker :)
# [17:02] <annevk> It's called SimonSapin|Sebmaster
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# [17:06] <SimonSapin> wanderview: spec writing actually looks like this: https://imgur.com/44qdOfz
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# [17:19] <Sebmaster> annevk: huh?
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# [17:19] <Sebmaster> what joke did i not get?
# [17:19] <annevk> Sebmaster: that you're the type checker of the spec
# [17:20] <Sebmaster> sweet :>
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# [19:51] <annevk> Hmm... If either A or B is X, but not both nor neither, terminate these steps.
# [19:51] <annevk> What would be a vastly better way of writing that out?
# [19:52] <annevk> Two steps? If A and B are both X, terminate. If A and B are both not X, terminate?
# [19:53] <caitp> that sounds like the opposite of the instructions you said above
# [19:53] <caitp> if A is X and A is not B, terminate these steps
# [19:54] <annevk> Hmm yeah, the second set of instructions are wrong.
# [19:54] <annevk> Sorry, X is a set
# [19:55] <annevk> They need to either both belong or both not belong
# [19:56] <terinjokes> If A and B are in the set X, terminate. If A nor B are in the set X, terminate.
# [19:56] <caitp> if A is in set X then if B is not in set X, terminate these steps; else if B is in set X, terminate these steps
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# [20:17] <TabAtkins> annevk: Use xor.
# [20:17] <annevk> TabAtkins: I thought of that, but ...
# [20:17] <TabAtkins> Or just use "but not both". No need for "nor neither", since the first part of the clause already requires at least one.
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# [20:18] <annevk> If A exclusive or B is a X, ...
# [20:18] <Domenic> I would do: If A is in X and B is not in X, terminate these steps. If A is not in X and B is in X, terminate these steps.
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> Or say "if exactly one of the following is true:" with a bulleted list after. (This is more useful for three conditions.)
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> annevk: "If a xor B is a X", with xor linked to a definition for clarity.
# [20:19] <annevk> Domenic: that's what the commit says
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# [20:19] <annevk> I guess I'll leave this as is, thanks for all the thoughts :-)
# [20:20] <caitp> there isn't a very high bar for readability in html
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# [20:45] <bholley_> Hixie: yt?
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# [22:56] <gde33> greetings logicians
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# [23:00] <gde33> I was curious if there have been proposals for html to get a nice standard outliner.
# [23:00] <gde33> something like <outline href="foo.opml">
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# [23:01] <gde33> http://dev.opml.org/spec2.html
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# [23:02] <gde33> can have a nice fold out tree with nested opml files and site feeds files
# [23:03] <Sample> I'm trying to discern the outline esp. regaring headers not rising above sections. Say you have <body><nav id="masthead"><h1>Navigation<h1><nav><h1>Rest of the document</h1> isn't the bodys outline children totally meaningless?
# [23:03] <Sample> the whole document I'd think should be under the body outline
# [23:04] <Sample> <body><nav> creates a totally meaningless body section right
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# [23:04] <Sample> it says "The body has a nav and only a nav. The rest of the document lies within other sections"
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# [23:05] <Sample> (second <nav> in my first example should be </nav> obviously)
# [23:05] <TabAtkins> No?
# [23:05] <Sample> <body><nav></nav><h1>
# [23:06] <Sample> Creates "Untitled BODY" > "NAV Title"
# [23:06] <caitp> html and xml differ in some ways
# [23:06] <Sample> followed by new outline section H1
# [23:07] <caitp> for better or worse
# [23:07] <Sample> Essentially the body's section extends only until the first Sectioning element
# [23:07] <Sample> that seems super odd
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> That's how you wrote it. You didn't give a heading to the body, so it gets an "implied heading".
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> Order matters in an outline.
# [23:10] <Sample> right
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> If you want the tnire body to have a heading (that is, the nav and all other sections are children of the heading'd section), put the heading first. That's what makes the most sense in any format.
# [23:10] <Sample> but is it correct to say the body's section (titled or not) extends only until the first sectioning element or <h1>
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> No. The body's section contains all of its children.
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> Including, in your example, the nav, and the <h1>'d section.
# [23:11] <Sample> hmm
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> Or, rather, <body> doesn't have a section in and of itself. It's a root for the section tree.
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# [23:12] <TabAtkins> The way the ouline tree is defined, the sectioning roots aren't sections themselves.
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# [23:15] <Sample> ah okay
# [23:16] <TabAtkins> In <body>foo<nav>bar</nav><h1>baz</h1>, "foo" gets an anonymous implied section for itself, first in the outline. Then <nav> happens, making a second section (explicit, but anonymous). Then <h1> happens, making a third section (implicit, but named). So three sibling sections.
# [23:16] <TabAtkins> (If I'm reading the algo correctly.)
# [23:16] <Sample> my confusion was the presumption that the first <h1> was defining a title to the body's section
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> Right, it's not, because there's no such thing as "the body's section".
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> Tho in practice quite often the <body> contains only a single section, and all other sections are nested within it.
# [23:17] <Sample> <body><nav></nav><h1></h1> confused me because I created this totally meaningless section to house just a NAV
# [23:18] <Sample> my <h1> was actually wrapped in a <main> which made semantic sense but I guess I should wrap it in a <section> to prevent this odd outline
# [23:19] <gde33> <nav> is just for screen readers?
# [23:19] <Sample> no?
# [23:19] <Sample> It's a sectioning element like section, article, aside
# [23:20] <gde33> ah ok
# [23:20] <Sample> nav article and aside are essentially <section> with more meaning
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# [23:21] <boogyman> which are all div with more meaning.
# [23:21] <Sample> except div isn't sectioning content
# [23:21] <Sample> and doesn't contribute to outlines
# [23:21] <Sample> so not relaly
# [23:21] <gde33> so much meaning one doesn't know what it all means
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# [23:25] <gde33> I was thinking, I want html documents in a folder but I want a menu on all pages that can be updated. Ideally it would also be cached. In stead of using javascript to document.write a few links to the page [pun mine] it would be cool to just have something like <nav src="/feed/">
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# [23:26] <gde33> and a nice fold out tree with an opml in it that contains other opml files and site feeds
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# [23:28] <gde33> a nice fold out tree without the need for complex css, images and javascript
# [23:28] <Sample> TabAtkins: well I've solved my problem by just replacing <main> with <section> so that the <h1> wasn't creating a meaningless outline within the body root
# [23:28] <Sample> kind of odd because I feel like main and section have totally different meanings but I felt like I had to since headings don't rise
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# [23:29] <Sample> also decided <article> shouldn't represent the <main> of the document but <section> could
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# [23:34] <Sample> e.g. <body><nav id="document-navigation"></nav><main><h1>This represents the main content but cannot be wrapped in main or it creates a meaningless section
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# [23:35] <boogyman> Sample: have you tried role="presentation"
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# [23:39] <Sample> boogyman: you don't understand the outline =)
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# [23:39] <boogyman> mayb
# [23:40] <Sample> it's funny the W3C version of the HTML spec totally contradicts itself regarding <main> but the WHATWG version doesn't
# [23:41] <boogyman> whatwg is the source of truth according to Hixie
# [23:41] <Sample> it actually made me curious to see a diff between the two
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# Session Close: Wed Jun 17 00:00:00 2015

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