/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-07-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 01 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:16] <caitp> so does anything actually use [ArrayClass] anymore, or would implementing that be basically dead code
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  10. # [00:25] <jsbell> Ms2ger: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/managereviewers?review=5428
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  12. # [00:31] <caitp> I guess gecko uses it for DOMRectList and some other things, so maybe it's not totally useless?
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  25. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  29. # [02:11] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  105. # [06:02] <Domenic> Anyone with latest Safari mind testing if Array.prototype.includes is present?
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  108. # [06:05] <Domenic> Also Uint8Array.prototype.includes
  109. # [06:10] <tantek> Safari 6.1.6 returns undefined for both
  110. # [06:11] <Domenic> Sorry, should have specified I was looking for Safari 8 and 9
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  128. # [07:27] <miketaylr> Domenic: neither in Safari 8.0.5
  129. # [07:27] <Domenic> I have reports of it being in 8.1
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  134. # [07:47] <terinjokes> Domenic: 8.1 here
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  136. # [07:49] <terinjokes> Array.prototype.includes 👍, Uint8Array.prototype.includes 👎
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  213. # [10:30] <annevk_> JakeA: I guess we could revisit the new Request() aspect of fetch(), if someone has the time, though that still leaves open what new Request() should do
  214. # [10:30] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  215. # [10:31] <JakeA> annevk: I'm not suggesting it's wrong, just couldn't work out why it was different
  216. # [10:32] <annevk> JakeA: so request has a pointer to a stream; then you create a new request that then gets to own that stream
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  218. # [10:32] <annevk> JakeA: the old request now no longer has a pointer to a stream, sure, the used flag can be set, but body would be null
  219. # [10:33] <annevk> JakeA: and then you get into the thing what null body should mean...
  220. # [10:34] <JakeA> annevk: ahh, I thought new Request(request) would create a new stream that read from the original request stream
  221. # [10:34] <JakeA> your way is more efficient
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  231. # [11:00] * Domenic has been reading too much C++... this is basically auto_ptr vs. shared_ptr
  232. # [11:01] <Domenic> I am not sure what the use case is for a "copy constructor" for Request anyway?
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  246. # [11:26] <annevk> Domenic: mostly to normalize the request
  247. # [11:26] <annevk> Domenic: while making sure we don't forget anything
  248. # [11:26] <Domenic> In what case can a Request be un-normalized?
  249. # [11:28] <annevk> Domenic: the one passed to FetchEvent
  250. # [11:28] <annevk> Domenic: (and anything passed to FetchEvent that's then passed to cache.put())
  251. # [11:28] <Domenic> annevk: how did the author generate an un-normalized Request to pass to FetchEvent though?
  252. # [11:29] <annevk> Domenic: the UA did
  253. # [11:29] <Domenic> annevk: why would the UA do something seemingly crazy like that?
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  255. # [11:29] <annevk> Domenic: it's not crazy, it reflects the settings for the document, but not all of those can be used for the service worker, so you need a reset of sorts before you go to the network
  256. # [11:30] <annevk> Domenic: the document/worker/shared worker*
  257. # [11:30] <Domenic> Hmm. I don't really understand, but I'll take your word for it...
  258. # [11:31] <annevk> Domenic: e.g. the client of a request passed to FetchEvent will be the document/worker
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  260. # [11:32] <annevk> Domenic: but the request resulting from fetch() should always have a client that is the global environment
  261. # [11:32] <annevk> Domenic: there's a ton of stuff like that
  262. # [11:32] <Domenic> hmm
  263. # [11:32] * annevk refers back to his Twitter rant about not enough people understanding what is going on
  264. # [11:33] <jochen__> hey annevk Domenic :)
  265. # [11:33] <jochen__> so what about the promise rejection events?
  266. # [11:33] <annevk> hahaha
  267. # [11:34] <jochen__> do you think mozilla will implement them?
  268. # [11:34] <annevk> Oh, wait, I thought you said cancelation
  269. # [11:34] <annevk> bz seemed open to implementing them
  270. # [11:34] <jochen__> would be cool to get some feedback on the current spec
  271. # [11:34] <annevk> I didn't really follow that thread admittedly
  272. # [11:34] <annevk> jochen__: pointer?
  273. # [11:34] <jochen__> impl. in blink is done % feedback from other vendors
  274. # [11:35] <jochen__> https://github.com/domenic/unhandled-rejections-browser-spec
  275. # [11:35] <jochen__> + the three pull requests from me :)
  276. # [11:35] <Domenic> jochen__: I need to update for https://github.com/domenic/unhandled-rejections-browser-spec/issues/2#issuecomment-113226244
  277. # [11:35] <Domenic> it seems like this is a new phase after microtasks
  278. # [11:35] <annevk> https://github.com/domenic/unhandled-rejections-browser-spec/issues/1 seems important
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  280. # [11:36] <Domenic> Sigh, I should do that too, it's just so much less exciting
  281. # [11:36] <jochen__> #1 is spec'd and implemented, so just close it?
  282. # [11:36] <Domenic> To be clear, it's about *Worker objects having .onunhandledrejection etc.
  283. # [11:36] <Domenic> No, #1 is not specced or implemented
  284. # [11:36] <Domenic> Worker global scopes have the events. Worker objects do not yet.
  285. # [11:37] <jochen__> ah
  286. # [11:37] <jochen__> not sure that's desirable
  287. # [11:37] <annevk> "Environment settings object seems to be a place to dump stuff?" sounds about right
  288. # [11:37] <Domenic> haha
  289. # [11:37] <jochen__> that would require dispatching the events cross process
  290. # [11:37] <Domenic> jochen__: yeah, it's kind of a "nobody has asked for this, but it's consistent with onerror" thing
  291. # [11:38] <annevk> Does Worker's onerror fire for all exceptions or just during compile?
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  293. # [11:39] <jochen__> i'd be surprised
  294. # [11:39] <Domenic> Good question... bz seemed to imply all errors, but worth checking...
  295. # [11:39] <annevk> I do agree that being consistent would be nice
  296. # [11:39] <jochen__> if it fired for all exceptions
  297. # [11:39] <annevk> And it doesn't seem super hard to post a message across the process...
  298. # [11:39] <jochen__> because out of process
  299. # [11:39] <jochen__> what would the message contain?
  300. # [11:39] <Domenic> Nah, all errors https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/workers.html#runtime-script-errors-2
  301. # [11:40] <Domenic> "For dedicated workers, if the error is still not handled afterwards, the user agent must queue a task to fire a trusted event that uses the ErrorEvent interface..."
  302. # [11:40] <Domenic> ohhhh interesting
  303. # [11:40] <Domenic> "and with the error attribute initialised to null"
  304. # [11:40] <annevk> jochen__: sorry, I meant internally the browser would use a message to transmit the error...
  305. # [11:40] <Domenic> instead of trying to structured clone the error object or something
  306. # [11:40] <Domenic> that is the problem in this case
  307. # [11:40] <annevk> there's no structured cloning of Error objects
  308. # [11:40] <Domenic> to get a coherent PromiseRejectionEvent you'd have to structured clone the { promise, error } object
  309. # [11:40] <Domenic> yeah
  310. # [11:40] <Domenic> so we could fire an event with no information...
  311. # [11:41] <jochen__> right
  312. # [11:42] <Domenic> The best we could do (messy) is switch from promise objects to promise IDs, and then also have a message field (optionally lineno/columno/filename).
  313. # [11:42] <Domenic> Seems not worth it
  314. # [11:42] <annevk> I think we should fix structured cloning of Error btw: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28389
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  316. # [11:43] <Domenic> s/of Error// ;)
  317. # [11:43] <annevk> maha
  318. # [11:43] <annevk> good luck with that
  319. # [11:43] <jochen__> there's no guarantee that the reason is a an error
  320. # [11:43] <jochen__> could be an array buffer
  321. # [11:43] <annevk> But yeah, promises seems harder
  322. # [11:43] <Domenic> ^ right, also that
  323. # [11:44] <annevk> true
  324. # [11:44] <jochen__> so: no events on *Worker objects :)
  325. # [11:44] <Domenic> We should get bz's buy in on that, but it sounds good to me...
  326. # [11:44] <jochen__> also, the event isn't really like the error event
  327. # [11:44] <annevk> I mean in the other case we also fire without any information...
  328. # [11:44] <Domenic> in the other case we have message/lineno/colno/filename
  329. # [11:44] <jochen__> that has a lot of special implications that are just not true for this event, i.e., it's own kind of event listener
  330. # [11:45] <jochen__> so what about this phase after microtask checkpoint thing
  331. # [11:45] <annevk> Domenic: you can just do null defaulting in the dictionary
  332. # [11:46] <annevk> Domenic: since the event cannot be constructed without the dictionary that's fine
  333. # [11:46] <Domenic> annevk: this null thing is quite confusing actually
  334. # [11:47] <Domenic> annevk: Firefox seems to give undefined for things HTML says are null
  335. # [11:47] <annevk> oh
  336. # [11:47] <Domenic> HTML is imprecise
  337. # [11:47] <annevk> You don't have to use null
  338. # [11:47] <Domenic> let me find what i am talking about
  339. # [11:47] <annevk> And you could require both a promise and a reason
  340. # [11:48] <annevk> not sure what "require any reason" would imply though, I guess best to leave that optional
  341. # [11:48] <annevk> (or even better, figure out what that means)
  342. # [11:52] <jochen__> Domenic: did you see my new pull requests btw?
  343. # [11:52] <Domenic> jochen__: yeah, I've been having fun with V8 extras today, will probably merge when I get home from work
  344. # [11:52] <Domenic> annevk: here is an example of null that confuses me. https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/comms.html#messageevent
  345. # [11:52] <Domenic> "The data attribute must return the value it was initialised to. When the object is created, this attribute must be initialised to null."
  346. # [11:52] <Domenic> But (new MessageEvent({})).data === undefined
  347. # [11:52] <annevk> Domenic: that's a bug
  348. # [11:52] <Domenic> Maybe because of how the constructor works? But teh constructor isn't specified outside of IDL as far as I can tell.
  349. # [11:53] <annevk> We have a generic description for event constructors: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#constructing-events
  350. # [11:53] <annevk> It needs some cleaning up though to work with internal slots and stuff, but IDL hasn't formalized those :-(
  351. # [11:53] <Domenic> Ah OK, that's nifty
  352. # [11:53] <Domenic> So that definition implies .data === undefined I think since {}.data === undefined
  353. # [11:54] <annevk> But note that if a dictionary member is undefined it's missing so it wouldn't be set by that constructor
  354. # [11:54] <Domenic> So I guess... null only matters for UA created MessageEvents that don't bother to set data?
  355. # [11:54] <Domenic> Hmm
  356. # [11:54] <annevk> So it would be null per the prose rules
  357. # [11:54] <Domenic> "for each dictionary member defined therein find the attribute on event whose identifier matches the key of the dictionary member and then set the attribute to the value of that dictionary member" I dunno
  358. # [11:54] <Domenic> "data" sounds like a dictionary member defined therein
  359. # [11:54] <annevk> But instead of relying on prose it's way better to just default to null in the dictionary for events that can't be created through document.createEvent()
  360. # [11:55] <Domenic> OK well defaulting to null seems like a good plan I'll file that on myself and fix later.
  361. # [11:55] <annevk> Domenic: I think IDL says that if a member is "undefined" it's not defined
  362. # [11:56] <Domenic> I read it as referring to the actual definition, i.e. `dictionary MessageEventInit { ... }`
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  364. # [11:56] <annevk> Nope, it refers to the argument passed
  365. # [11:57] <annevk> But it should use "present" and "not present" as terminology...
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  367. # [11:57] <Domenic> *shrug*
  368. # [11:57] <Domenic> bbiab, food time
  369. # [12:07] <jochen__> enjoy
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  380. # [12:50] <JakeA> wanderview: that bug report on Twitter… Firefox fails a CORS check for fetch('//other-origin/foo') from a page, even if the serviceworker returns a valid non-opaque response
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  386. # [13:09] <annevk> I wonder why Google Calendar can confirm via email that someone is attending but cannot actually show that information in the event... Maybe a bug specific for organizations using Google Calendar?
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  394. # [13:41] <annevk> Domenic: it seems weird that Streams makes many states unobservable
  395. # [13:41] <Domenic> annevk: streams are supposed to be largely stateless
  396. # [13:41] <annevk> Domenic: e.g. not being able to distinguish an empty stream from a non-read canceled stream is just... uh
  397. # [13:41] <Domenic> annevk: e.g. consider arrays, you don't care how the array became empty
  398. # [13:41] <Domenic> they're a data structure, not a record of what's happened in your system
  399. # [13:42] <annevk> Hmm, guess I have to think about it more
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  405. # [14:06] <annevk> Domenic: why is it a good thing that they don't keep track? Most asynchronous data structures seem to keep track in some way...
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  407. # [14:07] <annevk> And more specifically I'd think most stream implementations would keep track of such details
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  414. # [14:25] <Domenic> annevk: no async data structures I can think of keep track. Certainly not promises. No data structures in general, that I can think of. Why? Hmm...
  415. # [14:26] <annevk> Domenic: https://w3c.github.io/FileAPI/#dfn-Blob does
  416. # [14:26] <Domenic> annevk: no, it definitely doesn't. Example:
  417. # [14:26] <annevk> Domenic: isClosed?
  418. # [14:26] <Domenic> You can't distinguish between a blob with [1,2,3,4,5] created from scratch, versus a blob with [1,2,3,4,5] created from slicing a blob [1,...,1000]
  419. # [14:27] <Domenic> sure, but all closed blobs are the same
  420. # [14:27] <Domenic> nobody cares if the closed blob used to have 1000 bytes in it or 0
  421. # [14:27] <annevk> but they're distinguishable from empty blobs
  422. # [14:28] <Domenic> i mean, empty but not-yet-closed streams are distinguishable from empty-and-closed streams
  423. # [14:28] <Domenic> it's just that if you know there's no more data to put in the stream, there's not much point in keeping the stream unclosed.
  424. # [14:28] <annevk> I thought wanderview said that was not true
  425. # [14:28] <Domenic> just makes it annoying for anyone to figure out whether the stream is over yet
  426. # [14:28] <Domenic> same as blobs
  427. # [14:29] <Domenic> ehhhh it's borderline, it's a matter of whether .getReader().closed fulfills immediately or not
  428. # [14:30] <Domenic> we could add synchronous querying of the fact, but in general it's better to just write generic code that isn't so concerned with the state, and deals with the generic starts-readable-becomes-closed scenario, with starts-readable-immediately-becomes-closed as a special case.
  429. # [14:31] <annevk> I guess it's okay, it seems somewhat weird that if you cancel a stream it's suddenly treated as the empty string, but folks will deal
  430. # [14:32] <Domenic> remember you can only cancel if you "own" it (i.e. you can get a reader)
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  434. # [14:36] <annevk> So actually, is that not a problem for the synthetic case we've been discussing?
  435. # [14:36] <Domenic> hmm how so?
  436. # [14:37] <annevk> You can now empty any response from a server and the browser cannot tell whether the server returned the empty string or someone meddled with the stream
  437. # [14:38] <Domenic> @#&*()*$
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  440. # [14:38] <Domenic> OK. I will think about that tomorrow. That caught me by surprise a lot. Dammit.
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  443. # [14:41] <annevk> We should just have an isDirty flag, would work instead of offset too... :-P
  444. # [14:41] <Domenic> I mean, last time my mind was blown, I went from "no state!!" to "OK I guess offset is not the worst thing ever." Maybe tomorrow I'll come around to isDirty :(
  445. # [14:42] <Domenic> I guess a wrapper also would handle all of this
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  447. # [14:43] <annevk> Would that impact speed? But sure...
  448. # [14:43] <Domenic> But yhirano_ worries about performance, especially with piping
  449. # [14:43] <Domenic> yeah
  450. # [14:43] <annevk> Ideally what we expose here is the lowest of the lowest-level stuff, minus all the security bugs
  451. # [14:43] <Domenic> in theory it shouldn't but in the still-somewhat-speculative world of off-main-thread piping, it could. So far that world is pretty vague but we've tried to maintain enough flexibility.
  452. # [14:53] <Domenic> You can also do yhirano_'s preferred wrapper https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/pull/43#issuecomment-110968431 which should not impact perf
  453. # [14:53] <Domenic> i should sleep
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  490. # [16:36] <annevk> jochen__: Domenic: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1179244
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  576. # [16:54] <smaug____> annevk: so the promise event stuff will be in DOM or HTML spec?
  577. # [16:54] <smaug____> at least the DOM Event part of it?
  578. # [16:54] <annevk> it's described as patches to HTML and ECMAScript
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  581. # [16:56] <smaug____> another question, annevk did you figure out where and when the custom element meeting actually will be?
  582. # [16:57] <smaug____> (even if I had stronger opinions on custom elements, the timing is rather bad. July is the holiday month in Finland )
  583. # [16:57] <annevk> smaug____: not yet, the ball is with slightlyoff it seems
  584. # [16:58] <annevk> smaug____: it's very likely in Mountain View
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  586. # [16:58] <annevk> smaug____: but it could move to San Francisco I suppose
  587. # [16:58] <annevk> I'm staying in San Francisco since that's where the service worker meetup will be, I believe
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  590. # [16:59] <smaug____> oh, right, that one too
  591. # [17:00] <smaug____> waiting to see the time when SW is stable and implemented everywhere
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  594. # [17:00] <smaug____> maybe next year
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  609. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: the custom elements meeting is on July 21st, right? < smaug____
  610. # [17:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: yes
  611. # [17:31] <smaug____> yes, that one, but still unclear where
  612. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  615. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> I assumed it will be at Google in Mountain View where we had it last
  616. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> *where we had the Shadow DOM meeting
  617. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> but that room was too small
  618. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> and not arranged so well
  619. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> or I dunno, maybe that actually helped the meeting be more productive
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  625. # [17:49] <annevk> I hope there's not going to be a ton of people...
  626. # [17:52] <JoWie> no holographic telepresence at google yet?
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  637. # [18:23] <smaug____> annevk: MikeSmith: one thing which made the last meeting a bit hard was the proposals coming right before the meeting
  638. # [18:23] <smaug____> getting proposals a week earlier or so would have perhaps made the meeting even more productive
  639. # [18:24] <annevk> smaug____: agreed
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  641. # [18:25] <annevk> I've been trying to do my homework https://esdiscuss.org/topic/will-any-new-features-be-tied-to-constructors but so far that has made me skeptical of doing Custom Elements at all...
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  644. # [18:29] <smaug____> annevk: btw, I think cloning for printing isn't perhaps that interesting case, since we wouldn't probably run ctors, but try to clone whatever there is in shadow DOM or so, I think
  645. # [18:30] <smaug____> not sure though
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  647. # [18:30] <smaug____> in Gecko we don't run scripts in the clone document
  648. # [18:30] <smaug____> beforeprint may change the original document right before printing and then afterprint restore the state after cloning
  649. # [18:31] <smaug____> as of now
  650. # [18:31] <annevk> smaug____: if in order to create an element you need to run its constructor, cloning would need to do that too
  651. # [18:32] <smaug____> not sure about clone-for-printing
  652. # [18:32] <smaug____> that is rather odd case
  653. # [18:32] <annevk> bz likes to bring it up
  654. # [18:33] <annevk> but same goes for text selection and then copying things
  655. # [18:33] <smaug____> it just needs some state which can be printed
  656. # [18:33] <annevk> sure
  657. # [18:33] <smaug____> selection is perhaps more valid case, and just plain normal cloneNode()
  658. # [18:34] <annevk> cloneNode() invoking some JavaScript seems harmless
  659. # [18:34] <annevk> the parser invoking JavaScript is potentially problematic, since non-</script> points are not vetted
  660. # [18:35] <annevk> and then there's various algorithms in browsers that want to clone elements, such as printing and editing, that might not anticipate the world to change
  661. # [18:37] <smaug____> cloneNode(true): when should the ctors run?
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  665. # [18:42] <annevk> smaug____: prolly in tree order
  666. # [18:43] <annevk> philipj: richt: davve: is the plan to support Web Audio without <audio> / <video> indirection?
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  668. # [18:45] <smaug____> annevk: but during cloning or right after?
  669. # [18:46] <richt> annevk: yes.
  670. # [18:46] <annevk> smaug____: during, but I see how that would be problematic
  671. # [18:46] <annevk> richt: hey, I have some other questions I'd like to ask
  672. # [18:46] <annevk> mostly relaying from sicking
  673. # [18:46] <annevk> richt: can "content" playback tell apart the user pressing pause and transient-solo happening?
  674. # [18:47] <richt> annevk: not currently, no.
  675. # [18:47] <richt> annevk: deliberately so that "content" playback respects the transient-solo interruption.
  676. # [18:47] <annevk> richt: e.g. if the user presses pause we'd like for the app to indicate in its controls that the user can resume
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  678. # [18:47] <annevk> richt: but with transient-solo the app would want to disable its own controls
  679. # [18:48] <annevk> richt: it seems we have to enforce that interruption at a higher level either way
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  681. # [18:50] <annevk> richt: I filed https://github.com/whatwg/mediasession/issues/89 to track this
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  683. # [18:52] <richt> annevk: it's a good question. let's discuss further on gh.
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  743. # [21:08] <wanderview> JakeA: annevk: sanity check me please... a service worker script itself (an its importScripts()) should not be able to be intercepted, right?
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  745. # [21:12] <JakeA> wanderview: correct, they shouldn't
  746. # [21:12] <wanderview> JakeA: I'm glad you survived your train ride
  747. # [21:13] <wanderview> and thanks
  748. # [21:18] <JakeA> I only just survived. I'm all out of sweat that's for sure.
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  807. # [23:17] <Krinkle> JakeA: Is there a way to inspect CacheStorage/window.caches visually in Chrome? (akin to the other Resources)
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  811. # [23:23] <JakeA> Krinkle: yes, in the resources tab
  812. # [23:24] <Krinkle> Hm.. perhaps under a few layers of experimental options?
  813. # [23:24] <JakeA> Krinkle: might only be in beta/Canary
  814. # [23:24] * Krinkle tries Chromium instead of canary
  815. # [23:24] <Krinkle> Canary is my defualt
  816. # [23:24] <JakeA> Krinkle: but yeah, enable the devtools experiments flag
  817. # [23:25] <Krinkle> Ha, got it.
  818. # [23:25] <Krinkle> I had one random window open in Chrome stable
  819. # [23:25] <Krinkle> the one I happened to be using the console of
  820. # [23:25] <Krinkle> :)
  821. # [23:26] <Krinkle> Yeah,it's there in canary. great.
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  824. # [23:30] <Krinkle> JakeA: You mentioned there were security concerns about exposing caches on window. You reckon that may realistically result in it being withdrawn?
  825. # [23:30] <Krinkle> I'm seeing a benefit in being able to populate caches on the first hit when SW isn't active yet.
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  830. # [23:35] <JakeA> Krinkle: I think it'll stay. Worst comes to the worst, you can postmessage to your installing worker telling it to cache some stuff
  831. # [23:36] <Krinkle> JakeA: Yeah.
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  835. # [23:44] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  836. # [23:46] <Krinkle> While somewhat "uncool", we're also looking into trying without SW. Just being honest.
  837. # [23:46] <Krinkle> We don't need the 'fetch' event from SW as requests go via our loader function. SW also means we have to re-create large parts of the loader function to know which requests to ignore.
  838. # [23:46] <Krinkle> From window we can populate and access cache. This does necessitate indirect eval, but localStorage does that already now :-/
  839. # [23:46] <Krinkle> Without SW, it won't work offline. But, working offline won't work anyway until other infrastructure adapts. Getting SW right as the first puzzle piece for offline would be cool, but we're looking to get big performance gains first. Offline is not our team's objective :(
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  850. # Session Close: Thu Jul 02 00:00:00 2015

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