/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-07-03 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  44. # [01:43] <Mateon1> I was thinking a bit about the await and async keywords. Can you use them on getters and setters? What if you await a function that doesn't return a promise/thenable (is synchronous)?
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  58. # [02:40] <frewsxcv> can someone help me understand step 5 here? https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-childnode-before
  59. # [02:40] <frewsxcv> mainly, "and to parent’s first child otherwise"
  60. # [02:50] <frewsxcv> basically, what am i setting to parent's first child?
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  65. # [03:05] <Mateon1> frewsxcv: You set `viablePreviousSibling = (viablePreviousSibling != null ? viablePreviousSibling.nextSibling : parent.firstChild)`, from my understanding
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  68. # [03:06] <Mateon1> Maybe set node to what I said
  69. # [03:06] <Mateon1> I don't think so, though.
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  75. # [03:12] <frewsxcv> I read "If viablePreviousSibling is non-null, set it to viablePreviousSibling’s next sibling"
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  77. # [03:12] <frewsxcv> viablePreviousSibling.next_sibling = viablePreviousSibling
  78. # [03:12] <frewsxcv> but yours makes more sense
  79. # [03:13] <frewsxcv> since mine is basically a recursive assignment
  80. # [03:15] <frewsxcv> i suppose my thinking would have been worded "set it as"
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  83. # [03:20] <Domenic> JakeA: for podcasts, is the iTunes store not HTTPS yet?
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  148. # [07:01] <JakeA> Domenic: not sure about iTunes, but when we last checked feeds, very little https
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  157. # [07:40] <Domenic> JakeA: hmm I kind of thought feeds were all hosted by iTunes these days but now I am doubting myself, maybe iTunes is just a directory.
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  170. # [08:11] <JakeA> Domenic: since you're awake, I've made some decent progress on cancelable promises. The remaining sticking point is propagating cancellation through resolved values
  171. # [08:12] <JakeA> Domenic: oh, you replied on github, I should read that first
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  173. # [08:30] <Domenic> JakeA: not too much substance in my reply really.
  174. # [08:30] <Domenic> JakeA: feel free to open more issues or prod me more. Was excited to look at the commit logs.
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  176. # [08:38] <JakeA> Domenic: I'm on leave next week, so will write up remaining issues. Cheers!
  177. # [08:38] <Domenic> bah, you europeans and your vacationing
  178. # [08:38] <Domenic> meanwhile I end up in Japan during 4th of July so I miss those two days off
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  189. # [09:05] <annevk> JakeA: so... did you discuss network-spawned dialogs with sleevi?
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  192. # [09:07] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/49 spam?
  193. # [09:07] <JakeA> annevk: I chatted to him mostly about aborting, but he's in the UK today so we might be able to rope him in if he isn't busy with other stuff.
  194. # [09:09] <annevk> It seemed to me that his concerns around that were about dialogs mostly, but I might be mistaken
  195. # [09:10] <JakeA> annevk: he was also worried about aborting, because we had a security issue around that recently, but it's been patched
  196. # [09:11] <JakeA> (will post a ticket for that if I can find it and it's public)
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  198. # [09:12] <JakeA> annevk: as for dialogs, he just wants to know where to surface http auth etc if the request comes from a SW
  199. # [09:14] <annevk> JakeA: if it's not public, can you copy me? Might be helpful guidance in our vetting work
  200. # [09:14] <annevk> JakeA: right, so you know fetch() disables HTTP auth?
  201. # [09:15] <JakeA> annevk: I didn't. Didn't XHR allow it?
  202. # [09:16] <annevk> JakeA: sure, but XHR did lots of silly things, we wanted to make a better XHR, one of the things includes not showing UI by the browser
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  204. # [09:17] <annevk> (and XHR is a bit more complicated than just allow, e.g. cross-origin or with supplied credentials it would not)
  205. # [09:19] <JakeA> annevk: I'm guessing there's nothing in a request object that can change that? So a SW that does event.respondWith(fetch(event.request)) would break
  206. # [09:19] <annevk> right
  207. # [09:19] <annevk> It also breaks referrer at the moment, and maybe some other things
  208. # [09:19] <annevk> And redirects as we established
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  210. # [09:21] <annevk> A thing that's not addressed currently is TLS client auth
  211. # [09:22] <annevk> Which I think ideally would also not show UI, but according to sleevi that might break some use cases. However, I wonder if we can provide a programmatic API perhaps it might be okay...
  212. # [09:23] <JakeA> annevk: sorry for slow replies, train is crawling slowly towards London through various connectivity black holes
  213. # [09:24] <JakeA> annevk: is the UI case where the browser asks the user to select a cert?
  214. # [09:24] <annevk> Ah okay, I can do something else for a bit first
  215. # [09:24] <annevk> Yes
  216. # [09:24] <annevk> I think that's basically it, I don't fully understand the protocol involved I'm afraid or where it is defined
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  219. # [09:27] <JakeA> annevk: I'll see what I can dig up and report back in 30 mins. I'd like to check we're doing the right thing with HTTP auth. It could just be that more of a case for event.default
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  227. # [09:31] <annevk> Note that what made event.default() notoriously hard was the idea of it handing back something to the service worker. Which makes it serve two clients at once.
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  247. # [10:02] <annevk> JakeA: what prompted the client.fetch() idea?
  248. # [10:03] <annevk> JakeA: and what does it mean?
  249. # [10:03] <JakeA> annevk: I was thinking of how a request could be associated with a window client, so there was a place to show any required UI
  250. # [10:04] <JakeA> and if there was no associated window client, and a UI was required, the request would fail
  251. # [10:04] <JakeA> so event.client.fetch(event.request) could show cert or http auth UI in the client, if the client was a window
  252. # [10:05] <JakeA> It'd be easier if the client was part of the request, but that's tricky when it comes to caching
  253. # [10:06] <annevk> This seems tricky because it's not clear who is initiating the fetch and what it means in terms of referrer etc.
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  255. # [10:08] <annevk> Hmm
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  257. # [10:08] <JakeA> annevk: isn't referrer set when the request is constructed?
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  259. # [10:08] <JakeA> ahh ok, that happens later
  260. # [10:09] <annevk> JakeA: also, request is constructed when fetch() is invoked
  261. # [10:09] <annevk> JakeA: referrer is one of the things that's not maintained at the moment
  262. # [10:10] <annevk> JakeA: we'd basically have to allow referrer to be set to any same-origin URL and nobody has okayed that idea yet that I know
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  264. # [10:11] <annevk> (Presumably because nobody else has been thinking about referrer in the context of service workers...)
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  266. # [10:13] <JakeA> annevk: if an element makes a request for an image, a request is made with the css url as referrer. Is that not reflected in event.request?
  267. # [10:14] <annevk> JakeA: I can't quite parse that statement
  268. # [10:14] <JakeA> yeah that was bad, let me try again
  269. # [10:14] <annevk> JakeA: but, event.request does reflect the referrer, it is however not passed on to fetch() in anyway, fetch() uses the referrer from the environment
  270. # [10:15] <annevk> any way*?
  271. # [10:18] <JakeA> annevk: ahh ok, so could we allow fetch to use the request's referrer, but put restrictions on when referrer can be set in manually constructed requests?
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  273. # [10:21] <annevk> JakeA: my idea was that we'd allow referrer to be set to any same-origin URL
  274. # [10:22] <annevk> JakeA: if you can take referrer from a Request object you can basically get any same-origin URL anyway
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  276. # [10:26] <JakeA> annevk: I guess there isn't the concept of a request having headers but you can't see them with JS?
  277. # [10:27] <annevk> JakeA: I think all forbidden headers are set post-service-workers in the network layer
  278. # [10:28] <annevk> JakeA: what are you thinking of?
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  281. # [10:33] <JakeA> annevk: "if you can take referrer from a Request object you can basically get any same-origin URL anyway" - so if my page's CSS, on another origin, makes a request for a background image, I can't see the referrer?
  282. # [10:33] <annevk> JakeA: s/see/set/?
  283. # [10:34] <JakeA> annevk: see, as in event.request in the SW
  284. # [10:35] <JakeA> if I intercept the request for my CSS
  285. # [10:35] <JakeA> I should just test it…
  286. # [10:35] <annevk> Cross-origin CSS seems like a major security hole...
  287. # [10:35] <annevk> If A embeds cross-origin CSS B, it should not be able to tell what B is fetching...
  288. # [10:36] <annevk> That violates the same-origin policy...
  289. # [10:36] <annevk> Did we really not think of this?
  290. # [10:36] <JakeA> annevk: you can get that information from computed styles
  291. # [10:36] <annevk> That is not at all the same
  292. # [10:36] <annevk> Not by a long shot
  293. # [10:37] <JakeA> no?
  294. # [10:37] <annevk> There's a reason cross-origin CSSOM requires CORS
  295. # [10:37] <annevk> No
  296. # [10:37] <JakeA> annevk: what does it expose?
  297. # [10:38] <annevk> E.g. if that stylesheet uses credentials or relies on firewall IP-based authentication it could expose tokens in images it fetches
  298. # [10:39] <JakeA> annevk: that wouldn't show up in computed styles?
  299. # [10:39] <annevk> With getComputedStyle you need to know where to look
  300. # [10:40] <annevk> And getComputedStyle wouldn't e.g. work with tokens in CSS subresources
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  302. # [10:40] <JakeA> annevk: by subresources you mean @import?
  303. # [10:40] <annevk> Yeah
  304. # [10:41] * JakeA goes to check what resource timing API does here
  305. # [10:43] <annevk> Not sure that group has done their vetting carefully
  306. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> Hah
  307. # [10:45] <annevk> TabAtkins: thanks, seems like it's breaking a great number of specifications, e.g. can't update Notifications API either
  308. # [10:48] <JakeA> annevk: so resource timing does expose requests from cross-origin CSS
  309. # [10:48] <annevk> o_O
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  311. # [10:49] <JakeA> lemmie check it's not just Chrome…
  312. # [10:50] <JakeA> yeah, Firefox exposes it too
  313. # [10:50] <JakeA> http://jakearchibald.com/ & performance.getEntriesByType('resource').map(obj => obj.name)
  314. # [10:51] <annevk> https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/719
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  317. # [10:55] <annevk> JakeA: so FWIW, if we can't go the API route for TLS client auth we need something like passing a reference to a client to fetch()
  318. # [10:55] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps each worker (including service workers) should simply hold a reference to the "prominent browsing context" (or null) and pass that along
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  320. # [10:57] <annevk> JakeA: and I guess if we do that, we'd solve the "no-cors" http thing by banning http URLs if that's null (and global's origin is secure, to not affect dedicated/shared workers)
  321. # [10:58] <JakeA> annevk: just before we move on from the CSS thing… the CSS make the request (bg img, @import) in the context of the page (it isn't its own client), so isn't it reasonable for that to be visible to the page owner? What about a cross-origin script doing new Image(url)?
  322. # [10:58] <annevk> JakeA: and perhaps that check should be in mixed content even, but I'll file an issue against Fetch for now, depending on that HTTP auth issue
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  324. # [11:01] <annevk> JakeA: a cross-origin script cannot be sure that the things it invokes have not been meddled with
  325. # [11:05] <JakeA> Ouch, pretty bad Chrome bug http://musalbas.github.io/address-spoofing-poc/
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  328. # [11:08] <JakeA> actually you can't interact with the page so it's not as bad as I thought
  329. # [11:08] <JakeA> but still
  330. # [11:09] <JakeA> annevk: "prominent browsing context" would be either the focused window, a visible window, any window, or null? (in that order of preference?)
  331. # [11:10] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, something like that I guess
  332. # [11:11] <JakeA> I suppose as I developer I could potentially predict the outcome by looking at clients.matchAll
  333. # [11:11] <annevk> JakeA: alternatively we could give the developer control over the window
  334. # [11:15] <JakeA> annevk: that's how I came to client.fetch
  335. # [11:16] <annevk> JakeA: I don't think client.fetch makes sense since you'd need to branch your code depending on what you anticipate the response will be
  336. # [11:17] <annevk> JakeA: and that API suggests other things to me, like the client will actually run the fetch, meaning it would go through the service worker again, or some such
  337. # [11:17] <JakeA> annevk: it'd be 'neater' if it were part of the request. We've gone back & forward on where "client" sits. Because of caching it feels like it shouldn't be part of the request object
  338. # [11:18] <JakeA> annevk: true, I thought "client isn't part of the storable request, but it's part of the execution of the request", which is when I tried to build the association between the client & the fetching
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  340. # [11:19] <JakeA> annevk: here's that header truncation issue https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=244260
  341. # [11:19] <annevk> Depending on the outcome of that issue and how flexible this needs to be, setting a browsing context might not even be exposed...
  342. # [11:23] <JakeA> annevk: which issue?
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  344. # [11:23] <annevk> 119
  345. # [11:24] <JakeA> ahh gotcha
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  348. # [11:28] <JakeA> annevk: I think your "any origin window" idea is good enough. Will write up the options on that ticket
  349. # [11:28] <JakeA> will get someone to look at that CSS CORS issue too
  350. # [11:29] <annevk> We still need to figure out how to update Fetch et al to catch those network-generated dialogs and surface them
  351. # [11:29] <annevk> But baby steps, I guess
  352. # [11:29] <annevk> I would prefer though that fetch() by default generates no UI still...
  353. # [11:29] <annevk> And ideally it never does and if you rely on HTTP auth you just implement it yourself (you can with fetch())
  354. # [11:30] <annevk> And if you rely on TLS client auth we need to think of something new... But maybe that one isn't feasible
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  357. # [11:45] <annevk> JakeA: another big problem with SW is that we haven't rewritten all the features that should use Fetch, but currently invoke something else
  358. # [11:46] <annevk> JakeA: this makes it very unclear how they should work and handle certain types of responses
  359. # [11:46] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, there's some translation going on, so potentially wrong assumptions made
  360. # [11:47] <annevk> Well and most specs still assume the authority is with the request, whereas we shifted it to be on the response
  361. # [11:47] <annevk> Which is a pretty big shift
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  388. # [12:40] <annevk> jgraham: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4453
  389. # [12:40] <annevk> hallvors: ^^
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  417. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> Is there supposed to be a difference between "Let source be the browsing context that contains the Document object with which subject in question is associated." and "let target be the browsing context that subject itself is in." in https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/semantics.html#following-hyperlinks-2 ?
  418. # [14:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: I think the answer is no
  419. # [14:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: it would be clearer if target were set to source
  420. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  423. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> I'd suggest that, but without an editor...
  424. # [14:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: there's a bunch of prose problems there
  425. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> Unsurprisingly :)
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  429. # [14:36] <annevk> Ms2ger: could at least file a bug
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  432. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> Is there a much content relying on application/xhtml+xml ? (Should Servo try to support it at all?)
  433. # [14:47] <annevk> It's not exactly hard, is it?
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  435. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> We don't support XML yet :)
  436. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> But there's an XML5 parser now
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  438. # [14:51] <annevk> Isn't that enough?
  439. # [14:51] <gsnedders> I wonder how much XML5 will break?
  440. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> Glue :)
  441. # [14:51] <annevk> It shouldn't really break anything, but who knows
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  444. # [14:52] <SimonSapin> my point is that while we may wanna try XML5 for SVG and some other things that require an XML parser, maybe we should still not support XHTML
  445. # [14:53] <annevk> If you're going to have an XML parser, you should just parse everything +xml with it and not make exclusions
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  447. # [14:55] <SimonSapin> that’s… RFC 3023 ?
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  450. # [14:58] <annevk> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7303 these days
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  513. # [16:25] <annevk> JakeA: so the truncation issue sleevi mentioned is actually bigger when we introduce streams / cancel
  514. # [16:26] <annevk> JakeA: it puts an attacker in control of the contents of "no-cors" resources
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  516. # [16:26] <annevk> JakeA: which is problematic
  517. # [16:27] <annevk> Well, maybe stream-wise those will be opaque so you don't get a stream... But there might be some other angle... But cancelation-wise the concerns still apply I think...
  518. # [16:29] <JakeA> annevk: yeah. That specific issue was down to Chrome not parsing headers properly, but maybe there are other security-sensitive formats that don't have a delimiter?
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  520. # [16:31] <JakeA> annevk: anything you can do with .cancel() could happen by going offline. So if it's a security issue it's already a security issue, just whether it happens accidentally or deliberately.
  521. # [16:32] <annevk> JakeA: well, that seems somewhat absurd
  522. # [16:33] <annevk> JakeA: an attacker has control over cancel() and can easily try it many times without requiring the user to do anything special
  523. # [16:36] <JakeA> annevk: agreed. It makes the highly unlikely quite possible, but it doesn't make the impossible possible.
  524. # [16:37] <annevk> I guess it also depends on how we handle the cancelation in Fetch
  525. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: Looking into the issue today, but remember you can always force-generate.
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  528. # [16:52] <gsnedders> "input[type=hidden i]" — am I missing something? what's that i for?
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  532. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> Marks the value as matching CI
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  540. # [17:11] <annevk> ASCII case-insensitive*
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  564. # [17:47] <JakeA> Domenic: I've made a couple of mistakes in my latest cancelable promise commits, so don't worry about all the breakages. Will fix.
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  576. # [18:12] <annevk> jochen__: any ETA on working on Referrer again?
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  582. # [18:32] <BigPants> I don't mind standing every dayyyyyy
  583. # [18:32] <BigPants> out on your corner in the pouring raaaaain
  584. # [18:32] <BigPants> look for the girl with the broken smile
  585. # [18:33] <BigPants> ask her if she wants to a whiiiile
  586. # [18:33] <BigPants> AND SHE WIIIIILL BE LOOOOOOOVED
  587. # [18:34] <BigPants> Good channel for that. Totally meant it for another :P
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  595. # [18:51] <caitp> well friday is as good a day as any for irc karaoke
  596. # [18:52] <BigPants> I should definitely have picked a cooler song to accidentally belt out though
  597. # [18:52] <caitp> the temptations is always a good pick
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  607. # [19:24] <jochen__> annevk: i'm working on it non-stop!
  608. # [19:24] <jochen__> annevk: what's up with it?
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  688. # [22:49] <cvrebert> Can someone please remove X-UA-Compatible from https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/PragmaExtensions ? It became an official pragma: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/semantics.html#attr-meta-http-equiv-x-ua-compatible
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  733. # Session Close: Sat Jul 04 00:00:00 2015

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