/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-07-13 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Jul 13 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [03:33] <Domenic> annevk: I sometimes use the assign feature as a sort of needsinfo, but it's meh
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# [04:36] <MikeSmith> botie, inform beverloo A comment from you at https://github.com/whatwg/notifications/issues/46 would be welcome.
# [04:36] <botie> will do
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# [08:19] <annevk> Hixie: can we raise the cc limit for the WHATWG list?
# [08:19] <annevk> Hixie: I keep hitting the limit
# [08:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: did you see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2015Jul/0099.html (Testing W3C's HTTPS setup)?
# [08:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: did
# [08:23] <MikeSmith> k
# [08:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: but didn't really want to modify my setup
# [08:23] <MikeSmith> ah OK
# [08:24] <MikeSmith> well I've been trying it for a while and found a few problems (mostly just redirect loops) and systeam has fixed them all quickly
# [08:24] <MikeSmith> so, progress
# [08:26] <MikeSmith> but I've not been checking very carefully yet for mixed-content problems (to see if the Content-Security-Policy: upgrade-insecure-requests header is working as expected)
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# [08:34] <annevk> That only works in Chrome I think
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# [11:02] <annevk> philipj++ for editing help with Fullscreen
# [11:02] <annevk> "fullscreen element" as concept refactoring is simplifying a ton of stuff
# [11:02] <philipj> :)
# [11:02] <philipj> let me know when it's settled down and I'll take another pass
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# [11:08] <annevk> philipj: do you know why collect ancestors looks top layers with only a single element?
# [11:09] <annevk> philipj: should that also change to just looking for ancestor documents with a non-null fullscreen element?
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# [11:17] <philipj> annevk: yeah, I'm not sure why it's like that, what did it say before the top layer refactoring?
# [11:18] <annevk> philipj: before it says fullscreen element stack with one element
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# [11:18] <philipj> oh, so I suppose the equivalent would be documents where the top layer stack has only on element with the fullscreen flag?
# [11:18] <annevk> philipj: the top layer thing made it worse, it should just say single element that has its fullscreen flag set I suppose
# [11:18] <annevk> philipj: yeah, changing it to that
# [11:19] <philipj> if I'm not mistaken, this is all about exiting multiple levels of iframes when appropriate
# [11:19] <annevk> philipj: yeah, was just thinking that too
# [11:19] <annevk> ta
# [11:19] <philipj> np
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# [11:34] <philipj> annevk: the note "HTML defines the exact conditions under which the fullscreen enabled flag ..." should probably be moved up one step
# [11:36] <annevk> yes
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# [12:13] <Ms2ger> !summon TabAtkins
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# [12:52] <philipj> annevk: I've gone through the whole diff of recent changes and everything looks good now except for the open issues
# [12:53] <philipj> probably would find more bugs if implementing though :)
# [12:55] <Ms2ger> So go forth and implement :)
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# [13:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: CSP upgrade-insecure-requests just landed in gecko trunk, right?
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# [14:27] <botie> beverloo, at 2015-07-13 02:36 UTC, MikeSmith said: A comment from you at https://github.com/whatwg/notifications/issues/46 would be welcome.
# [14:27] <MikeSmith> beverloo: I see you already commented there in the time since I left that message for you originally
# [14:30] <beverloo> MikeSmith, no problem :) Thanks for pinging!
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# [14:33] <MikeSmith> beverloo: thanks for you comments and info
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# Session Close: Mon Jul 13 15:09:58 2015
#
# Session Start: Mon Jul 13 15:09:58 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [15:12] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [15:12] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
# [15:12] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, a question about selectors, if you have a moment
# [15:13] <TabAtkins> That's why I ponged
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# [15:14] <Ms2ger> Should :first-child etc. match an element a. without a parent node; b. whose parent is a Document; c. whose parent is a DocumentFragment; d. whose parent is an Element
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# [15:14] <Ms2ger> d. is obviously "yes", but I have no idea about the others
# [15:15] <Ms2ger> Especially since selectors-3 and -4 seem to disagree
# [15:15] <TabAtkins> S4 has the right answer. Let me review real quick.
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# [15:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, :first-child/etc only care about relative position among siblings. Parent (or lack of) doesn't matter.
# [15:19] <Ms2ger> How would you feel about adding a note near the definition or to the Changes section to point out the change is intentional?
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# [15:19] <TabAtkins> That's fine with me. Send email, as I won't be into the office for several hours yet?
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# [15:21] <Ms2ger> Sure
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# [15:38] <Ms2ger> Oh, I was going to cc the list
# [15:38] <Ms2ger> Eh
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# [16:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems like it, got an email earlier anyway
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# [16:51] <annevk> JakeA: regarding no-cors CSS, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1180145#c3 is our current thinking
# [16:51] <annevk> JakeA: well, I guess it's mine, but I think the security people agree
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# [17:02] <webzen> hi
# [17:03] <webzen> Can anyone give me some info on how es6 modules will be built and assembled on es6 browsers without using browserify or such ?
# [17:04] <webzen> high level
# [17:05] <annevk> webzen: there's an idea for <script type=module src=module.js>
# [17:05] <annevk> webzen: https://whatwg.github.io/loader/ and its repo have some of the details for an even bigger plan
# [17:06] <webzen> i tried to read that already but it was too low level. So with main.js containing import module1 from "./imports/module1";
# [17:06] <webzen> how would the client get to the files on the server
# [17:06] <webzen> to traverse the tree
# [17:06] <webzen> of dependencies
# [17:07] <annevk> client being?
# [17:07] <ondras> well by using a regular http request that is normally used to fetch scripts
# [17:07] <webzen> client being a es6 browser in the future. and i start with <script src="build/js/main.js"></script>
# [17:08] <webzen> but main.js only has import module1 from "./imports/module1";
# [17:08] <ondras> right. its dependencies will be fetched, analyzed, their dependencies fetched, analyzed, ....
# [17:08] <ondras> and once the whole tree is statically analyzed, the code is finally run
# [17:08] <annevk> it's not exactly defined how the translation happens and whether from "..." is a URL or some identifier
# [17:08] <webzen> so the es6 browsers will make more requests ?
# [17:08] <webzen> currently i have all my js in one file to reduce requests
# [17:08] <ondras> if you serve your code in X files, X requests will be made
# [17:09] <webzen> won't that be expensive ?
# [17:09] <annevk> yeah, but not with HTTP/2
# [17:09] <ondras> also you can pack your multiple ES6 modules into one
# [17:09] <annevk> ondras: not anymore
# [17:09] <ondras> annevk: I mean the System.register API
# [17:09] <annevk> ondras: there's no syntax for inline modules
# [17:09] <ondras> babel --modules=system or somth
# [17:09] <webzen> ondras: i'm saying without babel
# [17:10] <ondras> okay
# [17:10] <webzen> in es6 browsers
# [17:10] <ondras> http2 then
# [17:10] <ondras> or multiple requests
# [17:10] <webzen> is HTTP/2 in current browsers or is that future thing
# [17:11] <ondras> http://caniuse.com/#feat=http2
# [17:11] <webzen> so it's already in the current browsers
# [17:13] <webzen> annevk: so are there any es6 browsers with this loader yet ?
# [17:13] <webzen> thanks ondras
# [17:13] <annevk> nope
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# [17:14] <annevk> I've been thinking about poking at it, but haven't made the time yet
# [17:14] <webzen> so currently i'm using babel but in the future i'll just be able to use the es6 browsers and they will handle assembling the modules
# [17:14] <webzen> ?
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# [17:15] <webzen> or is my thinking wrong
# [17:15] <annevk> sounds about right, you might need some tweaks here and there I guess, depends a bit on the final details
# [17:15] <webzen> i just don't want to write code that will fail in the future
# [17:16] <webzen> since i'm going to be writing es6 code
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# [17:20] <webzen> so to be clear, in the future es6 browsers they will be able to run the dependency from the client side by making multiple calls to build the file before running it yes ?
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# [17:26] <annevk> TabAtkins: can you roll https://github.com/plinss/widlparser/commit/43f0d6be64741642dd8ea9f6847dfec0ad3afb14 into bikeshed?
# [17:28] <webzen> annevk: can you please affirm or correct my statement please ?
# [17:28] <annevk> webzen: it's not entirely clear to me what that statement means
# [17:28] <webzen> meaning i won't need babel or such
# [17:29] <annevk> webzen: well yes, that's the intent
# [17:29] <webzen> the browsers will handle the module assembling
# [17:29] <annevk> yup
# [17:29] <webzen> ok thanks so much
# [17:29] <webzen> that's very helpful
# [17:29] <annevk> and in some future future the module can be some WebAssembly code
# [17:29] <webzen> i'll be playing guitar then :-)
# [17:30] <webzen> WebAssembly is a thing ?
# [17:30] <annevk> it's a thing: https://github.com/WebAssembly
# [17:30] <webzen> oh dear
# [17:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: Will do so shortly.
# [17:31] <webzen> so i'll be able to start over with WebAssembly and forget all I know :-)
# [17:33] <webzen> thanks again !
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# [17:34] <TabAtkins> Well, you'll be able to start over with whatever languages compile into WebAssembly. You won't write it directly, any more than you write asm.JS directly.
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# [17:36] <caitp> so, is wasm supposed to have enough type info and static knowledge of the program available to eg. bypass expensive optimization processes at runtime?
# [17:36] <caitp> it would be pretty cool if it just plugged into ionmonkey/tf right away
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# [17:37] <caitp> since i guess you'd hope clang would do the LICM and constant folding and operator reduction and etc
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# [17:38] <JakeA> annevk: is your analysis at https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/66#issuecomment-118638144 how it works now, or how a solution could work
# [17:38] <JakeA> annevk: is your analysis at https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/66#issuecomment-118638144 how it works now, or how a solution could work?
# [17:38] <annevk> caitp: we're planning on making use of IDL to bypass a bunch of IDL stuff
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# [17:39] <annevk> JakeA: 'we should just expose it as a "redirect" (new type of response, identical to opaque except for its type and exposure of url as that is identical to the request url)' and what follows is a proposal
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# [17:42] <JakeA> (sorry for the repeated message, got caught in the netsplit)
# [17:42] <JakeA> annevk: "If you then get back an opaque response you know that a redirect happened." - that's not what happens now though
# [17:43] <JakeA> You get a non-opaque response back for the final non-redirect resource
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# [17:43] <JakeA> Since fetch(event.request) changes the mode of the request
# [17:46] <annevk> JakeA: no it doesn't?
# [17:47] <JakeA> annevk: hmm, I'm getting confused then https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#request-class "If request's redirect mode is "manual", set it to "follow"."
# [17:47] <annevk> JakeA: oh, changes the redirect mode?
# [17:47] <annevk> JakeA: right, we'd stop doing that
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# [17:48] <JakeA> annevk: ah, yes, sorry wasn't specific enough. Yeah, that's why I was asking if that line was you clarifying the current behaviour or a proposed behaviour. It's the latter, got it
# [17:48] <annevk> it's the proposed behavior for redirect mode "manual", still not super helpful since you don't actually know where the redirect will go, but at least a little bit
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# [18:10] <TabAtkins> caitp: wasm starts with asm.js, basically, just in a binary format. It'll grow optimizations and features as it goes.
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# [18:26] <annevk_> TabAtkins: that bug is one of the reasons for migrating to GitHub, would be hard to WONTFIX
# [18:26] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> Why is it hard?
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# [18:27] <annevk> TabAtkins: it'll just get reopened
# [18:27] <annevk> TabAtkins: a11y concern does seem like something that needs addressing one way or another
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> You can just... close it again. What's special about Bugzilla that makes it reopenable?
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, have an open bug on Bikeshed for that. Just need to modify the CSSWG and WHATWG stylesheets to handle it.
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> (So they dont' double-generate "Warning", etc.
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> )
# [18:29] <annevk> TabAtkins: feel free to WONTFIX and see what happens
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# [18:29] <TabAtkins> I'm not responsibel for the spec, so shrug.
# [18:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: I wonder who they think will fix that bug anyway, with berjon leaving the W3C
# [18:30] <annevk> And also, berjon made a vague promise of only subsetting, not forking
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> Worth the paper it wasn't printed on, obvs.
# [18:33] <jgraham> Oh did darobin leave?
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# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Did, or will soon, I forget. Working... I forget where.
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Somewhere cool.
# [18:33] <annevk> NYC
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, def NY, just forget what company.
# [18:35] <annevk> https://twitter.com/robinberjon/status/616565633539571712
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# [18:38] <jgraham> Presumably the Watson and Crick photo is an example of using someone else's data to make your discovery ;)
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# [18:39] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Context?
# [18:39] <botie> Context is https://github.com/validator/validator/issues/61
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# [18:39] <TabAtkins> That's... incorrect, botie.
# [18:39] <botie> TabAtkins: i'm not following you...
# [18:40] <jgraham> TabAtkins: http://www.standardanalytics.io/
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> ah
# [18:41] <Ms2ger> .io, of course
# [18:46] <annevk> "JSON-LD and RDFa"
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# [19:58] <izhak> Hi, guys! How do I import svg file with filters into html for use in css ?
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# [20:05] <TabAtkins> izhak: Just point to them with url() as usual.
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> They're just images.
# [20:06] <izhak> TabAtkins: I'm trying this: filter: url(./filters.svg#mtshadow);
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> Oh, you're trying to get an SVG *filter* into CSS.
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> Still, that's supposed to work, per spec.
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/FXTF/filters-1/#typedef-url
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# [20:08] <izhak> TabAtkins: yes. And currently I'm working with a local files (file:///). In firefox 39 when I click to that url in firebugs css console, it opens the svg file with filters. But filters refuse to apply...
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# [20:09] <TabAtkins> Hm, per caniuse.com, that should work.
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> It's possible you need to flip the layout.css.filters.enabled flag?
# [20:11] <izhak> Actually svg filters work when I open for example this: http://bl.ocks.org/cpbotha/5200394
# [20:13] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's creating an inline SVG element.
# [20:14] <wanderview> JakeA: if disk space is running low and an origin has its storage purged... is there anything in SW spec or chrome impl to run the SW install event again?
# [20:14] <izhak> TabAtkins: What I do is copy the external html for svg tag in this example (using firebug), paste it to filters.svg and then refer to it as I showed.
# [20:15] <izhak> I apply it to rect element, and it just disappears.
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# [20:16] <TabAtkins> If you view the filters.svg file, do you see the rect with shadows?
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# [20:17] <izhak> oops.. firefox opens it like a xml file.. looks like I forgot to add xmlns and version
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# [20:18] <TabAtkins> You don't need version, just xmlns
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> (We're hoping to remove that requirement.)
# [20:18] <tantek> xmlns lol
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> tantek: indeed
# [20:19] <izhak> TabAtkins: great it works now, thank you:)
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# [20:19] <TabAtkins> np
# [20:23] <JakeA> wanderview: I don't think so, wouldn't that just fill up space again?
# [20:24] <wanderview> JakeA: the problem is if the SW thinks its still installed... but its Cache was deleted out from under it... it may not try to re-populate without another install event
# [20:24] <wanderview> this may be a gecko problem, though
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# [20:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm confused about your questions about "the font API" and "such a CSS resource". Are you under the impression that Font Loading does something with CSS files?
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# [20:34] <annevk> TabAtkins: is that not where it gets the FontFace stuff from?
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# [20:34] <TabAtkins> Stylesheets create FontFace objects, yeah.
# [20:34] <annevk> right, and no-cors stylesheets shouldn't have their FontFace objects exposed, most likely
# [20:35] <TabAtkins> Ah... Hm.
# [20:35] <annevk> because that violates SOP
# [20:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I suppose so. I'll open a thread on www-style notifying people, and make the change.
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# [20:42] <TabAtkins> What's the right term to link for "CORS-enabled"?
# [20:43] <Krinkle> JakeA: Do you know what the expected behaviour is with SW caching with regards to quota? See my comment at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T66721#1350485 for context.
# [20:44] <JakeA> wanderview: yeah, I don't think we should be dropping part of an origin's storage
# [20:45] <JakeA> wanderview: if we drop the cache or IDB, we should drop the SW too
# [20:45] <wanderview> JakeA: yea, we should treat the registration as part of the origin storage... right now we have it in a separate non-origin-specific db
# [20:45] <wanderview> the scripts live in origin storage though
# [20:45] <JakeA> Krinkle: the cache uses the same origin storage as idb
# [20:46] <TabAtkins> Ugh, this makes things complicated. I need to include them in the source, but flag them so they're invisible to any query methods that aren't called by a blessed caller.
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# [21:04] <izhak> Guys, is it possible to apply perspective transformation to a svg group?
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# [21:05] <TabAtkins> Yes, but iirc you need to use the transform property, not the transform attribute. (3d transforms are part of CSS, and not accepted in the SVG attribute)
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# [21:08] <izhak> Cool, thanks!
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# [21:12] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: Just hitting you with an explicit ping, I just posted https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0150.html about FontFace objects from a cors-tainted stylesheet.
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# [22:37] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
# [22:37] <annevk> TabAtkins: CORS-tainted is not a thing
# [22:37] <annevk> TabAtkins: simplest would be to simply filter out those FontFace objects I think
# [22:38] <TabAtkins> annevk: Not really. It means that, for example, calling document.fonts.load("some-font-in-the-co-sheet 10px") will confusingly return a promise for an empty array of fonts.
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> Despite actually kicking off loads.
# [22:39] <annevk> That would make it observable
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> And I still need the ability for the impl to use these algos and receive the "real" set.
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> Loading behavior is already trivially observable via timing channels.
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> If you know the font name, you can test for loaded status.
# [22:40] <annevk> How?
# [22:40] <TabAtkins> ...the same way you measure whether a font is loaded today?
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> Create an inline element styled with the font you want to measure, and a font you already know has loaded as a fallback. Poll its width; when it changes, the first font has loaded.
# [22:41] <annevk> Ah yeah
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> (Ideally your fallback is a constructed font with weird metrics, very tiny or very big, so it's impossible to confuse your algo if the first font is already loaded.)
# [22:42] <TabAtkins> So exposing load status of fonts you know by name isn't a further leak.
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> Exposing the number of fonts in a tainted stylesheet, and the load status of those mystery fonts, is somewhat more information than is available today, but I have a slightly more complex proposal that addresses that, too. At worst, it only exposes whether the stylesheet contains *any* fonts, but I might be able to spec it such that that's plugged too.
# [22:44] <annevk> Yeah, that proposal seemed okayish
# [22:44] <annevk> Hopefully we can get bz to take a look
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> Which? #2 in the email, or #3 in the next?
# [22:44] <annevk> #3
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# [22:45] <annevk> Anyway, thanks for tackling this switfly
# [22:45] <TabAtkins> np
# [22:45] <boogyman> is there some reason why exposing loading/loaded fonts is an issue?
# [22:45] <TabAtkins> And thanks for prompting me to do the refactor necessary to fix the dom Bikeshed error. ^_^
# [22:46] <annevk> And reach out to bz somehow I guess, not sure who else would be good to review this
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> boogyman: It's more information than is exposed today.
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# [22:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: Already pinged heycam, about to ping our internal people.
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> Tho that's just font implementors, not security people.
# [22:46] <boogyman> but is that extra info a bad thing? what can someone really do with it?
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# [22:47] <TabAtkins> who knows? That's why we limit cross-origin data in the first place.
# [22:48] <TabAtkins> It's often difficult to construct specific attack scenarios until they happen, so a blanket prohibition is often warranted.
# [22:48] <boogyman> ah, I missed the CORS mention
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# [22:51] <annevk> Indeed, it's the combinatory explosion thing why we need to keep SOP as tight as it is now
# [22:51] <annevk> Even security groups such as WebAppSec seem eager to break it :-(
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# [22:58] <roc> :-)
# [22:59] <annevk> roc: rebel
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# [23:00] <annevk> nn
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# [23:39] <jgraham> So… why can't I find where the spec says what to do when you try to navigate and end up with a network error of some sort?
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# [23:51] * Quits: tav (~tav`@host86-167-17-109.range86-167.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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# Session Close: Tue Jul 14 00:00:00 2015

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