/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-07-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 15 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:06] <Domenic> :D
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  24. # [00:33] <sicking> Domenic: I suspect it'll be easier to add a subclass to Array that has .item(), than to try to deprecate .item() on an API-by-API basis
  25. # [00:34] <Domenic> sicking: fair enough, yeah
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  27. # [00:34] <sicking> Domenic: i agree that it sucks though.
  28. # [00:34] <sicking> Domenic: i guess we could even try to add Array.prototype.item... that seems unlikely to work though
  29. # [00:36] <Domenic> sicking: yeah a subclass seems preferable to that. Although I imagine the writers of Web IDL binding code will not be as excited about another custom type :P
  30. # [00:36] <sicking> meh, I think that's the least of our problems
  31. # [00:37] <Domenic> I dunno, I got pretty strong pushback trying to make DOMException a custom type (like ES Errors) instead of a WebIDL-defined one.
  32. # [00:37] <Domenic> I guess the payoff is higher here
  33. # [00:37] <sicking> Other than the sadness of the confusion of having some Arrays with .item, and some without .item, Gecko's first problem would be that we don't support subclasses of natives yet
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  36. # [00:38] <Domenic> I hear that's almost there...
  37. # [00:38] <sicking> yeah. I don't know what "almost" means though
  38. # [00:38] <sicking> but yeah, i've heard that too
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  106. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> Domenic: re: "Gosh, wouldn't it be nice if HTML was something you could pull request..." dunno if you've seen https://github.com/w3c/spork#editing yet but that's exactly the intent of it
  107. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> it's pretty nuts really, on several levels
  108. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> from the twisted mind of Robin Berjon
  109. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> example of a spork PR for a bug fix to the spec https://github.com/w3c/spork/commit/d5fd2371fc7142eca2a70050e88879ff1f0e90ea
  110. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> not for the faint of heart
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  114. # [04:24] <Domenic> Yeah I'd rather figure out a way to get changes into the spec used by implementers though, not the fork.
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  122. # [04:41] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: That's... pretty fucked.
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  127. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> yeah I guess it's also not such a wonderful thing that right now the process of trying to get changes into this spec doesn't use the collaboration mechanisms we're now commonly using for most other specs
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  224. # [09:50] <annevk> philipj: so remove hierarchy restrictions on requestFullscreen()... Then file a bug on HTML to define the inert thing based on top layer? Do we then still need top layer algorithms? Or should I define the inert stuff in Fullscreen?
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  233. # [10:22] <annevk> jochen__: if you have time to chat about referrer today that'd be great
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  238. # [10:31] <annevk> jochen__: I summarized all the points I want to talk about here: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/80
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  242. # [10:42] <annevk> mkwst: ^^
  243. # [10:43] <mkwst> sorry, scribing a TAG meeting, arguing with them about security this afternoon.
  244. # [10:43] <mkwst> you should talk to jochen__ though!
  245. # [10:43] <mkwst> otherwise, I'm back home tomorrow.
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  247. # [10:44] <annevk> alright, sounds good, I got a pile of stuff we need to go through :-P
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  254. # [11:03] <annevk> JakeA: type "opaqueredirect"?
  255. # [11:05] <JakeA> annevk: works for me. Would it be more consistent to hyphenate?
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  257. # [11:05] <annevk> JakeA: not necessarily, e.g. "sharedworker"
  258. # [11:07] <JakeA> annevk: true
  259. # [11:09] <annevk> Hmm, filtered responses don't filter url list
  260. # [11:09] <annevk> That seems like a bug
  261. # [11:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess "basic filtered response" -> "basic filtered-response"?
  262. # [11:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: but "filtered response" can remain as is when it is on its own?
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  264. # [11:28] <philipj> annevk: maybe an "add to top layer" algorithm isn't needed for the inert stuff, but perhaps for sanity if a spec tries to add an element which is already in the top layer?
  265. # [11:30] <annevk> philipj: you mean for the "add, or move if already present" phrase?
  266. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: well in that case it can stay as "basic filtered response" I think, because I think it's clear in context because there it's clear that "basic" is modifying "filtered response" (again, some of this comes down to judgement calls)
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  272. # [11:51] <smaug____> impossible to get github.io working :/
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  274. # [11:52] <philipj> annevk: yes, exactly
  275. # [11:52] <philipj> unless HTML already says the very same thing and there is no problem
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  282. # [12:02] <annevk> smaug____: what's the problem?
  283. # [12:03] <annevk> philipj: I'm happy to add add/remove abstractions while removing the hierarchical restrictions
  284. # [12:03] <annevk> philipj: I guess then someone needs to file a bug on HTML to do the remaining work around inertness
  285. # [12:03] <philipj> annevk: Sounds like a plan
  286. # [12:04] <smaug____> annevk: well, getting it to work, at least in Finland. for github folks http://smaug----.github.io/ seems to work, but not here in Finland. That page should have been there since last night already
  287. # [12:05] <smaug____> (I'd just like to expose serviceworkerconsole via some https pages)
  288. # [12:05] <smaug____> (similar silly little thing for testing as what http://mozilla.pettay.fi/workerconsole/ is)
  289. # [12:07] <annevk> Interesting, https://smaug----.github.io/ doesn't work
  290. # [12:07] <annevk> That's probably another case of Gecko's overzealous domain checker
  291. # [12:07] <annevk> smaug____: I get "Nothing to see"
  292. # [12:07] <smaug____> that is ok then
  293. # [12:07] <smaug____> Nothing to see is the expected
  294. # [12:08] <annevk> (in Gecko I get a certificate error)
  295. # [12:08] <smaug____> I get, "no server found"
  296. # [12:08] <annevk> (though only for the https version)
  297. # [12:09] <smaug____> so in theory https://smaug----.github.io/serviceworkerconsole/index.html might work.
  298. # [12:11] <smaug____> btw, I found serviceworker API overly complicated, and weird even for simple stuff like communication. One adds message listener to one object but uses postMessage on some other one.
  299. # [12:11] <smaug____> that is with about 15mins experience with SW API :)
  300. # [12:12] <annevk> smaug____: 404 in Chrome, cert error in Gecko
  301. # [12:12] <smaug____> fun
  302. # [12:12] <smaug____> oh well
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  304. # [12:16] <beverloo> annevk, just to confirm, Notification.vibrate will expose the validated and normalized version of the pattern given in NotificationOptions, and will thus expose some of the UA-imposed limits (max length and max duration in the Vibration API)
  305. # [12:16] <annevk> yeah
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  307. # [12:16] <beverloo> this is fine by me, but I don't want it to be an oversight :)
  308. # [12:16] <beverloo> as soon as FrozenArray is available in Chrome we'll ship it, hopefully Chrome 46
  309. # [12:22] <annevk> cool
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  311. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: fyi https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1184049 SteveF_ reports that for Notifications in Firefox, Firefox doesn't cause them to be exposed/announced to AT users in a way that makes them accessible
  312. # [12:28] <annevk> :-/
  313. # [12:28] <SteveF_> marco found old bug he filed so moved over there https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1052776
  314. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  315. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> btw I think another use case for having notification sounds is something Leonie mentioned, which is that if she has several channels open in an app like Slack or Gitter, and somebody pings her and it creates a notification, she doesn't know which channel it's from
  316. # [12:30] * firefox is now known as capella
  317. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> but I guess if things worked correctly she should be able to navigate automatically from that notification to whatever document/window that generated it
  318. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> focus on the notification, hit enter, it should focus the tab it came from
  319. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> ah yea but the problem is one tab/document can be showing several different chat rooms/channels at once
  320. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> man, I see Marco filed that bug more than year ago
  321. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> oh, not quite but almost a year ago
  322. # [12:36] <annevk> I believe i18n kind of sucks for notifications across implementations too :-/
  323. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> yup
  324. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> things can only get better!
  325. # [12:38] <annevk> Yeah, but if you don't read windows-1252 or are blind or some such you're out of luck for the first five years of a new feature...
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  328. # [12:39] <annevk> Have to hand it to Apple for getting those things right when they ship new products (at least that seems to be the general impression)
  329. # [12:42] <Dumu> Hello everyone, when I visit https://developers.whatwg.org with Firefox, it says it is in offline mode. But when I visit it with Chromium, it's fine.
  330. # [12:42] * Joins: aretecode (~aretecode@S01061859339e5f51.cc.shawcable.net)
  331. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> oh boy
  332. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> I wonder who decided it would be a good idea to use appache for that
  333. # [12:44] <Dumu> also ok with Opera
  334. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> Dumu: I'm not sure we still have an active maintainer for that version
  335. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> anybody remember who was maintaining it last?
  336. # [12:48] <beverloo> MikeSmith, annevk, fwiw, Sanghyun is looking at implementing the `sound` attribute for Chrome
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  338. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> ah cool
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  340. # [12:48] <beverloo> we're generally in favor, but figuring out reasonable limits will be interesting - don't want this to become a way of playing multi-minute audio tracks
  341. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> yup
  342. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> like window.name
  343. # [12:49] <beverloo> hah :)
  344. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> store you music collection in a notification.sound to share with others!
  345. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> Dumu: i'm still searching through logs to try to figure out who to ping about that doc
  346. # [12:50] <annevk> Dumu: developers.whatwg.org is not a recent version of HTML unfortunately
  347. # [12:50] <beverloo> before we supported Notification.data, developers were storing stuff in the hash part of the icon URL :/
  348. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> hah
  349. # [12:51] <Dumu> I didn't realise it was an out-of-date version
  350. # [12:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: pretty sure it's https://twitter.com/benschwarz
  351. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: It was but I thought recently somebody else had been building it
  352. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> anyway you're right it's old
  353. # [12:52] <annevk> Dumu: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/
  354. # [12:52] <annevk> I wish developers.whatwg.org listed a date somewhere
  355. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> Dumu: yeah you're best off just using the full https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/
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  357. # [12:53] <Dumu> cool, thanks for letting me know - I shall disseminate this
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  373. # [13:27] <annevk> smaug____: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1184059 if you care
  374. # [13:27] <annevk> smaug____: (about the cert error for your github.io thing which doesn't work in Finland anyway)
  375. # [13:28] <annevk> smaug____: can you access github.io through a VPN btw? Finland has a firewall of sorts?
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  379. # [13:31] <smaug____> I can access https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/index.html just fine
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  381. # [13:31] <smaug____> annevk: interesting
  382. # [13:32] <smaug____> well, I can't access the http:// url either
  383. # [13:32] <annevk> smaug____: maybe your DNS provider is strict
  384. # [13:32] <annevk> smaug____: DNS resolver that is
  385. # [13:32] <smaug____> yup, could be
  386. # [13:32] <annevk> smaug____: perhaps if you use Google DNS or some such you could access it?
  387. # [13:32] <smaug____> not going to use google services
  388. # [13:32] <smaug____> but if there is something else
  389. # [13:32] <annevk> or OpenDNS
  390. # [13:33] <annevk> hmm
  391. # [13:35] <smaug____> hsivonen_: ping
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  393. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> smaug____, on vacation, I think
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  399. # [13:38] <smaug____> hmm, who else from Finland here...
  400. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> I guess poiru is in SF still
  401. # [13:40] <smaug____> it would be great it me trying to use github.io would reveal two bugs: one on operator side and one in Gecko
  402. # [13:41] <smaug____> s/it me/if me/
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  424. # [15:09] <jochen__> annevk: around?
  425. # [15:09] <annevk> jochen__: yup
  426. # [15:09] <jochen__> you wanted to chat
  427. # [15:10] <annevk> jochen__: yeah, did you see the new fetch issue I wrote up?
  428. # [15:10] <jochen__> yes
  429. # [15:10] <jochen__> makes sense i guess
  430. # [15:10] <jochen__> i still need to chat with jww about suborigins and pushState but that seems like a separate issue
  431. # [15:10] <annevk> jochen__: it has one open question at the end, how the global referrer policy interacts with request's referrer policy (aka referrer="")
  432. # [15:11] <jochen__> do we really need a referrer attribute on anchors? :-/
  433. # [15:11] <annevk> jochen__: my understanding is that Yahoo! would like to set a global policy of "origin", but then use "unsafe-url" for some stuff they vetted in some way
  434. # [15:12] <annevk> jochen__: well, I'm not a big fan per se, but apparently some folks from Mozilla security are quite invested in it
  435. # [15:12] <jochen__> and by some you mean one
  436. # [15:13] <jochen__> and by invested you mean they implemented it and would rather not have their patch go wasted
  437. # [15:13] <annevk> well, I talked with at least three people the other day and they had invited more, but one of them has been doing the impl work I think
  438. # [15:13] <jochen__> in any case, i guess the only way this could work is that the referrer attribute just overrides the document's referrer policy when it creates a request
  439. # [15:14] <jochen__> i'd like to know what sid thinks of it
  440. # [15:14] <jochen__> he owns the core impl after all
  441. # [15:14] <jochen__> (in firefox)
  442. # [15:14] <annevk> right, it's not exactly hard, it just seems weird that an attribute could override a policy set through CSP
  443. # [15:14] <jochen__> yes
  444. # [15:14] <jochen__> but so does rel=noreferrer
  445. # [15:15] <annevk> well, that exposes less
  446. # [15:15] <jochen__> yeah
  447. # [15:15] <annevk> as I understand it the specific case Yahoo! is interested in is exposing more
  448. # [15:15] <jochen__> but you can also change the referrer policy to unsafe-url even though the csp said never
  449. # [15:15] <jochen__> (by inserting a fresh meta tag)
  450. # [15:15] <annevk> okay
  451. # [15:16] <annevk> so maybe referrer policy is a separate beast
  452. # [15:16] <jochen__> yes
  453. # [15:16] <jochen__> btw, we still lack feature detection
  454. # [15:16] <jochen__> that would actually be useful
  455. # [15:16] <jochen__> so sites wouldn't have to user-agent sniff
  456. # [15:16] <annevk> w("referrer" in document.createElement("a")) should work?
  457. # [15:16] <jochen__> but I don't know how to expose this in the platform
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  459. # [15:17] <jochen__> when we have the referrer attribute, that's right
  460. # [15:17] <jochen__> it still doesn't tell you which policies the browser supports
  461. # [15:17] <jochen__> e.g. safari still only has the policies that adam and me defined in the whatwg wiki
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  463. # [15:17] <annevk> jochen__: if you make the referrer attribute reflect known values, you could inspect it by setting a policy and then seeing if the user agent kept it or returns the default value
  464. # [15:18] <annevk> jochen__: that's the normal way it works for HTML attributes
  465. # [15:18] <jochen__> ok
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  467. # [15:18] <jochen__> at least the attribute would be a bit more useful then
  468. # [15:19] <annevk> jochen__: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/infrastructure.html#limited-to-only-known-values
  469. # [15:21] <annevk> jochen__: for fetch() we could also support both...
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  471. # [15:21] <annevk> jochen__: fetch(url, {referrer:"/yay", referrerPolicy:"origin"})
  472. # [15:21] <jochen__> hum
  473. # [15:22] <jochen__> can we use something like referrerPath or something?
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  475. # [15:22] <jochen__> if a.referrer is a policy, using referrer for the path in fetch is odd
  476. # [15:22] <annevk> I think that boat has sailed :/
  477. # [15:23] <jochen__> hurray for consistency
  478. # [15:23] <annevk> Request.prototype.referrer is a thing
  479. # [15:23] <annevk> We could still rename the attribute though, that hasn't shipped
  480. # [15:23] <jochen__> and I guess that's a full url, right?
  481. # [15:23] <annevk> yes
  482. # [15:23] <jochen__> yeah, then let's name the anchor thing referrerPolicy
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  484. # [15:25] <annevk> okay, I'll try to write up all the bits in Fetch
  485. # [15:26] <jochen__> thx
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  490. # [15:33] <annevk> philipj: I'll take another look at Fullscreen tomorrow
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  492. # [15:36] <annevk> Hmm, Fetch is >4000 lines. Oh, DOM is >9000 lines.
  493. # [15:37] <annevk> Heh, HTML is >85000 lines
  494. # [15:37] <philipj> annevk: thanks, nothing urgent, just went through the open bugs to see if there was anything interesting
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  497. # [15:40] <wanderview> annevk: do we have the proposal anywhere for storage boxes to do their own LRU? not in the spec and the old wiki page just directs to here: https://storage.spec.whatwg.org/
  498. # [15:41] <wanderview> or just the concept of temporary
  499. # [15:41] <annevk> wanderview: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Storage#Cache_boxes
  500. # [15:41] <annevk> wanderview: the wiki page is marked obsolete, but still contains all the old info
  501. # [15:41] <wanderview> hmm... it didn't seem to show any of it to me
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  503. # [15:42] <annevk> works in private mode too
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  507. # [15:44] <wanderview> ok, I see the content there now
  508. # [15:44] <wanderview> I must just still be asleep
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  516. # [16:02] <wanderview> annevk: can a redirect have an anchor ref on it?
  517. # [16:03] <wanderview> does that make sense?
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  520. # [16:12] <annevk> wanderview: yes it can
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  522. # [16:12] <JakeA> wanderview: step 19 suggest it can https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#navigating-across-documents
  523. # [16:12] <JakeA> Damnit, I'm always slower than annevk
  524. # [16:13] <annevk> well, your answer was more useful
  525. # [16:13] <JakeA> I'll take that as today's 'win'
  526. # [16:13] * JakeA goes to bed
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  528. # [16:14] <annevk> JakeA: fixed the redirect thing, though found some new issues to sort through with request's client and such...
  529. # [16:15] <JakeA> annevk: what are the issues?
  530. # [16:15] <annevk> JakeA: for client requests, request's client is null, but that is wrong as the request still needs to be added to some fetch registry
  531. # [16:16] <wanderview> annevk: can you confirm the only way Response.url can be set is via the fetch() function?
  532. # [16:16] <annevk> JakeA: and apparently Gecko tracks two "clients", a trigger and loading client
  533. # [16:16] <annevk> JakeA: haven't quite worked through how that is significant yet
  534. # [16:17] <annevk> wanderview: I'm not sure what that means
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  537. # [16:17] <annevk> wanderview: I gotta go for a bit, back in an hour or so
  538. # [16:17] <JakeA> annevk: possibly for requests that may not create a client?
  539. # [16:18] <JakeA> wanderview: yeah, I believe that's the case. Manually created responses have an empty url
  540. # [16:18] <wanderview> JakeA: annevk: and Response.redirect() just sets the Location header... not the url
  541. # [16:18] <JakeA> Correct
  542. # [16:18] <wanderview> ok
  543. # [16:18] <wanderview> trying to help a contributor fix our Response.url getter to strip the anchor fragment
  544. # [16:19] <wanderview> thanks
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  553. # [16:39] <smaug____> annevk: ok, atm looks like the github.io is a linux issue o_O
  554. # [16:40] <smaug____> I can access the address on non-linux systems
  555. # [16:40] <smaug____> this is fun
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  557. # [16:52] <annevk> smaug____: URLs are lots of fun
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  566. # [17:14] <annevk> wanderview: Response.redirect() is a shorthand for a synthetic response
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  575. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> does Opera 12 have something built in that causes it to automatically send validation validation requests to the W3C validator?
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  578. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> the #1 user agent I see by far in the validator logs is Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.2; Win64; x64) Presto/2.12.388 Version/12.16
  579. # [17:41] <annevk> Domenic: the main thing that's holding me back from adding promises to places is actually deciding between rejection and fulfilling
  580. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I remember it having something like that
  581. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, or semi-automatically
  582. # [17:42] <annevk> Domenic: that is, Notification.requestPermission() and requestFullscreen()/exitFullscreen()
  583. # [17:42] <annevk> philipj: ^^
  584. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok that would explain it then I guess
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  588. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> it seems to account for 13.5% of all the requests the validator receives
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  591. # [17:48] <caitp> that's strange given the market share can't be more than a sliver
  592. # [17:49] <annevk> Yeah, that seems unlikely... There's right-click to validate option iirc, but accounting for 13.5%... Perhaps a bot?
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  594. # [17:50] <Ms2ger> Especially with nobody using Opera anymore
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  597. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> well there's a weird pattern to the referres
  598. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> *referrers
  599. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> they're all things like this:
  600. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> http://webtsf.bidbuy.co.kr/translation/?bbOpt=100011&bbUrl=http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fvgn.vn%2Fflash%2Fprofile%2Falizaschurr
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  602. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> e.g., some URL with the validator URL as a query param
  603. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> but randome other than that
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  605. # [17:57] <annevk> perhaps it's some Russian bot network using Opera?
  606. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> I mean there's otherwise no pattern to the URL of the referring site not to the value of the "uri" param in the part that's a URL for the validator
  607. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> yeah seems like
  608. # [17:57] <annevk> maybe that's why Opera is popular in Russia
  609. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> gotta be something like that
  610. # [17:57] <annevk> :-P
  611. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> heh
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  613. # [17:58] <Domenic> annevk: right, yeah. For methods named request I can go either way. I guess we have some minor precedent for rejecting with some of the newer permission-requesters.
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  615. # [17:58] <annevk> Hmm, I really dislike throwing methods
  616. # [17:59] <annevk> Well, unless it's truly exceptional, but permissions don't feel like that
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  621. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> I used to hate throwing methods, but working with more Python made me tolerate them more.
  622. # [18:02] <philipj> annevk, Domenic, with Notification.requestPermission(), are we talking about requesting fullscreen permission up-front?
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  624. # [18:03] <philipj> MikeSmith: I think some version of Opera desktop had a "validate" thing in the context menu actually
  625. # [18:03] <Domenic> philipj: you mean for requestFullscreen?
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  627. # [18:04] <philipj> MikeSmith: confirmed, Opera 12.16 has this (terrible idea, right?)
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  629. # [18:04] <philipj> Domenic: well, I'm trying to understand what annevk wanted me to comment on above :)
  630. # [18:05] <annevk> philipj: Notificaiton.requestPermission() is another API we want to return a promise for
  631. # [18:05] <annevk> philipj: and it's not clear what the reject/fulfill tradeoff is
  632. # [18:05] * igrigorik____ is now known as igrigorik
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  637. # [18:06] <Domenic> Let's be sure I'm remembering the precedent right.
  638. # [18:06] <philipj> annevk: oh, I thought you were talking about difficulties with having requestFullscreen() return a promise
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  640. # [18:07] <Domenic> Well, permissions API .request() is totally unspecified, so that's no help...
  641. # [18:07] <philipj> What is the tradeoff anyway? Whether or not to let scripts know that they don't have permission? o_O
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  643. # [18:08] <Domenic> no, whether to say true/false for permission, or to fulfill/reject
  644. # [18:08] <Domenic> s/say/fulfill with/
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  646. # [18:08] <Domenic> basically, is it exceptional to be denied permission when requesting it
  647. # [18:08] <philipj> oh, I see
  648. # [18:08] <philipj> Promise<boolean> that always fulfils vs. Promise<void> that can be rejected?
  649. # [18:09] <Domenic> yep
  650. # [18:09] <philipj> I see. Considering code like requestPermission("foo").then(function() { doIt(); }) it seems less error-prone to reject
  651. # [18:10] <Domenic> yeah but consider code like `await requestPermission("foo")`
  652. # [18:10] <Domenic> Should it be `if (await requestPermission("foo")) { doIt(); } else { dontDoIt(); }`
  653. # [18:10] <Domenic> or should it be `var ok = false; try { requestPermission("foo"); ok = true; } catch (e) { dontDoIt(); } if (ok) { doIt(); }`
  654. # [18:11] <Domenic> the latter being worst-case I guess; if it's truly exceptional you would let it bubble and handle it at a higher level.
  655. # [18:11] <philipj> I hadn't even seen the syntax for await until now, so I'm afraid I'm of no use here
  656. # [18:11] <Domenic> the latter line should be `try { await requestPermission("foo"); ...`
  657. # [18:12] <philipj> so when using await, a rejected promise will throw an exception, right?
  658. # [18:12] * philipj reads http://jakearchibald.com/2014/es7-async-functions/
  659. # [18:14] <Domenic> Yep
  660. # [18:14] <Domenic> I am coming around to bool
  661. # [18:14] <Domenic> (Or PermissionStatus)
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  663. # [18:15] <philipj> Don't know about Notification.requestPermission(), but in the case of requestFullscreen() I think it would be pretty odd to not reject in the case where we currently fire fullscreenerror
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  666. # [18:18] <Domenic> Agreed, those are true error cases though right? Not just denial.
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  668. # [18:19] <philipj> Right, at this point they're cases where the API has been used incorrectly
  669. # [18:19] <Domenic> +1
  670. # [18:19] <Domenic> OK, I entered all this reasoning into https://github.com/w3c/permissions/issues/41
  671. # [18:19] <philipj> There was a time when people wanted to ask for permission before entering fullscreen, in a kind of two-step model, but that time has passed
  672. # [18:19] <Domenic> Hopefully nobody will disagree strongly.
  673. # [18:19] <philipj> Just use many words and everyone will agree.
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  689. # [18:47] <annevk> philipj: so fulfill with undefined, reject with TypeError?
  690. # [18:48] <philipj> annevk: maybe fulfil with the element that is now fullscreen, or would that be un-idiomatic?
  691. # [18:48] <philipj> I guess you could look at document.fullscreenElement
  692. # [18:49] <annevk> yeah, it's also the element you just invoked the method on
  693. # [18:50] <philipj> so fulfil with undefined seems OK, if there's strong guarantee that document.fullscreenElement inside the promise callback will be the element that you requested fullscreen on
  694. # [18:50] <philipj> I'm not sure it will be in weird cases where you request fullscreen on two elements at once, though?
  695. # [18:50] <annevk> I guess, or if you invoke requestFullscreen from the event?
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  697. # [18:54] <philipj> but then, you can still know which event you requested fullscreen on, so also passing it to the callback might confuse people about why this is so
  698. # [18:54] <philipj> so let's not
  699. # [18:54] <philipj> as for rejection, as TypeError the typical thing?
  700. # [18:54] <philipj> s/as/is/?
  701. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> I believe so
  702. # [18:57] <philipj> If so that WFM, annevk
  703. # [18:57] <annevk> I TypeError all the things :-)
  704. # [18:57] <annevk> It's the new DOMException
  705. # [18:57] <Domenic> Hmm https://w3c.github.io/push-api/#widl-PushManager-subscribe-Promise-PushSubscription--PushSubscriptionOptions-options rejects with PermissionDeniedError for not-granted.
  706. # [18:58] <Domenic> annevk: isn't it fulfill with true? Or fulfill with false if permission is denied?
  707. # [18:58] <annevk> Domenic: not if we're going to reject for fullscreenerror events
  708. # [18:59] <Domenic> Right I guess fullscreen is a weird one here.
  709. # [18:59] <philipj> If permission is denied you exit fullscreen again
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  711. # [18:59] <Domenic> yeah
  712. # [18:59] <Domenic> it's barely asynchronous, really... just a turn or two of the event loop for rendering stuff to happen.
  713. # [18:59] <philipj> annevk: I've noticed you like TypeError a lot, is there some consensus that it's the new black, or are other editors going on other types?
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  715. # [18:59] <annevk> always fulfill with PermissionStatus makes sense for Notification I think
  716. # [19:00] <philipj> Domenic: well, that and actually doing the resize on the browser side
  717. # [19:00] <annevk> philipj: not sure, I'm mostly trying to be more compatible with non-browser JavaScript
  718. # [19:01] <annevk> philipj: and Allen has this philosophy that branching on exceptions isn't really done in JavaScript, which seems mostly true
  719. # [19:01] <philipj> annevk: right, so the choices are EvalError, RangeError, ReferenceError, TypeError and URIError?
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  721. # [19:01] <annevk> philipj: mostly Range and Type
  722. # [19:02] <philipj> RangeError for things like index out of bounds?
  723. # [19:02] <annevk> philipj: yeah
  724. # [19:02] <philipj> btw, is it possible use just Error?
  725. # [19:02] <philipj> for things that just don't have anything to do with types?
  726. # [19:02] <annevk> philipj: I guess, not sure if JavaScript does that anywhere
  727. # [19:02] <philipj> oh well, I won't interfere with that, just curious :)
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  729. # [19:04] <annevk> philipj: the other thought is uplifting features to be JavaScript builtin libraries
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  731. # [19:05] <annevk> philipj: doesn't apply much to Fullscreen and Notifications I guess, but would e.g. for URL
  732. # [19:06] <philipj> Well... it'd be hard to ensure consistent internal and web-facing behavior for URLs then, but sure, there are definitely some bits that may eventually be in JS.
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  758. # [19:37] <annevk> Microsoft's Web Component strategy is surprisingly similar to that of Mozilla
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  760. # [19:39] <annevk> philipj: perhaps we should fulfill with true if something changed and false if nothing changed?
  761. # [19:40] <annevk> philipj: was just reading your comment in Bugzilla
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  776. # [20:00] <smaug____> annevk: they sent some new information ?
  777. # [20:00] <smaug____> MS
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  779. # [20:01] <annevk> waiting for bit.ly and to.co...
  780. # [20:01] <annevk> smaug____: they wrote http://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2015/07/15/microsoft-edge-and-web-components/
  781. # [20:01] <annevk> smaug____: doesn't say much
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  786. # [20:05] <wanderview> annevk: they at least gave a rough ordering of features they woudl implement
  787. # [20:06] <wanderview> template, shadow dom, custom element
  788. # [20:06] <annevk> yeah, that's also roughly the order of stable to unclear
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  790. # [20:07] <annevk> I wonder if anyone has any tricks up their sleeve for custom elements
  791. # [20:08] <annevk> Other than making a decision that we hope JavaScript won't restrict private state to constructors and run with it...
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  797. # [20:14] <Domenic> I have a trick I've been working on...
  798. # [20:14] <Domenic> It's still about three-quarters baked, so I haven't sent it anywhere, but you can poke around my GitHub...
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  800. # [20:15] <annevk> Heh
  801. # [20:15] <Domenic> "we in FirefoxOS no longer are working on creating a "web apps" platform" ???? from https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/RAHBNdesiXs
  802. # [20:15] <annevk> I'll have a look, was afraid that meeting was going to be sad
  803. # [20:15] <tantek> wat
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  805. # [20:16] <annevk> Domenic: Mozilla co-opted "web apps" at some point to mean iOS/Android-style apps with web technology, iirc
  806. # [20:16] <Domenic> oh... that makes more sense...
  807. # [20:16] <annevk> Domenic: i.e., packages
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  809. # [20:18] <annevk> Though I think also Firefox OS shifted thinking somewhat from being about applications to just being about the web, but I haven't really seen any demos
  810. # [20:18] <tantek> annvevk I'm starting to think that the whole "JSON side-file" approach is a giant anti-pattern as all it does it provide another vulnerable surface for JSONLDists to attack.
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  812. # [20:18] <Domenic> hahahahahaha
  813. # [20:19] <annevk> tantek: that thread really could use some JSON-LD trolling...
  814. # [20:19] <tantek> Doesn't "app" just mean "something that requires more work for the user to find, install, update, because apparently users prefer to futz with re-arranging icons on a homescreen more than actually do anything useful" ?
  815. # [20:20] <annevk> Yeah, it's not clear that "apps" are actually a great thing for the web to try to emulate
  816. # [20:21] <annevk> This whole game of playing to the strengths of native is getting old
  817. # [20:21] <tantek> yup
  818. # [20:22] <wanderview> annevk: my understanding is the current plan is for fxos "apps" to just be SW-enabled pages... dangerous APIs will require the content to be in a signed package, though
  819. # [20:22] <tantek> for some reasons "native" popularized "install" as more sexy than "bookmark" even though they're basically the same thing (modulo pre-caching etc.)
  820. # [20:23] <annevk> tantek: yes, that has been my party-line for years, and yet folks still insist on "install" being a separate thing, as e.g. happens in that thread
  821. # [20:23] <tantek> also 2D views of "installed" icons, vs. 1D lists of "bookmarked" text titles and URLs
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  823. # [20:23] <tantek> annevk, cheers.
  824. # [20:24] <annevk> tantek: https://the-pastry-box-project.net/anne-van-kesteren/2013-december-2
  825. # [20:25] <tantek> annvek, but wait, it's not enough to be able to "bookmark" AND "install", we need to be able to "pin" all the things too!
  826. # [20:25] <annevk> I'm not sure it's good or bad that I haven't adjusted my vision much since Dec 2013
  827. # [20:25] <tantek> annevk: that's what you get for being "visionary"
  828. # [20:26] <Domenic> i don't think the term matters. install is most familiar to users. bookmark connotes things that only work online.
  829. # [20:26] <tantek> HAHAHAHAHA
  830. # [20:26] <Domenic> and yes, i know that back in the day firefox's offline mode used to be awesome
  831. # [20:27] <tantek> most (90%+?) of the "native" apps I've seen installed only work online
  832. # [20:27] <Domenic> but these days everybody says no-cache on their homepage
  833. # [20:27] <annevk> iOS uses "[GET]", not install
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  835. # [20:27] <tantek> annevk - true, I think that changed in iOS7 (from [Install] to [Get] in the Apple App Store)
  836. # [20:27] <Domenic> native apps "work" offline, in that they display branded error pages saying "this app needs internet for reason X" instead of "DNS_NETWORK_ERR_NOT_CONNECTED"
  837. # [20:28] <tantek> hahaha awesome
  838. # [20:28] <Domenic> that's a big difference
  839. # [20:28] <annevk> I think that's actually a valid point
  840. # [20:28] <annevk> And I think I might use a service worker for site just for that
  841. # [20:28] <tantek> Domenic: we need a gallery of all those branded error pages with a caption - "How's your native offline support doing now?"
  842. # [20:28] <annevk> Offline branding
  843. # [20:28] <Domenic> annevk: yep, +1
  844. # [20:28] <tantek> sounds like a posterframe
  845. # [20:29] <Domenic> annevk: was vaguely thinking manifest/splash screen stuff could maybe help with auto-generation of such pages, but SW will of course give the most power.
  846. # [20:29] <Domenic> annevk: also https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org/issues/7 and https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org/issues/6 :)
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  855. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> annevk: Any chance you could define "sibling list" of an object in DOM? Would be the object and all of its siblings.
  856. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> bz is asking me to clarify what Selectors means when :nth-child() talks about siblings, for elements without a parent.
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  879. # [21:34] <annevk> TabAtkins: you can't have siblings without a parent
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  881. # [21:36] <Tshot> Hi guys, anyone in here?
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  887. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> annevk: Exactly. But you are the sole element in your sibling list in that case.
  888. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> You don't have any *other* siblings.
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  891. # [21:45] <annevk> TabAtkins: it sounds like you want something like siblings or self
  892. # [21:46] <Domenic> specifiction really feels like the new public-html
  893. # [21:46] <m2n> Hello, Can somebody suggest me how can I include multiple values in a header in the single request. like setRequestHeader("%d = %d",a,b) ? So, basically I want to set the custom header here ?
  894. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> Domenic: That's the definition of "open to the public, and browser vendors don't pay much attention", yes.
  895. # [21:46] <Domenic> a shame, it's so much more readable on mobile
  896. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yes, that's what I want. Well, siblings *and* self. The data structure that :nth-child() et al operate on.
  897. # [21:47] <Domenic> maybe someone could pay ForbesLindesay to revamp readable-email.org. It was a good start but needs more love.
  898. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Without a parent, you're the only element in your sibling list, so you match :first-child and :last-child.
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  900. # [21:48] <annevk> TabAtkins: note that nothing in https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#trees uses "list"
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  902. # [21:48] <Domenic> TabAtkins: nothing in https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/docs/infotree.md for comments?
  903. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> annevk: Sure, is that relevant?
  904. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Not yet, but I'm happy to add if you want them. What format?
  905. # [21:49] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I was thinking # for until-end-of-line
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  907. # [21:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'd prefer some term that matches the existing set
  908. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Yeah, that's my first impulse as well.
  909. # [21:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: ah, inclusive sibling is prolly it
  910. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> Gimme a bit to finish what I'm working on and I'll implement.
  911. # [21:50] <annevk> TabAtkins: file an issue?
  912. # [21:50] <Domenic> TabAtkins: although I found "personal" as a group so I no longer need `Group: WHATWG # I like their CSS better`
  913. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> Domenic: ???
  914. # [21:50] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I am doing a personal spec and got momentarily stuck on what group to put
  915. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Oh. I... was going to remove personal, as it's really "Tab's personal specs".
  916. # [21:51] <Domenic> My first instinct was WHATWG with a comment saying "this is actually just a personal spec"
  917. # [21:51] <Domenic> oh lol
  918. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> But wtv
  919. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Like, it includes some things that are specific to the dir structure of my github. ^_^
  920. # [21:51] <Domenic> haha ok well we'll see how this goes
  921. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> I guess that's just Prism, from before I added syntax highlighting to Bikeshed at all.
  922. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Domenic: You can just omit the Group, you know.
  923. # [21:52] <Domenic> TabAtkins: that gives csswg I'm told
  924. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Domenic: No? I mean, it uses the same stylesheet.
  925. # [21:53] <Domenic> Group must contain the name of the group the spec is being generated for. This is used by the boilerplate generation to select the correct file. It defaults to "csswg".
  926. # [21:53] <Domenic> from https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/docs/metadata.md
  927. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> Oh, I need to update that documention, sorry.
  928. # [21:53] <Domenic> oh cool
  929. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Omitted group is explicitly no group. It uses the standard CSSWG styling, but it has a CC0 copyright license by default and doesn't do anything weird about SotD or anything.
  930. # [21:56] <Domenic> sounds perfect
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