/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-07-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 29 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [00:15] <jyasskin_w> Anyone have thoughts on portably testing exception messages? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2015JulSep/0002.html
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  30. # [00:45] <MikeSmith> jyasskin_w: Ms2ger does
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  32. # [00:46] <jyasskin_w> Ms2ger: Is my proposal on that thread right? Is there a better way?
  33. # [00:46] <MikeSmith> and jgraham, as you know
  34. # [00:46] <jyasskin_w> Yep.
  35. # [00:46] <jyasskin_w> thx
  36. # [00:46] <Ms2ger> I'd rather spec the messages
  37. # [00:50] <jyasskin_w> Ms2ger: Interesting, but I'm not sure we can. Different platforms have different information available, and I'd like them to be free to help their developers as much as they can.
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  42. # [00:51] <jyasskin_w> e.g. platforms may or may not expose the exact GATT error message. It'd be nice to let them show it if they have it, but conform if they don't.
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  44. # [00:54] <jyasskin_w> slightlyoff says Chrome has a principled objection to specifying messages.
  45. # [00:56] <smaug____> if you don't spec something properly, web pages end up relying on the behavior of the browser the developer happens to use. /me agrees with Ms2ger
  46. # [00:56] <slightlyoff> specifically messages shown to end users
  47. # [00:56] <jgraham> These are API-accessible messages
  48. # [00:56] <Ms2ger> Well, then I have a principled objection against testing them
  49. # [00:56] <slightlyoff> we are likely to change them over time and won't spec UI
  50. # [00:57] <slightlyoff> oh... api accessible....hrm
  51. # [00:57] <jyasskin_w> We do have a way to send a different message to the user vs developer, but most of the messages are the .message field.
  52. # [00:57] <jgraham> But yeah, I don't think that you should simultaneously say they can't be interoperable and must be tested
  53. # [00:57] <slightlyoff> howso?
  54. # [00:57] <jyasskin_w> We must test UI, but UI isn't interoperable.
  55. # [00:57] <slightlyoff> (and that's OK)
  56. # [00:57] <jgraham> Right, but we don't test UI in web-platform-tests
  57. # [00:58] <jyasskin_w> And these messages are primarily UI. They do have to be API-accessible so they can be sent back to servers with onerror, but they're for developer consumption, not for testing. If there's a reason for folks to switch on them, that should be reflected in .name, not .message.
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  59. # [00:59] <jyasskin_w> We're not going to write the web bluetooth tests twice, and we're going to test UI somewhere, so if we can't include the UI test in web-platform-tests, then the Web Bluetooth tests won't be upstreamed.
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  61. # [00:59] <jyasskin_w> That would be sad.
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  63. # [00:59] <Ms2ger> Your position makes no sense to me
  64. # [00:59] <Domenic> Sebmaster: annevk: web-platform-tests does not test the parsed href?
  65. # [00:59] <Ms2ger> Why bother testing if they're not supposed to be relied upon?
  66. # [01:00] <jyasskin_w> Ms2ger: We want the developer-facing UI to keep working.
  67. # [01:00] <jyasskin_w> Anything that's not tested won't keep working.
  68. # [01:00] <Domenic> jeeez it implicitly assembles the href using a different algorithm than the URL spec does !?!
  69. # [01:01] <Sebmaster> Domenic: test here: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/url/a-element.html#L47
  70. # [01:01] <Sebmaster> but yeah, it assembles somehow :D
  71. # [01:02] <Domenic> Sebmaster: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/url/urltestparser.js#L18-L26
  72. # [01:02] <Domenic> this is bad
  73. # [01:02] <Domenic> isn't the whole file bug about serialization not inserting the //s in the current spec?
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  75. # [01:02] <Sebmaster> nah not serialization
  76. # [01:02] <Domenic> hmm no your patch is in parsing
  77. # [01:02] <Sebmaster> parsing i think
  78. # [01:03] <Domenic> hmm then i need to go find the failing test case again
  79. # [01:03] <Sebmaster> but i guess it'd rather fit into serialization
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  81. # [01:04] <jgraham> jyasskin_w: FWIW you can't publish a spec at W3C in an actual WG without a testsuite
  82. # [01:04] <jgraham> So it seems likely you'll have to do that work at some point
  83. # [01:04] <slightlyoff> jgraham: there was of course no plan to
  84. # [01:04] <Domenic> Sebmaster: right so the failing test is parsing "/path/to/docroot/index.html" against "file:/path/to/docroot/index.html"
  85. # [01:05] <Domenic> Sebmaster: in whatwg-url that results in a href of file:/path/to/docroot/index.html
  86. # [01:05] <slightlyoff> jgraham: there's a smaller issue here; which is what we should do about developer-facing strings
  87. # [01:05] <Domenic> Sebmaster: whereas it should result in file:///path/to/docroot/index.html
  88. # [01:05] <slightlyoff> jgraham: which I don't have the same objection to as end-user-facing UI
  89. # [01:05] <jyasskin_w> slightlyoff: Ah, I misunderstood you then.
  90. # [01:05] <slightlyoff> no, I misunderstood
  91. # [01:05] <slightlyoff> my fault
  92. # [01:05] <Domenic> Sebmaster: seems like a serialization patch would be better (but there are no tests)
  93. # [01:05] <Sebmaster> Domenic: since the path in that case would just be /path/to/docroot/index.html, this should probably go into serialization
  94. # [01:05] <Sebmaster> yeah
  95. # [01:06] <Domenic> nooooo tesssssstsss -_-
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  97. # [01:06] <jgraham> hallvors: Got any good examples of error message strings causing compat problems?
  98. # [01:07] <slightlyoff> I'd also like to understand the value of i18n of developer-facing strings
  99. # [01:07] <slightlyoff> I'm not sure it's something we do much of today
  100. # [01:07] <slightlyoff> but I'm ignorant there
  101. # [01:07] <jgraham> Yeah, I don't know either.
  102. # [01:08] <Domenic> sicking and I always had the idea to add some machine-readable unique standardized string
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  107. # [01:08] <Domenic> error.cause === "could_not_parse_base_url"
  108. # [01:08] <Domenic> corresponding to 2.2 in https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#constructors
  109. # [01:08] <Domenic> or a guid
  110. # [01:09] <jyasskin_w> I don't think we can implement stable message strings in Chrome on multiple platforms without dropping lots of information. e.g. ChromeOS exposes different error conditions than MacOS. Neither documents their error conditions, either.
  111. # [01:10] <jgraham> Then it seems like you are going to end up changing your expectations here for every OS upgrade
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  113. # [01:11] <jyasskin_w> Absolutely. That's why my first patch supported regular expressions, so we can keep the actual test somewhat stable over time. But skipping the message tests isn't going to stop developers from depending on them, either.
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  116. # [01:14] <jgraham> Anyway, if you want to supply a patch that allows you to attach arbitary information to a particular test object and transfer it in the result; something like test.add_data(name, data) I guess I would accept that. You could output that data in expectation files in Chromium. But I think you're letting yourself in for a world of pain if later someone does the same thing for something that isn't stable in Chrome and can't be compared using expectation f
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  118. # [01:18] <jyasskin_w> jgraham: Thanks. I should go back to blink-dev to see if folks there have more thoughts. I'm not certain this is the right interface either, but I do think we need _something_.
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  121. # [01:22] <jgraham> I think fundamentally if you want to do this you need your test harness to support test-specific logic that can be used to whitelist the cases where you want to compare the proprietary bits
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  123. # [01:22] <jgraham> If the blink test harness just does byte-by-byte comparisons with expectation files, that's not good enough
  124. # [01:26] <jyasskin_w> Right, it'll break too often, including if we just have different-but-stable messages on two platforms. On the other hand, test.add_data(name, data) does give us the flexibility to write any assertions we need in the harness.
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  147. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> WTF https://github.com/Semantic-Org/Semantic-UI/issues/1526
  148. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> <div class="sixteen wide mobile eight wide tablet four wide computer column">
  149. # [02:19] <Domenic> that's the new craze MikeSmith.
  150. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> Domenic: they're in for some good times with that stuff
  151. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> "'word order significant' class names"
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  153. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> "For me the use of significant class order is an ideological stand."
  154. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> 「Otherwise as programmers how could we possibly define "right"ness, without acknowledging the importance of contextual significance, like "right aligned" or "right floated".」
  155. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> semiotics
  156. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> Cours de linguistique generale
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  159. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/AmpersandJS/amp/issues/52#issuecomment-69646723
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  161. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> 「I think an argument that "the standard says to do X or Y" acts as an appeal to authority and not necessarily an argument for validity. Just like an argument over the morality of the death penalty would be stopped short if we just relied on a de jure argument like, "Well its current (legal/illegal) in my country". 」
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  163. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: seems like a good candidate to recruit as a spec editor
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  216. # [05:24] <psynone> algum brasilero aqui?
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  241. # [07:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: to be fair, that is kind of the way we talk about REC
  242. # [07:25] <annevk> (maybe I'm stretching it a bit)
  243. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I get your point though maybe you are stretching it a bit
  244. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> personally I like stretching things a bit
  245. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> or even beating them into the ground
  246. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> sometimes great insights can emerge from it
  247. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> but if not, at least we get the lulz
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  249. # [07:34] <annevk> At least we're not filling our mornings with ISO discussions like TC39 did apparently
  250. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> well I understand the strategy
  251. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> in that, the rest of the meeting can't get any worse than that
  252. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> who's the actual chair of TC39? Does it have a chair?
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  254. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> as in, who runs the meeting and cuts people off when needed, etc.
  255. # [07:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: John Neumann is the official chair
  256. # [07:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: Brendan Eich de facto in my fairly limited experience
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  258. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> ok
  259. # [07:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: but each meeting has a bit about Ecma and standards formality that mostly died in the nineties, but not in Ecma/TC39
  260. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> that part seriously sounds like fun
  261. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> we don't have enough of that
  262. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> standards meetings should be a bit more like going to Catholic mass
  263. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> like there's the part in the mass where you have to turn around and shake hands with the people sitting behind you, and say, "Peace be with you." And they say, "And also with you."
  264. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> and the singing too
  265. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> DanC tried to introduce more singing
  266. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> to meetings
  267. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> and sorta hippie-ish guitar-playing
  268. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> I liked that
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  294. # [09:59] <annevk> igrigorik: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/93#issuecomment-125770410 is nice, though worker is a ResourceType
  295. # [10:00] <annevk> igrigorik: and we need to distinguish the types of workers I think
  296. # [10:00] <annevk> igrigorik: Initiator makes sense to explain "form", but I'm not sure we need to to beyond that for now. "script" there seems dubious, is invoking new Image(src) script? Invoking <img>.setAttribute()?
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  321. # [11:14] <nox> annevk: Pushed code to this issue #60.
  322. # [11:14] <nox> https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/60
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  329. # [11:43] <annevk> nox: thank you. You already checked for no observable differences, right?
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  331. # [11:45] <nox> annevk: AFAIK there are none but you should check the transient observers step in replace.
  332. # [11:47] <annevk> nox: in remove?
  333. # [11:48] <nox> annevk: Oh yes but I'm commuting. The step about ancestors having subtree observers.
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  336. # [11:49] <nox> Now the order of operations should be the same when appending or replacing all elements of a node without children.
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  339. # Session Close: Wed Jul 29 12:00:46 2015
  340. #
  341. # Session Start: Wed Jul 29 12:00:46 2015
  342. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  343. # [12:00] * Disconnected
  344. # [12:01] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  345. # [12:02] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  346. # [12:02] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  347. # [12:02] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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  370. # [12:31] <annevk> smaug____: I'm trying to figure out https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/34 still
  371. # [12:32] <annevk> smaug____: per https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-node-remove-ext currently we only run that once
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  373. # [12:32] <smaug____> so you go through the tree once, in tree order, and for each operation which might need scripts to run, post a nanotask to call the script?
  374. # [12:32] <annevk> smaug____: the change would be to run it for the inclusive descendants of /node/ during step 8
  375. # [12:32] <smaug____> ah, right
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  377. # [12:32] <annevk> smaug____: however, what should we call the arguments then?
  378. # [12:32] <annevk> smaug____: removedNode, oldAncestor, oldPreviousSibling?
  379. # [12:33] <annevk> smaug____: I can't find oldPreviousSibling as a thing in Gecko
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  381. # [12:33] <annevk> smaug____: also, in relation to oldAncestor, oldPreviousSibling is an odd name
  382. # [12:34] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/Element.cpp#1396 is the insertion case, http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/Element.cpp#1663 is the removing case
  383. # [12:34] <annevk> (I think another difference is that in Gecko UnbindFromTree is on the instance, not a standalone callback, but I'm not going to change that for now.)
  384. # [12:34] <annevk> smaug____: that's only for elements though, not nodes in general
  385. # [12:35] <annevk> smaug____: but yeah, that doesn't seem to keep track of oldPreviousSibling
  386. # [12:35] <smaug____> well, data nodes have similar bind/unbind
  387. # [12:35] <smaug____> annevk: right
  388. # [12:35] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/nsINode.cpp#1679
  389. # [12:35] <annevk> smaug____: and it calls it "oldParent", while it might not be the oldParent of the instance it was invoked on...
  390. # [12:36] <smaug____> annevk: so we call ContentRemoved before unbind
  391. # [12:36] <annevk> What's the difference?
  392. # [12:36] <smaug____> which means one can use nsIMutationObserver if one needs that information
  393. # [12:36] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/nsIMutationObserver.h#257
  394. # [12:37] <annevk> Interesting, so we have several internal callbacks
  395. # [12:37] <smaug____> well, nsIMutationObserver is the callback interface
  396. # [12:38] <smaug____> Bind/Unbind are the actual methods on nodes to do something
  397. # [12:38] <smaug____> I wouldn't call them callbacks
  398. # [12:39] <smaug____> (DOM) MutationObserver is implemented internally as an nsIMutationObserver
  399. # [12:41] <annevk> I think ideally specifications only use one of them
  400. # [12:41] <smaug____> Bind/Unbind set the .parentNode and iterate all the child nodes and so
  401. # [12:41] <annevk> And e.g. https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#nodeiterator needs oldPreviousSibling
  402. # [12:42] <smaug____> NodeIterator in Gecko is also nsIMutationObserver http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/NodeIterator.h?force=1#25
  403. # [12:43] <smaug____> Bind/Unbind implement a part of the node-insert/removal algorithm from the spec, and nsIMutationObserver is then closer to the callbacks we want to add
  404. # [12:43] <annevk> The problem is that mutation observers in Gecko can be synchronous, and the specification doesn't have such a concept
  405. # [12:44] <smaug____> right
  406. # [12:44] <annevk> I guess we could add that concept and some abstract language of using mutation observers here and there...
  407. # [12:45] <annevk> But I think that might be more confusing than always using "insertion steps" and "removing steps" for synchronous operations
  408. # [12:45] <smaug____> spec should talk about something else than "mutation observer", to not confuse with MutationObserver
  409. # [12:45] <smaug____> hmm, what you mean?
  410. # [12:45] <annevk> If the specification "removing steps" did get passed an oldPreviousSibling, is there anything that would be different?
  411. # [12:45] <smaug____> with sync ops?
  412. # [12:46] <annevk> smaug____: for everything where specifications want to react synchronously to the insertion or removal of some node
  413. # [12:46] <annevk> smaug____: e.g. <iframe> or Fullscreen
  414. # [12:46] <smaug____> so you mean nano task stuff
  415. # [12:46] <smaug____> not sync
  416. # [12:46] <annevk> no I don't mean that
  417. # [12:47] <smaug____> sync is something which can't run scripts, right?
  418. # [12:47] <nox> Are we still on insertion/removing steps?
  419. # [12:47] <annevk> smaug____: ideally
  420. # [12:47] <annevk> smaug____: simple example is NodeIterator
  421. # [12:48] <smaug____> ok, so this is spec level stuff
  422. # [12:48] <annevk> smaug____: if we change "removing steps" to be invoked for inclusive descendants, does that a) still work and b) how do we name the arguments sanely
  423. # [12:48] <annevk> smaug____: yeah
  424. # [12:48] <smaug____> I'm now not sure what we're talking about :) spec level sync stuff, or callbacks to JS
  425. # [12:49] <annevk> smaug____: though I suspect the nanotask stuff to come on top
  426. # [12:49] <annevk> smaug____: spec level sync stuff for now
  427. # [12:49] <annevk> nox: yes
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  429. # [12:53] <smaug____> so Gecko does http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/nsINode.cpp#1679, so ContentRemoved is called first on the thing removed, and then UnbindFrom tree is called, and it calls itself recursively on child nodes, and for the removed node and each descendant ParentChainChanged is called separately http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/Element.cpp#1784
  430. # [12:55] <smaug____> so when removing, in the spec, would it make sense to have spec level "callback" for node-removed, and then parentChainChanged for each descendants?
  431. # [12:55] <annevk> Right, I wonder if the simplistic concept the specification has now, combined with it being invoked for descendants, is sufficient even for the cases where Gecko might use a synchronous mutation observer to implement them.
  432. # [12:55] <nox> Aren't you having the same discussion than yesterday?
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  435. # [12:56] <annevk> nox: similar, but not the same
  436. # [13:00] <annevk> smaug____: I'm not sure, would the first be invoked with oldPreviousSibling and the second not? Or some such?
  437. # [13:02] <smaug____> annevk: the second would just tell that parent chain has changed
  438. # [13:03] <smaug____> since for descendants siblings are still the same
  439. # [13:03] <beverloo> annevk, fair :)
  440. # [13:04] <annevk> smaug____: I guess that may be sufficient, I'm unfortunately not familiar with all callers :-/
  441. # [13:04] <annevk> Well, all places that are hooked into this
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  443. # [13:05] <smaug____> let me look at some UnbindFromTree implementations in Gecko. Some elements do override the default one and do something and then call the default one
  444. # [13:06] <smaug____> effectively to have the parentChainChanged call on them
  445. # [13:06] <smaug____> without implementing nsIMutationObserver
  446. # [13:06] <smaug____> nsIMutationObserver in Gecko is meant to be used by other elements or nodelists etc. when the change isn't happening on your object
  447. # [13:07] <annevk> So you're suggesting node::unbind(oldParent, oldPreviousSibling), node::ancestorUnbind()
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  449. # [13:08] <annevk> Oh right, actually defining NodeList, now that would be something...
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  453. # [13:10] <smaug____> sorry, network issues. /me kicks the over-the-forest-under-the-lake phone line
  454. # [13:11] <smaug____> annevk: yeah, unbind on the removed element only, and then parentChainChanged for that and for descendants.
  455. # [13:12] <smaug____> or just node::ancestorUnbind() for descendants
  456. # [13:12] <smaug____> but let me looks some Unbind impls
  457. # [13:12] <annevk> I'm going to email some Google folks too
  458. # [13:14] <smaug____> so UnbindFromTree overrides tend to check whether there is still parent and if not and elements behavior depends on parent, do something. Or, do something because the element isn't in document anymore
  459. # [13:14] <smaug____> so both those could be done based on the parentChainChanged information
  460. # [13:15] <annevk> yeah
  461. # [13:18] <smaug____> one thing some code seems to use is that when UnbindFromTree is called on element which ancestor was in document, the element itself has still the flag "in-document", and that flag is cleared during UnbindFromTree.
  462. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/emilbjorklund/svg-weirdness
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  464. # [13:19] <annevk> smaug____: I've been wondering, is it actually "in-document" or "in-window-associated-document"?
  465. # [13:20] <smaug____> so maybe node::ancestorUnbind() should have a param telling whether the ancestor used to be in-document
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  467. # [13:20] <smaug____> it is in-document in Gecko
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  469. # [13:22] <smaug____> if you need to know in-window-associated-document, just check if(node.ownerDocument.defaultView)
  470. # [13:23] <annevk> that's why it might make sense to pass the ancestor
  471. # [13:24] <annevk> so you can just check it on ancestor
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  473. # [13:26] <smaug____> why would you do that
  474. # [13:26] <smaug____> if you have the information on the node itself
  475. # [13:26] <smaug____> oh, one thing, Gecko calls Bind/Unbind on shadow elements too
  476. # [13:26] <annevk> "maybe node::ancestorUnbind() should have a param telling whether the ancestor used to be in-document"
  477. # [13:27] <annevk> smaug____: composed tree or just going into each attached shadow tree?
  478. # [13:31] <smaug____> oh, I see a bug there for multiple shadow roots
  479. # [13:32] <smaug____> anyhow, it accesses shadowroot and Bind/Unbind all the child nodes of shadowroot
  480. # [13:32] <smaug____> that is implementation detail that shadowroot doesn't need bind/unbind
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  492. # [14:11] <JonathanNeal> Promise.race is similar to Array#every. Is there something like Promise.any similar to Array#some?
  493. # [14:13] <beverloo> Do you mean s/race/all/?
  494. # [14:20] <jgraham> It seems like .race should be similar to .some and .all similar to .every
  495. # [14:20] <jgraham> Unless the names are very misleading
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  504. # [14:58] <annevk> mkwst: fyi: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/93
  505. # [14:59] <annevk> smaug____: okay, so it's just going in without caring about whether the nodes are actually composed or not
  506. # [15:00] <annevk> smaug____: I guess it goes into shadow trees before first child/next sibling?
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  508. # [15:03] <hallvors> jgraham: I can't remember seeing a single compat problem caused by error object's message..
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  516. # [15:36] <smaug____> annevk: in Gecko it goes into shadow tree after non-shadow tree children. Not sure which one should come first.
  517. # [15:38] <annevk> Making up words: inclusive shadow-tree-including-descendants in shadow-post-tree order
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  521. # [15:41] <smaug____> annevk: in Gecko it goes into shadow tree after non-shadow tree children. Not sure which one should come first.
  522. # [15:41] <annevk> smaug____: you were online the first time :-)
  523. # [15:42] <smaug____> ahaa
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  526. # [15:42] <annevk> I didn't say anything intelligent
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  571. # [17:00] <annevk> smaug____: philipj: for mayCancel, I guess if we disable addEventListener() as well as preventDefault() there might be more of a fighting chance
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  573. # [17:00] <annevk> smaug____: philipj: though in that case we need to be wary of events dispatching from the same task (or have the optimization take place inbetween or some such, if that even makes sense)
  574. # [17:01] <smaug____> disable addEventListener?
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  596. # [17:05] <annevk> smaug____: otherwise a mayCancel listener can add a non-mayCancel listener during dispatch
  597. # [17:05] <annevk> (I hope we end up with a better name than mayCancel.)
  598. # [17:06] <annevk> ("passive" sounds rather good actually.)
  599. # [17:06] <smaug____> would it be horrible to make that throw
  600. # [17:06] <smaug____> inside mayCancel == false listener you could add only mayCancel == false listeners
  601. # [17:06] <smaug____> hm
  602. # [17:06] * smaug____ doesn't like that
  603. # [17:07] <annevk> I would just make addEventListener throw
  604. # [17:07] <smaug____> any addEventListener call?
  605. # [17:07] <smaug____> or only for the currently dispatched event type?
  606. # [17:07] <smaug____> or what
  607. # [17:08] <annevk> Only for the passive callback
  608. # [17:08] <smaug____> don't understand
  609. # [17:08] <annevk> The UA can then make an optimization if it only sees passive callbacks
  610. # [17:08] <annevk> Without having to worry about passive callbacks adding new listeners that violate the passiveness
  611. # [17:08] <smaug____> what would throw and when?
  612. # [17:09] <annevk> preventDefault() and addEventListener() would throw during passive listener callbacks
  613. # [17:10] <annevk> Hmm, somehow post-callback microtasks should also be guarded, otherwise there's an escape
  614. # [17:10] <smaug____> addEventListener for any event type?
  615. # [17:11] <annevk> smaug____: I guess you could scope it
  616. # [17:11] <annevk> smaug____: haven't considered the details
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  618. # [17:12] <annevk> smaug____: might depend a bit on how many events are typically dispatched together from one task, something we haven't specified :-(
  619. # [17:12] <smaug____> indeed
  620. # [17:13] <annevk> yay for "passive" meanwhile
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  710. # [18:44] <ccardona-work> Good morning WHATWGians! o/
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  712. # [18:48] <annevk> morning ccardona-work
  713. # [18:48] <ccardona-work> annevk: Good morning *hat tip* 🎩 👽
  714. # [18:49] <annevk> Domenic: humor me, the s/deterministic/consistency/ change would be because we could offer deterministic points in time to invoke the callbacks, but they would simply not be great?
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  716. # [18:50] <annevk> johnme: beverloo: I wonder, is actions your just-before-going-home project?
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  719. # [18:50] <Domenic> annevk: yeah, where "not great" is more precisely that when using createElement You have no children or attributes, but otherwise you do.
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  721. # [18:51] <Domenic> (parsing could be either one; upgrades must have children and attributes)
  722. # [18:51] <annevk> I guess I should reword that so this remains a useful point of reference, thanks
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  725. # [18:51] <Domenic> \o/ thanks
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  729. # [18:59] <johnme> annevk: sorry, just happened to finish addressing the comments now :)
  730. # [19:00] <annevk> johnme: heh, I don't mind at all when you do it
  731. # [19:00] <annevk> Domenic: should be fixed now
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  746. # [19:20] <wanderview> annevk: this is the XHR spec you updated for fetch? https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/
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  752. # [19:26] <annevk> wanderview: that's the only XHR spec still getting updates to my knowledge
  753. # [19:26] <annevk> (yes)
  754. # [19:26] <wanderview> annevk: its the "still getting updates" thats hard for me to infer when searching online
  755. # [19:27] <annevk> "Last Updated 14 July 2015"
  756. # [19:27] <wanderview> annevk: yea... but when searching for a spec... I don't know if I just didn't see one with a newer date, etc
  757. # [19:27] <wanderview> finding "the right spec" kind of sucks
  758. # [19:27] <wanderview> for newbies like me
  759. # [19:27] <annevk> wanderview: I guess the other thing is that if it has spec.whatwg.org in the name, it's the one you want
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  761. # [19:28] <annevk> wanderview: if it has TR/ in the name, highly unlikely
  762. # [19:28] <annevk> wanderview: anything else, proceed with caution
  763. # [19:29] <wanderview> annevk: I'll just use http://www.w3schools.com/xml/xml_http.asp
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  771. # [19:39] <tantek> is linking to w3schools unironically considered trolling?
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  774. # [19:42] <wanderview> tantek: I'm pretty sure I was trying to troll annevk
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  842. # [22:36] <JoWie> should start a whatwgschools
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  845. # [22:37] <zcorpan> whatschools
  846. # [22:44] <caitp> make it happen
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  850. # [22:49] <Domenic> wanderview: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Relevant-spec-links for the right spec is my go-to
  851. # [22:50] <Domenic> I guess XHR isn't there explicitly
  852. # [22:50] <wanderview> Domenic: thanks
  853. # [22:51] <wanderview> also, I would call it w2gschools
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  855. # [23:01] <tantek> whatschools++
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  857. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Domenic, you're welcome ;)
  858. # [23:10] <Domenic> :)
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  861. # [23:23] <gsnedders> wtfschools
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  876. # Session Close: Thu Jul 30 00:00:00 2015

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