/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-08-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 06 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  218. # [09:48] <annevk_> TabAtkins: I agree with Domenic on the arguments thing, I think I said so before
  219. # [09:48] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  220. # [09:49] <annevk> TabAtkins: would love to see existing cases that prove that wrong
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  224. # [09:52] <Ms2ger> Arguments thing?
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  227. # [09:53] <annevk> Ms2ger: that bikeshed treats arguments as if they're definitions
  228. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> Ah
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  268. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> annevk, were you working on something for sites' database quota?
  269. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: https://storage.spec.whatwg.org/#quota I think
  270. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> There we are
  271. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> though there's not much there there at this point
  272. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  273. # [11:57] * Ms2ger wonders if we're going to move Storage into that spec
  274. # [12:05] <annevk> Ms2ger: what is Storage?
  275. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> local/session
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  277. # [12:05] <annevk> We could maybe, would that shrink HTML a lot?
  278. # [12:06] <annevk> The Cache API could move there too maybe
  279. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> I don't know that there's any single piece that would shrink HTML by a lot, compared to its overall size :)
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  282. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> Print preview on the w3c fork says 20 pages or so, for whatever that's worth
  283. # [12:09] <jgraham> That's <5% I think
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  286. # [12:11] <annevk> Yeah, about 2% I suspect
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  303. # [13:10] <annevk> Well, and since it's the fork that likely includes a bunch of boilerplate, so more like 1%...
  304. # [13:10] <annevk> But maybe as with performance every little bit helps?
  305. # [13:11] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
  306. # [13:11] <annevk> TabAtkins: https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/62
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  323. # [14:06] <wanderview> annevk: you around to help me with opaqueredirect?
  324. # [14:07] <wanderview> annevk: I don't see where the fetch algorithm consumes the opaqueredirect to actually do the redirect
  325. # [14:09] <wanderview> annevk: won't the original fetch algorithm that initiated the fetch event end up in the "manual" redirect mode of the 30x handling when an opaqueredirect is returned? thus returning another opaqueredirect?
  326. # [14:09] * Parts: Arcarc (~a@h-4-16.a166.priv.bahnhof.se)
  327. # [14:10] <wanderview> annevk: ultimately I'm trying to understand if an opaqueredirect can result in the navigation triggering a second fetch event
  328. # [14:10] <wanderview> JakeA: maybe you have thoughts about this too ^^^
  329. # [14:12] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
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  331. # [14:22] <JakeA> wanderview: an opaque redirect to a navigation should result in another fetch event
  332. # [14:22] <JakeA> depending on the redirect location
  333. # [14:22] <wanderview> JakeA: depending?
  334. # [14:22] <JakeA> it'll go to the SW that controls the new location, if any
  335. # [14:22] <wanderview> JakeA: is this all "to be spec'd in HTML spec" sort of stuff?
  336. # [14:23] <wanderview> I don't see it currently
  337. # [14:23] <JakeA> So, if a navigation to //origin1/foo/bar returns a redirect to //origin2/baz, the SW which controls //origin2/baz will get the 2nd fetch event
  338. # [14:23] * espadrine_ is now known as espadrine
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  340. # [14:24] <wanderview> I have the feeling this is going to be really hard to implement in gecko
  341. # [14:25] <wanderview> JakeA: thanks
  342. # [14:25] <JakeA> wanderview: so a navigation hits https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-fetch, it gets an opaque redirect from the SW, which survives the checks in 2.2
  343. # [14:26] <wanderview> yep
  344. # [14:26] <JakeA> It doesn't do 5.301.10, because it's manual, not follow
  345. # [14:26] <wanderview> yep
  346. # [14:26] <JakeA> The response is returned to the navigation algo
  347. # [14:27] <wanderview> JakeA: well, does it double wrap as an opaque response then?
  348. # [14:27] <wanderview> but yea
  349. # [14:28] <JakeA> In step 19 of https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#navigating-across-documents, the navigate algo loops back to create a new fetch based on the redirect url
  350. # [14:28] <wanderview> ok... thats the part I was missing
  351. # [14:28] <wanderview> I find the html spec hard to navigate
  352. # [14:29] <JakeA> it's a beast
  353. # [14:30] * wanderview wishes bz was not on vacation...
  354. # [14:31] <wanderview> JakeA: it seems an error that 5.301.11 creates a new opaqueredirect if it already has an opaqueredirect
  355. # [14:31] <hallvors> jgraham: have a moment to look at the last few comments in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=12228 ? TIA!
  356. # [14:32] * wilsonpage-away is now known as wilsonpage
  357. # [14:32] <wanderview> seems like it should just return the existing opaqueredirect
  358. # [14:33] <JakeA> yeah, not sure I fully understand that, annevk usually has a good reason though. He'll be able to clear it up.
  359. # [14:33] <wanderview> JakeA: at least in our impl, we assert that an opaqueredirect doesn't wrap an existing filtered response type
  360. # [14:33] <wanderview> since it breaks the "get unfiltered <value>" semantics... that stuff only looks one level deep
  361. # [14:37] <annevk> wanderview: what is 5.301.11?
  362. # [14:37] <wanderview> annevk: http-fetch step 5, for the 30x series of status codes, step 11
  363. # [14:38] <annevk> wanderview: hmm yes
  364. # [14:40] <annevk> wanderview: I guess another problem is that when you return an opaqueredirect from a service worker when redirect mode is follow
  365. # [14:40] <wanderview> annevk: I don't think that is permitted today
  366. # [14:40] <annevk> wanderview: although I guess that scenario fails in 2.2
  367. # [14:40] <wanderview> annevk: yea
  368. # [14:41] <annevk> still, the whole status code dance should probably operate on the internal response, which would avoid recursive wrapping
  369. # [14:42] <wanderview> JakeA: so if someone is doing read-through-caching... we would expect an opaqueredirect to end up in the Cache... and the following secondary fetch event will result in the final resource being in the Cache too?
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  371. # [14:42] <wanderview> annevk: the restriction for opaqueredirect for navigations seems a bit problematic to me
  372. # [14:43] <JakeA> wanderview: unless they were serving from cache-first, in which case they'd get a redirect loop
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  374. # [14:43] <wanderview> JakeA: hmm... not sure I see where the loop happens
  375. # [14:43] <annevk> wanderview: you'll have to tell me what the problem is
  376. # [14:44] <wanderview> annevk: consider an opaqueredirect gets put in the Cache for navigation... but then the same URL is loaded as *not* a navigation, you will get a failure when its read out of the Cache
  377. # [14:44] <wanderview> annevk: for example, someone visits an img thats served with a redirect
  378. # [14:44] <JakeA> wanderview: no, you're right, it wouldn't loop, sorry
  379. # [14:44] <wanderview> visits the img as a navigation... then loads the page with the img embedded
  380. # [14:46] <annevk> why would the Cache API cache a redirect?
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  382. # [14:47] <JakeA> annevk: if the pattern is cache-after-fetch: User visits '/', fetches, response added to cache
  383. # [14:47] <wanderview> annevk: this pattern: https://jakearchibald.com/2014/offline-cookbook/#on-network-response
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  385. # [14:49] <annevk> Well, not handling manual redirects for navigations causes its own set of problems
  386. # [14:49] <annevk> Pick your poison
  387. # [14:49] <JakeA> I don't think caching a redirect is so bad tbh. If it's temporary maybe. But yeah, developers will need to watch what they cache
  388. # [14:50] <annevk> wanderview: I filed https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/105 on your double wrapping issue
  389. # [14:50] <wanderview> annevk: by why not allow opaqueredirect for non-navigation
  390. # [14:50] <wanderview> ?
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  392. # [14:51] <annevk> wanderview: did you read #66?
  393. # [14:51] <annevk> I think we discussed this
  394. # [14:51] <wanderview> not in its entirety, no
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  396. # [14:51] <wanderview> I can look for the navigation restrict
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  400. # [14:54] <annevk> wanderview: I think https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/66#issuecomment-121192316 discusses it
  401. # [14:55] <annevk> wanderview: the main problem is where the request ends up if the redirect went cross-origin
  402. # [14:55] <annevk> wanderview: that's clear for "manual", not for "follow"
  403. # [14:56] <annevk> It might be worth explaining that in the specification since it's a security restrictions of sorts
  404. # [14:56] <jgraham> hallvors: Donw
  405. # [14:56] <jgraham> *Done
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  407. # [15:00] <annevk> I just received a long private rant about why we have to keep synchronous XMLHttpRequest...
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  409. # [15:00] <jgraham> annevk: Do you have a Sync XHR bingo card yet?
  410. # [15:02] <wanderview> someone probably wrote "for a sync xhr, email annevk" in a bathroom stall somewhere
  411. # [15:02] <annevk> If you're curious, I forwarded the email to the responsible party: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2015Aug/0006.html
  412. # [15:04] <ato> annevk: Millions I tell you. MILLIONS!
  413. # [15:05] <annevk> "Douglas Crockford has likened doing changes like the ones you and your ilk imposed, as being like a physical assault, like cutting people with knives..."
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  415. # [15:09] <TabAtkins> Oh wow, both "nazi" *and* "indian giving". Had to throw in some racism at the end there I guess.
  416. # [15:09] <caitp> imposed?
  417. # [15:10] <caitp> i didn't think anyone actually turned the feature off yet
  418. # [15:11] <ato> Turning off sync XHR would have devastating effects on the web I think, although I can't back that up with data.
  419. # [15:12] <caitp> yeah, it sounds like it's probably not going to happen
  420. # [15:12] <annevk> The warning is there mostly to recommend better practice
  421. # [15:12] <annevk> And it seems to be effective in raising awareness
  422. # [15:13] <TabAtkins> And, I guess, having people with unrelated bugs fly off the handle.
  423. # [15:14] <wanderview> annevk: you could have gotten a short message like he sent this person: http://thehandshakedrugs.tumblr.com/post/22360423717/i-woke-up-to-this-email-this-morning-its-pretty
  424. # [15:15] * wanderview goes on kid duty
  425. # [15:16] <annevk> wanderview: o_O nice detective work
  426. # [15:16] <TabAtkins> omg
  427. # [15:17] <annevk> I missed this gem at the end: "my hate and that of many others will be forever"
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  442. # [15:52] * wanderview resists making a Warhammer joke.
  443. # [15:53] <wanderview> annevk: why is the http-fetch 2.2 check "fail if non-navigation and opaqueredirect" instead of "fail if redirect mode is follow and opaqueredirect"?
  444. # [15:54] <wanderview> annevk: I mean.. why can't code do fetch(url, { redirect: 'manual' }) and get it intercepted with an opaqueredirect?
  445. # [15:57] <annevk> wanderview: well, redirects have tons of security issues around them, I rather keep them closely guarded until we know it's safe
  446. # [15:58] <annevk> wanderview: what's the use case of allowing that?
  447. # [15:58] <annevk> wanderview: we could work through it I suppose and add it if you think that's valuable
  448. # [16:02] <wanderview> annevk: no use case in mind... just trying to understand why we are operating on "navigation" instead of the primitives script can see/reproduce (since we rolled back context for now)
  449. # [16:04] <annevk> wanderview: since it's more restrictive
  450. # [16:04] <annevk> more MVP, if you will
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  455. # [16:28] <annevk> So for whoever is attending TPAC... When you book the Renaissance Sapporo Hotel through Egencia (perhaps Expedia too?) the rates are less than half from what is listed on w3.org and their recommend travel agency...
  456. # [16:29] <annevk> As in, I'm staying six nights for USD ~400
  457. # [16:30] <wilhelm> Yes. I got it cheaper from Hotels.com.
  458. # [16:31] <jgraham> annevk: You're going to get angry mail from W3C management :)
  459. # [16:32] <annevk> jgraham: Film at 11
  460. # [16:32] <wilhelm> I'm arriving in Tokyo on Saturday morning (23rd). Will drink the best cocktails in town that night (you're all invited). Off to Sapporo the next day.
  461. # [16:32] <annevk> I'm arriving Friday morning...
  462. # [16:33] <wilhelm> In Sapporo or Tokyo?
  463. # [16:33] <annevk> Tokyo
  464. # [16:34] <annevk> I'm either staying there until Sunday, or join mnot's road trip idea, but that thread's been kind of silent lately
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  467. # [16:38] <wilhelm> I'll be here all of Saturday night: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2014/06/10/food/meet-willy-wonka-extraordinary-cocktails/ :D
  468. # [16:38] <wilhelm> (The Akasaka branch.)
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  470. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> wilhelm: If you're ever in Seoul, you must go to Le Chamber. Best cocktails I've ever had.
  471. # [16:40] * wilhelm takes notes.
  472. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> (We happened to go the night before the Korean bartending championships, so they had some guest mixers that night who made some *amazing* drinks.)
  473. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> The owners are brothers who have both won the championship, iirc
  474. # [16:41] <wilhelm> Oh, fun.
  475. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> I believe you always need a reservation, at least for a bar seat (which you want).
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  478. # [16:47] <wilhelm> I attended a rather amazing food-and-cocktails pairing dinner at the above-mentioned place last week. The head bartender from Tippling Club in Singapore did the cocktails. That place is hereby recommended by proxy, too.
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  482. # [16:55] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Sat is the 24th?
  483. # [16:56] <wilhelm> gsnedders: Yes.
  484. # [16:56] <gsnedders> wilhelm: silly wilhelm, can't you even date?
  485. # [16:56] <wilhelm> Eh, mistyped.
  486. # [16:56] <wilhelm> No.
  487. # [16:56] <wilhelm> Because timezones.
  488. # [16:56] <gsnedders> …that sounded more questionable than I meant.
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  501. # [17:26] <wanderview> JakeA: annevk: if a navigation triggers a fetch event, then fetch event does nothing (does not call respondWith()), then the normal browser processing hits a redirect, should a second fetch event be triggered in that case?
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  503. # [17:26] <wanderview> or only a second fetch event if an opaqueredirect is hit?
  504. # [17:27] <JakeA> Second fetch event, targeted at the controller of the new url
  505. # [17:27] <wanderview> JakeA: even if the controller is the same as the first fetch event? (same origin/scope)
  506. # [17:28] <JakeA> wanderview: yep!
  507. # [17:28] <wanderview> ok
  508. # [17:28] * wanderview is beginning to think taking this bug was a mistake.
  509. # [17:28] <JakeA> wanderview: if I respondWith(Request.redirect('/')) to a navigation, I'd expect another fetch event too
  510. # [17:29] <wanderview> JakeA: but only for navigations, right?
  511. # [17:29] <wanderview> or manual redirect flag
  512. # [17:29] <wanderview> JakeA: Request.redirect('/') is not an opaqueredirect, right?
  513. # [17:31] <JakeA> wanderview: I'd expect another fetch if the original request was manual-redirect, and the initiating algo reacts to redirects by starting a whole new fetch (which is navigations, there may be others)
  514. # [17:31] <JakeA> wanderview: Request.redirect('/') is just a Response
  515. # [17:32] <wanderview> JakeA: so I guess if a script does fetch(url, { redirect: 'manual' }) they could detect the 30x status code and do a new fetch()
  516. # [17:32] <JakeA> annevk: would it be useful to start a ticket for drafting the patches to HTML regarding fetch?
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  518. # [17:42] <wanderview> JakeA: do you consider this new redirect behavior v1 or v2 for service workers?
  519. # [17:42] <wanderview> should I be concerned about being incompatible if chrome waits to implement?
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  523. # [17:53] <JakeA> wanderview: Google docs hit a problem where, on navigation, their SW would fetch the page, but it'd hit a redirect to the (other origin) login page. If they served this they'd get an error. They could work around it by making a no-cors fetch and assuming an opaque response was a redirect, and issue the redirect themselves, but then they're downloading the
  524. # [17:53] <JakeA> login page twice
  525. # [17:54] <JakeA> The changes to redirect were to handle this case
  526. # [17:54] <JakeA> So, without these changes, offline may fail in Google Docs, so I guess it depends on how much that matters
  527. # [18:09] <annevk> wanderview: yeah, because of manual and each request being fresh
  528. # [18:09] <annevk> JakeA: yeah sounds fine
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  539. # [18:22] <wanderview> JakeA: well... from the issue comments the chrome impl team were a bit surprised by the changes... so I was wondering if it was going to be implemented later, etc
  540. # [18:23] <wanderview> not a priority or something
  541. # [18:23] <JakeA> wanderview: Docs are a pretty high priority customer for us, so pretty sure it'll get done with pretty high priority
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  547. # [18:27] <wanderview> JakeA: annevk: do we need Request.context sorted before integrating with other specs?
  548. # [18:27] <wanderview> or I guess its not hard to change later... just might be more work to roto-till the other specs twice
  549. # [18:27] <annevk> wanderview: we'd just not define it for now I guess
  550. # [18:27] <annevk> I should have made a proposal for that today
  551. # [18:27] <annevk> forgot
  552. # [18:27] <JakeA> although CSP has kinda defined most of them
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  556. # [18:35] <ccardona-work> Good morning WHATWG crew o/
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  592. # [19:22] <wanderview> annevk: any chance you want to put http-fetch step 4, 30x case, step 11 before the "follow" steps? short circuiting the short path is nicer when implementing
  593. # [19:22] <wanderview> minor nit
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  602. # [19:33] <annevk> wanderview: file an issue?
  603. # [19:33] <annevk> wanderview: seems fine
  604. # [19:33] <wanderview> ok
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  607. # [19:39] <wanderview> annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/107
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  625. # [20:10] <miketaylr> i need a better test word when trying to figure out how bikeshed works https://github.com/whatwg/compat/commit/2530dc6adcbd46f88f61c662501ff2ea81ba8ebf
  626. # [20:11] <miketaylr> >_<
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  642. # [20:37] <caitp> so, what is the/an "associated url" of URLSearchParams?
  643. # [20:37] <caitp> a hack of URLs that have a reference to it?
  644. # [20:37] <caitp> hash*
  645. # [20:38] <caitp> "run these steps for each associated url object urlObject" --- i assume that's like a weakmap that gets added to on assignment or something
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  652. # [20:56] <caitp> annevk: if you're still around, am I reading that right? we have this sort of URLSearchParams-looking polyfill in angular2, and if it's too complicated to actually polyfill correctly, or we end up wanting different behaviour, I'd like to clarify that asap
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  675. # [21:34] <annevk> caitp: we will probably make it 1:1 instead
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  677. # [21:34] <annevk> caitp: need to check if the change in Mozilla sticked around
  678. # [21:35] <caitp> but during the update step, any original search query stuck on the associated url is replaced right?
  679. # [21:36] <annevk> sure
  680. # [21:37] <caitp> Jeff Cross at google is saying that's probably not very good for our use cases, so i guess we can't leverage the native URLSearchParams if available :( oh well
  681. # [21:38] <annevk> caitp: he should file an issue against the URL spec
  682. # [21:39] <annevk> caitp: if it's not meeting someone's needs I'd like to know
  683. # [21:41] <caitp> maybe another method like URLSearchParams.prototype.append(urlSearchParams) { /* update current fields with new ones or different ones */ } might work better for us, we could probably leverage that
  684. # [21:42] <caitp> anyway I'll let him know he can file
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  702. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> caitp: Note the possible semantic confusion - when there's a collision, are you adding your values, or replacing them?
  703. # [22:14] <caitp> yeah, i renamed that idea to .merge() in PM with jeff
  704. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> So adding?
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  707. # [22:16] <caitp> that's a hard semantic to really figure out :|
  708. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> Because there's no single right answer!
  709. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Thus why MultiMaps expose API for manipulating their values as a list *or* as a single value, depending on what your particular model is for the keys.
  710. # [22:17] <caitp> but the primitive of doing it manually by iterating over each field and deciding on a key by key basis, kind of sucks too
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  713. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sure. Just means that we need *two* update methods (like we have .set() and .append(), and .get() and .getAll()) with names that suggest the right behavior as clearly as possible.
  714. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> Like updateReplace() and updateAppend() (using "update" because it's the Python name for the operation)
  715. # [22:22] <caitp> well, already got set/add/delete, how about merge(object, optionalSchema) :x
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  719. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> You only listed a subset of the operations, and mixed the two modes together in doing so. I'm confused...
  720. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> We'd got get/set (for treating it as a Map) and getAll/append (for treating it as a MultiMap). has/delete work the same in either type, so they're not duplicated.
  721. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> So for merging in another map, you need both a Map version (replaces collisions) and a MultiMap version (appends collisions).
  722. # [22:28] <caitp> so, if one key in your Map has a List value, and another key in your Map has a String value, you may want to append to one, and replace the other
  723. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Then you have to do it manually, because you're being complicated.
  724. # [22:30] <caitp> well it is complicated, but nobody would want to write instructions for multiple query parameters that need to be merged with some default query parameters specified somewhere else, if they could simply write up a frozen schema and just reuse it, right?
  725. # [22:30] <caitp> that seems more friendly
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  727. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> It's quite trivial to package that up yourself in a method on your own, so you just have to pass in the two maps and get the result. I don't think there's enough call for "mixed" maps to justify specifying a schema, *particularly* not if you're suggesting using that *instead of* providing the two simple Map/MultiMap variants.
  728. # [22:32] <caitp> alright, not a fan of the idea, I get that =)
  729. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> It's super easy to write a function that does this automatically based on whether the key ends in [], a la PHP, too.
  730. # [22:36] <caitp> yeah but there are problems with that :( certain php authors assume that every client and backend understands that notation
  731. # [22:37] <caitp> ah well, can't spend too much time on this discussion, but maybe someone who has more time to think it through will float a proposal at whatwg/url
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  736. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I didn't mean it as some universal baked into a spec, just as something you could do within a project to enable a generalized function for merging url search params, rather than having to write individual ones for each different search param pattern, or write up a separate schema for each pattern.
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