/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-08-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 17 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:09] <Domenic> Trying to get the web platform tests to pass has led to a bunch of discoveries
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  22. # [01:34] <Sebmaster> annevk: i somehow can't parse the sentence/conditions at https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#file-state > otherwise > 1; what's the intent there?
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  31. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> Domenic: about not getting how to stop the critic-bot e-mail for a wpt PR, did you try the "Exclude me, please!" button at https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5726
  32. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> maybe that won't work if you're the owner
  33. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> if not, maybe you can try the "Edit owners" button and remove yourself
  34. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> if none of that works, you can rebase and force-push the branch, or do something else that rewrites history for the branch, and force-push it
  35. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> because critic will choke and that and stop tracking the branch
  36. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> short of those I don't know any other way to disassociate yourself from a critic review, or to disassociate the critic review from a PR
  37. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> but jgraham may know
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  69. # [06:13] <cvrebert> botie: any news?
  70. # [06:13] <botie> cvrebert: no idea
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  91. # [07:40] <annevk> Sebmaster: I guess I should use some bullet points
  92. # [07:42] <annevk> Sebmaster: what it wants to do is prevent copying host and base's path if input starts with a Windows drive letter followed by nothing or some delimiter
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  117. # [09:31] <annevk> philipj: https://github.com/whatwg/fullscreen/issues/17
  118. # [09:31] <annevk> Domenic: if we did URL comparison with options, URL.is(1, 2, options)?
  119. # [09:31] <annevk> Domenic: and if we did host comparison with options, URL.hostIs(1, 2, options)?
  120. # [09:31] <annevk> Domenic: or is Object.is really the worst?
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  144. # [11:36] <annevk> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=517819 at the top says "Google Code will be turning read-only on August 25th. See this post for more information."
  145. # [11:36] <annevk> Is chromium special cased?
  146. # [11:36] <annevk> Ah, it is
  147. # [11:37] <annevk> Although that only lists chromium and android, not e.g., v8
  148. # [11:38] * annevk finds the need for "non-Windows path-absolute file URL"
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  152. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> if I want to compare instances of two objects without concern about their prototypes, JSON.stringify is an OK way to to that, right?
  153. # [12:26] <espadrine> not if they have reference cycles in them, or anything that doesn't serialize well
  154. # [12:29] <Ms2ger> Or anything with things on the prototype
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  157. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: to be clear, the context is the wpt PR I raised from replacing a few of the simple cases of assert_object_equals, and for those I think they could better have been written from the beginning just using a JSON.stringify comparison (or for one case, just using assert_equals, because it was just comparing to null anyway)
  158. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I think all the cases we have/had in the suite that I've looked at so far didn't need to begin with to be using a strict comparison like assert_object_equals attempted to be
  159. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> espadrine: I don't know what it means for an object to have to reference cycles in it
  160. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> unless that means somethign other than in the GC sense
  161. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> well, then I still don't know what that would mean
  162. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> I thought JSON.stringify just serializes what the object exposes to you programmatically
  163. # [12:44] <espadrine> a = {b: {a: null}}; a.b.a = a; JSON.stringify(a)
  164. # [12:44] <espadrine> Exception: TypeError: cyclic object value
  165. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> ah
  166. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> yeah we're not doing anything like that
  167. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> in the test cases I'm looking at, I mean
  168. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> they're not tests for pathological cases
  169. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> they're just normal things where the test case is constructing some set of data and then comparing it to an object that representswhat the expected data is supposed to be
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  172. # [12:54] <annevk> MikeSmith: what's the purpose of assert_object_equals?
  173. # [12:57] <annevk> I think my main gripe with Bikeshed at the moment is that the output is so much uglier than ReSpec, making it much harder to review generated HTML
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  175. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think it was intended to be a way provide a strict comparison of two objects, for tests that needed to do that for some reason
  176. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: but it doesn't actually do that, which is why it's being removed
  177. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> also, it turns out that there aren't really any tests that need to do a strict object comparison
  178. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> at least not that I've seen so far
  179. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> so instead the method ended up getting used to do comparisons that it wasn't really needed for, and that some other comparison could be used for instead
  180. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: what's uglier about Bikeshed output? Lack of indenting or line breaks or what?
  181. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> (assuming you mean the formatting of the HTML source)
  182. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> if it's just stuff like that, that seems easy enough to add some step to Bikeshed to prettify it
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  185. # [13:21] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: JSON.stringify doesn't guarantee serialisation order is constant, AFAIK
  186. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah foolip noted that also
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  191. # [13:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: isn't assert_equals that already?
  192. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: no
  193. # [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: Bikeshed does its own serialization, but it doesn't really remove whitespace from the input where it can, so the output is just ugly
  194. # [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: at least for stuff I write...
  195. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> does Bikeshed also use its own parser?
  196. # [13:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: html5lib, iirc
  197. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> then I wonder why it doesn't just use the html5lib serializer
  198. # [13:58] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Because it didn't serialize <wbr> correctly, iirc
  199. # [14:00] <TabAtkins> I feel like there was another reason too
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  201. # [14:01] <annevk> It's more than that though, Bikeshed seems to actively change indentation and such too
  202. # [14:01] <annevk> Perhaps in part due to it supporting Markdown like stuff mixed with HTML?
  203. # [14:03] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and it dues a terrible job with it too. Need to weigh in that more.
  204. # [14:03] <TabAtkins> *work on
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  207. # [14:06] <annevk> TabAtkins: btw, is it possible to change the order of the sections?
  208. # [14:07] <annevk> TabAtkins: for WHATWG stuff it really makes sense to have Acknowledgments last
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  210. # [14:10] <TabAtkins> Ugh, it would be annoying to make the boilerplate generate not-at-the-end.
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  222. # [15:02] <krijnhoetmerbot> Domenic, Ms2ger: yeah, sorry about that (logs over http, not https)
  223. # [15:02] * krijnhoetmerbot is now known as krijnhoetmer
  224. # [15:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: is there any way to link from syntax diagrams?
  225. # [15:05] <annevk> TabAtkins: I guess it's not strictly needed in my case, but since SVG supports links it seems nicer
  226. # [15:13] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: we don't serialise <wbr> correctly? why haven't we fixed that?
  227. # [15:20] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  228. # [15:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: you around?
  229. # [15:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm playing with railroad diagrams and they look cool
  230. # [15:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: but it seems they need a lot of prose around them before they start making sense
  231. # [15:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: I was kind of hoping to just use them to illustrate the grammar, but it seems I can't even name the diagram without resorting to some outside markup
  232. # [15:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: and then I can't link pieces together...
  233. # [15:24] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  234. # [15:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: summary here: https://github.com/whatwg/url/issues/67
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  240. # [16:12] <TabAtkins> annevk: Sorry, still in the middle of traveling.
  241. # [16:12] <annevk> TabAtkins: no worries, let me know whenever you're back, none of this is in a great hurry
  242. # [16:12] <TabAtkins> There are ways to link, but they aren't documented right now.
  243. # [16:12] <annevk> TabAtkins: Chris Lord's Navigation Transition stuff is higher priority than any of my Bikeshed stuff :-)
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  246. # [16:15] <TabAtkins> Kk 😀
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  250. # [16:20] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I can't see any bug report or anything about <wbr> :(
  251. # [16:20] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@159.180.228.142)
  252. # [16:23] <TabAtkins> I reported it to you in person iirc
  253. # [16:24] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: bah!
  254. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> You serialize an end tag for it
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  256. # [16:33] <annevk> if that was all the reason you needed to write your own serializer...
  257. # [16:34] <annevk> it seems someone should just patch https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/blob/master/html5lib/constants.py#L487 and that'd be fixed
  258. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Just looked it up, the reason i did it originally was to get newlines in my generated code.
  259. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/commit/a4a4c5bded724c604234f8333f5d6d0e7851d9ce
  260. # [16:37] <annevk> gsnedders: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/203
  261. # [16:38] <annevk> (is the issue for void elements not being up-to-date, even has <event-source> :-))
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  264. # [16:42] <gsnedders> annevk: takk
  265. # [16:42] <gsnedders> annevk: I think we've normally been better with /adding/ elements than removing them
  266. # [16:43] <annevk> looks like it, I doubt there's many people that remember <event-source>
  267. # [16:48] <Domenic> annevk: URL.is and hostIs seems OK... Not obviously correct or obviously wrong. Maybe public-script-coord it?
  268. # [16:50] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: where do yoiu want new lines?
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  271. # [17:00] <annevk> Domenic: done
  272. # [17:00] <annevk> Domenic: nobody else seems to really use that list :-/
  273. # [17:01] <Domenic> annevk: that's why I love it :p
  274. # [17:02] <annevk> Domenic: I'll remind you next time you see Chrome shipping a shitty API
  275. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> annevk: .is() is commonly used as an identity check
  276. # [17:05] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@159.180.228.142) (Remote host closed the connection)
  277. # [17:06] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Everywhere, just formatting HTML like you would by hand, with newlines and indents.
  278. # [17:07] <annevk> TabAtkins: but that breaks so badly if the input was already formatted well
  279. # [17:07] <annevk> TabAtkins: you should just have added newlines to the auto-generated HTML/tree stuff
  280. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, I can fix it, I just haven't yet
  281. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> And omg no, I am absolutely not shitting newlines and indents all over my code.
  282. # [17:09] <TabAtkins> I'm building stuff with DOM methods, manually handling code formatting would be the worst thing ever
  283. # [17:10] <annevk> just append some newlines here and there
  284. # [17:11] <annevk> the way you do it now, if the input contains newlines, you get a mess
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  286. # [17:13] <annevk> I mean, it's exactly as you say, you're shitting newlines and indents all over my code
  287. # [17:13] <annevk> (And closing tags.)
  288. # [17:13] <annevk> And the closing tags come after the newlines, it's all kinds of terrible the current setup is.
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  298. # [17:34] <wanderview> JakeA: thanks for writing the bug
  299. # [17:36] * wanderview notices ms2ger is in firefox's dictionary...
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  301. # [17:37] <JakeA> no worries! Odd to see both the latest version of Firefox and Safari regress, I wonder if it's just coincidence.
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  304. # [17:43] <wanderview> JakeA: did you try running your tests in workers as well? I bet its even more messed up
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  307. # [17:44] <JakeA> wanderview: hah, I didn't. I guess I didn't expect them to be different
  308. # [17:45] <wanderview> JakeA: I believe they have different implementations, at least in gecko...
  309. # [17:46] <wanderview> for example, we have a thing to free the worker thread while we perform work on the main thread
  310. # [17:46] * wanderview throws up a little
  311. # [17:46] * jgraham wonders which tests these are
  312. # [17:47] <wanderview> jgraham: https://twitter.com/wanderview/status/633288790082240512
  313. # [17:50] <Ms2ger> JakeA, yeah, jgraham and I can help
  314. # [17:50] <Ms2ger> There's also http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
  315. # [17:50] <JakeA> Will give those a read, cheers!
  316. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> JakeA, if there's anything that's unclear there, write it down :)
  317. # [17:53] <jgraham> Yeah, this is *super* good stuff to submit tests on. Not least because there's an interop fail, but also because as you note it's a subtle hazard that will cause sites to fail for obscure reasons
  318. # [17:53] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  319. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> (jsbell used to be at MS?)
  320. # [17:54] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  321. # [17:58] <jgraham> Speaking of Microsoft
  322. # [17:58] <jgraham> I'm 2 hours in to running web-platform-tests in Edge
  323. # [17:58] <jgraham> Reached html/obsolete so far
  324. # [18:02] <jgraham> Oh now I reached the tests that make a sound
  325. # [18:02] <jgraham> Either that or a bird got in when I wasn't looking
  326. # [18:02] <darobin> the sound tests should use more cowbell
  327. # [18:04] * jgraham sends darobin to the naughty step
  328. # [18:04] <darobin> the naughty step?
  329. # [18:04] <darobin> that's not a punishment I'm familiar with
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  331. # [18:12] <Domenic> annevk: I am pretty sure https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25981 is all about integration with ES initialization, not with the ES job queue. Is there another bug about microtasks vs. jobs?
  332. # [18:13] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@d54C1541E.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  333. # [18:13] <annevk> Domenic: that bug mentions jobs a whole lot though. Seems like it might be all intertwined?
  334. # [18:14] <Domenic> annevk: no, it's basically saying "work around the job queue stuff while initializing."
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  343. # [18:35] <JakeA> Is there a way that two user-opened tabs can start synchronously communicating? Trying to work out why they must share an event loop
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  345. # [18:36] <wanderview> JakeA: localstorage?
  346. # [18:36] <JakeA> wanderview: aha! Thanks
  347. # [18:36] <wanderview> JakeA: but someone at mozilla has patches to give windows their own event loop... not sure why its never landed
  348. # [18:37] <JakeA> It might be localstorage as you say
  349. # [18:37] * Quits: micahf (~micah@50-93-254-226.fttp.usinternet.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  350. # [18:39] <wanderview> JakeA: I guess chrome gets separate event loops due to each tab having its own process?
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  352. # [18:41] <JakeA> wanderview: I wonder if it's process-per-site rather than process-per-tab. This sounds like something I really should know
  353. # [18:42] <jgraham> I imagine it's process per unit of related-origin browsing context, or whatever the spec term is
  354. # [18:42] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@159.180.228.142) (Remote host closed the connection)
  355. # [18:42] <JakeA> wanderview: Chromium has this tool (can't remember its name) that lets you bisect stuff, it launches Chromium with a particular url, then on close it asks if something worked/failed, then loads the next version until it finds the commit. Does Gecko have anything like this?
  356. # [18:42] * Joins: micahf (~micah@50-93-254-226.fttp.usinternet.com)
  357. # [18:43] <jgraham> mozregression
  358. # [18:43] <wanderview> JakeA: we have an auto-bisect tool... I haven't used it directly... I can try to find the wiki
  359. # [18:43] <wanderview> what jgraham said
  360. # [18:43] <JakeA> ohh ta
  361. # [18:44] <jgraham> also window.open() can give you multiple top-level browsing contexts that can communicate
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  363. # [18:45] <wanderview> jgraham: yea, but can they communicate synchronously
  364. # [18:45] <wanderview> postMessage is async
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  366. # [18:47] <JakeA> jgraham: how do I convert a Firefox version into a date for mozregression, is it the release date?
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  370. # [18:49] <wanderview> JakeA: its every 6 weeks in general, but the exact date/time can vary by a day or so
  371. # [18:49] * wanderview tries to find out
  372. # [18:49] <jgraham> JakeA: Look in "about firefox" under help
  373. # [18:50] <jgraham> (the (?) icon in the dropdown menu)
  374. # [18:50] <wanderview> JakeA: search for strings like FIREFOX_39 here: http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-release/
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  377. # [18:51] <JakeA> jgraham: that only has the version number on OSX anyway. Looks like wanderview's solution works
  378. # [18:51] <JakeA> Ta!
  379. # [18:51] <wanderview> FIREFOX_39_0 for first release, for example... or FIREFOX_39_0_3 for 39.0.3 chemspill release
  380. # [18:51] <jgraham> Oh, right I guess it wouldn't tell you when it branched
  381. # [18:52] <jgraham> JakeA: Oh, use --good-release and --bad-release
  382. # [18:52] <jgraham> http://mozilla.github.io/mozregression/documentation/usage.html
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  384. # [18:53] <JakeA> perfect, thanks!
  385. # [18:53] <annevk> Domenic: it seems a bunch of it is about the event loop too
  386. # [18:54] <Domenic> annevk: it is about initializing the event loop. I am 95% certain on this.
  387. # [18:54] <Domenic> annevk: notice how e.g. it doesn't mention microtasks at all.
  388. # [18:54] <annevk> Domenic: I noticed that, that's certainly curious
  389. # [18:54] <annevk> Domenic: I guess you need this first, and then build microtasks on top
  390. # [18:54] <Domenic> there is a separate set of work that needs to be done to integrate microtasks and jobs
  391. # [18:54] <Domenic> maybe
  392. # [18:54] <Domenic> i think they might be independent
  393. # [18:55] <annevk> Domenic: but it would sure be easier if ECMAScript just let the host language define some callbacks
  394. # [18:55] <Domenic> this bug is more about working around allen's crazy model of ES environment initialization
  395. # [18:55] <Domenic> I don't think that's true for microtasks + jobs
  396. # [18:55] <Domenic> I think that is true for initialization
  397. # [18:55] <Domenic> We'll see
  398. # [18:55] <Domenic> I'll try writing a patch soon
  399. # [19:06] <annevk> Ugh https://github.com/github/github-services/issues/964
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  401. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic: I think https://esdiscuss.org/topic/the-initialization-steps-for-web-browsers#content-5 in particular is why it's complicated
  402. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic: in ECMAScript everything is a job, including running script
  403. # [19:13] <Domenic> Yes
  404. # [19:15] <caitp> do you think it would ever be possible to make it less complicated
  405. # [19:17] <annevk> caitp: I think if ECMAScript delegated more to the host it could be pretty straightforward
  406. # [19:18] <annevk> caitp: it's the host having to intertwine itself into ECMAScript and modify its core algorithms that makes this rather messy and involved
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  429. # [20:27] * Parts: ChALkeR (~chalker@nat-1-33.msu.umos.ru) ("Konversation terminated!")
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  437. # [20:56] * chrisdickinson_ is now known as chrisdickinson
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  491. # [23:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.179.176.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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  494. # Session Close: Tue Aug 18 00:00:00 2015

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