/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 18 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:17] <jgraham> Well eventually it took 8 hours to run the web-platform-tests in IE
  14. # [00:17] <jgraham> Erm, Edge
  15. # [00:18] <jgraham> Mainly because the harness kept killing and restarting the browser, to be fair
  16. # [00:22] <Domenic> How's it doing
  17. # [00:24] <jgraham> Well, I don't know, I need some better way to compare multiple log files
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  36. # [01:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: through wptrunner, I presume?
  37. # [01:21] <jgraham> Yeah
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  48. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> it's actually great just to hear that you have wptrunner working at all already with Edge
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  178. # [10:44] <annevk> Seems like a bit of a bug that HTML's syntax section doesn't describe <template> as as special kind of element
  179. # [10:48] <gsnedders> annevk: which subsection? the writing HTML? or…?
  180. # [10:48] <gsnedders> annevk: because it's in the list of special elements
  181. # [10:49] <annevk> gsnedders: yeah, writing talks about five different kinds of elements
  182. # [10:49] <annevk> gsnedders: <template> ends up classified as Normal
  183. # [10:50] <annevk> But maybe syntax-wise it is indeed normal, just seems a bit odd
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  195. # [11:39] <nox> annevk: I think I saw somewhere template qualified as special.
  196. # [11:39] <nox> annevk: Weird that you would mention this, I just started implementing it in html5ever. :)
  197. # [11:39] <annevk> nox: for the parser it's special
  198. # [11:39] <annevk> nox: for syntax it's not
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  200. # [11:40] <annevk> which was the weird part for me :-)
  201. # [11:40] <nox> Where is the syntax part?
  202. # [11:40] <nox> That's not it? https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#the-stack-of-open-elements:stack-of-open-elements-4
  203. # [11:43] <annevk> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#elements-2
  204. # [11:46] <nox> annevk: I see. I guess they aren't special from that POV, right?
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  209. # [11:55] <JakeA> annevk: did DOM promises use microtasks?
  210. # [11:55] <annevk> JakeA: nope
  211. # [11:56] <annevk> nox: I guess not
  212. # [11:56] <JakeA> annevk: tasks instead?
  213. # [11:56] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, but nobody ever implemented from that specification
  214. # [11:56] <annevk> JakeA: the problem is ES15
  215. # [11:57] <JakeA> cool, just getting an impression of the history. Microsoft have asked that I make it clear in my blogpost that they're not "wrong", because it isn't specced that promises should be microtasks
  216. # [11:57] <nox> ES15?
  217. # [11:57] <nox> Did I miss 9 revisions of it?
  218. # [11:57] <annevk> nox: "proper" name for ES6
  219. # [11:58] <annevk> JakeA: well they have a point in that the specifications are unclear, but they also never asked so they're wrong as far as being engaged goes
  220. # [11:58] <nox> annevk: Your scare quotes are scary. ;)
  221. # [11:59] <annevk> nox: heh, I just meant to indicate I think renaming ECMAScript 6 to ECMAScript 2015 was rather silly
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  223. # [12:00] <nox> annevk: So I missed 2006 revisions?!
  224. # [12:00] <nox> :P
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  226. # [12:01] <annevk> 2009*
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  237. # [12:42] <JakeA> annevk: on task queues… having different queues is mentioned in the spec, but when a task is queued it doesn't really say what queue it goes into. Is this a UA free-for-all?
  238. # [12:43] <annevk> JakeA: often specifications have a default task queue
  239. # [12:43] <annevk> JakeA: so it might be mentioned someplace else
  240. # [12:44] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps we should change that convention though, since it's rather vague
  241. # [12:44] <annevk> I think it might be better if we always had "Queue a task on /task queue/ to do X"
  242. # [12:44] <JakeA> Ahh I see, IDB specifies its own task source etc
  243. # [12:44] <JakeA> Agreed
  244. # [12:45] <JakeA> Or at least, I'd have found that easier to follow
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  246. # [12:48] <annevk> Yeah, also, a lot of specification authors forget about task sources...
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  296. # [14:34] <annevk> JakeA: btw, as for processes, it's basically a process per https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#unit-of-related-similar-origin-browsing-contexts
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  299. # [14:35] <annevk> JakeA: different tabs can be different processes, even with localStorage, but you'll get race conditions in implementations that don't do storage mutex (Chrome, and every other implementation that will get processes, since I don't think anyone wants to implement that mutex thing)
  300. # [14:36] <JakeA> ahh gotcha, cheers!
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  319. # [14:49] <annevk> Hmm, URLUtils is even more messed up than I thought :-(
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  323. # [14:50] <nox> annevk: Hah.
  324. # [14:50] <nox> annevk: What's the problem this time?
  325. # [14:50] <annevk> I think the parser overrides effectively have to go...
  326. # [14:51] <annevk> Since modifying the underlying URL is not how this works at all...
  327. # [14:52] <annevk> The URL Standard has had that design since 2012 and nobody noticed...
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  389. # [16:59] <annevk> I can probably get away by making some changes to the URL parser and keeping the modification of the underlying URL
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  403. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> Anyone know a dictionary with a non-nullable interface member?
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  405. # [17:26] <annevk> Ms2ger: most of the dictionaries I design these days don't have one
  406. # [17:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#requestinit
  407. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> annevk: Shitting newlines and indents all over my *code* would be terrible. I'd have to take tons of easy, simple appendChild() calls and sprinkle "\n"s around, and let's not even talk about indentation. It's absolutely not a simple thing to do, and it would massively reduce code readability in those parts.
  408. # [17:32] <annevk> But instead you're doing it for everyone else their code
  409. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> I agree that the current HTML output isn't ideal; like I said, I have an issue to fix it up. But that's an output file. ^_^
  410. # [17:33] <annevk> The output file is what gets rendered, so it's fairly important to review
  411. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> I virtually never look at the actual raw HTML. When I review, I do it on the rendered output.
  412. # [17:34] <annevk> I guess that's where we differ
  413. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> Sure. And like I said, I've no problem with fixing it.
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  433. # [17:44] <wanderview> annevk: the username and password components of a URL are different from the Request.credentials attribute, right?
  434. # [17:46] <annevk> wanderview: yes
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  438. # [17:46] <annevk> wanderview: note that username/password are forbidden in fetch()
  439. # [17:46] <annevk> wanderview: at least when you pass in a URL
  440. # [17:47] <wanderview> annevk: oh? I can't create a Request with them?
  441. # [17:47] <annevk> wanderview: step 13, substep 3
  442. # [17:49] * wanderview files a bug
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  444. # [17:50] <SimonSapin> What should html5lib do with <template>, ideally? Provide separate subtrees?
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  448. # [17:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes
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  450. # [17:53] <wanderview> annevk: so to test that we block username/password during interception with redirection and CORS mode... I need to use XHR or a navigation or something?
  451. # [17:53] <wanderview> I guess not a navigation
  452. # [17:53] <wanderview> since thats manual
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  455. # [17:57] <SimonSapin> annevk: Thanks. A contributor is implementing it for html5ever :)
  456. # [17:57] <annevk> wanderview: no, because it's about the contents of the Location header
  457. # [17:57] <annevk> wanderview: which are not constrained by the Request constructor
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  459. # [17:57] <SimonSapin> oh hi nox
  460. # [17:58] <annevk> wanderview: I should update that line though to use "include credentials"
  461. # [17:58] <wanderview> annevk: oh, I see!
  462. # [17:58] <nox> SimonSapin: Hello there.
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  464. # [17:58] * nox is said contributor.
  465. # [17:59] <wanderview> annevk: the credentials in the location URL are ok for a manual redirect? they will show in the opaqueredirect URL?
  466. # [17:59] <wanderview> no... will still be opaqueredirect's Location header
  467. # [17:59] <wanderview> which is filtered
  468. # [17:59] <wanderview> but the navigation will see it
  469. # [18:00] <wanderview> right?
  470. # [18:00] <annevk> wanderview: the navigate algorithm will see it
  471. # [18:00] <annevk> wanderview: I suppose it might allow them, too
  472. # [18:01] <Domenic> annevk: regarding https://github.com/whatwg/url/issues/62#issuecomment-132202394 I don't have any concrete suggestions, but are you sure that you're not just irrationally attached to the "internal URL" concept, even though it might not work that well?
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  474. # [18:01] <Domenic> E.g., have you checked what browsers do? It sounds like they are significantly more lazy, with less internal fields
  475. # [18:01] <wanderview> thanks... this stuff is confusing
  476. # [18:02] <annevk> Domenic: I think it makes sense to keep it for URL/Location/WorkerLocation
  477. # [18:02] <annevk> Domenic: as per the next comment
  478. # [18:02] <Domenic> annevk: oh OK, I think I see. Processing...
  479. # [18:02] <annevk> Domenic: and I think we might need to keep it for <a> if we really wanted blob URLs to work nicely and somewhat deterministically
  480. # [18:03] <Domenic> annevk: why is it important for Location? Location seems very similar to <a> to me.
  481. # [18:03] <annevk> Domenic: Location is very different from <a>
  482. # [18:03] <Domenic> Hmm in jsdom we implement them the same (and I am pretty sure we follow the spec)
  483. # [18:04] <Domenic> Let me dig up the code and explain that a bit more
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  485. # [18:04] <annevk> Domenic: the spec is wrong, which is why it needs a new design
  486. # [18:04] <Domenic> well, we follow browsers, is what i meant
  487. # [18:04] <annevk> Domenic: so when you set .pathname on Location you don't change the pathname of Location?
  488. # [18:04] <Domenic> oh, nope, that we don't do :-/
  489. # [18:04] <annevk> Domenic: and getting pathname keeps returning the old value?
  490. # [18:05] <annevk> sounds like you could have used some test cases ;-)
  491. # [18:05] <Domenic> ok, i guess i'll try to re-read your comments again...
  492. # [18:05] <Domenic> well, we mostly don't support navigation, so it's all a little bonkers anyway :P
  493. # [18:05] <Domenic> re-reading the comment... the setters only do side-effects, and do not do any actual setting?
  494. # [18:06] <Domenic> that's almost certainly not true for the hash setter... /me tests
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  496. # [18:07] <annevk> yeah hash might be a special case, interesting point
  497. # [18:07] <Domenic> yeah it is
  498. # [18:07] <Domenic> hmm how does .contentWindow.location behave, I wonder
  499. # [18:08] <annevk> I think bholley is writing a spec for that when it's cross-origin
  500. # [18:09] <annevk> Stuff gets rather involved :-/
  501. # [18:09] <Domenic> jeez
  502. # [18:09] <Domenic> it errors in firefox, works in chrome (for hash)
  503. # [18:09] <Domenic> time to test somtehing more interesting than hash
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  506. # [18:11] <Domenic> Chrome appears to censor iframe locations (even same-origin ones)??
  507. # [18:11] <Domenic> https://jsbin.com/kewuv/1/edit?html,console,output
  508. # [18:14] <annevk> Domenic: because the URL you use redirects
  509. # [18:15] <annevk> Still, the reason .hash does change is because navigate in that case is synchronous
  510. # [18:16] <annevk> Not because it has anything to do with the Location object, which just observes the document's url
  511. # [18:16] <wanderview> Domenic: does internet explorer 10 really have the new streams API? I think someone is confused (usually me) https://dev.modern.ie/platform/status/streamsapi/
  512. # [18:17] <annevk> wanderview: it points to http://www.w3.org/TR/streams-api/ which is not at all what streams ended up being
  513. # [18:17] <wanderview> annevk: it also says chrome is implementing it
  514. # [18:17] <wanderview> seems a bit confusing to people looking at it
  515. # [18:17] <annevk> wanderview: I suspect whoever wrote that is confused
  516. # [18:18] <Domenic> annevk: but the Location object retains identity even during navigation, when changing hash
  517. # [18:18] <Domenic> wanderview: yeah I tried ot correct them about this, let me find the bug...
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  519. # [18:18] <wanderview> I guess I could write a pull request against their status page... but I'm lazy
  520. # [18:18] <annevk> Domenic: only because navigate doesn't create a new document when you change the hash
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  522. # [18:18] <Domenic> sure
  523. # [18:19] <Domenic> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/Status/issues/108
  524. # [18:20] <annevk> Note that the document URL can also change through pushState()
  525. # [18:20] <annevk> which is reflected by Location
  526. # [18:20] <wanderview> ah, thnaks
  527. # [18:20] <annevk> it's just that any change to Location triggers navigate instead
  528. # [18:20] <Domenic> right
  529. # [18:21] <Domenic> so Location having no internal URL, but instead using the document's URL, makes more sense to me
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  535. # [18:35] <Domenic> wanderview: wouldn't hurt for you to ping them on https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/Status/issues/108 :)
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  539. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> "apply the URL parser algorithm to the absolute URL of the new resource"
  540. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Huh
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  543. # [18:37] <annevk> TabAtkins: if you could fix the output of Bikeshed that'd be great
  544. # [18:37] <Domenic> I like how status.modern.ie just randomly chooses W3C statuses to apply to WHATWG specs
  545. # [18:37] <annevk> TabAtkins: that would also make it significantly easier to rewrite existing specifications and compare the output
  546. # [18:38] <Domenic> Tempted to poke them to add an actual living standard status but that would probably be counterproductive
  547. # [18:38] <annevk> Domenic: they have to pretend we don't exist presumably
  548. # [18:38] <Domenic> annevk: I always have to use htmldiff to compare bikeshed spec outputs
  549. # [18:38] <Domenic> annevk: nah check this out: https://dev.modern.ie/platform/status/fetchapi/
  550. # [18:38] <Domenic> annevk: this one is my favorite: https://dev.modern.ie/platform/status/fullscreenapi/
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  552. # [18:39] <Domenic> annevk: but yeah along hte lines of picking random statuses, https://dev.modern.ie/platform/status/urlapi/
  553. # [18:40] <annevk> heh
  554. # [18:41] <annevk> I'm surprised that last one doesn't point to http://www.w3.org/TR/url/
  555. # [18:41] <annevk> I believe it did earlier
  556. # [18:41] <annevk> That they point to whatwg.org is actually news to me
  557. # [18:42] <Domenic> oooh another one https://dev.modern.ie/platform/status/mutationobservers/
  558. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> "Established standard"? What does that even mean?
  559. # [18:43] <Domenic> hehehe
  560. # [18:46] <Domenic> annevk: MikeSmith: can we get /TR/url to redirect to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ yet? The out-of-dateness is strong.
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  570. # [19:13] <nox> Ms2ger: You reviewing my stuff? I feel your pain.
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  580. # [19:31] <annevk> Domenic: I doubt the W3C would be interested in that
  581. # [19:31] <annevk> Domenic: besides, they put out this new charter of some mega group that's supposedly going to work on it...
  582. # [19:32] <annevk> Domenic: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/web-platform-wg.html "The Group MAY provide a specification defining the syntax, process and error handling for resolving URL, along with its API."
  583. # [19:33] <annevk> Grammar is not a thing they care about it seems...
  584. # [19:33] <annevk> Also, why does the charter uppercase MAY while not referencing RFC2119?
  585. # [19:34] <annevk> Meh
  586. # [19:34] <Domenic> I mean, that group is supposedly going to work on a lot of things
  587. # [19:34] <Domenic> Doesn't mean they have an editor for them
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  589. # [19:35] <annevk> They don't
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  591. # [19:35] <annevk> There's only a couple of folks interested in editing in the first place. The number of folks interested in maintaining infrastructure is a fraction of that. So...
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  594. # [19:43] <jgraham> I think "interested" is not always the limiting factor
  595. # [19:43] <jgraham> "competent, and able to make a living"
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  597. # [19:44] <annevk> Fair, but if competent, we should be able to find a sponsor...
  598. # [19:46] <jgraham> Well it's ahrd to prove you're competent if you don't spend any time doing it
  599. # [19:46] <jgraham> There are exceptions ofc
  600. # [19:48] <annevk> Yeah, this is a problem for open source software too
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  602. # [20:05] <Domenic> I am annoyed at trying to get Google to sponsor this kind of work ... they don't want to sponsor working from home or remote work, which has lost a couple candidates already.
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  610. # [20:23] <annevk> wow
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  612. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> Boo
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  614. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, re: your tweet: "zit nog altijd vast" means "is still in jail"
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  646. # [21:48] <wanderview> JakeA: do we no longer require a scope to be at or below the location of a service worker? I can't find it in the spec any more
  647. # [21:48] <wanderview> maybe I'm blind
  648. # [21:50] <wanderview> ah, its in the update algorithm... never mind
  649. # [21:54] <wanderview> JakeA: another question... can I have SWs registered at both scope /a/b and scope /a/b/c?
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  651. # [21:57] <Mek> wanderview: given that the "Match Service Worker Registration" explicitly tries to find the longest matching scope, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes
  652. # [22:01] <wanderview> Mek: I'm wondering if that is intended to match /some/scopeislong against /some/scope
  653. # [22:01] <wanderview> where there is no path separator... matching within path elements
  654. # [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: what is Shepherd?
  655. # [22:03] <Mek> I think it is indeded to just find the longest scope that matches the clientURLString, although the text does indeed seem a bit oddly phrased...
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  657. # [22:03] <Mek> *intended
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  659. # [22:04] <wanderview> I think its very surprising that it searches within the final token in the patch
  660. # [22:04] <wanderview> means I can't have separate service workers for peers in my directory tree structure if they have similar names
  661. # [22:05] <annevk> wanderview: you can have a service worker for a file, so yes, they are different
  662. # [22:05] <wanderview> annevk: ok... I'm writing a spec bug
  663. # [22:05] <wanderview> (I think you just agreed with me)
  664. # [22:05] <annevk> wanderview: no I didn't?
  665. # [22:05] <annevk> wanderview: /x/ and /x are different
  666. # [22:06] <wanderview> annevk: the wording for this matching does not distinguish for trailing slash at all
  667. # [22:06] <wanderview> annevk: and I believe those would probably get normalized to the same URL string by parsing the URL?
  668. # [22:06] <Mek> well, the wording for the matching just compares string serializations of URLs
  669. # [22:08] <Mek> except that the "the longest key [...] starting with the value of clientURLString" seems to imply the key(scope) should start with the client URL instead of the other way around...
  670. # [22:08] <wanderview> I think the spec language is crazy... I'm writing an issue
  671. # [22:09] <annevk> wanderview: no they wouldn't
  672. # [22:09] <annevk> wanderview: the spec should probably talk about this in terms of the URL Standard
  673. # [22:09] <wanderview> annevk: ok... but thats still not the case I was talking about... I'm talking about /some/scope and /some/scopeislong
  674. # [22:10] <annevk> wanderview: sure, those are different
  675. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> annevk: Shepherd is the separate tool that plinss runs that parses specs periodically and extracts all their anchors for me.
  676. # [22:10] <wanderview> https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/734
  677. # [22:10] <annevk> TabAtkins: so based on that list of specs, that's only done for a set of specs?
  678. # [22:11] <annevk> TabAtkins: and that's what causing the mismatch in references for selectors4 vs selectors-4, dom vs dom-ls, etc.
  679. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but it's not based on that list. There's another list managed through the Shepherd UI.
  680. # [22:11] <annevk> hmm
  681. # [22:11] <annevk> guess I need to study that
  682. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> That latter issue is actually Bikeshed. It's fixable with some more hacks by me.
  683. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> And I'm fine with those hacks.
  684. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> annevk: It's not accessible to people in general. I have admin to it, tho.
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  688. # [22:22] <annevk> I see
  689. # [22:24] <annevk> TabAtkins: so the cross-specification cross-reference database is not publicly available? Are the tools?
  690. # [22:24] <annevk> TabAtkins: does Bikeshed have any other non-public dependencies?
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  692. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> As far as I know, Shepherd's source isn't publicly available.
  693. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Other than the dependencies in Bikeshed's install, it only additionally depends on SpecRef (on GH) and Shepherd (not).
  694. # [22:26] <annevk> Guess I should ask plinss if he can fix that somehow
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  696. # [22:27] <annevk> TabAtkins: so SpecRef is exclusively for the references section?
  697. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  698. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> SpecRef provides biblio data, Shepherd provides anchor/spec/testsuite data.
  699. # [22:28] <annevk> Both have been behaving badly :-/
  700. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> The DOM https issue is my fault - I put it into Shepherd as http. Trying to change it now.
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  704. # [22:41] <JakeA> wanderview: /x/ and /x are different scopes if you want them to be
  705. # [22:41] <JakeA> If you want to restrict to a path, end the scope in /
  706. # [22:41] <wanderview> JakeA: I'm not interested in the case... I'm interested in /some/scopeislong and /some/scope being separate
  707. # [22:42] <wanderview> but I think I'm convinced my actual problem is a gecko issue somewhere
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  709. # [22:44] <JakeA> wanderview: they should be able to be separate scopes yeah
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  719. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> annevk: Got dom changed to https. Give it a few minutes and then `bikeshed update` to get things fixed.
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