/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 03 00:00:01 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:08] <mounir> smaug____: what's the problem with presentation api?
  8. # [00:08] <smaug____> just a bit over-engineered API
  9. # [00:09] <smaug____> too much Promise usage etc
  10. # [00:09] <smaug____> I'll file some bugs
  11. # [00:09] <mounir> smaug____: you might be too late to the game but feel free to file bugs
  12. # [00:09] <smaug____> not the first time I've seen overuse of Promises
  13. # [00:09] <smaug____> mounir: how so?
  14. # [00:09] <smaug____> it is not stable or anything
  15. # [00:09] <mounir> people have been working on this api for two years
  16. # [00:10] <mounir> not sure how open they are for cosmetic changes at that point
  17. # [00:10] <smaug____> People have worked on DOM APIs for decades,and still changing it ;)
  18. # [00:10] <mounir> but again, file bugs, I'm pretty sure anything reasonable will be considered
  19. # [00:10] <smaug____> mounir: the API has changed recently, and apparently the spec hasn't been reviewed
  20. # [00:10] <mounir> smaug____: I doubt people are making backward incompatible changes ;)
  21. # [00:10] <mounir> smaug____: define "reviewed" :)
  22. # [00:11] <smaug____> well, reviewed as "is it implementeable"
  23. # [00:11] <smaug____> implementable
  24. # [00:11] <mounir> smaug____: Mozilla is implementing that
  25. # [00:11] <smaug____> like there are some mistakes in webidl etc
  26. # [00:11] <smaug____> mounir: I know, I'm reviewing that work
  27. # [00:11] <mounir> smaug____: and unless something comes up, Chrome will ship that in the next Beta
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  29. # [00:13] <smaug____> mounir: chrome has shipped plenty of unstable APIs, like shadow dom ;)
  30. # [00:13] <mounir> smaug____: I guess
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  35. # [00:18] * smaug____ wonders what chrome does when (new PresentationSessionConnectEvent("")).session is executed in the context where PresentationSessionConnectEvent is available
  36. # [00:19] <smaug____> that is a case broken in the spec, as an example
  37. # [00:19] <smaug____> looks like broken also in blink source cod
  38. # [00:19] <smaug____> e
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  66. # [01:57] <nox> I think the adopting steps need to be run recursively in https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-node-adopt-ext.
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  79. # [02:21] <nox> https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/66/files
  80. # [02:21] <nox> Err, https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/66
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  90. # [03:09] * MikeSmith wonders if Domenic and annevk got things worked out as far at the teams stuff for the repo; seems like it
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  95. # [03:33] <Domenic> yepyep
  96. # [03:37] <Domenic> The problem with all this crazy tooling is that if I wanted to extend it I'd start writing node.js code
  97. # [03:37] <Domenic> But we already have like 4 languages and prereqs
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  99. # [03:37] <Domenic> Adding a fifth seems bad
  100. # [03:39] <Domenic> E.g. Sebmaster is basically doing https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/55 in node already for independent reasons (he's writing a generic spec Web IDL scraper)
  101. # [03:39] <Domenic> I guess it should really be done in wattsi though since wattsi already has a parsed representation of the document
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  108. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> I'd be willing to work on extending the wattsi code if we really thought that was the best way to do it
  109. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> But it seems like it might not be best, I dunno
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  111. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> I personally would rather we rewrote it all in Rust 😀
  112. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> Anyway, I have a question about document.evaluate
  113. # [04:09] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  114. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering why the current normative spec for it is
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  117. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> and if the answer is, the DOM3 spec, then that seems less than ideal
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  119. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> seems like it should be re-specced in a modern
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  121. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> *modern spec
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  131. # [04:32] <Domenic> Hmm. It doesn't show up in https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-core-changes
  132. # [04:35] <Domenic> Oh jeez it's in prose In a DOM implementation which supports the XPath 3.0 feature, as described above, the XPathEvaluator interface will be implemented on the same object which implements the Document interface
  133. # [04:35] <Domenic> MikeSmith: my thinking is that DOM is not meant to subsume DOM 3 XPath, just DOM 3 Core.
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  135. # [04:36] <Domenic> There's not too much there though, it could probably be subsumed and modernized
  136. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> Yeah
  137. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> devs and libraries do actually use it, so it would be nice to actually have a good spec for it
  138. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> WebDriver relies on it
  139. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> or at least WebDriver implementations/libraries Do
  140. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> through an abstraction
  141. # [04:41] <Domenic> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/xml/XPathEvaluator.idl&q=xpath%20idl&sq=package:chromium&l=24 is interesting
  142. # [04:41] * MikeSmith looks
  143. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> dang that UI is makes it hard to read on mobile
  144. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> frame layout
  145. # [04:43] * MikeSmith rotates
  146. # [04:43] <Domenic> https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/297 https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/295 https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/296 usage stats... could in theory remove createExpression?
  147. # [04:44] <Domenic> Which would be nice because then we could kill XPathExpression entirely
  148. # [04:44] * MikeSmith looks more
  149. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> Domenic: yes
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  162. # [05:07] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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  176. # [05:45] <annevk> Domenic: MikeSmith: ideally we would have team permissions for creating and pushing to branches other than master, and indeed also assigning etc.
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  178. # [05:46] <annevk> Domenic: MikeSmith: with just master controlled by a small set of folks
  179. # [05:46] <annevk> Domenic: but alas
  180. # [05:46] <annevk> I guess we could ask for that...
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  185. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: if by "we could ask for that" you mean, ask github to add that feature, then I agree. But that said, even if they say Yeah and think it's the greatest idea in the world, it would be like 6 months at least before it's actualy deployed
  186. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> so in practice that doesn't solve any problem for us
  187. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> (plus, you're up really eearly again)
  188. # [06:06] <annevk> If I could solve all my problems within six months by sending an email...
  189. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> haha
  190. # [06:07] <annevk> We're going to bed earlier as well, so it evens out
  191. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> ok
  192. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> so anyway
  193. # [06:07] <botie> so is probably TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?
  194. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> document.evaluate
  195. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> thoughts?
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  197. # [06:07] <annevk> Well, I'm not opposed to specifying it, but it doesn't seem high priority
  198. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> e.g., fine to leave it as-is in DOM3 XPath
  199. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> oh
  200. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> ok
  201. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
  202. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> I guess so
  203. # [06:08] <annevk> Note that we have the DOM XPath wiki page that has more detail
  204. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> ah ok, will lok
  205. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> yeah I vaguely recalled there being something
  206. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> webdriver users rely on XPath very heavily
  207. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> but they don't care how it works under the hood, as long as it works
  208. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> so if we could replace what we have now with something that's modern and better that would be great too
  209. # [06:10] <TabAtkins> ...why is botie talking to me?
  210. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> I mean, not just re-speccing it properly, but creating a new modern API
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  212. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: botie was apparently responding to me saying "so", and thinks "so" means "probably TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again"
  213. # [06:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: not sure about new APIs, that seems even less relevant now than it when that came up a decade ago or so
  214. # [06:12] * MikeSmith reads https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_XPath
  215. # [06:12] <TabAtkins> Sure, that makes sense
  216. # [06:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: especially since nobody is interested in extending the XPath language
  217. # [06:13] <annevk> (when it comes to the web platform anyway)
  218. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: I would think so as well if I didn't see a dozen questions a day on StackOverflow who are trying to get stuff done with webdriver and trying to figure out XPath expressions to let them do what they need
  219. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> which is typically, "I need to make webdriver emulate a click on this specific element"
  220. # [06:14] <annevk> Can't WebDriver provide a proprietary API then? Or a small wrapper library?
  221. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> why a proprietary API? WebDriver is a standard
  222. # [06:15] * Joins: frivoal (~frivoal@om126212092108.11.openmobile.ne.jp)
  223. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: and webdriver already puts a wrapper/abstraction around the XPath stuff. All webdriver implementations have something called findElementByXPath or something like that
  224. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> I guess it's standard actually
  225. # [06:21] * Joins: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx)
  226. # [06:21] * MikeSmith should read the spec more since he's nominally in charge of that WG
  227. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> it returns a thing called WebElement
  228. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> anyway it seems to me there's plenty of evidence that WebDriver is solving real problems. And in practice right now WebDriver users rely very heavily on XPath, so XPath is solving a real problem for them and helping them get real work done
  229. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> admittedly their XPath usage eventually could be replaced by some other addressing mechanism/API
  230. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> I think their tools actually already provide some method that allows doing it with Selectors
  231. # [06:25] * terinjokes raises hand as WebDriver user who's used years of libxml experience to craft XPath
  232. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> hey terinjokes
  233. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> my impression is that despite having Selectors support as an alternative, very few webdriver devs actually use it
  234. # [06:26] * MikeSmith shuts up for now
  235. # [06:26] * MikeSmith changes his mind
  236. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: about "nobody is interested in extending the XPath language", it arguably doesn't need extending. XPath 1.0 works fine as far as webdriver users go at least
  237. # [06:27] <terinjokes> i've used xpath to select a specific element (i want element with class "x" that's in the third div with class "y" with the parent C, though obviously written backwards from this)
  238. # [06:27] <terinjokes> which might be possible as a selector, but I don't know how to do it
  239. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> I've not seen many normal people saying that XPath 1.0 needs to be extended to do what they need
  240. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> but maybe I'm not aware of other deficiencies that are causing any problems we actually care about
  241. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah
  242. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> oofs
  243. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> s/TabAtkins/terinjokes/ there
  244. # [06:29] * MikeSmith shuts up again
  245. # [06:29] <TabAtkins> I KEEP GETTING MENTIONED FOR NO REASON
  246. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> hahah
  247. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> botie: bug TabAtkins about something
  248. # [06:30] <botie> MikeSmith: i'm not following you...
  249. # [06:30] <boogyman> you could always change your nick to NotTabAtkins
  250. # [06:31] <TabAtkins> GODDAMMIT
  251. # [06:31] <terinjokes> MikeSmith: my understanding is that botie only responds in a useful manner to "so"
  252. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> so what?
  253. # [06:32] <botie> it has been said that so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?
  254. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> oh man that's annoying
  255. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> will delete that now
  256. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> in the mean time https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#element-location-strategies
  257. # [06:33] <TabAtkins> OMIGOD BOTIE SHUT UP
  258. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#findelements & https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#findelement
  259. # [06:35] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@2400:e780:801:232:2677:3ff:fece:dc64) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  260. # [06:41] <terinjokes> i think i might steal this phrase in my future "specs": "However, in the absence of another specification actually defining this, here are some guidelines for implementors"
  261. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> hahah
  262. # [06:50] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
  263. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> yeah I remember now why I avoided reading that spec in detail
  264. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> anyway jgraham and Andreas Tolfsen have been helping on that spec and it's getting much better
  265. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> terinjokes: oh wait, what spec were you quoting there?
  266. # [06:55] * Quits: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  267. # [06:56] <terinjokes> MikeSmith: the w3 draft version of html. it's how the non-normative sections about XSLT and <script> and <template> begin
  268. # [06:56] * Joins: alrra (uid62345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-llehvmizsppmzapq)
  269. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  270. # [06:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: that XPath is fine for WebDriver doesn't mean there should be a better API in browsers I think
  271. # [06:56] <terinjokes> i got linked to from the WebDriver spec somehow
  272. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> botie, so is the word that comes before la
  273. # [06:57] <botie> ...but so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?...
  274. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> botie, no, so is the word that comes before la
  275. # [06:57] <botie> ...but so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?...
  276. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> fuck
  277. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> no, so is the word that comes before la
  278. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> botie, so is the word that comes before la
  279. # [06:58] <botie> ...but so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?...
  280. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> no, so is the word that comes before la
  281. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I suppose so
  282. # [07:00] * Quits: botie (~i-bot@sideshowbarker.net) (Quit: regrouping; bbiab)
  283. # [07:07] * Joins: botie (~i-bot@sideshowbarker.net)
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  286. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> so what?
  287. # [07:16] * Joins: psy_ (~psy@43.224.156.102)
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  289. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I just deleted the entire "is"-association DB that botie was using
  290. # [07:17] * Quits: frivoal (~frivoal@om126212092108.11.openmobile.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  291. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> I guess I should just turn it off but I don't want to spend 30 minutes or whatever it would take to do that atm
  292. # [07:26] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@ptr-2hj4tblvksdonvex0b9mx6ink.ip6.access.telenet.be)
  293. # [07:26] <annevk> Ugh, error: did you mean `--ff-only` (with two dashes ?)
  294. # [07:26] <annevk> Pedantic software...
  295. # [07:37] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Haha, thanks
  296. # [07:41] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-157-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
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  299. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: meta note: for stuff like https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/db33a45abcfddb6c17605ed64d474d1489090335#commitcomment-13039312 I think the best workflow would be that you just make those changes directly on the branch yourself. Since they are relatively minor and seem uncontroversial.
  300. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: and since it takes less time to actually do it than it does to have a discussion about it
  301. # [07:56] <annevk> Yeah I suppose, since we just started it's still a bit unclear what everyone cares strongly about
  302. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> yeah true
  303. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> never know sometimes
  304. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> that's part of why I try not to feel too strongly about anything (not that I always succeed)
  305. # [07:57] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
  306. # [07:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: are you around for a while longer?
  307. # [07:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: wondering what "ln -s ../images .wattsi-output/multipage-html/" is in the build-script
  308. # [07:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: I realize it creates a link, but it does so from the current working directory seemingly
  309. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm around for the rest of the day (hours and hours)
  310. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> I didn't know the build script did that
  311. # [08:00] * MikeSmith looks
  312. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: that seems to me like what exatly
  313. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> *exactly what it should be doing
  314. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> that is, it's working as intended
  315. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> is it causing some problem for you?
  316. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> errors?
  317. # [08:05] <annevk> I'm just confused what is being linked
  318. # [08:06] <annevk> Is it going to the parent directory of html-build/?
  319. # [08:06] <annevk> Hmm, seems I have to go for a bit
  320. # [08:06] <annevk> Back in half an hour or so
  321. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> k
  322. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> I'll still be here
  323. # [08:07] <annevk> My tentative plan for today is to create .html/ as input directory and have .generated-html/ as output directory or some such. So not all the files are cluttered with the rest...
  324. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> hmm
  325. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> well my plan for today is to actually work on the build script
  326. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> so maybe we should work on it together when you have time
  327. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> I have time for the next 3.5 hours or so
  328. # [08:08] <annevk> Okay
  329. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> then I'm on the train for ~2 hours
  330. # [08:08] <annevk> I've been hacking on https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/issues/1
  331. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> ok
  332. # [08:08] * MikeSmith looks
  333. # [08:08] <annevk> I fixed the bits that need to be done in html/, now I need to fix the bits in html-build/
  334. # [08:09] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@c-24-7-238-5.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  335. # [08:09] <annevk> I can upload the html/ branch now so you can have a look
  336. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> super
  337. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> yeah let's get this stuff done today if we can
  338. # [08:10] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  339. # [08:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/a262f1d23cb8990a4735436215a01f0f4892f1a1
  340. # [08:11] <annevk> Not a big change so far :-)
  341. # [08:12] <annevk> Gotta bring O to daycare and then I'll be back to do the remaining bits
  342. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> hai
  343. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> will be here and will be looking at it all in the mean time
  344. # [08:13] * Quits: igoroliveira (uid20755@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ikrhwkfgygclebsw) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  345. # [08:13] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@c-24-7-238-5.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  346. # [08:14] * MikeSmith sets aside the 2352 unread messages in his inbox for a while
  347. # [08:16] * Quits: jyasskin (~jyasskin@173-228-80-34.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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  350. # [08:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: turns out I didn't have to today
  351. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  352. # [08:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: anyway, so the problem is that the build script removes the /multipage/ directory
  353. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> so, let's do this thing!
  354. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
  355. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
  356. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> as it should I guess
  357. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> since it rebuilds it all
  358. # [08:22] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  359. # [08:22] * Quits: beverloo (beverloo@nat/google/x-keghyhdsaiubchjw) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  360. # [08:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: whereas we want to just copy it from "input" and add wattsi output
  361. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
  362. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: looking at it all now
  363. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: so we want to keep .wattsi-output where it is now?
  364. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> or in our re-plan do we want to move it elsewhere?
  365. # [08:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think that's fine
  366. # [08:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: do you know why complete.html is copied and not simply moved to index?
  367. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> do not know but will look and find out
  368. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> before we start making further changes, I would like to land Domenic's patch for https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/pull/10
  369. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> OK?
  370. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> that's not going to break anything, but if we make changes it might break the merge-ability of that patch
  371. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> so I think it's better to land it now
  372. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> land=push
  373. # [08:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems fine if it works
  374. # [08:30] * Joins: ^esc (~esc-ape@178.165.129.182.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  375. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> ok
  376. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> will do it in minute
  377. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> right now, still looking that thd build script
  378. # [08:31] <annevk> I think complete.html not being moved is some leftover we forgot to clean up
  379. # [08:31] <annevk> since it's identical to index
  380. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> so yeah, there is no good reason for complete.html to be cp'ed instead of mv'ed
  381. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> probably yeah
  382. # [08:32] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/pull/12
  383. # [08:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: so my idea was that we create .html; everything inside .html you need to ln yourself to whatwg/html
  384. # [08:34] * Joins: beverloo (beverloo@nat/google/x-vfymethcrssznlqm)
  385. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> manually?
  386. # [08:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: build.sh then copies .html to .html-build and we operate on that
  387. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> manually you'd need to run "ln -s" yourself?
  388. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> ah I thnk I see what you were saying
  389. # [08:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: well, perhaps we could check if it's in ../html or allow for a parameter
  390. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> yes
  391. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> exxactly
  392. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> so yeah, that's easy
  393. # [08:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: and we destroy .html-build at the start of build.sh
  394. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> ok
  395. # [08:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: both also need to be in .gitignore
  396. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> yeah sure that's really minor and can wait
  397. # [08:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: I'm still not sure what ln -s ../images .wattsi-output/multipage-html/ does though
  398. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> yeah me neither, after looking at it. But I'll figure it out
  399. # [08:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: does that mean that whenever you literally use "../images" it looks in the other place?
  400. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> right now though I'm getting a fatal build error: "can't find instance of attr-img-alt"
  401. # [08:38] <annevk> No that can't be it
  402. # [08:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: looking...
  403. # [08:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't get that error
  404. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, may be due to my jacking around with my local wattsi yesterday
  405. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> will figure it out shortly
  406. # [08:49] * Quits: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat) (Remote host closed the connection)
  407. # [08:52] * Joins: howdoi (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aiebixzfwhfxydyl)
  408. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> ... and, now hanging at "wget -o /dev/null -N http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007xml/unicode.xml"
  409. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> there's not good reason for that "-o /dev/null"
  410. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> it's not hanging.. just taking a long time, but because of that -o /dev/null there's no indicator of what's going on
  411. # [08:55] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  412. # [08:56] * MikeSmith will later kill all of those redirects of stderr to /dev/null, and whatever else there may be that prevents useful debugging info from being emitted
  413. # [09:02] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  414. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: please pull
  415. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> so that you'll have the wattsi-service change
  416. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> and then also please rm your local wattsi executable
  417. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> so that we know for sure we're working from the same thing
  418. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> (and working from what we want others to use later)
  419. # [09:04] <annevk> okay
  420. # [09:05] * mkwst_zzz is now known as mkwst
  421. # [09:06] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  422. # [09:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: I get "Local wattsi is not present; trying the build server..." while I have wattsi locally installed
  423. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hmm my push didn't auto-close that PR and github still thinks the branch has unmerged changes. dunno what I did wrong but not going to worry about it since the changes are actually merged
  424. # [09:08] <Domenic> complete.html is a real URL that used to be a thing people linked to
  425. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  426. # [09:08] <Domenic> If we move instead of copy, we'd need to add a redirect.
  427. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> true
  428. # [09:08] <annevk> Domenic: okay I'll add a redirect
  429. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> yes
  430. # [09:08] <annevk> That wattsi no longer works locally seems like a problem
  431. # [09:09] <Domenic> Ah damn that is bad
  432. # [09:09] <Domenic> I must have gotten my bash existence test wrong
  433. # [09:09] <Domenic> But also I need to sleep
  434. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> Domenic: no worries
  435. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> but yeah if [ -e "wattsi" ] is wrong
  436. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> it means, look for a wattsi file in the current dir, right?
  437. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> whereas, it might be somewhere else
  438. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's easy to fix
  439. # [09:11] <Domenic> I should have actually looked up -e
  440. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> bash stuff is arcane
  441. # [09:11] * Quits: boogyman (~justme_j@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  442. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> teh docs don't help terrifically much
  443. # [09:13] <annevk> Added a redirect to .htaccess, the relative URL should work as final argument since we have a new enough version of Apache
  444. # [09:14] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~a@5ED090B0.cm-7-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
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  447. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> Domenic: also I should have actually tested it for the wattsi-is-present-locally case before I pushed it
  448. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> (I just tested only the wattsi-isn't-present-locally case, by removing my wattsi)
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  451. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: so, about that ln -s ../images .wattsi-output/multipage-html/
  452. # [09:20] * Quits: ohaibbq (~ohaibbq@2601:643:8100:fdf1:5ad:dd7a:4ae8:51d0) (Remote host closed the connection)
  453. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> as I said, that is doing what it's supposed to
  454. # [09:21] * Joins: ohaibbq (~ohaibbq@2601:643:8100:fdf1:5ad:dd7a:4ae8:51d0)
  455. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: please do ls -al .wattsi-output/multipage-html/
  456. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> and see what it shows you
  457. # [09:25] * Quits: ohaibbq (~ohaibbq@2601:643:8100:fdf1:5ad:dd7a:4ae8:51d0) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  458. # [09:25] * Joins: espadrine (~tyl@dan75-7-88-166-187-54.fbx.proxad.net)
  459. # [09:27] <annevk> >No such file or directory
  460. # [09:27] * Joins: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com)
  461. # [09:28] <annevk> I don't have multipage-html generated...
  462. # [09:29] * Quits: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  463. # [09:30] * Joins: cvrebert (~cvrebert@108-242-182-243.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  464. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, why not?
  465. # [09:32] * MikeSmith looks at the branch to see if you changed something else
  466. # [09:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: I might have forgotten to ln some file I suppose
  467. # [09:33] <cvrebert> annevk: Do you mean "were you using a nightly build?" or "please re-test in a nightly build?" ?
  468. # [09:39] * Joins: JoWie (uid93456@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-niattgpwgmiwzpkz)
  469. # [09:42] <nox> annevk: Can you help me a couple of minutes? Trying to figure if the spec forgot something for <template>.
  470. # [09:42] <nox> var template = document.createElement("template"); template.innerHTML = '<template id="t2">Some text</template>';
  471. # [09:42] <nox> I can't find in the spec how the set inner HTML can end up in `template`'s template contents.
  472. # [09:44] <nox> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#appropriate-place-for-inserting-a-node This scans the stack of open elements, but AFAICT in the fragment case, the only opened element is <html>, reading https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing-html-fragments.
  473. # [09:44] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  474. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> Domenic: is there any good reason for not having the build script automatically run the "svn checkout http://www.unicode.org/repos/cldr/trunk/common/main/ .cldr-data" step?
  475. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> because otherwise we should just have the build script do it, right?
  476. # [09:49] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.85.219)
  477. # [09:53] <nox> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#reset-the-insertion-mode-appropriately Oh I see, step 17.
  478. # [09:54] <nox> Ah no, misread step 17. Doesn't change stack of open elements.
  479. # [09:55] <nox> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#stack-of-open-elements says: 'In the fragment case, the stack of open elements is initialised to contain an html element that is created as part of that algorithm. (The fragment case skips the "before html" insertion mode.)'
  480. # [09:55] <nox> I'm pretty sure template fragments can't be parsed correctly with the current rules.
  481. # [09:56] <nox> I think that step 1 in https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#appropriate-place-for-inserting-a-node should use "adjusted current node".
  482. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> this whole build script really should be just a makefile, as I think mkwst pointed out before
  483. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> but anyway, one thing at a time
  484. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> we can port it to make later
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  486. # [10:02] * cvrebert wait for butthurt Windows users to complain about make
  487. # [10:05] <nox> The current element being <html> in the case of fragment parsing sounds wrong. :(
  488. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> cvrebert: I guess but to begin with, the script is bash script, no at .bat
  489. # [10:13] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@84.219.248.21)
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  494. # [10:29] <annevk> cvrebert: I guess I'm saying only use nightly builds when working on standards and browsers :-)
  495. # [10:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: sorry, got called away again, did you make some progress?
  496. # [10:30] <cvrebert> annevk: Nightly still acts equally weird in that case. Just like the other browsers. :-)
  497. # [10:31] <annevk> nox: I'm not sure
  498. # [10:31] <annevk> cvrebert: it doesn't here...
  499. # [10:31] <nox> annevk: About which part?
  500. # [10:31] <annevk> cvrebert: 43.0a1 (2015-09-02)
  501. # [10:31] <annevk> nox: about innerHTML
  502. # [10:31] <nox> annevk: I'm 99.44% sure I'm right about template contents not being used in this case.
  503. # [10:32] <nox> annevk: And given it specifically sets the stack of template insertion modes in the case of template fragment, I think this is a bug.
  504. # [10:32] <nox> annevk: Firefox and Safari put #t2 in the outer template contents.
  505. # [10:32] <nox> And there are WPT tests that check for that.
  506. # [10:32] <annevk> nox: HTML has one open bug about adjusted iirc
  507. # [10:32] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  508. # [10:32] <nox> /html/semantics/scripting-1/the-template-element/definitions/template-contents.html
  509. # [10:32] <nox> annevk: Oh, link?
  510. # [10:32] <annevk> nox: I can look...
  511. # [10:33] <nox> annevk: I plan to make a PR for HTML to make template use the adopting steps appropriately anyway.
  512. # [10:33] <annevk> nox: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314
  513. # [10:33] <annevk> nox: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26783 is another bug on that algorithm though unrelated
  514. # [10:34] <annevk> nox: that sounds great. Please include a pointer to the tests and some documentation since I'm sure we'll need all that to review
  515. # [10:34] <nox> bzbarksy sounds right.
  516. # [10:34] <annevk> nox: none of us is very experienced in this part of the code
  517. # [10:34] <annevk> nox: that's not uncommon :-)
  518. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: making progress, yeah
  519. # [10:35] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/26#issuecomment-137360727 should I ask this person to keep discourse respectful or just leave it?
  520. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: feel free to work on other stuff for the time being. I think at this point I understand what you and Domenic want and what we need, so I'll work on making it. And if I misunderstand anything, we just iterate.
  521. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: do not ask publicly
  522. # [10:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: that sounds great, thank you
  523. # [10:36] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-178-200-61-79.hsi07.unitymediagroup.de)
  524. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> I think the first rule of dealing with trolls is not to give them any additional public attention
  525. # [10:36] <annevk> GitHub has no way to message another usage
  526. # [10:36] <annevk> s/usage/user/
  527. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
  528. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> so just delete the comment
  529. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> IMHO
  530. # [10:37] <annevk> Seems reasonable for this one
  531. # [10:37] * Joins: frivoal (~frivoal@om126237120078.9.openmobile.ne.jp)
  532. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> github should have a way you can flag a comment as spam so that a github dev can deal with it
  533. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
  534. # [10:38] <annevk> I was tempted before to just remove the "Please reopen" statement since it wasn't constructive, but I decided not to since I figured it might create more flames
  535. # [10:38] <nox> Being fed up by a technical decision isn't trolling, IMO
  536. # [10:38] <nox> Happens to all of us.
  537. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> sure
  538. # [10:38] <nox> Isn't constructive, but not trolling.
  539. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> but *expressing* frustration like that is trolling
  540. # [10:38] <nox> Also, reporting people means getting them shadow-banned, sometimes, on GH.
  541. # [10:38] <annevk> nox: saying "I laugh at your statements" is trolling, imo
  542. # [10:39] <nox> annevk: It's being fed up, and thinking incompetence is involved.
  543. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> and it adds nothing constructive, so deleting it is no loss
  544. # [10:39] <nox> MikeSmith: I would redact it. Deleting sounds like you are scared.
  545. # [10:39] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  546. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> nox: IMHO, somebody adding comments like that deserves to be shadow-banned
  547. # [10:40] <nox> (In a fed up people mind that think Google, of all entities, is feeling pressure.)
  548. # [10:40] <nox> MikeSmith: What?!
  549. # [10:40] <nox> Shadow-banned is the most passive-aggressive douche move ever.
  550. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> wow
  551. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> I guess I don't even know what shadow-banning is then
  552. # [10:41] <nox> MikeSmith: You are banned,
  553. # [10:41] <nox> but everything works.
  554. # [10:41] <nox> You don't know you are banned.
  555. # [10:41] <annevk> cvrebert: ah, you're not using Nightly, developer edition is not recent enough it seems
  556. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  557. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> nox: yeah that's just dumb
  558. # [10:41] <nox> MikeSmith: It's fun though, your repositories are still available and whatnot,
  559. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> nox: anyway, maybe you can see what effect comments like that have
  560. # [10:41] <nox> but your profile says 404,
  561. # [10:41] <nox> so in a way,
  562. # [10:41] <nox> trolling on GH is the best way to get private repos for free.
  563. # [10:42] <nox> MikeSmith: Sure.
  564. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> that guy's comment has made the two of us argue with each other and waste time on it
  565. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> right now I just want to fixing the HTML spec build script
  566. # [10:42] <nox> MikeSmith: But I say stupid things when I am fed up by a spec sometimes. :) If that person has an history of doing this, sure.
  567. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> but instead this guy has sucked us into his little world of negativity
  568. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> yeah
  569. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> sure
  570. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> we all do it sometimes
  571. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> we need our friends to tell us to cut it out
  572. # [10:43] <cvrebert> annevk: but anyhow, it's a cross-browser quirk
  573. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> nox: anyway, I do understand what you're saying
  574. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> I'm just a little sensitive after 8 years of dealing with lots of dysfunctional communication and people in a really large WG
  575. # [10:44] <nox> Ah ah.
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  577. # [10:45] <annevk> cvrebert: well was
  578. # [10:45] <annevk> cvrebert: Firefox is now correct, I'm sure other browsers would be okay with cleaning up their code too, since the new behavior would be simpler
  579. # [10:46] <nox> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314#c23
  580. # [10:47] <cvrebert> annevk: although this does beg the question why everyone had this same quirk in the first place
  581. # [10:48] <annevk> cvrebert: yeah, I wonder what bug changed the behavior in Firefox and what the actual patch was for that, but not curious enough to start digging
  582. # [10:49] <mkwst> annevk: Is there a term in Fetch for things that the browser requests outside the context of a page? We used to have an "internal" context for those requests... I guess an `initiator` and `destination` of ""?
  583. # [10:50] <annevk> mkwst: I guess it depends on whether it's exposed somehow or not
  584. # [10:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: is there a fix for the wattsi thing yet to use the local one when available?
  585. # [10:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: or should I look into that? kind of annoying to have that broken
  586. # [10:50] <mkwst> annevk: I'm looking at https://github.com/w3c/webappsec/issues/246, which concerns requests made to populate browser UI.
  587. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: will fix it right now and push it master
  588. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> gimme a couple minutes
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  590. # [10:52] <annevk> mkwst: that seems like /favicon type of requests which do go through the service worker, no?
  591. # [10:52] <annevk> mkwst: are they really distinct from the page?
  592. # [10:53] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  593. # [10:53] <mkwst> They aren't revealed to the page until the user chooses to do so, and then only one of potentially several.
  594. # [10:53] <mkwst> That is, the browser constructs the chooser UI using SEKRIT INFORMATIONS, and then, if the user chooses to do so, reveals a portion of those secrets to the page.
  595. # [10:53] <mkwst> So, no, they aren't requests generated by the page, or that the page should know about.
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  597. # [10:55] <annevk> But the page controls the URLs, no?
  598. # [10:55] <annevk> Sounds leaky...
  599. # [10:56] <yoav> mkwst: Trying to catch up on which requests you're talking about, but are such requests excluded from things like resource timing?
  600. # [10:56] <mkwst> No, the page doesn't control the URLs. Federations, for instance, will show up in the chooser even if you've never used them on the page.
  601. # [10:57] <mkwst> yoav: requests to populate the images in interfaces like https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/credentialmanagement/#user-mediated-selection
  602. # [10:57] <annevk> Hmm
  603. # [10:57] <mkwst> annevk: Or the same interface in the context of chrome://settings/passwords/totallyAwesomeConfigurationPage
  604. # [10:58] <annevk> I guess as long as you set the skip service worker flag you should be okay
  605. # [10:58] <annevk> And then it doesn't really matter what you set for the rest, except for CSP and such, except since there's no client those won't work either I assume
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  608. # [11:02] <mkwst> Right. I think that's the case.
  609. # [11:02] <mkwst> Cool, thanks.
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  613. # [11:07] <annevk> mkwst: sorry for not finding all style nits in one go
  614. # [11:07] <annevk> (re csp state)
  615. # [11:08] <mkwst> annevk: no worries. the squashing/force-pushing is a bit annoying, though, as all the context and discussion is lost. i wonder if there's a way to simplify that workflow.
  616. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> mkwst: about the 'Content-Security-Policy' pragma directive PR, I will review also and add comments (if any) after I do
  617. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: if we can, please hold off on pushing that PR til I can make time to review (later tonight or tomorrow)
  618. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> the build script is going to take some time
  619. # [11:10] <annevk> MikeSmith: sure
  620. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: will push the wattsi fix right not
  621. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> *now
  622. # [11:10] <annevk> mkwst: we could do the rebase at the end?
  623. # [11:10] <mkwst> MikeSmith: No rush. Happy to wait for you.
  624. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> k
  625. # [11:11] <annevk> mkwst: first many commits, then squash and go
  626. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> Did we really add another http-equiv?
  627. # [11:11] <mkwst> annevk: Yeah. That's probably better. It slows things down marginally, as the reviewer can't just land it, but whatever.
  628. # [11:11] <mkwst> Ms2ger: Yes! Aren't you thrilled?! :)
  629. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> I'm sad
  630. # [11:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: there's referrer-policy too, though I guess that's <meta name=...>
  631. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> But I work on browsers, so I'm always sad
  632. # [11:12] <mkwst> Ms2ger: We added it ~4 years ago, if that makes it any better?
  633. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> No
  634. # [11:12] <mkwst> Didn't think so.
  635. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: pull now on master and test and it should work for you again
  636. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> fwiw I also agree with mkwst as far as "the squashing/force-pushing is a bit annoying, though, as all the context and discussion is lost"
  637. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> sometimes you want to preserve the context, sometimes it's not valuable and can just be squashd
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  639. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> Only if you're silly enough to review on github :)
  640. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> heh
  641. # [11:15] <nox> Ms2ger!
  642. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> true that, Ms2ger
  643. # [11:15] <nox> Ms2ger: Would you mind checking what I mentioned earlier, to be sure about what I'm saying?
  644. # [11:16] <Ms2ger> About shadow-banning?
  645. # [11:16] <nox> No, lol.
  646. # [11:16] <nox> Ms2ger: About fragment parsing in template contexts.
  647. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> :) > "But I work on browsers, so I'm always sad"
  648. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> s/browsers/the Web platform/
  649. # [11:18] <Ms2ger> I'd rather not
  650. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> well I didn't mean your statement about what you work on
  651. # [11:18] <nox> MikeSmith: When sad, remember https://twitter.com/nokusu/status/634091274962894848.
  652. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I meant the part about having a reason to weep
  653. # [11:19] * MikeSmith follows https://twitter.com/nokusu/status/634091274962894848 .. hopes it's not a goatse ....
  654. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> hahah
  655. # [11:19] <annevk> thanks MikeSmith, works
  656. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> super
  657. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> nox: triple-favorited
  658. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> *I'd rather not think about template parsing
  659. # [11:22] <nox> Ms2ger: :(
  660. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> damn this build script is way too network-bound
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  664. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> cvrebert, moral of the story: don't expect jsbin to render the html you gave it
  665. # [11:25] <cvrebert> :-/
  666. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm at the office and I need to leave soon to catch the train back to shinjuku, so will start back on build stuff in maybe 2.5 or 3 hours from now
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  668. # [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: you probably also want to look at https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/104
  669. # [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: okay
  670. # [11:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: cvrebert: perhaps it only worked for me because I made some local changes and then ran it again? That sounds very unreliable
  671. # [11:43] <annevk> This reminds me of something JakeA did in jsbin and I couldn't reproduce elsewhere
  672. # [11:43] <annevk> Probably best to ask tests to be moved next time around
  673. # [11:46] <annevk> Krinkle_: seems you didn't actually have access to https://github.com/whatwg/sourcemap so I fixed that
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  677. # [12:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: for some reason ./build.sh hangs for a long time on grep
  678. # [12:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: which is right at the start with the svn stuff
  679. # [12:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: so the reason .wattsi-output doesn't contain multipage/ is because the build.sh script moves that
  680. # [12:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: anyway, I guess I'll give up on this for a bit and work on something else
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  682. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think that just hangs because that grep actually takes a very long time to run
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  685. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> I think it's grepping through the entire svn log for all the Unicode locale data
  686. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> or something
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  689. # [12:13] <annevk> o_O
  690. # [12:13] <annevk> Hmm, running svn up .cldr-data also takes a long time to run
  691. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> Anyway if you do "git checkout sideshowbarker/rework" and then run build.sh -v
  692. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
  693. # [12:13] <annevk> I was thinking maybe we should just run that everytime and store the revision someplace
  694. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> I added that -v switch because of this
  695. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> yeah maybe
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  698. # [12:14] <annevk> Might be better to have a switch to not do cldr-data
  699. # [12:14] <annevk> Or opt into it...
  700. # [12:15] <zcorpan> doing the redirect in htaccess appears to be a bit hairy, it's probably better to do it in python (for web-apps-tracker)
  701. # [12:15] <annevk> zcorpan: why?
  702. # [12:15] <annevk> zcorpan: oh the query string one?
  703. # [12:15] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
  704. # [12:15] <zcorpan> plain Redirect doesn't do query strings
  705. # [12:17] <zcorpan> there's RewriteMap that could work but it can't be declared in htaccess
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  708. # [12:17] <annevk> zcorpan: http://serverfault.com/questions/500961/redirectmatch-and-query-string
  709. # [12:18] <annevk> not sure about the merits of mod_rewrite vs Python though
  710. # [12:18] <annevk> the bit in Python we have for this today is quite simple too
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  713. # [12:21] <zcorpan> htaccess might cause slowness for the rest of the site, from what i understand
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  716. # [12:25] <ato> If in a specification I want to say that something can be one of either three things (a set), what’s the normal way to do this?
  717. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> enumerated
  718. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> ato: see the way the HTML spec words it
  719. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> search for "enumerated"
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  723. # [12:31] <ato> MikeSmith: Thanks
  724. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> annevk: So yeah I reckon that the first thing I'll do when I get home is, I'll add a -u switch for optting in to asking it to do an update; e.g., the svn up thing it wants to run, and all that whatever the hell stuff it keeps re-downloading each time
  725. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> and switch the default to being, don't do that
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  727. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> don't do that unless we ask you to
  728. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> that with hell lower our blood pressure and choices focus on the actual build improvements we want to make
  729. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> without the lag and the noise
  730. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> ato: The cases that use that "enumerated" language may not be what you had in mind or need
  731. # [12:38] <ato> MikeSmith: It might be a bit heavy in my case, yes. But I can draw some inspiration from it (-:
  732. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> k
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  734. # [12:41] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: does there exist an Encoding Standard implementation for Rust?
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  737. # [12:46] <nox> hsivonen: Yes, rust-encoding.
  738. # [12:48] * smaug____ wonders whether to attend tpax
  739. # [12:48] <smaug____> tpac
  740. # [12:48] <hsivonen> is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/rust-encoding the canonical repo?
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  742. # [12:49] <nox> hsivonen: AFAIK yes.
  743. # [12:49] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  744. # [12:50] <nox> Why, btw?
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  746. # [12:51] <annevk> ato: you can say "one of A, B, and C"
  747. # [12:51] <annevk> ato: that's what I usually use
  748. # [12:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: that sounds amazing
  749. # [12:52] <annevk> hsivonen: is the best way to get you to reply on GitHub to send you a note on IRC?
  750. # [12:53] <annevk> hsivonen: https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/issues/9 for context
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  753. # [12:57] <zcorpan> smaug____: i plan to attend tpac, fwiw
  754. # [12:57] <annevk> smaug____: it would be fun to hang out
  755. # [12:57] * Joins: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx)
  756. # [12:58] <annevk> smaug____: which incidentally is the main reason I'm going
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  758. # [12:58] <jgraham> AFAICT it's the only reason I'm going
  759. # [12:58] <smaug____> :)
  760. # [12:58] <smaug____> visiting Japan would be a good reason to go
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  763. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> I don't know if y'all heard yet but it's unlikely I'll be at TPAC this year
  764. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> because my wife and I have a baby on the way
  765. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> due Oct 14
  766. # [13:04] <annevk> So it seems the patch from jungkees didn't do line wrapping Domenic
  767. # [13:04] <annevk> We could really use some pull request bots that check a couple of things
  768. # [13:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: public congrats! :-)
  769. # [13:05] <smaug____> congrats!
  770. # [13:05] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Good news for you, but now I am slightly more wondering why I'm going to Japan :)
  771. # [13:09] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  772. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> heh
  773. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> Thanks all for the congrats
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  776. # [13:11] <Ms2ger> Poor kid ;)
  777. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> with all y'all planning to be there, I'm disappointed that I won't be. But you'll have plenty of good times without me
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  781. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> maybe you can even get gsnedders to attend this year
  782. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> that would be truly awesome
  783. # [13:19] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: congrats!
  784. # [13:21] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Yay! Babies are awesome. Congratulations!
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  789. # [13:35] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: yes, as nox said
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  795. # [13:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I'm planning to be there, bah
  796. # [13:47] <gsnedders> Not quite bought flights yet, though
  797. # [13:47] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: anyhow, congrats!
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  799. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  801. # [13:54] <hsivonen> nox: The converters in Gecko are generally the sort of code you don't want to modify and we should modify them somewhat
  802. # [13:54] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
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  804. # [13:54] <hsivonen> nox: looks like the Rust impl. doesn't pack the tables as space-efficiently in the binary as I would
  805. # [13:55] <hsivonen> (and am doing with my Big5 rewrite for Gecko)
  806. # [13:55] <nox> hsivonen: rust-encoding is quite naive on all fronts, IMO.
  807. # [13:55] <hsivonen> nox: anyway, I'll take a more careful look to see how crazy it would be to propose that we moved Gecko over to Rust-based converters
  808. # [14:01] <nox> hsivonen: Cool.
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  810. # [14:02] * gsnedders has some vague plan to start implementing more crazy SIMD optimizations for rust-encoding
  811. # [14:04] <hsivonen> for example, the Big5 data can be made space-efficient like this: https://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/0d906fb1ab90/src/nu/validator/encoding/Big5Data.java while still keeping decode fast
  812. # [14:04] <hsivonen> (don't look at the other code in that package. e.g. the single-byte stuff is very naive)
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  817. # [14:13] * MikeSmith thanks zcorpan and mkwst as well
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  821. # [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: Python to Java to C++?
  822. # [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: are you upping your code-to-code conversion game?
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  825. # [14:25] <gsnedders> annevk: you forgot about emscriptening the C++ to JS.
  826. # [14:25] <annevk> gsnedders: and then back to assembly (web)
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  828. # [14:26] <annevk> Might need some help from Xzibit here
  829. # [14:35] <roc> hsivonen: moving to Rust-based converters would be great! If anything gets in the way, bring it up in dev-platform
  830. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> Reading the text, does this test pass or fail? http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/css21_dev/single/selectors-001/format/html4/
  831. # [14:39] <annevk> pass
  832. # [14:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: though I see what you mean
  833. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> But the text is white! :)
  834. # [14:42] <gsnedders> fails, definitely fails
  835. # [14:43] <nox> hsivonen: Since you are here,
  836. # [14:43] <nox> hsivonen: do you know how Gecko works when parsing template fragments?
  837. # [14:43] <nox> I see you commented in the past on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314, which I stumbled upon while implementing templates in Servo.
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  841. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: so the code at https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/blob/master/.pre-process-main.pl#L50 causes the build to (re)download example HTML+JS+CSS files from, e.g., https://whatwg.org/demos/workers/multicore/
  842. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> see the comment in the code there
  843. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> # TODO: maybe move these to the HTML source repo, and upload them to whatwg.org from there?
  844. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> # Or maybe better, redirect from these URLs to new html.spec.whatwg.org URLs
  845. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> so yeah, later, let's do that
  846. # [14:52] * Parts: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-178-200-61-79.hsi07.unitymediagroup.de) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
  847. # [14:52] <Domenic> MikeSmith: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/30
  848. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> hey Domenic is awake
  849. # [14:52] <Domenic> It's getting to be a pretty large time sink in the build process
  850. # [14:52] <Domenic> \o/
  851. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> man you are always way ahead of me
  852. # [14:53] <annevk> You know what, we should commit those downloaded resources to whatwg/html/demos/
  853. # [14:53] <annevk> And then ask Hixie to put up redirects
  854. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> "We should move the demos into this repo, and have the build script inline them from source plus copy them to the output directory." yes
  855. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  856. # [14:54] * Parts: antoni1 (~labsimonr@201.210.56.6)
  857. # [14:54] <annevk> Hixie wanted to set up some kind of demos.whatwg.org thing but I don't think that's needed necessarily, each specification can take care of their own demos
  858. # [14:54] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, can I ask you for test reviews already? :)
  859. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> well for now I guess I can have a build script pass an option to that perl script to tell it not to download that stuff
  860. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> ok?
  861. # [14:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: not downloading them would create a bogus index infortunately
  862. # [14:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: since the demos are inlined
  863. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  864. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> I see now
  865. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
  866. # [14:56] <annevk> but they are static non-changing files afaik
  867. # [14:56] <Domenic> annevk: doesn't committing https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/a262f1d23cb8990a4735436215a01f0f4892f1a1 directly without the corresponding html-build changes break the multipage version?
  868. # [14:56] <Domenic> annevk: since .multipage-404 doesn't exist anymore?
  869. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> well we can have the build script download them *once* right
  870. # [14:57] <annevk> Domenic: therefore it's on a branch
  871. # [14:57] <annevk> Domenic: just wanted to share progress with MikeSmith
  872. # [14:57] <Domenic> annevk: tiiiiiny little branch indicator, got it
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  874. # [14:57] <annevk> (it's also out-of-date at the moment, since I changed the .htaccess to fix some other things)
  875. # [15:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, changing those lines to also store the files somewhere seems sensible
  876. # [15:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then if you run this again, update flag is not set, and the files are stored, you keep whatever you got last time
  877. # [15:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: still risks some staleness, but only locally since I guess the server will always set the update flag
  878. # [15:01] <Domenic> We should probably just bug Hixie harder to give us the demos and do it all in one step
  879. # [15:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: alternatively, once you downloaded them and stored them somewhere, just check them into the html repo and then change the script to open files there...
  880. # [15:02] <annevk> ah I guess what will fail then is subresources, which are not downloaded
  881. # [15:02] <annevk> so yeah, need to bug Hixie
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  884. # [15:03] * MikeSmith misreads label in github issue tracker as "spec trolling"
  885. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> > "still risks some staleness, but only locally since I guess the server will always set the update flag" yes
  886. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> yeah we need Hixie for the longer-term fix
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  890. # [15:10] <Domenic> Anyone want to help the parse5 maintainer understand the ruby parsing story? https://github.com/inikulin/parse5/commit/c61acf300904a85a12835ae95e13bae08d288225 I don't know it in real detail myself
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  893. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: still trying to do finance bullshit, so no
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  896. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Domenic: tl;dr: Hixie said no so it's not in the WHATWG spec, it's in the W3C spec and everyone implements it.
  897. # [15:18] <nox> gsnedders: I see.
  898. # [15:18] <nox> gsnedders: Why did Hixie say no?
  899. # [15:19] <nox> html5lib-tests follows W3C too.
  900. # [15:19] <gsnedders> nox: html5lib-tests follows what everyone is actually implementing
  901. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> Because the additional complexity isn't necessary
  902. # [15:20] <gsnedders> nox: which is WHATWG plus the Ruby stuff from the W3C spec.
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  904. # [15:21] <gsnedders> Domenic: I've commented, FWIW
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  906. # [15:23] <nox> Ms2ger: But it's already implemented by UAs. Why remove that?
  907. # [15:23] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@159.180.228.142)
  908. # [15:23] <gsnedders> nox: it wasn't removed
  909. # [15:23] <gsnedders> nox: it was added to UAs after Hixie said no
  910. # [15:23] <nox> Oh.
  911. # [15:24] <nox> So, who is wrong?
  912. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> Everyone
  913. # [15:24] <gsnedders> The WHATWG spec, because it is a lie.
  914. # [15:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You're confusing "wrong" and "dead"
  915. # [15:24] <nox> Ms2ger: Ah ah.
  916. # [15:24] <nox> gsnedders: Ok.
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  919. # [15:25] <nox> gsnedders: It lies for fragment parsing too, but no one described what Gecko actually does. :(
  920. # [15:25] <gsnedders> nox: is there interop there?
  921. # [15:25] <gsnedders> nox: like, where is it wrong?
  922. # [15:25] <nox> gsnedders: Yes there is.
  923. # [15:25] <gsnedders> nox: do we have tests for where it is wrong? what do the tests expect?
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  925. # [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: From my understanding, for example parsing innerHTML of a template,
  926. # [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: the children should end up in template contents,
  927. # [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: spec doesn't do that.
  928. # [15:26] <gsnedders> nox: oh, so it's only the template case that is wrong?
  929. # [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: Or spec is so confusing I don't see which path it follows for this.
  930. # [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: Not sure. There are other confusing details mentioned in ticket.
  931. # [15:26] <Joseph__Silber> TabAtkins, is it possible in flexbox to have equal-height elements *across multiple lines*? So that if something in one row expands, all items in all other rows would expand as well.
  932. # [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314#c23
  933. # [15:27] <nox> gsnedders: I can imagine it making weird things for foreign content fragments too.
  934. # [15:27] <nox> (Since current node is <html>, not a foreign node.)
  935. # [15:27] <gsnedders> Joseph__Silber: no, AIUI
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  937. # [15:27] <gsnedders> Joseph__Silber: (I could be wrong)
  938. # [15:28] <Joseph__Silber> Thought so too
  939. # [15:28] <gsnedders> nox: is the foreign content case not handled by the tree construction dispatcher
  940. # [15:28] <Joseph__Silber> Wanted to hear from the man himself :)
  941. # [15:28] <nox> gsnedders: Mmh, no but I think it makes use of the adjusted current node.
  942. # [15:29] <gsnedders> nox: it seems to be given it uses the adjusted current node, which is context if we're fragment case and the stack of open elements contains only html
  943. # [15:29] <gsnedders> nox: so I think the foreign content case is right per spec?
  944. # [15:29] <nox> gsnedders: I tried to unconditionally use it for step 1 of https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#appropriate-place-for-inserting-a-node but it made other unrelated tests fail.
  945. # [15:30] <gsnedders> hmm, will look into this later
  946. # [15:30] <nox> gsnedders: Thanks.
  947. # [15:30] <nox> gsnedders: Firefox and WebKit both do the correct thing btw.
  948. # [15:37] <gsnedders> FWIW, if anyone wants to look over https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5781
  949. # [15:37] <gsnedders> please feel free to do so
  950. # [15:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: I would be more inclinded to do so if you would address your own comments
  951. # [15:42] <gsnedders> pff
  952. # [15:42] <gsnedders> some of them I'd like opinions on, FWIW
  953. # [15:44] <jgraham> If the test doesn't test what the spec says but what chrome would like it to say then I agree we shouldn't take those tests
  954. # [15:44] <JakeA> TabAtkins: there's a proposal for a property to give an element a fixed aspect ratio right? Which spec is it in?
  955. # [15:45] <TabAtkins> None. There's a broken proposal for this on my blog, but it's no good for subtle reasons.
  956. # [15:45] <TabAtkins> Joseph__Silber: No, but Grid can do that.
  957. # [15:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: but like, dropping SVG fonts doesn't mean you don't need to normalise SVG font attributes, right?
  958. # [15:46] <Joseph__Silber> Yeah I know. Just Flexbox currently has way broader support.
  959. # [15:46] <Joseph__Silber> Thanks.
  960. # [15:47] <Joseph__Silber> JakeA, guess you're stuck with absolute positioning in a padded container...
  961. # [15:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: Right
  962. # [15:47] <jgraham> That doesn't make sense unless everyone has agreed on it
  963. # [15:48] <JakeA> Joseph__Silber: yeah, that's what I'm using. Just seeing if there's something less hacky on the way
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  966. # [15:52] <Domenic> gsnedders: thanks! The parse5 guy is great and so I am happy when we can help him (like you also did by commenting on the test update issue)
  967. # [15:53] * Domenic watches html5lib-tests on GitHub
  968. # [15:54] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@c-98-216-254-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  969. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Domenic: feel free to ping me on anything you see about html5lib-tests, FWIW
  970. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Domenic: regardless of whether or not it's really justified :)
  971. # [15:56] <Domenic> :)
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  977. # [16:11] <wanderview> mkwst: I guess I could just try to make a spec-directory page instead of whining about it till someone makes it for me
  978. # [16:13] <mkwst> wanderview: Yeah. Each WG should have one anyway.
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  980. # [16:14] <wanderview> mkwst: I really want a master list... including a section for speculative stuff like navigator-connect, etc
  981. # [16:15] <wanderview> I have a hard time understanding the WG structure, to be honest
  982. # [16:15] <mkwst> Sure. It would be lovely to see what's being worked on before it's done and too late to argue about it.
  983. # [16:15] <mkwst> That's because there are only two that matter, and a bazillion others. ;P
  984. # [16:15] <wanderview> mkwst: what are the two that matter?
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  986. # [16:16] <wanderview> anyway, sorry to hijack your twitter poll
  987. # [16:16] <mkwst> WebApps and WebAppSec.
  988. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> Oooh burn
  989. # [16:17] <TabAtkins> (The correct two are, of course, CSSWG and Houdini.)
  990. # [16:17] <mkwst> Ok, ok. Maybe marginally more than two.
  991. # [16:18] <wanderview> is whatwg considered a WG?
  992. # [16:18] <TabAtkins> It's right there in the name.
  993. # [16:18] <mkwst> (I forgot about CSS, which says something about my priorities. :) )
  994. # [16:18] <jgraham> This is like the Spanish inquisition
  995. # [16:18] <Domenic> It is not a W3C working group, however.
  996. # [16:18] <gsnedders> what about the WHATTF?
  997. # [16:19] <TabAtkins> That's not a WG, obvs.
  998. # [16:19] <gsnedders> I thought Houdini was a TF?
  999. # [16:20] <wanderview> I hope there is a web bureaucracy for newbies session at TPAC
  1000. # [16:20] <jgraham> Also, Browser Tools & Testing is irrelevant to you, but is at least standardising a technology that all* browsers are implementing (*well except Apple ofc)
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  1002. # [16:21] <mkwst> Point is, lots of crazy in WGs.
  1003. # [16:22] <wanderview> JakeA: do we know what day service workers is happening at tpac yet?
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  1005. # [16:22] <jgraham> You can probably ignore the Multimodal Interaction WG though :)
  1006. # [16:22] <JakeA> wanderview: Monday or Tuesday
  1007. # [16:23] <wanderview> JakeA: excellent, thanks
  1008. # [16:23] * wanderview will be gone after Thursday noon.
  1009. # [16:24] <JakeA> yeah, took that into account
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  1011. # [16:24] <wanderview> thanks... saves me trouble at home for missing halloween
  1012. # [16:24] <wanderview> although I may not be awake for it
  1013. # [16:26] <jgraham> I find it strange every year that haloween is such a big deal in the US
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  1015. # [16:26] <wanderview> JakeA: I wonder when we should start talking about agenda... would be nice to maybe dig into fall-through or foreign-fetch more
  1016. # [16:26] <wanderview> jgraham: I think its a bigger deal when your kids are still young...
  1017. # [16:28] <jgraham> Yeah, makes sense. It's just unusual for there to be a thing that happens in both the US and UK but with totally different levels of importance in the two locations.
  1018. # [16:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: I find it strange every year that someone trying to blow up Parliament in 1605 is such a big deal in the UK.
  1019. # [16:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not such a big deal that I would change my travel plans to make sure I was back to celebrate it!
  1020. # [16:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also as a Scottish person, you are supposed to be all in favour of blowing up parliment
  1021. # [16:29] <JakeA> wanderview: agreed. I'd also like to figure out a replacement for fetchEvent.client
  1022. # [16:30] <wanderview> JakeA: I thought we agreed on that one... but maybe it was just an agreement for "something else"
  1023. # [16:31] <JakeA> wanderview: I think we agreed that sync was bad for a full client, but didn't decide if it should be clientID, or an async getter
  1024. # [16:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: What? How do you know I'm part of the 45?
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  1026. # [16:33] <wanderview> jgraham: what happens for halloween in the UK?
  1027. # [16:33] <Domenic> I am going to be in Japan during TPAC time for vacation but not attending TPAC.
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  1029. # [16:34] <gsnedders> wanderview: relatively little; there's a small amount of "trick or treating" compared with the US, AIUI, and that's about it
  1030. # [16:34] <gsnedders> wanderview: typically going around known neighbours nearby
  1031. # [16:34] <jgraham> wanderview: Pretyt much nothing
  1032. # [16:34] <gsnedders> (tbf, maybe my viewpoint is bias by Scotland here?)
  1033. # [16:34] <jgraham> But enough for it to be a thing
  1034. # [16:35] <gsnedders> According to Wikipedia, guising is in origin Irish/Scottish
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  1036. # [16:35] <jgraham> I mean you can buy stuff for it and some people make lanterns and so on, but I can't imagine it ever being a big deal to miss it
  1037. # [16:35] <TabAtkins> Domenic: That's interesting timing.
  1038. # [16:35] <gsnedders> so maybe I don't know how little goes on in England and Wales?
  1039. # [16:36] <wanderview> jgraham: I wouldn't care about it except my daughter enjoys trick-or-treating and it will be the first year my son dresses up
  1040. # [16:36] <wanderview> mostly its just kids trick-or-treating in nearby neighbhorhoods
  1041. # [16:36] <wanderview> my one neighbor goes all out with decorations, lights, and music... but most people don't do much
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  1043. # [16:37] <gsnedders> also traditionally here it's not so much trick *or* treating
  1044. # [16:37] <jgraham> I usually hear at least one or two people complaining about TPAC/Halloween, so it's not just you
  1045. # [16:37] <gsnedders> you're only meant to get the treat if you do the trick
  1046. # [16:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Huh?
  1047. # [16:37] <wanderview> gsnedders: really?
  1048. # [16:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: at least in my experience in Scotland, that's still relatively true
  1049. # [16:37] <wanderview> I always thought it was a thread... give me a treat or I will egg your house
  1050. # [16:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also are you sure that isn't just Glasgow
  1051. # [16:37] <wanderview> ^thread^threat
  1052. # [16:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: not just Glasgow
  1053. # [16:37] <jgraham> Like "I set your car on fire. Now give me sweets if you don't want tyour house to burn"
  1054. # [16:38] <wanderview> I'll try that approach this year... "no candy unless you do a trick for me... do a hand stand!"
  1055. # [16:38] <gsnedders> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick-or-treating#Guising still seems relatively true in my experience
  1056. # [16:39] <gsnedders> there's more sweets-for-nothing than there were when I was a child, AFAICT, though
  1057. # [16:39] <gsnedders> and that's not exactly that long of a period
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  1074. # [17:03] <JakeA> zcorpan: thanks for the corrections btw. Appreciated
  1075. # [17:03] <zcorpan> JakeA: np. i liked the svg :-)
  1076. # [17:04] <smaug____> mounir: dglazkov or other blink folks, who maintains DeviceOrientation stuff in blink?
  1077. # [17:04] <zcorpan> still need better svg authoring tools huh
  1078. # [17:04] <mounir> smaug____: timvolodine@chromium.org
  1079. # [17:04] <smaug____> thanks
  1080. # [17:04] <mounir> smaug____: np :)
  1081. # [17:04] <JakeA> I used Illustrator for the first time and I won't be using it again. Back to Inkscape.
  1082. # [17:04] <smaug____> mounir: is he ever on IRC?
  1083. # [17:05] <JakeA> Feels like there's an open goal for a good SVG editor though. Inkscape is pretty bad but it's the only one that's an SVG editor, rather than just exports-to-svg
  1084. # [17:05] <mounir> smaug____: I wish IRC was used as much at Google than at Mozilla ;)
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  1086. # [17:08] * Krinkle_ is now known as Krinkle
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  1089. # [17:11] <annevk> So along with Fetch integration / Ruby / security stuff?, it seems that Shadow DOM integration is also high priority for HTML
  1090. # [17:12] <annevk> If anyone has anything else that's particularly important I'd love to know
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  1092. # [17:21] <Domenic> annevk: I'd say getting the ruby parsing changes integrated
  1093. # [17:21] <annevk> Domenic: yeah that's on the list
  1094. # [17:21] <nox> Fixing template fragments. :P
  1095. # [17:22] <annevk> Domenic: should we fix the parser and not worry about conformance?
  1096. # [17:23] <Domenic> annevk: hmm maybe, that might merit further discussion. I don't have strong conformance opinions in general... maybe MikeSmith can help given his validator experience.
  1097. # [17:23] <annevk> I've been slowly figuring out what's needed for Fetch since it hurts the service worker work
  1098. # [17:23] <annevk> Ironically appcache makes Fetch integration harder...
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  1100. # [17:24] <annevk> nox: hmm yeah
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  1107. # [17:43] <nox> annevk: Cool.
  1108. # [17:44] <nox> annevk: I suspect 26783 isn't unrelated.
  1109. # [17:44] <nox> (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26783)
  1110. # [17:45] <nox> They reach the same conclusion of getting rid of "adjusted current node".
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  1113. # [17:48] <wanderview> mkwst: annevk: btw, from your conversation yesterday... gecko does implement .formData() on Request
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  1115. # [17:48] <mkwst> wanderview: Yeah, no idea why Chrome doesn't.
  1116. # [17:49] <wanderview> mkwst: I assume it didn't make the cut for MVP
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  1119. # [17:51] <Krinkle> Hm.. is requestIdleCallback supposed to be guaranteed? E.g. if the user navigates away or refreshes, will it run before unload? setTimeout does not, for example.
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  1121. # [17:52] <Krinkle> but microtasks in general I imagine would get run like setImmediate and already scheduled event handlers
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  1123. # [17:53] <Krinkle> igrigorik: ^
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  1129. # [17:58] <ccardona-work> Good morning/afternoon/evening WHATWG crew o/
  1130. # [17:59] <nox> Why should "<a><tr>" in a tbody fragment be parsed as "<a></a><tr></tr>"?
  1131. # [18:00] <Krinkle> <a> is not a valid child of <tbody>
  1132. # [18:00] <Krinkle> (I think(
  1133. # [18:00] <nox> Krinkle: Hence my question. :)
  1134. # [18:00] <nox> It's in html5lib-tests.
  1135. # [18:01] <Krinkle> well, it can't remove the element. It has to go somewhere. Depending on how widely scoped the parse instruction is, it'll hoist it away as far as possible
  1136. # [18:01] <Krinkle> parsing the entire table will make it go before <table> I think
  1137. # [18:01] <Krinkle> unless there is an exception for <a> specifically.
  1138. # [18:01] <nox> https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/blob/master/tree-construction/tests_innerHTML_1.dat#L483-L491
  1139. # [18:01] <jgraham> nox: <table><tbody><a><tr> -> <a></a><table><tbody><tr>
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  1141. # [18:02] <nox> jgraham: I said in a fragment.
  1142. # [18:02] <jgraham> Oh
  1143. # [18:02] <nox> jgraham: tbody.innerHtml = '<a><tr>'
  1144. # [18:02] <Krinkle> nox: what would you expect instead? <a><tr></tr></a>?
  1145. # [18:02] <ccardona-work> This is w/out question the coolest room on freenode and one of the most valuable places that I know of online. Nice work everyone. 👍🏼
  1146. # [18:03] <nox> Krinkle: No idea.
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  1148. # [18:03] <jgraham> Well it somewhat falls out of the other behaviour
  1149. # [18:03] <Krinkle> nox: That test data is abstracted, I assume those pipes in the bottom portion refer to entire elements as siblings?
  1150. # [18:03] <nox> Krinkle: Yes.
  1151. # [18:03] <nox> Krinkle: It indents children.
  1152. # [18:03] <Krinkle> Right
  1153. # [18:03] <jgraham> <tr> closes <a>, but innerHTML obviously can't foster parent
  1154. # [18:04] <Krinkle> Ah, that's it!
  1155. # [18:04] <nox> Ok.
  1156. # [18:05] <jgraham> I mean, if you start asking "why" about the html parser you'll quickly go mad
  1157. # [18:05] <nox> jgraham: Trying to fix the spec wrt template fragments.
  1158. # [18:05] <nox> So, lots of "why".
  1159. # [18:06] <jgraham> Just picking a behaviour that makes sense seems sufficient, not trying to understand all teh historial legacy
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  1161. # [18:08] <nox> I wonder if I should just add a rule in "in template".
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  1163. # [18:08] <nox> Ah no, that wouldn't work.
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  1165. # [18:10] <nox> I'll just wait for someone to fix it I guess. :P
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  1173. # [18:28] <annevk> nox: ooh, you're going to supply a fix? Excellent
  1174. # [18:28] <nox> annevk: Tried. Kinda failed. No idea where to fix this.
  1175. # [18:29] <annevk> wanderview: ta
  1176. # [18:29] <annevk> nox: ah okay, not sure what the priority is but I do plan on getting to the parser in due course
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  1186. # [18:47] <nox> annevk: Thanks.
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  1193. # [19:00] <annevk> heycam|away: roc: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/96
  1194. # [19:01] <annevk> heycam|away: roc: seems reasonable...
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  1200. # [19:20] <annevk> nox: so I think the good news is that I think you did find a bug, the bad news is that I'm not sure how to fix it either
  1201. # [19:20] <nox> annevk: Heh.
  1202. # [19:21] <nox> annevk: Hence why I asked about whatever Gecko does, as bzbarsky implies it does something better.
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  1205. # [19:22] <annevk> nox: however, how does this work in the non-fragment case?
  1206. # [19:22] <nox> annevk: What do you mean?
  1207. # [19:23] <nox> annevk: In the non-fragment case, the template element is the current element, so the appropriate place for insertion is properly computed.
  1208. # [19:23] <nox> And in the foster parenting case, it's in the stack of open elements anyway.
  1209. # [19:23] <annevk> Actually, why does “If the adjusted insertion location is inside a template element, let it instead be inside the template element's template contents, after its last child (if any).” not work?
  1210. # [19:24] <nox> Because the template isn't in the stack of open elements, it's the context element.
  1211. # [19:24] <annevk> That seems to do the trick both for fragment and non-fragment
  1212. # [19:24] <nox> And that's the foster parenting case.
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  1214. # [19:24] <nox> Oh right, adjusted insertion location.
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  1216. # [19:25] <annevk> nox: well, the fragment parser does put <template> on the stack I think
  1217. # [19:25] <annevk> nox: see "Create a start tag token whose name is the local name of context and whose attributes are the attributes of context."
  1218. # [19:25] <nox> annevk: "Let this start tag token be the start tag token of the context node, e.g. for the purposes of determining if it is an HTML integration point."
  1219. # [19:25] <nox> Never it is put on the stack.
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  1221. # [19:26] <nox> The only element on the stack is root. "Let root be a new html element with no attributes."
  1222. # [19:26] <nox> annevk: Step 1 of "appropriate place for inserting a node" sets target to current node. Current node is root.
  1223. # [19:26] <annevk> Yeah okay
  1224. # [19:26] <annevk> Hmm
  1225. # [19:27] <nox> annevk: And even in the case of foster parenting,
  1226. # [19:27] <nox> there is no template on the stack.
  1227. # [19:27] <nox> Oh sorry, step 3.
  1228. # [19:28] <nox> Wait no, that doesn't get run either, because "If there is no last table, then let adjusted insertion location be inside the first element in the stack of open elements (the html element), after its last child (if any), and abort these substeps. (fragment case)"
  1229. # [19:28] <nox> In all cases, the element ends up in the html element, not the template contents.
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  1232. # [19:30] <annevk> So I was thinking, even if they end up in the template contents, the child nodes of root get returned in the end...
  1233. # [19:31] <annevk> But https://w3c.github.io/DOM-Parsing/#widl-Element-innerHTML doesn't deal with this either
  1234. # [19:35] <annevk> Domenic: don't merge that just yet
  1235. # [19:35] <nox> annevk: I think that's the point.
  1236. # [19:35] <nox> annevk: Parsers don't put things in templates.
  1237. # [19:36] <nox> annevk: That's what Safari and Firefox do.
  1238. # [19:38] <annevk> nox: have you tested what kind of mutation observer records they give?
  1239. # [19:38] <annevk> nox: they would be kind of inconsistent I guess if they don't do a clean replace
  1240. # [19:39] <annevk> nox: otherwise the innerHTML setter taking the returned nodes and then if it's invoked on a <template> using that to replace <template>.content might make more sense
  1241. # [19:40] <annevk> nox: not sure what Hixie's thoughts are
  1242. # [19:40] <nox> annevk: Mmh, makes sense indeed.
  1243. # [19:40] <nox> annevk: Or not.
  1244. # [19:40] <nox> Nested templates would end up with the wrong template contents owner document, I think.
  1245. # [19:42] <annevk> Hmm where would that other document come from?
  1246. # [19:43] <nox> annevk: Mmh right, never mind.
  1247. # [19:43] <nox> annevk: Your idea means running adopting the whole tree again from another document though, maybe that's a bit too much post-processing?
  1248. # [19:46] <annevk> nox: adopting is mostly changing a pointer
  1249. # [19:46] <annevk> nox: and not doing this means weird mutations
  1250. # [19:47] <nox> annevk: Yeah I know, but that's still traversing a tree once more. :P
  1251. # [19:47] <annevk> nox: do you actually need to run it though?
  1252. # [19:48] <annevk> nox: could have fast paths for a ton of this stuff
  1253. # [19:48] <annevk> nox: mutation observers is important because it's observable from JavaScript
  1254. # [19:48] <nox> annevk: The nested templates in the fake document will end up in the fake document's appropriate template contents owner document.
  1255. # [19:48] <nox> The nested templates' template contents* sorry.
  1256. # [19:49] <nox> So yes, they need to be re-adopted, AFAICT.
  1257. # [19:49] <nox> annevk: I guess mutation observers see nothing about the template contents through innerHTML on a template, will check tonight at home.
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  1259. # [19:50] <annevk> nox: you could even have innerHTML reset .content
  1260. # [19:51] <annevk> nox: rather than replace all...
  1261. # [19:51] <nox> annevk: What do you mean?
  1262. # [19:51] * Krinkle_ is now known as Krinkle
  1263. # [19:51] <annevk> nox: you take the return value of the HTML fragment parsing algorithm, run adopt, and stick it on .content
  1264. # [19:53] <nox> Not sure, it would be surprising if you had a hold on .content before.
  1265. # [19:53] <annevk> Yeah, replace all is better
  1266. # [19:53] <nox> annevk: And it makes even weirder mutations, IMO.
  1267. # [19:53] <annevk> well you wouldn't see any...
  1268. # [19:53] <nox> Yeah, no one would notice the change, given there is nothing related to templates in mutation observers.
  1269. # [19:54] <nox> Whereas if someone is observing the template contents, replace all would do the trick.
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  1282. # [20:38] <Domenic> annevk OK, good thing I got stuck in meetings for an hour :)
  1283. # [20:38] <Domenic> IDL return types are basically non normative docs anyway though...
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  1289. # [20:55] <poosanth> Anyone know any good articles for folks starting out with trying to wrap their head around wcag 2
  1290. # [20:59] <wanderview> jsbell: are you ok with this change to the Cache wpt tests? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5748
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  1298. # [21:16] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "it might take a few days" was not very nice of you :)
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  1302. # [21:23] <jsbell> wanderview: looking...
  1303. # [21:23] <wanderview> jsbell: basically new Request() is now spec'd to throw if userpass are in the url
  1304. # [21:24] <wanderview> so it blows up trying to setup the test corpus before running any tests
  1305. # [21:25] <jsbell> wanderview: yeah, looks good, just seeing what we did in our copy... (or maybe we haven't implemented that yet)
  1306. # [21:25] <wanderview> jsbell: ideally we would test for the Request constructor in the fetch wpt tests once we get them upstreamed
  1307. # [21:25] <wanderview> for the credentials in the constructor
  1308. # [21:27] <jsbell> Ah, we haven't implemented that change yet, which is why our tests still have those cases. :P
  1309. # [21:27] <jsbell> crbug.com/474439
  1310. # [21:28] <jsbell> wanderview: lgtm'd
  1311. # [21:29] <wanderview> thanks!
  1312. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: "few" is a variable term 😀
  1313. # [21:34] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I’ve heard guesstimates around 1500
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  1315. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> Seems plausible
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  1317. # [21:38] <jsbell> wanderview: note the comment #2 in that issue though... a SW could intercept a fetch made with credentials in the URL and put() (etc) the Request into a cache
  1318. # [21:39] <wanderview> jsbell: hmm... I thought FetchEvent was spec'd to run Request constructor
  1319. # [21:41] <jsbell> wanderview: doesn't seem to be... and it'd be weird if intercepts couldn't handle that...
  1320. # [21:41] <wanderview> jsbell: yea, you are correct
  1321. # [21:48] <wanderview> jsbell: should we reopen this review then?
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  1323. # [21:50] <jsbell> wanderview: IMHO a separate one would be fine. I'd need to be in a different file anyway
  1324. # [21:50] <wanderview> k, thanks again
  1325. # [22:00] <wanderview> jsbell: thanks for pointing that out... we have a bug where we run Request::Constructor() when creating FetchEvent...
  1326. # [22:00] * wanderview adds it to the list...
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  1328. # [22:03] <wanderview> annevk: are there any other restrictions in Request::Constructor() besides url userpass that you would expect html and other specs to bypass?
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  1331. # [22:04] <wanderview> annevk: I guess it would be nice to have a "create a Request" function that other specs go through that has expected assertions... like only simple methods ever passed for no-cors, etc
  1332. # [22:05] <nox> annevk: WebKit patches innerHTML directly.
  1333. # [22:05] <nox> annevk: Ah no wait, that's just calling the serializer.
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  1335. # [22:06] <nox> annevk: When serialising, the spec says "If the node is a template element, then let the node instead be the template element's template contents (a DocumentFragment node).", so I would expect parsing to be the same way too.
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