/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-03 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Sep 03 00:00:01 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:08] <mounir> smaug____: what's the problem with presentation api?
# [00:08] <smaug____> just a bit over-engineered API
# [00:09] <smaug____> too much Promise usage etc
# [00:09] <smaug____> I'll file some bugs
# [00:09] <mounir> smaug____: you might be too late to the game but feel free to file bugs
# [00:09] <smaug____> not the first time I've seen overuse of Promises
# [00:09] <smaug____> mounir: how so?
# [00:09] <smaug____> it is not stable or anything
# [00:09] <mounir> people have been working on this api for two years
# [00:10] <mounir> not sure how open they are for cosmetic changes at that point
# [00:10] <smaug____> People have worked on DOM APIs for decades,and still changing it ;)
# [00:10] <mounir> but again, file bugs, I'm pretty sure anything reasonable will be considered
# [00:10] <smaug____> mounir: the API has changed recently, and apparently the spec hasn't been reviewed
# [00:10] <mounir> smaug____: I doubt people are making backward incompatible changes ;)
# [00:10] <mounir> smaug____: define "reviewed" :)
# [00:11] <smaug____> well, reviewed as "is it implementeable"
# [00:11] <smaug____> implementable
# [00:11] <mounir> smaug____: Mozilla is implementing that
# [00:11] <smaug____> like there are some mistakes in webidl etc
# [00:11] <smaug____> mounir: I know, I'm reviewing that work
# [00:11] <mounir> smaug____: and unless something comes up, Chrome will ship that in the next Beta
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# [00:13] <smaug____> mounir: chrome has shipped plenty of unstable APIs, like shadow dom ;)
# [00:13] <mounir> smaug____: I guess
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# [00:18] * smaug____ wonders what chrome does when (new PresentationSessionConnectEvent("")).session is executed in the context where PresentationSessionConnectEvent is available
# [00:19] <smaug____> that is a case broken in the spec, as an example
# [00:19] <smaug____> looks like broken also in blink source cod
# [00:19] <smaug____> e
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# [01:57] <nox> I think the adopting steps need to be run recursively in https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-node-adopt-ext.
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# [02:21] <nox> https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/66/files
# [02:21] <nox> Err, https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/66
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# [03:09] * MikeSmith wonders if Domenic and annevk got things worked out as far at the teams stuff for the repo; seems like it
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# [03:33] <Domenic> yepyep
# [03:37] <Domenic> The problem with all this crazy tooling is that if I wanted to extend it I'd start writing node.js code
# [03:37] <Domenic> But we already have like 4 languages and prereqs
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# [03:37] <Domenic> Adding a fifth seems bad
# [03:39] <Domenic> E.g. Sebmaster is basically doing https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/55 in node already for independent reasons (he's writing a generic spec Web IDL scraper)
# [03:39] <Domenic> I guess it should really be done in wattsi though since wattsi already has a parsed representation of the document
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# [04:05] <MikeSmith> I'd be willing to work on extending the wattsi code if we really thought that was the best way to do it
# [04:06] <MikeSmith> But it seems like it might not be best, I dunno
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# [04:07] <MikeSmith> I personally would rather we rewrote it all in Rust 😀
# [04:09] <MikeSmith> Anyway, I have a question about document.evaluate
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# [04:10] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering why the current normative spec for it is
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# [04:11] <MikeSmith> and if the answer is, the DOM3 spec, then that seems less than ideal
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# [04:11] <MikeSmith> seems like it should be re-specced in a modern
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# [04:12] <MikeSmith> *modern spec
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# [04:32] <Domenic> Hmm. It doesn't show up in https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-core-changes
# [04:35] <Domenic> Oh jeez it's in prose In a DOM implementation which supports the XPath 3.0 feature, as described above, the XPathEvaluator interface will be implemented on the same object which implements the Document interface
# [04:35] <Domenic> MikeSmith: my thinking is that DOM is not meant to subsume DOM 3 XPath, just DOM 3 Core.
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# [04:36] <Domenic> There's not too much there though, it could probably be subsumed and modernized
# [04:37] <MikeSmith> Yeah
# [04:39] <MikeSmith> devs and libraries do actually use it, so it would be nice to actually have a good spec for it
# [04:39] <MikeSmith> WebDriver relies on it
# [04:40] <MikeSmith> or at least WebDriver implementations/libraries Do
# [04:40] <MikeSmith> through an abstraction
# [04:41] <Domenic> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/xml/XPathEvaluator.idl&q=xpath%20idl&sq=package:chromium&l=24 is interesting
# [04:41] * MikeSmith looks
# [04:43] <MikeSmith> dang that UI is makes it hard to read on mobile
# [04:43] <MikeSmith> frame layout
# [04:43] * MikeSmith rotates
# [04:43] <Domenic> https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/297 https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/295 https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/296 usage stats... could in theory remove createExpression?
# [04:44] <Domenic> Which would be nice because then we could kill XPathExpression entirely
# [04:44] * MikeSmith looks more
# [04:46] <MikeSmith> Domenic: yes
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# Session Close: Thu Sep 03 05:06:05 2015
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# Session Start: Thu Sep 03 05:06:05 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [05:07] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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# [05:45] <annevk> Domenic: MikeSmith: ideally we would have team permissions for creating and pushing to branches other than master, and indeed also assigning etc.
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# [05:46] <annevk> Domenic: MikeSmith: with just master controlled by a small set of folks
# [05:46] <annevk> Domenic: but alas
# [05:46] <annevk> I guess we could ask for that...
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# [06:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: if by "we could ask for that" you mean, ask github to add that feature, then I agree. But that said, even if they say Yeah and think it's the greatest idea in the world, it would be like 6 months at least before it's actualy deployed
# [06:06] <MikeSmith> so in practice that doesn't solve any problem for us
# [06:06] <MikeSmith> (plus, you're up really eearly again)
# [06:06] <annevk> If I could solve all my problems within six months by sending an email...
# [06:06] <MikeSmith> haha
# [06:07] <annevk> We're going to bed earlier as well, so it evens out
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> ok
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> so anyway
# [06:07] <botie> so is probably TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> document.evaluate
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> thoughts?
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# [06:07] <annevk> Well, I'm not opposed to specifying it, but it doesn't seem high priority
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> e.g., fine to leave it as-is in DOM3 XPath
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> oh
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> ok
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> I guess so
# [06:08] <annevk> Note that we have the DOM XPath wiki page that has more detail
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> ah ok, will lok
# [06:08] <MikeSmith> yeah I vaguely recalled there being something
# [06:09] <MikeSmith> webdriver users rely on XPath very heavily
# [06:09] <MikeSmith> but they don't care how it works under the hood, as long as it works
# [06:09] <MikeSmith> so if we could replace what we have now with something that's modern and better that would be great too
# [06:10] <TabAtkins> ...why is botie talking to me?
# [06:10] <MikeSmith> I mean, not just re-speccing it properly, but creating a new modern API
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# [06:11] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: botie was apparently responding to me saying "so", and thinks "so" means "probably TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again"
# [06:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: not sure about new APIs, that seems even less relevant now than it when that came up a decade ago or so
# [06:12] * MikeSmith reads https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_XPath
# [06:12] <TabAtkins> Sure, that makes sense
# [06:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: especially since nobody is interested in extending the XPath language
# [06:13] <annevk> (when it comes to the web platform anyway)
# [06:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: I would think so as well if I didn't see a dozen questions a day on StackOverflow who are trying to get stuff done with webdriver and trying to figure out XPath expressions to let them do what they need
# [06:14] <MikeSmith> which is typically, "I need to make webdriver emulate a click on this specific element"
# [06:14] <annevk> Can't WebDriver provide a proprietary API then? Or a small wrapper library?
# [06:15] <MikeSmith> why a proprietary API? WebDriver is a standard
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# [06:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: and webdriver already puts a wrapper/abstraction around the XPath stuff. All webdriver implementations have something called findElementByXPath or something like that
# [06:21] <MikeSmith> I guess it's standard actually
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# [06:21] * MikeSmith should read the spec more since he's nominally in charge of that WG
# [06:22] <MikeSmith> it returns a thing called WebElement
# [06:23] <MikeSmith> anyway it seems to me there's plenty of evidence that WebDriver is solving real problems. And in practice right now WebDriver users rely very heavily on XPath, so XPath is solving a real problem for them and helping them get real work done
# [06:24] <MikeSmith> admittedly their XPath usage eventually could be replaced by some other addressing mechanism/API
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> I think their tools actually already provide some method that allows doing it with Selectors
# [06:25] * terinjokes raises hand as WebDriver user who's used years of libxml experience to craft XPath
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> hey terinjokes
# [06:26] <MikeSmith> my impression is that despite having Selectors support as an alternative, very few webdriver devs actually use it
# [06:26] * MikeSmith shuts up for now
# [06:26] * MikeSmith changes his mind
# [06:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: about "nobody is interested in extending the XPath language", it arguably doesn't need extending. XPath 1.0 works fine as far as webdriver users go at least
# [06:27] <terinjokes> i've used xpath to select a specific element (i want element with class "x" that's in the third div with class "y" with the parent C, though obviously written backwards from this)
# [06:27] <terinjokes> which might be possible as a selector, but I don't know how to do it
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> I've not seen many normal people saying that XPath 1.0 needs to be extended to do what they need
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> but maybe I'm not aware of other deficiencies that are causing any problems we actually care about
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> oofs
# [06:29] <MikeSmith> s/TabAtkins/terinjokes/ there
# [06:29] * MikeSmith shuts up again
# [06:29] <TabAtkins> I KEEP GETTING MENTIONED FOR NO REASON
# [06:30] <MikeSmith> hahah
# [06:30] <MikeSmith> botie: bug TabAtkins about something
# [06:30] <botie> MikeSmith: i'm not following you...
# [06:30] <boogyman> you could always change your nick to NotTabAtkins
# [06:31] <TabAtkins> GODDAMMIT
# [06:31] <terinjokes> MikeSmith: my understanding is that botie only responds in a useful manner to "so"
# [06:32] <MikeSmith> so what?
# [06:32] <botie> it has been said that so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?
# [06:32] <MikeSmith> oh man that's annoying
# [06:32] <MikeSmith> will delete that now
# [06:33] <MikeSmith> in the mean time https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#element-location-strategies
# [06:33] <TabAtkins> OMIGOD BOTIE SHUT UP
# [06:33] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#findelements & https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#findelement
# [06:35] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@2400:e780:801:232:2677:3ff:fece:dc64) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [06:41] <terinjokes> i think i might steal this phrase in my future "specs": "However, in the absence of another specification actually defining this, here are some guidelines for implementors"
# [06:50] <MikeSmith> hahah
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# [06:51] <MikeSmith> yeah I remember now why I avoided reading that spec in detail
# [06:51] <MikeSmith> anyway jgraham and Andreas Tolfsen have been helping on that spec and it's getting much better
# [06:55] <MikeSmith> terinjokes: oh wait, what spec were you quoting there?
# [06:55] * Quits: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [06:56] <terinjokes> MikeSmith: the w3 draft version of html. it's how the non-normative sections about XSLT and <script> and <template> begin
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# [06:56] <MikeSmith> ah ok
# [06:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: that XPath is fine for WebDriver doesn't mean there should be a better API in browsers I think
# [06:56] <terinjokes> i got linked to from the WebDriver spec somehow
# [06:57] <MikeSmith> botie, so is the word that comes before la
# [06:57] <botie> ...but so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?...
# [06:57] <MikeSmith> botie, no, so is the word that comes before la
# [06:57] <botie> ...but so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?...
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> fuck
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> no, so is the word that comes before la
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> botie, so is the word that comes before la
# [06:58] <botie> ...but so is TabAtkins going to do the geocities look again?...
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> no, so is the word that comes before la
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I suppose so
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# [07:16] <MikeSmith> so what?
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# [07:17] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I just deleted the entire "is"-association DB that botie was using
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# [07:17] <MikeSmith> I guess I should just turn it off but I don't want to spend 30 minutes or whatever it would take to do that atm
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# [07:26] <annevk> Ugh, error: did you mean `--ff-only` (with two dashes ?)
# [07:26] <annevk> Pedantic software...
# [07:37] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Haha, thanks
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# [07:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: meta note: for stuff like https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/db33a45abcfddb6c17605ed64d474d1489090335#commitcomment-13039312 I think the best workflow would be that you just make those changes directly on the branch yourself. Since they are relatively minor and seem uncontroversial.
# [07:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: and since it takes less time to actually do it than it does to have a discussion about it
# [07:56] <annevk> Yeah I suppose, since we just started it's still a bit unclear what everyone cares strongly about
# [07:56] <MikeSmith> yeah true
# [07:56] <MikeSmith> never know sometimes
# [07:56] <MikeSmith> that's part of why I try not to feel too strongly about anything (not that I always succeed)
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# [07:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: are you around for a while longer?
# [07:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: wondering what "ln -s ../images .wattsi-output/multipage-html/" is in the build-script
# [07:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: I realize it creates a link, but it does so from the current working directory seemingly
# [07:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm around for the rest of the day (hours and hours)
# [08:00] <MikeSmith> I didn't know the build script did that
# [08:00] * MikeSmith looks
# [08:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: that seems to me like what exatly
# [08:05] <MikeSmith> *exactly what it should be doing
# [08:05] <MikeSmith> that is, it's working as intended
# [08:05] <MikeSmith> is it causing some problem for you?
# [08:05] <MikeSmith> errors?
# [08:05] <annevk> I'm just confused what is being linked
# [08:06] <annevk> Is it going to the parent directory of html-build/?
# [08:06] <annevk> Hmm, seems I have to go for a bit
# [08:06] <annevk> Back in half an hour or so
# [08:07] <MikeSmith> k
# [08:07] <MikeSmith> I'll still be here
# [08:07] <annevk> My tentative plan for today is to create .html/ as input directory and have .generated-html/ as output directory or some such. So not all the files are cluttered with the rest...
# [08:07] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [08:07] <MikeSmith> well my plan for today is to actually work on the build script
# [08:07] <MikeSmith> so maybe we should work on it together when you have time
# [08:08] <MikeSmith> I have time for the next 3.5 hours or so
# [08:08] <annevk> Okay
# [08:08] <MikeSmith> then I'm on the train for ~2 hours
# [08:08] <annevk> I've been hacking on https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/issues/1
# [08:08] <MikeSmith> ok
# [08:08] * MikeSmith looks
# [08:08] <annevk> I fixed the bits that need to be done in html/, now I need to fix the bits in html-build/
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# [08:09] <annevk> I can upload the html/ branch now so you can have a look
# [08:09] <MikeSmith> super
# [08:10] <MikeSmith> yeah let's get this stuff done today if we can
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# [08:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/a262f1d23cb8990a4735436215a01f0f4892f1a1
# [08:11] <annevk> Not a big change so far :-)
# [08:12] <annevk> Gotta bring O to daycare and then I'll be back to do the remaining bits
# [08:12] <MikeSmith> hai
# [08:12] <MikeSmith> will be here and will be looking at it all in the mean time
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# [08:14] * MikeSmith sets aside the 2352 unread messages in his inbox for a while
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# [08:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: turns out I didn't have to today
# [08:21] <MikeSmith> ah OK
# [08:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: anyway, so the problem is that the build script removes the /multipage/ directory
# [08:21] <MikeSmith> so, let's do this thing!
# [08:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
# [08:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [08:22] <MikeSmith> as it should I guess
# [08:22] <MikeSmith> since it rebuilds it all
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# [08:22] * Quits: beverloo (beverloo@nat/google/x-keghyhdsaiubchjw) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [08:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: whereas we want to just copy it from "input" and add wattsi output
# [08:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [08:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: looking at it all now
# [08:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: so we want to keep .wattsi-output where it is now?
# [08:27] <MikeSmith> or in our re-plan do we want to move it elsewhere?
# [08:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think that's fine
# [08:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: do you know why complete.html is copied and not simply moved to index?
# [08:28] <MikeSmith> do not know but will look and find out
# [08:28] <MikeSmith> before we start making further changes, I would like to land Domenic's patch for https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/pull/10
# [08:28] <MikeSmith> OK?
# [08:29] <MikeSmith> that's not going to break anything, but if we make changes it might break the merge-ability of that patch
# [08:29] <MikeSmith> so I think it's better to land it now
# [08:29] <MikeSmith> land=push
# [08:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems fine if it works
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# [08:30] <MikeSmith> ok
# [08:30] <MikeSmith> will do it in minute
# [08:30] <MikeSmith> right now, still looking that thd build script
# [08:31] <annevk> I think complete.html not being moved is some leftover we forgot to clean up
# [08:31] <annevk> since it's identical to index
# [08:31] <MikeSmith> so yeah, there is no good reason for complete.html to be cp'ed instead of mv'ed
# [08:31] <MikeSmith> probably yeah
# [08:32] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/pull/12
# [08:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: so my idea was that we create .html; everything inside .html you need to ln yourself to whatwg/html
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# [08:34] <MikeSmith> manually?
# [08:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: build.sh then copies .html to .html-build and we operate on that
# [08:34] <MikeSmith> manually you'd need to run "ln -s" yourself?
# [08:35] <MikeSmith> ah I thnk I see what you were saying
# [08:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: well, perhaps we could check if it's in ../html or allow for a parameter
# [08:35] <MikeSmith> yes
# [08:35] <MikeSmith> exxactly
# [08:35] <MikeSmith> so yeah, that's easy
# [08:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: and we destroy .html-build at the start of build.sh
# [08:35] <MikeSmith> ok
# [08:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: both also need to be in .gitignore
# [08:36] <MikeSmith> yeah sure that's really minor and can wait
# [08:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: I'm still not sure what ln -s ../images .wattsi-output/multipage-html/ does though
# [08:38] <MikeSmith> yeah me neither, after looking at it. But I'll figure it out
# [08:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: does that mean that whenever you literally use "../images" it looks in the other place?
# [08:38] <MikeSmith> right now though I'm getting a fatal build error: "can't find instance of attr-img-alt"
# [08:38] <annevk> No that can't be it
# [08:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: looking...
# [08:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't get that error
# [08:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, may be due to my jacking around with my local wattsi yesterday
# [08:41] <MikeSmith> will figure it out shortly
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# [08:53] <MikeSmith> ... and, now hanging at "wget -o /dev/null -N http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007xml/unicode.xml"
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> there's not good reason for that "-o /dev/null"
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> it's not hanging.. just taking a long time, but because of that -o /dev/null there's no indicator of what's going on
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# [08:56] * MikeSmith will later kill all of those redirects of stderr to /dev/null, and whatever else there may be that prevents useful debugging info from being emitted
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# [09:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: please pull
# [09:03] <MikeSmith> so that you'll have the wattsi-service change
# [09:03] <MikeSmith> and then also please rm your local wattsi executable
# [09:03] <MikeSmith> so that we know for sure we're working from the same thing
# [09:04] <MikeSmith> (and working from what we want others to use later)
# [09:04] <annevk> okay
# [09:05] * mkwst_zzz is now known as mkwst
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# [09:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: I get "Local wattsi is not present; trying the build server..." while I have wattsi locally installed
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> hmm my push didn't auto-close that PR and github still thinks the branch has unmerged changes. dunno what I did wrong but not going to worry about it since the changes are actually merged
# [09:08] <Domenic> complete.html is a real URL that used to be a thing people linked to
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
# [09:08] <Domenic> If we move instead of copy, we'd need to add a redirect.
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> true
# [09:08] <annevk> Domenic: okay I'll add a redirect
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> yes
# [09:08] <annevk> That wattsi no longer works locally seems like a problem
# [09:09] <Domenic> Ah damn that is bad
# [09:09] <Domenic> I must have gotten my bash existence test wrong
# [09:09] <Domenic> But also I need to sleep
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> Domenic: no worries
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> but yeah if [ -e "wattsi" ] is wrong
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> it means, look for a wattsi file in the current dir, right?
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> whereas, it might be somewhere else
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's easy to fix
# [09:11] <Domenic> I should have actually looked up -e
# [09:11] <MikeSmith> bash stuff is arcane
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# [09:11] <MikeSmith> teh docs don't help terrifically much
# [09:13] <annevk> Added a redirect to .htaccess, the relative URL should work as final argument since we have a new enough version of Apache
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# [09:14] <MikeSmith> Domenic: also I should have actually tested it for the wattsi-is-present-locally case before I pushed it
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> (I just tested only the wattsi-isn't-present-locally case, by removing my wattsi)
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# [09:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: so, about that ln -s ../images .wattsi-output/multipage-html/
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# [09:20] <MikeSmith> as I said, that is doing what it's supposed to
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# [09:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: please do ls -al .wattsi-output/multipage-html/
# [09:21] <MikeSmith> and see what it shows you
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# [09:27] <annevk> >No such file or directory
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# [09:28] <annevk> I don't have multipage-html generated...
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# [09:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, why not?
# [09:32] * MikeSmith looks at the branch to see if you changed something else
# [09:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: I might have forgotten to ln some file I suppose
# [09:33] <cvrebert> annevk: Do you mean "were you using a nightly build?" or "please re-test in a nightly build?" ?
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# [09:42] <nox> annevk: Can you help me a couple of minutes? Trying to figure if the spec forgot something for <template>.
# [09:42] <nox> var template = document.createElement("template"); template.innerHTML = '<template id="t2">Some text</template>';
# [09:42] <nox> I can't find in the spec how the set inner HTML can end up in `template`'s template contents.
# [09:44] <nox> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#appropriate-place-for-inserting-a-node This scans the stack of open elements, but AFAICT in the fragment case, the only opened element is <html>, reading https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing-html-fragments.
# [09:44] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> Domenic: is there any good reason for not having the build script automatically run the "svn checkout http://www.unicode.org/repos/cldr/trunk/common/main/ .cldr-data" step?
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> because otherwise we should just have the build script do it, right?
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# [09:53] <nox> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#reset-the-insertion-mode-appropriately Oh I see, step 17.
# [09:54] <nox> Ah no, misread step 17. Doesn't change stack of open elements.
# [09:55] <nox> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#stack-of-open-elements says: 'In the fragment case, the stack of open elements is initialised to contain an html element that is created as part of that algorithm. (The fragment case skips the "before html" insertion mode.)'
# [09:55] <nox> I'm pretty sure template fragments can't be parsed correctly with the current rules.
# [09:56] <nox> I think that step 1 in https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#appropriate-place-for-inserting-a-node should use "adjusted current node".
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> this whole build script really should be just a makefile, as I think mkwst pointed out before
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> but anyway, one thing at a time
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> we can port it to make later
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# [10:02] * cvrebert wait for butthurt Windows users to complain about make
# [10:05] <nox> The current element being <html> in the case of fragment parsing sounds wrong. :(
# [10:06] <MikeSmith> cvrebert: I guess but to begin with, the script is bash script, no at .bat
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# [10:29] <annevk> cvrebert: I guess I'm saying only use nightly builds when working on standards and browsers :-)
# [10:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: sorry, got called away again, did you make some progress?
# [10:30] <cvrebert> annevk: Nightly still acts equally weird in that case. Just like the other browsers. :-)
# [10:31] <annevk> nox: I'm not sure
# [10:31] <annevk> cvrebert: it doesn't here...
# [10:31] <nox> annevk: About which part?
# [10:31] <annevk> cvrebert: 43.0a1 (2015-09-02)
# [10:31] <annevk> nox: about innerHTML
# [10:31] <nox> annevk: I'm 99.44% sure I'm right about template contents not being used in this case.
# [10:32] <nox> annevk: And given it specifically sets the stack of template insertion modes in the case of template fragment, I think this is a bug.
# [10:32] <nox> annevk: Firefox and Safari put #t2 in the outer template contents.
# [10:32] <nox> And there are WPT tests that check for that.
# [10:32] <annevk> nox: HTML has one open bug about adjusted iirc
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# [10:32] <nox> /html/semantics/scripting-1/the-template-element/definitions/template-contents.html
# [10:32] <nox> annevk: Oh, link?
# [10:32] <annevk> nox: I can look...
# [10:33] <nox> annevk: I plan to make a PR for HTML to make template use the adopting steps appropriately anyway.
# [10:33] <annevk> nox: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314
# [10:33] <annevk> nox: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26783 is another bug on that algorithm though unrelated
# [10:34] <annevk> nox: that sounds great. Please include a pointer to the tests and some documentation since I'm sure we'll need all that to review
# [10:34] <nox> bzbarksy sounds right.
# [10:34] <annevk> nox: none of us is very experienced in this part of the code
# [10:34] <annevk> nox: that's not uncommon :-)
# [10:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: making progress, yeah
# [10:35] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/26#issuecomment-137360727 should I ask this person to keep discourse respectful or just leave it?
# [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: feel free to work on other stuff for the time being. I think at this point I understand what you and Domenic want and what we need, so I'll work on making it. And if I misunderstand anything, we just iterate.
# [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: do not ask publicly
# [10:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: that sounds great, thank you
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# [10:36] <MikeSmith> I think the first rule of dealing with trolls is not to give them any additional public attention
# [10:36] <annevk> GitHub has no way to message another usage
# [10:36] <annevk> s/usage/user/
# [10:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:37] <MikeSmith> so just delete the comment
# [10:37] <MikeSmith> IMHO
# [10:37] <annevk> Seems reasonable for this one
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# [10:37] <MikeSmith> github should have a way you can flag a comment as spam so that a github dev can deal with it
# [10:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:38] <annevk> I was tempted before to just remove the "Please reopen" statement since it wasn't constructive, but I decided not to since I figured it might create more flames
# [10:38] <nox> Being fed up by a technical decision isn't trolling, IMO
# [10:38] <nox> Happens to all of us.
# [10:38] <MikeSmith> sure
# [10:38] <nox> Isn't constructive, but not trolling.
# [10:38] <MikeSmith> but *expressing* frustration like that is trolling
# [10:38] <nox> Also, reporting people means getting them shadow-banned, sometimes, on GH.
# [10:38] <annevk> nox: saying "I laugh at your statements" is trolling, imo
# [10:39] <nox> annevk: It's being fed up, and thinking incompetence is involved.
# [10:39] <MikeSmith> and it adds nothing constructive, so deleting it is no loss
# [10:39] <nox> MikeSmith: I would redact it. Deleting sounds like you are scared.
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# [10:39] <MikeSmith> nox: IMHO, somebody adding comments like that deserves to be shadow-banned
# [10:40] <nox> (In a fed up people mind that think Google, of all entities, is feeling pressure.)
# [10:40] <nox> MikeSmith: What?!
# [10:40] <nox> Shadow-banned is the most passive-aggressive douche move ever.
# [10:40] <MikeSmith> wow
# [10:40] <MikeSmith> I guess I don't even know what shadow-banning is then
# [10:41] <nox> MikeSmith: You are banned,
# [10:41] <nox> but everything works.
# [10:41] <nox> You don't know you are banned.
# [10:41] <annevk> cvrebert: ah, you're not using Nightly, developer edition is not recent enough it seems
# [10:41] <MikeSmith> oh
# [10:41] <MikeSmith> nox: yeah that's just dumb
# [10:41] <nox> MikeSmith: It's fun though, your repositories are still available and whatnot,
# [10:41] <MikeSmith> nox: anyway, maybe you can see what effect comments like that have
# [10:41] <nox> but your profile says 404,
# [10:41] <nox> so in a way,
# [10:41] <nox> trolling on GH is the best way to get private repos for free.
# [10:42] <nox> MikeSmith: Sure.
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> that guy's comment has made the two of us argue with each other and waste time on it
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> right now I just want to fixing the HTML spec build script
# [10:42] <nox> MikeSmith: But I say stupid things when I am fed up by a spec sometimes. :) If that person has an history of doing this, sure.
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> but instead this guy has sucked us into his little world of negativity
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> sure
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> we all do it sometimes
# [10:43] <MikeSmith> we need our friends to tell us to cut it out
# [10:43] <cvrebert> annevk: but anyhow, it's a cross-browser quirk
# [10:43] <MikeSmith> nox: anyway, I do understand what you're saying
# [10:44] <MikeSmith> I'm just a little sensitive after 8 years of dealing with lots of dysfunctional communication and people in a really large WG
# [10:44] <nox> Ah ah.
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# [10:45] <annevk> cvrebert: well was
# [10:45] <annevk> cvrebert: Firefox is now correct, I'm sure other browsers would be okay with cleaning up their code too, since the new behavior would be simpler
# [10:46] <nox> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314#c23
# [10:47] <cvrebert> annevk: although this does beg the question why everyone had this same quirk in the first place
# [10:48] <annevk> cvrebert: yeah, I wonder what bug changed the behavior in Firefox and what the actual patch was for that, but not curious enough to start digging
# [10:49] <mkwst> annevk: Is there a term in Fetch for things that the browser requests outside the context of a page? We used to have an "internal" context for those requests... I guess an `initiator` and `destination` of ""?
# [10:50] <annevk> mkwst: I guess it depends on whether it's exposed somehow or not
# [10:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: is there a fix for the wattsi thing yet to use the local one when available?
# [10:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: or should I look into that? kind of annoying to have that broken
# [10:50] <mkwst> annevk: I'm looking at https://github.com/w3c/webappsec/issues/246, which concerns requests made to populate browser UI.
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: will fix it right now and push it master
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> gimme a couple minutes
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# [10:52] <annevk> mkwst: that seems like /favicon type of requests which do go through the service worker, no?
# [10:52] <annevk> mkwst: are they really distinct from the page?
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# [10:53] <mkwst> They aren't revealed to the page until the user chooses to do so, and then only one of potentially several.
# [10:53] <mkwst> That is, the browser constructs the chooser UI using SEKRIT INFORMATIONS, and then, if the user chooses to do so, reveals a portion of those secrets to the page.
# [10:53] <mkwst> So, no, they aren't requests generated by the page, or that the page should know about.
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# [10:55] <annevk> But the page controls the URLs, no?
# [10:55] <annevk> Sounds leaky...
# [10:56] <yoav> mkwst: Trying to catch up on which requests you're talking about, but are such requests excluded from things like resource timing?
# [10:56] <mkwst> No, the page doesn't control the URLs. Federations, for instance, will show up in the chooser even if you've never used them on the page.
# [10:57] <mkwst> yoav: requests to populate the images in interfaces like https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/credentialmanagement/#user-mediated-selection
# [10:57] <annevk> Hmm
# [10:57] <mkwst> annevk: Or the same interface in the context of chrome://settings/passwords/totallyAwesomeConfigurationPage
# [10:58] <annevk> I guess as long as you set the skip service worker flag you should be okay
# [10:58] <annevk> And then it doesn't really matter what you set for the rest, except for CSP and such, except since there's no client those won't work either I assume
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# [11:02] <mkwst> Right. I think that's the case.
# [11:02] <mkwst> Cool, thanks.
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# [11:07] <annevk> mkwst: sorry for not finding all style nits in one go
# [11:07] <annevk> (re csp state)
# [11:08] <mkwst> annevk: no worries. the squashing/force-pushing is a bit annoying, though, as all the context and discussion is lost. i wonder if there's a way to simplify that workflow.
# [11:09] <MikeSmith> mkwst: about the 'Content-Security-Policy' pragma directive PR, I will review also and add comments (if any) after I do
# [11:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: if we can, please hold off on pushing that PR til I can make time to review (later tonight or tomorrow)
# [11:10] <MikeSmith> the build script is going to take some time
# [11:10] <annevk> MikeSmith: sure
# [11:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: will push the wattsi fix right not
# [11:10] <MikeSmith> *now
# [11:10] <annevk> mkwst: we could do the rebase at the end?
# [11:10] <mkwst> MikeSmith: No rush. Happy to wait for you.
# [11:11] <MikeSmith> k
# [11:11] <annevk> mkwst: first many commits, then squash and go
# [11:11] <Ms2ger> Did we really add another http-equiv?
# [11:11] <mkwst> annevk: Yeah. That's probably better. It slows things down marginally, as the reviewer can't just land it, but whatever.
# [11:11] <mkwst> Ms2ger: Yes! Aren't you thrilled?! :)
# [11:11] <Ms2ger> I'm sad
# [11:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: there's referrer-policy too, though I guess that's <meta name=...>
# [11:12] <Ms2ger> But I work on browsers, so I'm always sad
# [11:12] <mkwst> Ms2ger: We added it ~4 years ago, if that makes it any better?
# [11:12] <Ms2ger> No
# [11:12] <mkwst> Didn't think so.
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: pull now on master and test and it should work for you again
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> fwiw I also agree with mkwst as far as "the squashing/force-pushing is a bit annoying, though, as all the context and discussion is lost"
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> sometimes you want to preserve the context, sometimes it's not valuable and can just be squashd
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# [11:15] <Ms2ger> Only if you're silly enough to review on github :)
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> heh
# [11:15] <nox> Ms2ger!
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> true that, Ms2ger
# [11:15] <nox> Ms2ger: Would you mind checking what I mentioned earlier, to be sure about what I'm saying?
# [11:16] <Ms2ger> About shadow-banning?
# [11:16] <nox> No, lol.
# [11:16] <nox> Ms2ger: About fragment parsing in template contexts.
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> :) > "But I work on browsers, so I'm always sad"
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> s/browsers/the Web platform/
# [11:18] <Ms2ger> I'd rather not
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> well I didn't mean your statement about what you work on
# [11:18] <nox> MikeSmith: When sad, remember https://twitter.com/nokusu/status/634091274962894848.
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I meant the part about having a reason to weep
# [11:19] * MikeSmith follows https://twitter.com/nokusu/status/634091274962894848 .. hopes it's not a goatse ....
# [11:19] <MikeSmith> hahah
# [11:19] <annevk> thanks MikeSmith, works
# [11:19] <MikeSmith> super
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> nox: triple-favorited
# [11:20] <Ms2ger> *I'd rather not think about template parsing
# [11:22] <nox> Ms2ger: :(
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> damn this build script is way too network-bound
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# [11:25] <Ms2ger> cvrebert, moral of the story: don't expect jsbin to render the html you gave it
# [11:25] <cvrebert> :-/
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm at the office and I need to leave soon to catch the train back to shinjuku, so will start back on build stuff in maybe 2.5 or 3 hours from now
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# [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: you probably also want to look at https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/104
# [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: okay
# [11:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: cvrebert: perhaps it only worked for me because I made some local changes and then ran it again? That sounds very unreliable
# [11:43] <annevk> This reminds me of something JakeA did in jsbin and I couldn't reproduce elsewhere
# [11:43] <annevk> Probably best to ask tests to be moved next time around
# [11:46] <annevk> Krinkle_: seems you didn't actually have access to https://github.com/whatwg/sourcemap so I fixed that
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# [12:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: for some reason ./build.sh hangs for a long time on grep
# [12:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: which is right at the start with the svn stuff
# [12:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: so the reason .wattsi-output doesn't contain multipage/ is because the build.sh script moves that
# [12:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: anyway, I guess I'll give up on this for a bit and work on something else
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# [12:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think that just hangs because that grep actually takes a very long time to run
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# [12:12] <MikeSmith> I think it's grepping through the entire svn log for all the Unicode locale data
# [12:12] <MikeSmith> or something
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# [12:13] <annevk> o_O
# [12:13] <annevk> Hmm, running svn up .cldr-data also takes a long time to run
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> Anyway if you do "git checkout sideshowbarker/rework" and then run build.sh -v
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [12:13] <annevk> I was thinking maybe we should just run that everytime and store the revision someplace
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> I added that -v switch because of this
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> yeah maybe
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# [12:14] <annevk> Might be better to have a switch to not do cldr-data
# [12:14] <annevk> Or opt into it...
# [12:15] <zcorpan> doing the redirect in htaccess appears to be a bit hairy, it's probably better to do it in python (for web-apps-tracker)
# [12:15] <annevk> zcorpan: why?
# [12:15] <annevk> zcorpan: oh the query string one?
# [12:15] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
# [12:15] <zcorpan> plain Redirect doesn't do query strings
# [12:17] <zcorpan> there's RewriteMap that could work but it can't be declared in htaccess
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# [12:17] <annevk> zcorpan: http://serverfault.com/questions/500961/redirectmatch-and-query-string
# [12:18] <annevk> not sure about the merits of mod_rewrite vs Python though
# [12:18] <annevk> the bit in Python we have for this today is quite simple too
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# [12:21] <zcorpan> htaccess might cause slowness for the rest of the site, from what i understand
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# [12:25] <ato> If in a specification I want to say that something can be one of either three things (a set), what’s the normal way to do this?
# [12:27] <MikeSmith> enumerated
# [12:29] <MikeSmith> ato: see the way the HTML spec words it
# [12:29] <MikeSmith> search for "enumerated"
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# [12:31] <ato> MikeSmith: Thanks
# [12:33] <MikeSmith> annevk: So yeah I reckon that the first thing I'll do when I get home is, I'll add a -u switch for optting in to asking it to do an update; e.g., the svn up thing it wants to run, and all that whatever the hell stuff it keeps re-downloading each time
# [12:34] <MikeSmith> and switch the default to being, don't do that
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# [12:34] <MikeSmith> don't do that unless we ask you to
# [12:36] <MikeSmith> that with hell lower our blood pressure and choices focus on the actual build improvements we want to make
# [12:36] <MikeSmith> without the lag and the noise
# [12:38] <MikeSmith> ato: The cases that use that "enumerated" language may not be what you had in mind or need
# [12:38] <ato> MikeSmith: It might be a bit heavy in my case, yes. But I can draw some inspiration from it (-:
# [12:39] <MikeSmith> k
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# [12:41] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: does there exist an Encoding Standard implementation for Rust?
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# [12:46] <nox> hsivonen: Yes, rust-encoding.
# [12:48] * smaug____ wonders whether to attend tpax
# [12:48] <smaug____> tpac
# [12:48] <hsivonen> is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/rust-encoding the canonical repo?
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# [12:49] <nox> hsivonen: AFAIK yes.
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# [12:50] <nox> Why, btw?
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# [12:51] <annevk> ato: you can say "one of A, B, and C"
# [12:51] <annevk> ato: that's what I usually use
# [12:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: that sounds amazing
# [12:52] <annevk> hsivonen: is the best way to get you to reply on GitHub to send you a note on IRC?
# [12:53] <annevk> hsivonen: https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/issues/9 for context
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# [12:57] <zcorpan> smaug____: i plan to attend tpac, fwiw
# [12:57] <annevk> smaug____: it would be fun to hang out
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# [12:58] <annevk> smaug____: which incidentally is the main reason I'm going
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# [12:58] <jgraham> AFAICT it's the only reason I'm going
# [12:58] <smaug____> :)
# [12:58] <smaug____> visiting Japan would be a good reason to go
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# [13:02] <MikeSmith> I don't know if y'all heard yet but it's unlikely I'll be at TPAC this year
# [13:03] <MikeSmith> because my wife and I have a baby on the way
# [13:03] <MikeSmith> due Oct 14
# [13:04] <annevk> So it seems the patch from jungkees didn't do line wrapping Domenic
# [13:04] <annevk> We could really use some pull request bots that check a couple of things
# [13:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: public congrats! :-)
# [13:05] <smaug____> congrats!
# [13:05] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Good news for you, but now I am slightly more wondering why I'm going to Japan :)
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# [13:09] <MikeSmith> heh
# [13:10] <MikeSmith> Thanks all for the congrats
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# [13:11] <Ms2ger> Poor kid ;)
# [13:13] <MikeSmith> with all y'all planning to be there, I'm disappointed that I won't be. But you'll have plenty of good times without me
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# [13:17] <MikeSmith> maybe you can even get gsnedders to attend this year
# [13:17] <MikeSmith> that would be truly awesome
# [13:19] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: congrats!
# [13:21] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Yay! Babies are awesome. Congratulations!
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# [13:35] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: yes, as nox said
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# [13:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I'm planning to be there, bah
# [13:47] <gsnedders> Not quite bought flights yet, though
# [13:47] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: anyhow, congrats!
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# [13:51] <MikeSmith> thanks
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# [13:54] <hsivonen> nox: The converters in Gecko are generally the sort of code you don't want to modify and we should modify them somewhat
# [13:54] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
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# [13:54] <hsivonen> nox: looks like the Rust impl. doesn't pack the tables as space-efficiently in the binary as I would
# [13:55] <hsivonen> (and am doing with my Big5 rewrite for Gecko)
# [13:55] <nox> hsivonen: rust-encoding is quite naive on all fronts, IMO.
# [13:55] <hsivonen> nox: anyway, I'll take a more careful look to see how crazy it would be to propose that we moved Gecko over to Rust-based converters
# [14:01] <nox> hsivonen: Cool.
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# [14:02] * gsnedders has some vague plan to start implementing more crazy SIMD optimizations for rust-encoding
# [14:04] <hsivonen> for example, the Big5 data can be made space-efficient like this: https://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/0d906fb1ab90/src/nu/validator/encoding/Big5Data.java while still keeping decode fast
# [14:04] <hsivonen> (don't look at the other code in that package. e.g. the single-byte stuff is very naive)
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# [14:13] * MikeSmith thanks zcorpan and mkwst as well
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# [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: Python to Java to C++?
# [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: are you upping your code-to-code conversion game?
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# [14:25] <gsnedders> annevk: you forgot about emscriptening the C++ to JS.
# [14:25] <annevk> gsnedders: and then back to assembly (web)
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# [14:26] <annevk> Might need some help from Xzibit here
# [14:35] <roc> hsivonen: moving to Rust-based converters would be great! If anything gets in the way, bring it up in dev-platform
# [14:38] <Ms2ger> Reading the text, does this test pass or fail? http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/css21_dev/single/selectors-001/format/html4/
# [14:39] <annevk> pass
# [14:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: though I see what you mean
# [14:40] <Ms2ger> But the text is white! :)
# [14:42] <gsnedders> fails, definitely fails
# [14:43] <nox> hsivonen: Since you are here,
# [14:43] <nox> hsivonen: do you know how Gecko works when parsing template fragments?
# [14:43] <nox> I see you commented in the past on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314, which I stumbled upon while implementing templates in Servo.
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# [14:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: so the code at https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/blob/master/.pre-process-main.pl#L50 causes the build to (re)download example HTML+JS+CSS files from, e.g., https://whatwg.org/demos/workers/multicore/
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> see the comment in the code there
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> # TODO: maybe move these to the HTML source repo, and upload them to whatwg.org from there?
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> # Or maybe better, redirect from these URLs to new html.spec.whatwg.org URLs
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> so yeah, later, let's do that
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# [14:52] <Domenic> MikeSmith: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/30
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> hey Domenic is awake
# [14:52] <Domenic> It's getting to be a pretty large time sink in the build process
# [14:52] <Domenic> \o/
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> man you are always way ahead of me
# [14:53] <annevk> You know what, we should commit those downloaded resources to whatwg/html/demos/
# [14:53] <annevk> And then ask Hixie to put up redirects
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> "We should move the demos into this repo, and have the build script inline them from source plus copy them to the output directory." yes
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
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# [14:54] <annevk> Hixie wanted to set up some kind of demos.whatwg.org thing but I don't think that's needed necessarily, each specification can take care of their own demos
# [14:54] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, can I ask you for test reviews already? :)
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> well for now I guess I can have a build script pass an option to that perl script to tell it not to download that stuff
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> ok?
# [14:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: not downloading them would create a bogus index infortunately
# [14:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: since the demos are inlined
# [14:56] <MikeSmith> ah OK
# [14:56] <MikeSmith> I see now
# [14:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [14:56] <annevk> but they are static non-changing files afaik
# [14:56] <Domenic> annevk: doesn't committing https://github.com/whatwg/html/commit/a262f1d23cb8990a4735436215a01f0f4892f1a1 directly without the corresponding html-build changes break the multipage version?
# [14:56] <Domenic> annevk: since .multipage-404 doesn't exist anymore?
# [14:56] <MikeSmith> well we can have the build script download them *once* right
# [14:57] <annevk> Domenic: therefore it's on a branch
# [14:57] <annevk> Domenic: just wanted to share progress with MikeSmith
# [14:57] <Domenic> annevk: tiiiiiny little branch indicator, got it
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# [14:57] <annevk> (it's also out-of-date at the moment, since I changed the .htaccess to fix some other things)
# [15:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, changing those lines to also store the files somewhere seems sensible
# [15:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then if you run this again, update flag is not set, and the files are stored, you keep whatever you got last time
# [15:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: still risks some staleness, but only locally since I guess the server will always set the update flag
# [15:01] <Domenic> We should probably just bug Hixie harder to give us the demos and do it all in one step
# [15:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: alternatively, once you downloaded them and stored them somewhere, just check them into the html repo and then change the script to open files there...
# [15:02] <annevk> ah I guess what will fail then is subresources, which are not downloaded
# [15:02] <annevk> so yeah, need to bug Hixie
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# [15:03] <MikeSmith> > "still risks some staleness, but only locally since I guess the server will always set the update flag" yes
# [15:04] <MikeSmith> yeah we need Hixie for the longer-term fix
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# [15:10] <Domenic> Anyone want to help the parse5 maintainer understand the ruby parsing story? https://github.com/inikulin/parse5/commit/c61acf300904a85a12835ae95e13bae08d288225 I don't know it in real detail myself
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# [15:16] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: still trying to do finance bullshit, so no
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# [15:16] <gsnedders> Domenic: tl;dr: Hixie said no so it's not in the WHATWG spec, it's in the W3C spec and everyone implements it.
# [15:18] <nox> gsnedders: I see.
# [15:18] <nox> gsnedders: Why did Hixie say no?
# [15:19] <nox> html5lib-tests follows W3C too.
# [15:19] <gsnedders> nox: html5lib-tests follows what everyone is actually implementing
# [15:19] <Ms2ger> Because the additional complexity isn't necessary
# [15:20] <gsnedders> nox: which is WHATWG plus the Ruby stuff from the W3C spec.
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# [15:21] <gsnedders> Domenic: I've commented, FWIW
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# [15:23] <nox> Ms2ger: But it's already implemented by UAs. Why remove that?
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# [15:23] <gsnedders> nox: it wasn't removed
# [15:23] <gsnedders> nox: it was added to UAs after Hixie said no
# [15:23] <nox> Oh.
# [15:24] <nox> So, who is wrong?
# [15:24] <Ms2ger> Everyone
# [15:24] <gsnedders> The WHATWG spec, because it is a lie.
# [15:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You're confusing "wrong" and "dead"
# [15:24] <nox> Ms2ger: Ah ah.
# [15:24] <nox> gsnedders: Ok.
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# [15:25] <nox> gsnedders: It lies for fragment parsing too, but no one described what Gecko actually does. :(
# [15:25] <gsnedders> nox: is there interop there?
# [15:25] <gsnedders> nox: like, where is it wrong?
# [15:25] <nox> gsnedders: Yes there is.
# [15:25] <gsnedders> nox: do we have tests for where it is wrong? what do the tests expect?
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# [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: From my understanding, for example parsing innerHTML of a template,
# [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: the children should end up in template contents,
# [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: spec doesn't do that.
# [15:26] <gsnedders> nox: oh, so it's only the template case that is wrong?
# [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: Or spec is so confusing I don't see which path it follows for this.
# [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: Not sure. There are other confusing details mentioned in ticket.
# [15:26] <Joseph__Silber> TabAtkins, is it possible in flexbox to have equal-height elements *across multiple lines*? So that if something in one row expands, all items in all other rows would expand as well.
# [15:26] <nox> gsnedders: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27314#c23
# [15:27] <nox> gsnedders: I can imagine it making weird things for foreign content fragments too.
# [15:27] <nox> (Since current node is <html>, not a foreign node.)
# [15:27] <gsnedders> Joseph__Silber: no, AIUI
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# [15:27] <gsnedders> Joseph__Silber: (I could be wrong)
# [15:28] <Joseph__Silber> Thought so too
# [15:28] <gsnedders> nox: is the foreign content case not handled by the tree construction dispatcher
# [15:28] <Joseph__Silber> Wanted to hear from the man himself :)
# [15:28] <nox> gsnedders: Mmh, no but I think it makes use of the adjusted current node.
# [15:29] <gsnedders> nox: it seems to be given it uses the adjusted current node, which is context if we're fragment case and the stack of open elements contains only html
# [15:29] <gsnedders> nox: so I think the foreign content case is right per spec?
# [15:29] <nox> gsnedders: I tried to unconditionally use it for step 1 of https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#appropriate-place-for-inserting-a-node but it made other unrelated tests fail.
# [15:30] <gsnedders> hmm, will look into this later
# [15:30] <nox> gsnedders: Thanks.
# [15:30] <nox> gsnedders: Firefox and WebKit both do the correct thing btw.
# [15:37] <gsnedders> FWIW, if anyone wants to look over https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5781
# [15:37] <gsnedders> please feel free to do so
# [15:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: I would be more inclinded to do so if you would address your own comments
# [15:42] <gsnedders> pff
# [15:42] <gsnedders> some of them I'd like opinions on, FWIW
# [15:44] <jgraham> If the test doesn't test what the spec says but what chrome would like it to say then I agree we shouldn't take those tests
# [15:44] <JakeA> TabAtkins: there's a proposal for a property to give an element a fixed aspect ratio right? Which spec is it in?
# [15:45] <TabAtkins> None. There's a broken proposal for this on my blog, but it's no good for subtle reasons.
# [15:45] <TabAtkins> Joseph__Silber: No, but Grid can do that.
# [15:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: but like, dropping SVG fonts doesn't mean you don't need to normalise SVG font attributes, right?
# [15:46] <Joseph__Silber> Yeah I know. Just Flexbox currently has way broader support.
# [15:46] <Joseph__Silber> Thanks.
# [15:47] <Joseph__Silber> JakeA, guess you're stuck with absolute positioning in a padded container...
# [15:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: Right
# [15:47] <jgraham> That doesn't make sense unless everyone has agreed on it
# [15:48] <JakeA> Joseph__Silber: yeah, that's what I'm using. Just seeing if there's something less hacky on the way
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# [15:52] <Domenic> gsnedders: thanks! The parse5 guy is great and so I am happy when we can help him (like you also did by commenting on the test update issue)
# [15:53] * Domenic watches html5lib-tests on GitHub
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# [15:56] <gsnedders> Domenic: feel free to ping me on anything you see about html5lib-tests, FWIW
# [15:56] <gsnedders> Domenic: regardless of whether or not it's really justified :)
# [15:56] <Domenic> :)
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# [16:11] <wanderview> mkwst: I guess I could just try to make a spec-directory page instead of whining about it till someone makes it for me
# [16:13] <mkwst> wanderview: Yeah. Each WG should have one anyway.
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# [16:14] <wanderview> mkwst: I really want a master list... including a section for speculative stuff like navigator-connect, etc
# [16:15] <wanderview> I have a hard time understanding the WG structure, to be honest
# [16:15] <mkwst> Sure. It would be lovely to see what's being worked on before it's done and too late to argue about it.
# [16:15] <mkwst> That's because there are only two that matter, and a bazillion others. ;P
# [16:15] <wanderview> mkwst: what are the two that matter?
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# [16:16] <wanderview> anyway, sorry to hijack your twitter poll
# [16:16] <mkwst> WebApps and WebAppSec.
# [16:16] <TabAtkins> Oooh burn
# [16:17] <TabAtkins> (The correct two are, of course, CSSWG and Houdini.)
# [16:17] <mkwst> Ok, ok. Maybe marginally more than two.
# [16:18] <wanderview> is whatwg considered a WG?
# [16:18] <TabAtkins> It's right there in the name.
# [16:18] <mkwst> (I forgot about CSS, which says something about my priorities. :) )
# [16:18] <jgraham> This is like the Spanish inquisition
# [16:18] <Domenic> It is not a W3C working group, however.
# [16:18] <gsnedders> what about the WHATTF?
# [16:19] <TabAtkins> That's not a WG, obvs.
# [16:19] <gsnedders> I thought Houdini was a TF?
# [16:20] <wanderview> I hope there is a web bureaucracy for newbies session at TPAC
# [16:20] <jgraham> Also, Browser Tools & Testing is irrelevant to you, but is at least standardising a technology that all* browsers are implementing (*well except Apple ofc)
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# [16:21] <mkwst> Point is, lots of crazy in WGs.
# [16:22] <wanderview> JakeA: do we know what day service workers is happening at tpac yet?
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# [16:22] <jgraham> You can probably ignore the Multimodal Interaction WG though :)
# [16:22] <JakeA> wanderview: Monday or Tuesday
# [16:23] <wanderview> JakeA: excellent, thanks
# [16:23] * wanderview will be gone after Thursday noon.
# [16:24] <JakeA> yeah, took that into account
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# [16:24] <wanderview> thanks... saves me trouble at home for missing halloween
# [16:24] <wanderview> although I may not be awake for it
# [16:26] <jgraham> I find it strange every year that haloween is such a big deal in the US
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# [16:26] <wanderview> JakeA: I wonder when we should start talking about agenda... would be nice to maybe dig into fall-through or foreign-fetch more
# [16:26] <wanderview> jgraham: I think its a bigger deal when your kids are still young...
# [16:28] <jgraham> Yeah, makes sense. It's just unusual for there to be a thing that happens in both the US and UK but with totally different levels of importance in the two locations.
# [16:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: I find it strange every year that someone trying to blow up Parliament in 1605 is such a big deal in the UK.
# [16:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not such a big deal that I would change my travel plans to make sure I was back to celebrate it!
# [16:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also as a Scottish person, you are supposed to be all in favour of blowing up parliment
# [16:29] <JakeA> wanderview: agreed. I'd also like to figure out a replacement for fetchEvent.client
# [16:30] <wanderview> JakeA: I thought we agreed on that one... but maybe it was just an agreement for "something else"
# [16:31] <JakeA> wanderview: I think we agreed that sync was bad for a full client, but didn't decide if it should be clientID, or an async getter
# [16:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: What? How do you know I'm part of the 45?
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# [16:33] <wanderview> jgraham: what happens for halloween in the UK?
# [16:33] <Domenic> I am going to be in Japan during TPAC time for vacation but not attending TPAC.
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# [16:34] <gsnedders> wanderview: relatively little; there's a small amount of "trick or treating" compared with the US, AIUI, and that's about it
# [16:34] <gsnedders> wanderview: typically going around known neighbours nearby
# [16:34] <jgraham> wanderview: Pretyt much nothing
# [16:34] <gsnedders> (tbf, maybe my viewpoint is bias by Scotland here?)
# [16:34] <jgraham> But enough for it to be a thing
# [16:35] <gsnedders> According to Wikipedia, guising is in origin Irish/Scottish
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# [16:35] <jgraham> I mean you can buy stuff for it and some people make lanterns and so on, but I can't imagine it ever being a big deal to miss it
# [16:35] <TabAtkins> Domenic: That's interesting timing.
# [16:35] <gsnedders> so maybe I don't know how little goes on in England and Wales?
# [16:36] <wanderview> jgraham: I wouldn't care about it except my daughter enjoys trick-or-treating and it will be the first year my son dresses up
# [16:36] <wanderview> mostly its just kids trick-or-treating in nearby neighbhorhoods
# [16:36] <wanderview> my one neighbor goes all out with decorations, lights, and music... but most people don't do much
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# [16:37] <gsnedders> also traditionally here it's not so much trick *or* treating
# [16:37] <jgraham> I usually hear at least one or two people complaining about TPAC/Halloween, so it's not just you
# [16:37] <gsnedders> you're only meant to get the treat if you do the trick
# [16:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Huh?
# [16:37] <wanderview> gsnedders: really?
# [16:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: at least in my experience in Scotland, that's still relatively true
# [16:37] <wanderview> I always thought it was a thread... give me a treat or I will egg your house
# [16:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also are you sure that isn't just Glasgow
# [16:37] <wanderview> ^thread^threat
# [16:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: not just Glasgow
# [16:37] <jgraham> Like "I set your car on fire. Now give me sweets if you don't want tyour house to burn"
# [16:38] <wanderview> I'll try that approach this year... "no candy unless you do a trick for me... do a hand stand!"
# [16:38] <gsnedders> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick-or-treating#Guising still seems relatively true in my experience
# [16:39] <gsnedders> there's more sweets-for-nothing than there were when I was a child, AFAICT, though
# [16:39] <gsnedders> and that's not exactly that long of a period
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# [17:03] <JakeA> zcorpan: thanks for the corrections btw. Appreciated
# [17:03] <zcorpan> JakeA: np. i liked the svg :-)
# [17:04] <smaug____> mounir: dglazkov or other blink folks, who maintains DeviceOrientation stuff in blink?
# [17:04] <zcorpan> still need better svg authoring tools huh
# [17:04] <mounir> smaug____: timvolodine@chromium.org
# [17:04] <smaug____> thanks
# [17:04] <mounir> smaug____: np :)
# [17:04] <JakeA> I used Illustrator for the first time and I won't be using it again. Back to Inkscape.
# [17:04] <smaug____> mounir: is he ever on IRC?
# [17:05] <JakeA> Feels like there's an open goal for a good SVG editor though. Inkscape is pretty bad but it's the only one that's an SVG editor, rather than just exports-to-svg
# [17:05] <mounir> smaug____: I wish IRC was used as much at Google than at Mozilla ;)
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# [17:11] <annevk> So along with Fetch integration / Ruby / security stuff?, it seems that Shadow DOM integration is also high priority for HTML
# [17:12] <annevk> If anyone has anything else that's particularly important I'd love to know
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# [17:21] <Domenic> annevk: I'd say getting the ruby parsing changes integrated
# [17:21] <annevk> Domenic: yeah that's on the list
# [17:21] <nox> Fixing template fragments. :P
# [17:22] <annevk> Domenic: should we fix the parser and not worry about conformance?
# [17:23] <Domenic> annevk: hmm maybe, that might merit further discussion. I don't have strong conformance opinions in general... maybe MikeSmith can help given his validator experience.
# [17:23] <annevk> I've been slowly figuring out what's needed for Fetch since it hurts the service worker work
# [17:23] <annevk> Ironically appcache makes Fetch integration harder...
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# [17:24] <annevk> nox: hmm yeah
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# [17:43] <nox> annevk: Cool.
# [17:44] <nox> annevk: I suspect 26783 isn't unrelated.
# [17:44] <nox> (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26783)
# [17:45] <nox> They reach the same conclusion of getting rid of "adjusted current node".
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# [17:48] <wanderview> mkwst: annevk: btw, from your conversation yesterday... gecko does implement .formData() on Request
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# [17:48] <mkwst> wanderview: Yeah, no idea why Chrome doesn't.
# [17:49] <wanderview> mkwst: I assume it didn't make the cut for MVP
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# [17:51] <Krinkle> Hm.. is requestIdleCallback supposed to be guaranteed? E.g. if the user navigates away or refreshes, will it run before unload? setTimeout does not, for example.
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# [17:52] <Krinkle> but microtasks in general I imagine would get run like setImmediate and already scheduled event handlers
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# [17:53] <Krinkle> igrigorik: ^
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# [17:58] <ccardona-work> Good morning/afternoon/evening WHATWG crew o/
# [17:59] <nox> Why should "<a><tr>" in a tbody fragment be parsed as "<a></a><tr></tr>"?
# [18:00] <Krinkle> <a> is not a valid child of <tbody>
# [18:00] <Krinkle> (I think(
# [18:00] <nox> Krinkle: Hence my question. :)
# [18:00] <nox> It's in html5lib-tests.
# [18:01] <Krinkle> well, it can't remove the element. It has to go somewhere. Depending on how widely scoped the parse instruction is, it'll hoist it away as far as possible
# [18:01] <Krinkle> parsing the entire table will make it go before <table> I think
# [18:01] <Krinkle> unless there is an exception for <a> specifically.
# [18:01] <nox> https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/blob/master/tree-construction/tests_innerHTML_1.dat#L483-L491
# [18:01] <jgraham> nox: <table><tbody><a><tr> -> <a></a><table><tbody><tr>
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# [18:02] <nox> jgraham: I said in a fragment.
# [18:02] <jgraham> Oh
# [18:02] <nox> jgraham: tbody.innerHtml = '<a><tr>'
# [18:02] <Krinkle> nox: what would you expect instead? <a><tr></tr></a>?
# [18:02] <ccardona-work> This is w/out question the coolest room on freenode and one of the most valuable places that I know of online. Nice work everyone. 👍🏼
# [18:03] <nox> Krinkle: No idea.
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# [18:03] <jgraham> Well it somewhat falls out of the other behaviour
# [18:03] <Krinkle> nox: That test data is abstracted, I assume those pipes in the bottom portion refer to entire elements as siblings?
# [18:03] <nox> Krinkle: Yes.
# [18:03] <nox> Krinkle: It indents children.
# [18:03] <Krinkle> Right
# [18:03] <jgraham> <tr> closes <a>, but innerHTML obviously can't foster parent
# [18:04] <Krinkle> Ah, that's it!
# [18:04] <nox> Ok.
# [18:05] <jgraham> I mean, if you start asking "why" about the html parser you'll quickly go mad
# [18:05] <nox> jgraham: Trying to fix the spec wrt template fragments.
# [18:05] <nox> So, lots of "why".
# [18:06] <jgraham> Just picking a behaviour that makes sense seems sufficient, not trying to understand all teh historial legacy
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# [18:08] <nox> I wonder if I should just add a rule in "in template".
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# [18:08] <nox> Ah no, that wouldn't work.
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# [18:10] <nox> I'll just wait for someone to fix it I guess. :P
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# [18:28] <annevk> nox: ooh, you're going to supply a fix? Excellent
# [18:28] <nox> annevk: Tried. Kinda failed. No idea where to fix this.
# [18:29] <annevk> wanderview: ta
# [18:29] <annevk> nox: ah okay, not sure what the priority is but I do plan on getting to the parser in due course
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# [18:47] <nox> annevk: Thanks.
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# [19:00] <annevk> heycam|away: roc: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/96
# [19:01] <annevk> heycam|away: roc: seems reasonable...
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# [19:20] <annevk> nox: so I think the good news is that I think you did find a bug, the bad news is that I'm not sure how to fix it either
# [19:20] <nox> annevk: Heh.
# [19:21] <nox> annevk: Hence why I asked about whatever Gecko does, as bzbarsky implies it does something better.
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# [19:22] <annevk> nox: however, how does this work in the non-fragment case?
# [19:22] <nox> annevk: What do you mean?
# [19:23] <nox> annevk: In the non-fragment case, the template element is the current element, so the appropriate place for insertion is properly computed.
# [19:23] <nox> And in the foster parenting case, it's in the stack of open elements anyway.
# [19:23] <annevk> Actually, why does “If the adjusted insertion location is inside a template element, let it instead be inside the template element's template contents, after its last child (if any).” not work?
# [19:24] <nox> Because the template isn't in the stack of open elements, it's the context element.
# [19:24] <annevk> That seems to do the trick both for fragment and non-fragment
# [19:24] <nox> And that's the foster parenting case.
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# [19:24] <nox> Oh right, adjusted insertion location.
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# [19:25] <annevk> nox: well, the fragment parser does put <template> on the stack I think
# [19:25] <annevk> nox: see "Create a start tag token whose name is the local name of context and whose attributes are the attributes of context."
# [19:25] <nox> annevk: "Let this start tag token be the start tag token of the context node, e.g. for the purposes of determining if it is an HTML integration point."
# [19:25] <nox> Never it is put on the stack.
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# [19:26] <nox> The only element on the stack is root. "Let root be a new html element with no attributes."
# [19:26] <nox> annevk: Step 1 of "appropriate place for inserting a node" sets target to current node. Current node is root.
# [19:26] <annevk> Yeah okay
# [19:26] <annevk> Hmm
# [19:27] <nox> annevk: And even in the case of foster parenting,
# [19:27] <nox> there is no template on the stack.
# [19:27] <nox> Oh sorry, step 3.
# [19:28] <nox> Wait no, that doesn't get run either, because "If there is no last table, then let adjusted insertion location be inside the first element in the stack of open elements (the html element), after its last child (if any), and abort these substeps. (fragment case)"
# [19:28] <nox> In all cases, the element ends up in the html element, not the template contents.
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# [19:30] <annevk> So I was thinking, even if they end up in the template contents, the child nodes of root get returned in the end...
# [19:31] <annevk> But https://w3c.github.io/DOM-Parsing/#widl-Element-innerHTML doesn't deal with this either
# [19:35] <annevk> Domenic: don't merge that just yet
# [19:35] <nox> annevk: I think that's the point.
# [19:35] <nox> annevk: Parsers don't put things in templates.
# [19:36] <nox> annevk: That's what Safari and Firefox do.
# [19:38] <annevk> nox: have you tested what kind of mutation observer records they give?
# [19:38] <annevk> nox: they would be kind of inconsistent I guess if they don't do a clean replace
# [19:39] <annevk> nox: otherwise the innerHTML setter taking the returned nodes and then if it's invoked on a <template> using that to replace <template>.content might make more sense
# [19:40] <annevk> nox: not sure what Hixie's thoughts are
# [19:40] <nox> annevk: Mmh, makes sense indeed.
# [19:40] <nox> annevk: Or not.
# [19:40] <nox> Nested templates would end up with the wrong template contents owner document, I think.
# [19:42] <annevk> Hmm where would that other document come from?
# [19:43] <nox> annevk: Mmh right, never mind.
# [19:43] <nox> annevk: Your idea means running adopting the whole tree again from another document though, maybe that's a bit too much post-processing?
# [19:46] <annevk> nox: adopting is mostly changing a pointer
# [19:46] <annevk> nox: and not doing this means weird mutations
# [19:47] <nox> annevk: Yeah I know, but that's still traversing a tree once more. :P
# [19:47] <annevk> nox: do you actually need to run it though?
# [19:48] <annevk> nox: could have fast paths for a ton of this stuff
# [19:48] <annevk> nox: mutation observers is important because it's observable from JavaScript
# [19:48] <nox> annevk: The nested templates in the fake document will end up in the fake document's appropriate template contents owner document.
# [19:48] <nox> The nested templates' template contents* sorry.
# [19:49] <nox> So yes, they need to be re-adopted, AFAICT.
# [19:49] <nox> annevk: I guess mutation observers see nothing about the template contents through innerHTML on a template, will check tonight at home.
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# [19:50] <annevk> nox: you could even have innerHTML reset .content
# [19:51] <annevk> nox: rather than replace all...
# [19:51] <nox> annevk: What do you mean?
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# [19:51] <annevk> nox: you take the return value of the HTML fragment parsing algorithm, run adopt, and stick it on .content
# [19:53] <nox> Not sure, it would be surprising if you had a hold on .content before.
# [19:53] <annevk> Yeah, replace all is better
# [19:53] <nox> annevk: And it makes even weirder mutations, IMO.
# [19:53] <annevk> well you wouldn't see any...
# [19:53] <nox> Yeah, no one would notice the change, given there is nothing related to templates in mutation observers.
# [19:54] <nox> Whereas if someone is observing the template contents, replace all would do the trick.
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# [20:38] <Domenic> annevk OK, good thing I got stuck in meetings for an hour :)
# [20:38] <Domenic> IDL return types are basically non normative docs anyway though...
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# [20:55] <poosanth> Anyone know any good articles for folks starting out with trying to wrap their head around wcag 2
# [20:59] <wanderview> jsbell: are you ok with this change to the Cache wpt tests? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5748
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# [21:16] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "it might take a few days" was not very nice of you :)
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# [21:23] <jsbell> wanderview: looking...
# [21:23] <wanderview> jsbell: basically new Request() is now spec'd to throw if userpass are in the url
# [21:24] <wanderview> so it blows up trying to setup the test corpus before running any tests
# [21:25] <jsbell> wanderview: yeah, looks good, just seeing what we did in our copy... (or maybe we haven't implemented that yet)
# [21:25] <wanderview> jsbell: ideally we would test for the Request constructor in the fetch wpt tests once we get them upstreamed
# [21:25] <wanderview> for the credentials in the constructor
# [21:27] <jsbell> Ah, we haven't implemented that change yet, which is why our tests still have those cases. :P
# [21:27] <jsbell> crbug.com/474439
# [21:28] <jsbell> wanderview: lgtm'd
# [21:29] <wanderview> thanks!
# [21:33] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: "few" is a variable term 😀
# [21:34] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I’ve heard guesstimates around 1500
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# [21:35] <TabAtkins> Seems plausible
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# [21:38] <jsbell> wanderview: note the comment #2 in that issue though... a SW could intercept a fetch made with credentials in the URL and put() (etc) the Request into a cache
# [21:39] <wanderview> jsbell: hmm... I thought FetchEvent was spec'd to run Request constructor
# [21:41] <jsbell> wanderview: doesn't seem to be... and it'd be weird if intercepts couldn't handle that...
# [21:41] <wanderview> jsbell: yea, you are correct
# [21:48] <wanderview> jsbell: should we reopen this review then?
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# [21:50] <jsbell> wanderview: IMHO a separate one would be fine. I'd need to be in a different file anyway
# [21:50] <wanderview> k, thanks again
# [22:00] <wanderview> jsbell: thanks for pointing that out... we have a bug where we run Request::Constructor() when creating FetchEvent...
# [22:00] * wanderview adds it to the list...
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# [22:03] <wanderview> annevk: are there any other restrictions in Request::Constructor() besides url userpass that you would expect html and other specs to bypass?
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# [22:04] <wanderview> annevk: I guess it would be nice to have a "create a Request" function that other specs go through that has expected assertions... like only simple methods ever passed for no-cors, etc
# [22:05] <nox> annevk: WebKit patches innerHTML directly.
# [22:05] <nox> annevk: Ah no wait, that's just calling the serializer.
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# [22:06] <nox> annevk: When serialising, the spec says "If the node is a template element, then let the node instead be the template element's template contents (a DocumentFragment node).", so I would expect parsing to be the same way too.
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