/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 05 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  46. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> is IndexedDB still not usable in practice in Safari?
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  48. # [02:31] * MikeSmith is wondering what the limitations actualy are
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  75. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> I owe hober some Internet Points for muffing up his change to the HTML source (now fixed but broke the build in the interim)
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  89. # [06:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: if you know you are omitting </td>, why the need for the space?
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  92. # [06:25] * annevk MikeSmith's revised build system
  93. # [06:25] <annevk> tries out /\
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  97. # [06:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, there is indeed a trailing space in the source. There was whitespace there originally, and the serializer collapses WS to a single space.
  98. # [06:37] <TabAtkins> I do drop leading/trailing WS-only anonymous blocks, I suppose I could further drop leading/trailing WS text nodes.
  99. # [06:37] <annevk> Wait there's trailing space in the source?
  100. # [06:37] <annevk> That sounds unlikely, since my editor removes that
  101. # [06:37] <annevk> There's no trailing space in the source
  102. # [06:41] <TabAtkins> No, trailing WS. Like, a newline.
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  104. # [06:43] <TabAtkins> Precisely why there's no WS on the <a> lines, just the <code> lines, I'm not sure without experimenting.
  105. # [06:43] <annevk> Oh, there is a newline, sure
  106. # [06:43] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I can clean it up a little bit more if you want.
  107. # [06:43] <annevk> I guess I'm not too bothered by that one
  108. # [06:44] <annevk> The UI Events change was more problematic, but apparently that's a Shepherd thing again
  109. # [06:44] <annevk> I think I might actually be more often hurt by Shepherd than anything else
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  111. # [06:44] <TabAtkins> Distributed systems, man.
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  115. # [06:51] <annevk> Yeah, but there should be some way that newly added specifications maybe get staged or some such or don't get to squat on somebody else
  116. # [06:51] <annevk> TabAtkins: so is UI Events updated in Shepherd yet?
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  119. # [06:56] <TabAtkins> annevk: Looks like it!
  120. # [06:56] <annevk> Would be nice if there was some way to find out about those things
  121. # [06:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think I'm handling the IDL <dfn>-or-<a> wrong right now.
  122. # [06:58] <TabAtkins> For starters, it assumes that people are using "partial" properly, which seems to be mostly wrong.
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  124. # [07:04] <TabAtkins> Unfortunate consequence of scaling up from "CSSWG, and other things I more-or-less have control over" to "shit, specs all over the place now".
  125. # [07:05] <TabAtkins> This should be handleable, I just need to tweak to a little more defensive without wrecking usability.
  126. # [07:09] <annevk> MikeSmith: can you make https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm redirect to https://w3c.github.io/uievents/?
  127. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> yup
  128. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> Will do when I get back home
  129. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> out at lunch atm
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  161. # [09:43] <hsivonen> annevk: Gecko's old converters in general. they are hard to read
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  165. # [09:51] <annevk> hsivonen: ah yes, I did study those
  166. # [09:51] <annevk> hsivonen: and yes, they are not great
  167. # [09:51] <annevk> hsivonen: Rebel Opera had really great converter code
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  172. # [09:54] <roc> "Rebel Opera"?
  173. # [09:55] <annevk> roc: Opera had this great marketing campaign about being the rebel browser
  174. # [09:56] <annevk> roc: I sorta feel image stopped being true once they adopted Chromium
  175. # [09:56] <annevk> that image*
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  205. # [13:08] <annevk> I just read through the ruby use cases document and now I'm even more confused how we ended up in this situation
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  210. # [13:35] <gsnedders> nox: ignore the serilaizer tests
  211. # [13:36] <gsnedders> nox: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/issues/58
  212. # [13:45] <nox> gsnedders: Ok.
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  215. # [14:42] <annevk> Domenic: thanks for merging all that in
  216. # [14:46] <annevk> Domenic: I know get "rm: illegal option -- -"
  217. # [14:46] <annevk> s/know/now/
  218. # [14:46] <annevk> Domenic: spelling out rm arguments might not actually be a thing?
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  234. # [16:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: thanks so much for this fast building stuff
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  251. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: glad we got it
  252. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> makes it much more pleasant to test changes
  253. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> I just set up a new macbook and build.sh --no-updates completes in 8 seconds on this machine (vs 14 seconds on my older macbook)
  254. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> but now even more than before I wish we used 80-character lines for the source
  255. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> because then I could actually have it in a side-by-side arrangement, two windows
  256. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> 80 columns each (15-inch screen
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  261. # [18:18] <annevk> So far I can only find evidence in Gecko that "new ruby" is implemented
  262. # [18:18] <annevk> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/html.css#791
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  264. # [18:18] <annevk> From https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/css/html.css#L1133 it seems WebKit only implemented HTML parser changes
  265. # [18:19] <annevk> Reminds me a bit of the <section>/<h1> fiasco
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  291. # [19:39] <annevk> esprehn: well, I guess the question is whether they are "known" or simply parsed
  292. # [19:39] <annevk> esprehn: e.g., <isindex> was always HTMLUnknownElement too, although as I understand it Chrome dropped support for that element entirely
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  294. # [19:52] <annevk> 3 more commits and whatwg/html is over 9000
  295. # [19:52] <annevk> OVER 9000
  296. # [19:54] <wanderview> annevk: that was fast
  297. # [19:55] <annevk> wanderview: I was just added emphasis
  298. # [19:55] <annevk> adding*, geez
  299. # [19:56] <wanderview> how much of that was just dealing with import logistics?
  300. # [19:57] <annevk> wanderview: there's prolly a dozen or so commits related to moving to GitHub
  301. # [19:58] <annevk> wanderview: if you view the commit history online you need to go to page 4 though before you see pre-GitHub history
  302. # [20:01] <wanderview> annevk: oh... I didn't realize it included pre-github history
  303. # [20:01] <annevk> wanderview: aah
  304. # [20:01] <annevk> wanderview: this is every commit since the initial SVN commit
  305. # [20:02] <wanderview> that seems more reasonable to me
  306. # [20:02] <wanderview> I thoguht you were saying you guys made 9000 commits in a couple weeks
  307. # [20:02] <annevk> hah
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  309. # [20:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: Is there a guide for writing a Web Platform Test instead of a Mochitest such that it doesn't need to land upstream before it lands in m-c?
  310. # [20:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: or in general a guide for writing Web Platform Tests for people who know how to write Mochitests?
  311. # [20:06] <annevk> hsivonen: afaik you just get it reviewed, commit it, and "magic" takes over
  312. # [20:06] <wanderview> hsivonen: if you commit in mozilla-central/tests/web-platform/tests then it will get upstreamed automatically
  313. # [20:07] <hsivonen> annevk, wanderview: thanks
  314. # [20:07] <hsivonen> so is there a guide for actually writing tests?
  315. # [20:07] <wanderview> just a sec
  316. # [20:07] <annevk> hsivonen: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
  317. # [20:07] * wanderview is too slow
  318. # [20:07] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  319. # [20:08] <annevk> wanderview: did you drink your coffee yet? :-P
  320. # [20:08] <wanderview> annevk: yes... but its saturday and it was my morning with the kids
  321. # [20:08] <hsivonen> seems like it's not written as a guide for people who are used to mochitests, but OK
  322. # [20:09] <wanderview> hsivonen: yea, not really written from mochitest perspective
  323. # [20:09] <wanderview> hsivonen: best I can suggest is to look at an existing test and adapt it
  324. # [20:13] <wanderview> hsivonen: I guess there are some specifics to mozilla-central... for example, after you add your test you need to run add --manifest-update to the ./mach web-platform-tests command to get the test included in the list
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  326. # [20:19] <hsivonen> wanderview: thanks. --manifest-update seems like an important thing that's not part of the general docs
  327. # [20:19] <wanderview> its mach specific
  328. # [20:19] <wanderview> ./mach help web-platform-tests I guess
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  330. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah I do no think we yet have any specific docs written for an audience of people already familiar with writing mochitests. It would be nice to have some but in general the docs are targeted toward a baseline where we don't assume the contributer is yet familiar with anything (e.g., not reftests either)
  331. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> contributions (however small) to those docs are very welcome and can also earn you chocolate from jgraham
  332. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> a docs patch for --manifest-update would be nice to have
  333. # [20:26] <hsivonen> oh, nice. someone has already written a Web Platform Test for the gbk encoder
  334. # [20:26] <hsivonen> I guess I'll adapt that
  335. # [20:26] <hsivonen> it's less complex than whan I had in mind, too
  336. # [20:32] * MikeSmith wonders who wrote that one
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  341. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: git blame says the somebody who wrote that test is actually annevk
  342. # [20:50] <wanderview> that guy again
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  348. # [21:28] <esprehn> annevk: if we have any behavior attached is shouldn't be an unknown element
  349. # [21:32] <esprehn> annevk: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/blink/+/master/Source/core/html/HTMLTagNames.in#109
  350. # [21:33] <esprehn> the person who added those to the file just didn't read the spec which says HTMLElement
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  352. # [21:47] <annevk> esprehn: do you have any behavior attached though?
  353. # [21:48] <annevk> esprehn: it seems that Chromium, like WebKit, just implemented changes to the parser
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  356. # [21:49] <esprehn> annevk: ah yes, it seems we don't implement the behavior
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  359. # [22:22] <MikeSmith> I had thought Koji Ishii had been working on implementing rb+rtc support. I guess I was wrong.
  360. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> the fact that nobody has actually implemented any of it for this long seems to point to it not actually being so necessary or useful, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary
  361. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> or at least, nobody cares about it enough to contribute code, or to pay somebody to implement it
  362. # [22:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm wishing more and more that I shouldn't have just given up in that thread on dev-platform in March or whenever this was
  363. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> the Intent to Implement thread for rb+rtc
  364. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> anyway, not too late
  365. # [22:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think he (or someone else) did for Gecko
  366. # [22:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: but no other browser seems to have anything beyond parser changes...
  367. # [22:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, and given that, seems like the Gecko implementation may have been premature
  368. # [22:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
  369. # [22:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's quite the clusterfuck
  370. # [22:33] <MikeSmith> yeah :(
  371. # [22:34] <MikeSmith> IMHO in this particular case, if Apple hasn't implemented it and are not treating it as priority, then it's not actually a priority for any big publishers, etc., in Japan
  372. # [22:35] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/112 is pretty cool
  373. # [22:35] * MikeSmith looks
  374. # [22:35] <annevk> not sure we want to merge as-is, but saving over 80% in bandwidth seems huge
  375. # [22:35] <MikeSmith> oh wow yeah
  376. # [22:36] <MikeSmith> nice
  377. # [22:36] <MikeSmith> this stuff is kind of a black art
  378. # [22:37] <MikeSmith> glad somebody understands it
  379. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> but fwiw I think it's somewhat easier with nginx
  380. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw has there been some consideration about moving away from Apache to nginx
  381. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> Apache seems like kind of a sunk cost at this point
  382. # [22:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: I doubt nginx is RESTful though
  383. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> not sure in what way you mean
  384. # [22:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: trollish
  385. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> ah
  386. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> hahaha
  387. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> yeah, nginx certainly lacks one important personality
  388. # [22:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think if we found someone to maintain the servers we could maybe move
  389. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ok
  390. # [22:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: but letting DreamHost manage all that is also somewhat convenient
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  392. # [22:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: hmm, gotta go, nn
  393. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> well I'm not personally volunteering
  394. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> hai
  395. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> nn
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  416. # [23:03] * Quits: mven (~textual@cpe-173-174-112-125.austin.res.rr.com) (Excess Flood)
  417. # [23:04] * Quits: capella-s3 (~yaaic@66-87-124-149.pools.spcsdns.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  418. # [23:06] * Joins: capella-s3 (~yaaic@66.87.124.149)
  419. # [23:08] * Quits: capella-s3 (~yaaic@66.87.124.149) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  420. # [23:34] * Quits: tunacan (~tunacan@cm-84.211.93.141.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving...)
  421. # [23:42] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.92.158)
  422. # [23:52] * Joins: stakagi (~stakagi@218.33.231.248.eo.eaccess.ne.jp)
  423. # [23:54] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@218.33.231.248.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  424. # Session Close: Sun Sep 06 00:00:00 2015

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