/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 11 00:00:01 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: the CSS WG should put a clear disclaimer on those other specs
  10. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> What other specs?
  11. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> Warning: This spec was NOT written by Tab Atkins
  12. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> I mean
  13. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> I'm only half-joking
  14. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> because seriously if I go to look at a CSS WG spec and don't see that you have been one of the people working on it, I am not always super-confident about the rigor/precision/etc of what I may find inside
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  29. # [01:24] <gsnedders> y'know, having booked tickets and hotels for TPAC, I probably ought, like, join a W3C WG.
  30. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> <3
  31. # [01:24] <gsnedders> Given I'm currently on, um, none.
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  33. # [01:26] <tantek> gsnedders, aren't you a member of the WHATWG CG?
  34. # [01:26] <tantek> perhaps find an IG or two to join as well.
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  38. # [01:30] <Domenic> Yay the canvas PR is here. I love new features.
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  41. # [01:31] <gsnedders> tantek: I should rejoin the CSS WG too, given I'm probably gonna start kicking around there again too
  42. # [01:31] <gsnedders> tantek: given the whole habit of giving ex-members IE status
  43. # [01:32] <tantek> doesn't hurt to ask the chairs
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  47. # [01:34] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: can you prod someone so my invited expert application gets accepted? AFAICT nobody gets notified given I already had one on file from when I was an invited expert before?
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  50. # [01:42] <ccardona-work> Where is the TPAC this year?
  51. # [01:43] <ccardona-work> Japan?
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  54. # [01:47] <gsnedders> ccardona-work: yeah, in Sapporo
  55. # [01:47] <ccardona-work> that sounds exciting.
  56. # [01:48] <ccardona-work> i realize now how fortunate I was that it happened in San Jose a few years back and I was able to go.
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  62. # [02:02] <jamesr___> sapporo sounds way more interesting than san jose to me
  63. # [02:02] <gsnedders> To be fair, most places sound more interesting than San Jose
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  66. # [02:14] <ccardona-work> i didn’t say that it San Jose was more interesting. I said that i was fortunate that at the time when I was studying web development in santa cruz the TPAC happened to be in San Jose which allowed Google to pay for me to go.
  67. # [02:15] <ccardona-work> i was able to meet a bunch of the WHATWG crew and i wouldn’t have been able to do that if it would have been in another country.
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  69. # [02:20] <gsnedders> I like how the WHATWG people are always the "crew"
  70. # [02:20] <gsnedders> Is this some really common Americanism?
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  75. # [02:40] <tantek> yes
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  78. # [02:49] <wanderview> I think I heard the kids "squad" these days
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  83. # [03:05] <nox> gsnedders: Used quite often in French hip hop too. :P
  84. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: looking at the invite-expert thing now
  85. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: done, afaict
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  88. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> Apache project is so sad
  89. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> https://bz.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=47485#c20
  90. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> *Apache Web Server Project
  91. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> dunno why anybody in their right mind actualy willingly chooses apache unless they have no other others for some reason
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  93. # [03:18] <tantek> MikeSmith because they have legacy .htaccess httpd.conf they don't want to try to figure out for new web server software?
  94. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> tantek: yeah probably so in a lot of cases
  95. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> but that too is a sad reason
  96. # [03:19] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/join still says "[not authorized to join]"
  97. # [03:19] <tantek> MikeSmith - serving HTTP is not portable across implementations
  98. # [03:20] <tantek> definitely a weakness in the overall web platform
  99. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  101. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: my thing says "Geoffrey Sneddon's Invited Expert status... Geoffrey Sneddon is an invited expert without Member access... This person is currently allowed to participate in:"
  102. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> it all looks right
  103. # [03:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: um…
  104. # [03:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: uh
  105. # [03:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I've never been able to get this to work since I ceased being an Opera rep, FWIW
  106. # [03:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: so I guess there's some bad state somewhere
  107. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: maybe I can get it resend it
  108. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> lemme check on stuff
  109. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: try the one I just sent now
  110. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> your inbox
  111. # [03:26] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: that works
  112. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> rock n roll
  113. # [03:26] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: and so does the HTML one now too
  114. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> oh
  115. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> ok well you can join both
  116. # [03:27] <gsnedders> don't I need chairs permission for webapps?
  117. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> well
  118. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> officially I guess you're supposed to
  119. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> so Art may ask me about it
  120. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> but Art is my pal and we can work it out either way
  121. # [03:29] <gsnedders> also, how do I control what email gets auto-subscribed to the list? is it the default email on my account?
  122. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> but as far as the system is concerned, you're already in
  123. # [03:29] * gsnedders forgets how this works
  124. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> yes
  125. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> the WG lists are so-called "DB-backed" lists
  126. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> if you're in the WG, you can't un-subscribe from them
  127. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> the only way to get off the mailing list is to leave the WG
  128. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  129. # [03:30] * gsnedders wonders if he should keep with the separate email account for mailing lists nonsense
  130. # [03:30] <gsnedders> it made more sense when I cared about space
  131. # [03:30] <gsnedders> like, gigabytes of emails mattering
  132. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's your acount e-mail address and you can"t change it to another address
  133. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> boo hoo hoo (about gigabytes of e-mail)
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  135. # [03:31] <gsnedders> I'd love if it were possible for change it to another address on your account, FWIW
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  137. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> it may actually be but if so I don't know how
  138. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> if you send a message to sysreq@w3.org you can see
  139. # [03:32] * gsnedders decides to kill off foolistbar@gmail.com now space is cheap and he hasn't actually sent any email from that account in years
  140. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> doesn't hurt to ask
  141. # [03:33] <gsnedders> so it doesn't matter at all :P
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  143. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> wanderview: as far as "crew" vs "squad" the coolest word is actually "set"
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  145. # [03:36] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: interestingly I only got an email for joining the webapps, not the html wg
  146. # [03:37] <gsnedders> was I somehow sorta a member still of the html wg? weird
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  148. # [03:37] * gsnedders wonders whether he's attending plenary day
  149. # [03:37] <gsnedders> without MikeSmith around it doesn't seem worth it
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  157. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> plenary day is usually fun
  158. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> they do it unconference-style now
  159. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> after tantek helped get it set up that way 2-3 years back
  160. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> so it can be genuinely productive and enlightening
  161. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> breakout sessions
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  177. # [05:15] <cvrebert> Anyone care to confirm that I'm reading the maxlength part of the HTML spec right?: http://jsbin.com/xutife/1/edit?html,js,output
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  179. # [05:19] <cvrebert> Because if yes, then Firefox and Edge are buggy
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  216. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> mkwst: https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/powerfulfeatures/#example-ba3d2b06 makes me wonder if maybe you should introduce the notion/terminology of something having become "tainted"
  217. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> (the case of Shared Worker shared with an insecure context)
  218. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> also, the example might benefit from titles
  219. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., Example 10: Shared Worker shared with an insecure context
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  221. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> e.g., Example 9: Shared Worker shared only with secure contexts
  222. # [07:50] <mkwst> MikeSmith: annevk suggested something similar in a GitHub issue. I'm not sure it's worth the complexity.
  223. # [07:52] <mkwst> https://github.com/w3c/webappsec/issues/406. Feedback on that bug would be helpful.
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  225. # [07:55] * MikeSmith looks
  226. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> fair enough
  227. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> Progress Not Perfection
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  229. # [08:03] <cvrebert> In the hope that either a Mozilla or HTML forms spec wonk is around: https://bugzil.la/1203844
  230. # [08:07] <annevk> cvrebert: looks valid if it still applies in Nightly (haven't tested)
  231. # [08:07] <annevk> cvrebert: bugs in web standards you want to file against Core, not Firefox
  232. # [08:08] <cvrebert> annevk: tested in Dev Edition 42.0a2
  233. # [08:10] <cvrebert> annevk: I've had mixed experiences with pre-triaging like that; never gotten a response to some of them
  234. # [08:11] <annevk> cvrebert: hmm yeah I guess sometimes you need to copy folks
  235. # [08:11] <annevk> cvrebert: so maybe I just ruined it for you, huh?
  236. # [08:12] <annevk> Wow, MikeSmith is hacking Pascal
  237. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> I seriously like this code
  238. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> the Wattsi code
  239. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> the change I made is trivial but I took an opportunity to explore some of the rest of it
  240. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> and it's pretty clever
  241. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> e.g., the html parser
  242. # [08:19] * Joins: alrra (uid62345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhrrxmvhfjbdrypd)
  243. # [08:20] <cvrebert> annevk: yeah. well, hopefully setting is as a dependency of the html5forms bug just spammed someone relevant
  244. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> cvrebert: Mozilla is rumored to have a secret IRC server called irc.mozilla.org or something like that, and secret #developers or some such channel where the developers would probably hang out if such a thing did exist
  245. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> just sayin'
  246. # [08:20] <annevk> Bug tracking for large projects gets so complicated
  247. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> cvrebert: there's also a magic phrase I saw someone use once that has special power to get implementor attention for a bug report
  248. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> "I have now invested quite a lot effort into this bug, time has come for you to act."
  249. # [08:26] <cvrebert> MikeSmith: Ah, the ol' "insult them so they help you just to spite you" gambit. http://www.2ality.com/2012/09/getting-help-linux.html
  250. # [08:27] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle_
  251. # [08:32] <mkwst> MikeSmith: I usually hear "I'm going to move to Firefox unless you fix this!"
  252. # [08:32] <mkwst> Totally effective, by the way. I drop whatever I'm doing, every time.
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  255. # [08:37] <annevk> I guess the holidays are over
  256. # [08:37] <annevk> Waking up to 41 unread threads is new
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  262. # [08:51] <annevk> Whoa, code for merging big5 and big5-hkscs just landed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=912470
  263. # [08:51] <annevk> hsivonen++
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  266. # [08:55] <mkwst> annevk: Any thoughts on https://github.com/w3c/webappsec/issues/263, many months later?
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  270. # [09:01] <mkwst> Do you still think something like `navigator.permissions.query({ name: "secureContext" })` is a good model?
  271. # [09:02] <annevk> mkwst: no
  272. # [09:03] <annevk> mkwst: I think ideally we just make secure contexts part of HTML
  273. # [09:03] <annevk> mkwst: but it's still not clear to me if we can do for shared workers and several other things what would be ideal from a security perspective
  274. # [09:04] <annevk> mkwst: to make the Bs cross-origin in the setup insecure A -> secure B and secure C -> secure B
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  276. # [09:05] <mkwst> annevk: Yeah. It's just not clear to me that that's enough of a risk to inject a good deal of complexity into the origin concept (and implementation, etc).
  277. # [09:06] <annevk> mkwst: but if we're not doing that, doing ancestor checks seems rather phony
  278. # [09:06] <mkwst> That said, I kinda want to do something like that. rbarnes pointed me to the Containers concept that's floating around Mozilla. It would be nice to allow sites to opt into something like that.
  279. # [09:07] * Parts: Jasper (jstpierre@unaffiliated/magcius) ("Leaving")
  280. # [09:07] <annevk> mkwst: which is rather straightforwardly done in HTML, if the environment was created based on a response whose HTTPS state is authenticated, ...
  281. # [09:07] <mkwst> annevk: Really? It covers a good chunk of the badness, doesn't it? The case that it doesn't cover is when a new window pops up and uses a shared worker to proxy data to a frame with an insecure ancestor, that then pumps the data to the insecure ancestor.
  282. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: (or anybody) do you know what the holdup is on SW client.navigate()?
  283. # [09:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe JakeA knows
  284. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> k
  285. # [09:08] <annevk> mkwst: maybe, both bz and bholley weren't very convinced
  286. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> JakeA: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=500911 seems to be stalled since late June
  287. # [09:08] <annevk> mkwst: and when it comes to this, you want them on board
  288. # [09:09] <annevk> mkwst: I don't think rbarnes has wrestled with that code much, but I could be mistaken
  289. # [09:09] <mkwst> annevk: I think bz was more concerned about the sloppy ancestor chain walking than the concept. That was my read of https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2015Jul/0033.html.
  290. # [09:10] <mkwst> For clarity, the containers thing is a separate topic entirely. Related tangentially, but distinct from this conversation.
  291. # [09:11] <annevk> mkwst: I guess, maybe it just irks me that's it not properly grounded
  292. # [09:11] <mkwst> It's not clear what "properly grounded" means. :)
  293. # [09:12] <annevk> mkwst: once you start checking lists for bits you lose, basically, security-wise
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  295. # [09:12] <annevk> mkwst: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_authority
  296. # [09:13] <annevk> mkwst: at some point CORS had a thing where each redirect appended something to the Origin header and the server had to approve them all
  297. # [09:13] <annevk> mkwst: Mark Miller kinda destroyed that
  298. # [09:14] <JakeA> MikeSmith: ohhh, that was in Canary last I checked
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  300. # [09:15] <JakeA> MikeSmith: ah, so it's blocked on security review. I'll chase it
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  303. # [09:17] <mkwst> annevk: Pushing a taint bit down to each context is certainly doable.
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  306. # [09:18] <annevk> mkwst: I think you misunderstood
  307. # [09:19] <mkwst> Enlighten me. :)
  308. # [09:19] <annevk> mkwst: I guess what I'm saying is that if this doesn't become a new type of origin, it's not grounded
  309. # [09:19] <annevk> mkwst: and just some additional checks to make things difficult
  310. # [09:19] * Joins: slartsa (~lari@176-93-150-155.bb.dnainternet.fi)
  311. # [09:22] <mkwst> We didn't change the origin concept for mixed content. Or certificate changes. Cookies continue to span across everything on an eTLD+1.
  312. # [09:22] <mkwst> I think that anything we do here will be "additional checks to make things difficult".
  313. # [09:22] <mkwst> For instance: if I can pop up a new window, I don't need the shared worker, as the frame and the window can communicate directly via `window.opener` or indirectly via `postMessage`.
  314. # [09:22] <mkwst> Splitting the origin prevents them from communicating via `localStorage` as well, but I'm not sure it does much more than that.
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  317. # [09:27] <annevk> BroadcastChannel would stop working
  318. # [09:28] <annevk> Mixed Content was a mistake we're trying to fix, that's different
  319. # [09:28] <annevk> If we were to introduce HTTPS today, we wouldn't have Mixed Content
  320. # [09:28] <annevk> Same for eTLD+1
  321. # [09:30] <mkwst> (I've never heard of BroadcastChannel... guess I need to skim the spec?)
  322. # [09:31] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  323. # [09:31] <annevk> mkwst: it allows same-origin environments to communicate
  324. # [09:32] <mkwst> Interesting. Why do we need that?
  325. # [09:34] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  326. # [09:34] <annevk> mkwst: folks were abusing localStorage's storage events for it... it's an alternative to shared workers, which we were hoping folks would use
  327. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> heycam|away: if you care to comment https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/137
  328. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> JakeA: thanks!
  329. # [09:36] <mkwst> Apparently https://crbug.com/161070
  330. # [09:36] <mkwst> Filed in 2012, worked on briefly in 2014, no one's on it right now.
  331. # [09:36] * Joins: wk96 (wk96@broadband-95-84-140-153.nationalcablenetworks.ru)
  332. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> what's the +1 in eTLD+1 for?
  333. # [09:38] <mkwst> effective top level domain of `yay.appspot.com` is `appspot.com`.
  334. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> yeah that part I know
  335. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> oh
  336. # [09:38] <mkwst> eTLD+1 is `yay.appspot.com`, which is the first bit that you can set cookies on, etc.
  337. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> I see
  338. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
  339. # [09:39] <mkwst> +1 label.
  340. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> Yeah I could have figured that out if I had thought about it for a few seconds instead of asking
  341. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  345. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/whatwg/html/blob/03aaf5e2f7e2af9663819556baa275ea38758295/images/asyncdefer.svg is another good diagram
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  347. # [09:47] <annevk> I want a term for eTLD+1, I was thinking "site" but a URL's site just seems rather wrong
  348. # [09:48] <annevk> That's one of the things blocking a more formal definition of public suffixes in URL
  349. # [09:49] <mkwst> "registerable domain"?
  350. # [09:50] <annevk> mkwst: doesn't make sense for github.io
  351. # [09:50] <annevk> well maybe it does a bit for that one
  352. # [09:50] <mkwst> Sure it does. GitHub is the registrar, and hands out assignments based on usernames.
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  354. # [09:52] <annevk> I guess it might be true for all of them, but in theory you could have a company that just wants defense-in-depth and applies for it therefore
  355. # [09:54] <mkwst> Sure. It's still the registrar.
  356. # [09:54] <mkwst> Just like Google is the registrar for `.google`.
  357. # [09:54] <mkwst> "registerable" doesn't mean "publicly registerable".
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  370. # [11:25] <annevk> mkwst: I see a PR to the URL standard in your future :-P
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  372. # [11:31] <mkwst> `git clone everything-that-anne-works-on`
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  374. # [11:36] <mkwst> annevk: Where do you want it? "A URL's host is a registerable domain if blah blah labels blah blah publicsuffix.org blah." + "A URL is registerable if its host is a registerable domain."?
  375. # [11:37] <annevk> mkwst: perhaps it should be part of https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#hosts-%28domains-and-ip-addresses%29?
  376. # [11:37] <mkwst> Yeah. That's where I'm putting the first part. I guess we don't need the second part.
  377. # [11:38] <annevk> mkwst: note https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25865 in particular
  378. # [11:38] <annevk> mkwst: also, I haven't studied the cookie RFC and document.domain closely enough to know what hooks they would need to drop the direct dependency on publicsuffix
  379. # [11:38] <annevk> mkwst: we'd want to make sure this fix addresses that
  380. # [11:39] <mkwst> I'm poking at the Cookie RFC somewhat unwillingly already, so, yeah. `document.domain` just says something like "If value is a public suffix, reject."
  381. # [11:42] <mkwst> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#dom-document-domain step 4.3
  382. # [11:47] <annevk> mkwst: yeah, we could make that "if new value is not a registrable domain, throw"
  383. # [11:48] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.86.64)
  384. # [11:48] <annevk> mkwst: btw, it's registrable according to G, not registerable
  385. # [11:48] <annevk> registerrible
  386. # [11:49] <mkwst> Whatever. It's whatever we say it is. Referer, for instance.
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  388. # [11:52] <annevk> I'll redefine you as Mike East, PR coming up
  389. # [12:01] <mkwst> If you find my spec, _please_ let me know. I'm so confused about so many things. :)
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  392. # [12:26] <jgraham> mkwst: Have you read specs recently? "confused about many things" is their default state
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  398. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: about https://github.com/whatwg/html-build/issues/26#issuecomment-139465986 what happened?
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  403. # [12:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: so Domenic tried to pull in my PR and apply it, but due to my PR not being rebased it got lost since he didn't have history
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  405. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> ah
  406. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> so that's fixable
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  408. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> when contributors get to the point that they have a branch ready to merge, we can tell them how to do it
  409. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> or we just do it
  410. # [12:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: well, Domenic tried to merge my thing but it got messed up since his local repo was not complete
  411. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> OK
  412. # [13:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: so I guess it's mainly a problem for any "team" folks if they use that setup
  413. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  414. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> we need to document it in TEAM.md
  415. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> anyway I figured out a fix to a different problem that Domenic reported yesterday
  416. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> which is the the --depth 1 thing left him unable to get any other branches
  417. # [13:00] <jgraham> Having an incomplete local checkout just seems like it's asking for things to be more complicated than necessary
  418. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: well the alternative is that first time every new contributor who doesn't already have a repo shows up, they have to sit for a long time waiting for the build to clone the entire history
  419. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> but I agree with you
  420. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> it's just, we will need to get the contributors to actually clone the whole history eventually
  421. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> just not the very first moment they try to get their environment set up
  422. # [13:05] <jgraham> Depends how long that actually takes I guess
  423. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> long
  424. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> too long
  425. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> it gets to around 24% and sorta hangs there every time
  426. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> why, I don't know, but it's 100% reproducbile
  427. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> and then it crawls along for a long time after that before it completes
  428. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> real 3m0.134s
  429. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> just tried it
  430. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> and that is over a ~100Mbs data connection
  431. # [13:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Pretty sure that Hixie added something big around commit 0.24 * 9000
  432. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> yeah I figured he must have
  433. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> oh I bet I know
  434. # [13:09] <annevk> We could just say it'll take a long time
  435. # [13:10] <annevk> I think that's better than ending up with half-working repos
  436. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> that's when he first added the class=impl stuff I bet
  437. # [13:10] <jgraham> So, based on the fact that I have worked with chromium, gecko and (shudder) B2G, 3 minutes for a clone is not a long time ;)
  438. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm happy to do whatever we get agreement on, but I seriously think we should wait to worry about it until we have contributors show up and if we get actuall evidence that it's causing problems
  439. # [13:12] <jgraham> MikeSmith: My bias, which is worth very little here, is to tell people to do the most normal thing possible until people show up and start indicating that that causes a problem
  440. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> I would rather not preemptively try to avoid problems we don't have evidence we're gonna actually have
  441. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the problem I see with that plan is that they may give up and quit before they actually ever get started
  442. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> we put a lot of thought and time into trying to make the initial build as easy as possible for people
  443. # [13:13] <jgraham> If your commitment to the cause doesn't extend to waiting three minutes for a clone it doesn't seem like you are going to have a great time
  444. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> it would suck if we end up making it take 10 minuts or more for normal people to first try it
  445. # [13:14] <jgraham> I mean for a typo fix or whatever you don't need to make a clone at all, just use the GH UI
  446. # [13:14] <mkwst> jgraham: Does the GH UI work for a million line file?
  447. # [13:14] <mkwst> I suspect it falls down and dies.
  448. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> I wish sometime we would try a bit to think like normal people instead of self-selecting the way that works best for us
  449. # [13:15] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Normal people don't read the HTML spec.
  450. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> they do actually
  451. # [13:15] <jgraham> MikeSmith: My "thinking like normal people" mode tells me that normal people won't read the instructions
  452. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> for better or worse, they actually do
  453. # [13:15] <jgraham> they will try to do a clone in the way that they clone every other repo
  454. # [13:15] <jgraham> and then expect their normal repitiore of git knowledge to work
  455. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> that's the thing
  456. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> this is not from instructions
  457. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> the build does it automatically
  458. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> the git clone call
  459. # [13:17] <jgraham> mkwst: Seems it doesn't. That's annoying
  460. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> anyway, in the end I'm happy to make it do whatever we decide
  461. # [13:18] <nox> mkwst: You mean we aren't normal?
  462. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> but I would just like the decision to be based on some kind of evidence rather than on opinions
  463. # [13:18] <nox> 13:15 <jgraham> MikeSmith: My "thinking like normal people" mode tells me that normal people won't read the instructions
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  465. # [13:18] <nox> jgraham: I know how to save the Web, thanks to you.
  466. # [13:18] <mkwst> nox: _You_, of course, are normal. It's the rest of us.
  467. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  468. # [13:18] <nox> jgraham: When do we get Ikea in WHATWG?
  469. # [13:18] <nox> They should be the ones write the instructions!
  470. # [13:19] <nox> writing*
  471. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> "Please leave your sense of normalness at the door."
  472. # [13:19] <jgraham> We should replace specs with little pictoral diagrams of people trying to build a web browser
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  474. # [13:20] <jgraham> "assembley will require dozens of people and about 10 years"
  475. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> :)
  476. # [13:20] <nox> jgraham: "578,567,543,154,102 pieces"
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  482. # [13:47] <annevk> mkwst: only 120k lines or so
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  484. # [13:48] <mkwst> annevk: close enough.
  485. # [13:48] <annevk> hah
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  494. # [14:09] <annevk> So editing HTML makes TextWrangler a bit sluggish at times, anyone know if that can be improved?
  495. # [14:09] <mkwst> Use vim.
  496. # [14:09] <gsnedders> Use emacs.
  497. # [14:09] <mkwst> :P
  498. # [14:10] <gsnedders> Damnit, mkwst, you're too fast!
  499. # [14:10] <mkwst> Fewer characters.
  500. # [14:10] <gsnedders> Bah, real men use ed!
  501. # [14:10] <annevk> Hmm, if I turn off syntax highlighting for the document...
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  503. # [14:13] <mkwst> Then your document will be black and white and boring.
  504. # [14:15] <nox> annevk: Long lines, maybe?
  505. # [14:15] <nox> If TextWrangler is as well-coded as Atom, I mean.
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  509. # [14:23] <nerocode> Q&A peeps: why most web designers do their project in mac, not in pc?
  510. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> They don't
  511. # [14:25] <jgraham> Or at least [citation needed]
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  519. # [15:16] <annevk> Oh wow, SVGSVGElement. They couldn't even copy the convention from HTMLHtmlElement
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  521. # [15:30] <gsnedders> nerocode: conjecture: the Mac-only browsers are harder to test than the Windows-only browsers (there are free VMs for IE, there are no VMs for Safari)
  522. # [15:32] <wanderview> annevk: do you remember what we said in july about what to do with marking bodyUsed when the body is null vs empty?
  523. # [15:32] <wanderview> I'm having a hard time deciphering our final decision from https://etherpad.mozilla.org/streams-f2f-july
  524. # [15:33] <annevk> bodyUsed returns IsDisturbed(stream) || used flag
  525. # [15:33] <annevk> - used flag is only relevant when you transfer body to another request (via new Request(otherRequest)). (This can't be done for responses.)
  526. # [15:33] <annevk> wanderview: I think that's the relevant bit
  527. # [15:34] <wanderview> annevk: and we want to make bodyUsed true if you read an empty stream, but not true if the body is null?
  528. # [15:35] <annevk> wanderview: when body is null there's no stream to be disturbed
  529. # [15:35] <wanderview> right
  530. # [15:35] <annevk> wanderview: so yes, only empty stream
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  540. # [15:52] <wanderview> thanks
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  543. # [16:10] <wanderview> Domenic: annevk: what is wrong with requiring H2 if fetch is only going to be used with "the modern web">
  544. # [16:10] <wanderview> ?
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  562. # [16:40] <annevk> wanderview: it's weird
  563. # [16:41] <wanderview> annevk: whats weird now?
  564. # [16:41] <annevk> wanderview: and I don't understand the reasoning
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  566. # [16:42] <wanderview> oh, my question... I already gave in on the gh issue
  567. # [16:42] <annevk> okay
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  575. # [17:19] <gsnedders> bah, no zcorpan or any other current Opera person around
  576. # [17:20] <gsnedders> how am I meant to work out what this crazy test is doing?!
  577. # [17:23] <jgraham> hallvors: Aren't "Opera" and "crazy test" some sort of bat signal for you?
  578. # [17:24] <gsnedders> He doesn't have SVN access to work out the history of the test, which I think is what will make it easy to understand.
  579. # [17:25] <jgraham> He might have brain history that does the same thing
  580. # [17:25] <gsnedders> Though I did just install Opera 12 to try running tests there. Gee, the UI is even worse than I remember on OS X.
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  593. # [17:51] <annevk> gsnedders: philipj is in the channel... not sure about around
  594. # [17:54] <ytrezq> Hello, I have someone claiming that the javascript: scheme is only to be used in the navbar and with <a> <frame> <iframe>. However I’ve unable to found reference to support this, or more exactly,all I found is an expired ɪᴇᴛꜰ draft that didn’t told anything about this.
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  596. # [17:56] <ytrezq> May some please give a link to standard or recommendation please ?
  597. # [17:56] <ytrezq> May some please give a link to the relevant standard or recommendation please ?
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  601. # [18:06] <annevk> ytrezq: https://whatwg.org/html
  602. # [18:06] <annevk> ytrezq: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#javascript-protocol is the specific reference
  603. # [18:07] <annevk> ytrezq: anywhere else javascript: is an unknown scheme and treated the same as a network error
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  607. # [18:22] <ytrezq> annevk: thank you looks likes he was partly wrong by saying he saw it on w3c.org
  608. # [18:24] * caitp|away is now known as caitp-
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  612. # [18:36] <ytrezq> annevk: but I still don’t see where this behaviour is written
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  616. # [18:40] <annevk> ytrezq: W3C copies our work, so you can likely find it there too
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  618. # [18:42] <ytrezq> abarth: no, I mean I still don’t see/understand where is the explained behaviour on https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#javascript-protocol
  619. # [18:42] <ytrezq> (It’s true I also would like the ᴡ3ᴄ reference)
  620. # [18:43] <ytrezq> (probably need to be quoted here)
  621. # [18:45] <ytrezq> sorry abarth wanted to wrote annevk
  622. # [18:46] <annevk> ytrezq: well, that is the navigate algorithm, there's only a couple of elements that can cause that to be invoked, which automatically limits where you can use javascript successfully
  623. # [18:47] <annevk> ytrezq: anyway, I'd recommend to avoid javascript:, the only reason it's in the spec at all is because we cannot break the web
  624. # [18:48] <ytrezq> annevk: Yes I know.
  625. # [18:48] <ytrezq> the point was about allowing data: and javascript: scheme for the longdesc attribute
  626. # [18:49] <ytrezq> the longdesc attribute seems to behave like <a>
  627. # [18:49] * caitp|away is now known as caitp-
  628. # [18:49] <ytrezq> (if implemented via a click in the context menu)
  629. # [18:50] <ytrezq> %R Per that spec, it should only work in <a>, <frame>, and <iframe> (and notably not <object>; we just haven't gotten around to removing it there yet).%O
  630. # [18:51] <ytrezq> %R“ Per that spec, it should only work in <a>, <frame>, and <iframe> (and notably not <object>; we just haven't gotten around to removing it there yet).”%O
  631. # [18:52] <annevk> ytrezq: longdesc is obsolete, any implementation that supports it is wrong
  632. # [18:53] <ytrezq> even for html version4 ?
  633. # [18:53] <annevk> ytrezq: HTML doesn't have versions
  634. # [18:53] <ytrezq> ok html4 then
  635. # [18:53] <annevk> ytrezq: HTML4 is obsolete
  636. # [18:55] <annevk> Which reminds me, I should replace HTML5 with HTML in https://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill I guess
  637. # [18:57] <ytrezq> thank you
  638. # [18:57] * annevk strikes it to preserve history
  639. # [19:00] <ytrezq> And sorry for insisting, but how would the <embed> element violate the Origin Policy of the algorithm (can’t see how it is forbidden)
  640. # [19:00] <annevk> ytrezq: are you asking why <embed> wouldn't support javascript URLs?
  641. # [19:01] <ytrezq> ehmmm yes…
  642. # [19:01] <ytrezq> ehmmm yes I do…
  643. # [19:01] <annevk> ytrezq: well, <embed> doesn't use navigate
  644. # [19:01] <annevk> ytrezq: it fetches the resource itself, and fetching javascript URLs results in a network error
  645. # [19:02] <annevk> ytrezq: javascript URLs not working is not really related to the same-origin policy
  646. # [19:02] <annevk> ytrezq: <object> is similar to <embed> in that respect, btw
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  648. # [19:04] <ytrezq> “doesn't use navigate” I still not understand what navigate is (or at least it’s concept).
  649. # [19:04] <annevk> ytrezq: it's an algorithm that describes how user agents navigate browsing contexts
  650. # [19:05] <ytrezq> ok
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  652. # [19:05] <annevk> ytrezq: browsing contexts are what you see in e.g., a browser, and can be nested through <frame> and <iframe> and such
  653. # [19:06] <annevk> ytrezq: the link I gave you earlier points to a step in the navigate algorithm, it's quite long
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  655. # [19:09] <ytrezq> So I guess only <iframe> <frame> and <a> use it ?(removing here other attributes are obsolete)
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  657. # [19:11] <annevk> ytrezq: yeah, that seems about right, there's a bunch of other features that tie into navigate as well of course, but that's mostly script
  658. # [19:12] <ytrezq> I’m talking about ʜᴛᴍʟ ones
  659. # [19:12] <annevk> ytrezq: <area> too
  660. # [19:12] <annevk> ytrezq: and <form action> maybe
  661. # [19:13] <annevk> ytrezq: HTML is a tad ambiguous, since the standard defines many APIs too, but I suppose you just mean the markup bits
  662. # [19:14] <ytrezq> <input> ?
  663. # [19:15] <annevk> ytrezq: why would <input> use navigate?
  664. # [19:16] <ytrezq> it can take an src attribute
  665. # [19:17] <annevk> ytrezq: there's lots of elements that can fetch resources
  666. # [19:17] <annevk> ytrezq: has nothing to do with navigate
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  668. # [19:18] <annevk> anyway, hopefully someone else can help you out further, taking a break
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  673. # [19:25] <ytrezq> annevk: no not that much <applet> <base><head> <img> <ins> <audio> <audio> <button> <command> <html> <source> <video> <meta> <link>
  674. # [19:25] <ytrezq> annevk: no not that much <applet> <base><head> <img> <ins> <audio> <button> <command> <html> <source> <video> <meta> <link>
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  676. # [19:28] <jsbell> Any mozillians about who have opinions on http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/ ?
  677. # [19:28] <Ms2ger> jsbell, did you ever submit those timing tests to wpt?
  678. # [19:29] <jsbell> Ms2ger: The microtasks vs. tasks ones? No... trying to find the gist or whatever I dumped them in now...
  679. # [19:30] <jsbell> Oh, yes, https://gist.github.com/inexorabletash/9bf9ff9c0c62c4bc814f - because gists are indexed by name of first file, not title. :P
  680. # [19:31] * caitp- is now known as caitp|away
  681. # [19:34] <jsbell> Ms2ger: Suggestion for a directory? (or you could do it, since you'll get all the <meta> tags right the first time etc)
  682. # [19:35] <jgraham> <meta> tags?
  683. # [19:35] <jgraham> Or are these reftests?
  684. # [19:35] <jsbell> or link or whatever
  685. # [19:35] <jsbell> see, this is why I shouldn't do it. :)
  686. # [19:36] <jgraham> My point is that unless they're reftests you shouldn't need to do much of anything
  687. # [19:36] <jsbell> heh. Well, suggest a directory. naming is hard
  688. # [19:36] <jgraham> I have no idea what these tests are :)
  689. # [19:36] <jgraham> Which spec?
  690. # [19:37] * gsnedders wonders what the odds of dropping XPathEvaluator etc. are…
  691. # [19:38] <jgraham> jsbell: And re: filesystem api I guess you maybe want sicking?
  692. # [19:38] <jsbell> jgraham: I guess technically html - https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#processing-model-9
  693. # [19:38] <jsbell> jgraham: sorry, not multipage, don't click that. :P
  694. # [19:39] <gsnedders> somewhere in the html directory, then :P
  695. # [19:39] <gsnedders> I would find where exactly, but that'd mean reopening the spec which I just closed
  696. # [19:40] <jsbell> okay, sensible answers, I'm good
  697. # [19:42] <jgraham> jsbell: There's a system!
  698. # [19:42] <jgraham> directories are named after the id of the section headings
  699. # [19:42] <jsbell> yeah, yeah, got it now. :)
  700. # [19:43] <jgraham> html/webappapis/scripting/event-loops sounds about right
  701. # [19:44] <jsbell> yep, working on the patch now
  702. # [19:44] <jgraham> jsbell++
  703. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> jsbell++
  704. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> (Sorry, was afk baking cookies)
  705. # [19:46] <jsbell> ERR_OVERFLOW
  706. # [19:46] <jsbell> yummy, afk to find cookies
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  710. # [19:56] <Domenic> gsnedders: not great, see stats quoted in https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/67
  711. # [19:57] <gsnedders> Domenic: k, that's what I thought
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  719. # [20:05] <nox> XPath! So many memories.
  720. # [20:05] <jsbell> Ms2ger, jgraham: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5799
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  722. # [20:09] <jgraham> jsbell: Awesome
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  759. # [21:27] <ccardona-work> Good morning WHATWG crew! o/
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  762. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> ccardona-work: Morning, Carlos. ^_^
  763. # [21:32] <ccardona-work> hey tab. Long time no chat. I hope all is well w/ you.
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