/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 26 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [01:17] <jgraham> SimonSapin: It isn't a true reference implementation; if it disagrees with the spec then the spec is right and the implemenation is wrong. But one goal was certainly to help with the development of the spec.
  17. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> fair enough
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  160. # [12:00] <qq[IrcCity]> hello. where can I find people who care about bugs in processing “text/plain” by major modern browsers? more details here http://www.superstructure.info/browser/compromised/toxic-sniffing.html (the story is only partially written, but enough to see bugs).
  161. # [12:07] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: "bugs"
  162. # [12:07] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: see https://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/
  163. # [12:09] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: if your problem is with BOM being more important than other encoding declarations, that's https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/
  164. # [12:09] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: also not considered a bug
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  166. # [12:15] <qq[IrcCity]> annevk: a text wall too high; didn’t find anyting relevant to my case but mentioning of one https://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#no-sniff-flag but without much detail.
  167. # [12:15] <qq[IrcCity]> could you give a link to provisions that are relevant to “text/plain”?
  168. # [12:16] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: it's very much unclear what "processing bug" you're talking about so I don't know
  169. # [12:16] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: if it's indeed mostly about encodings, I recommend reading the Encoding Standard
  170. # [12:16] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: you shouldn't be using non-utf-8 encodings anyway
  171. # [12:16] <qq[IrcCity]> damn. who approved it?
  172. # [12:16] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: and BOM trumps Content-Type
  173. # [12:17] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: not sure what you mean
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  175. # [12:17] <qq[IrcCity]> which standard-making body declared “you shouldn't be using non-utf-8 encodings anyway”?
  176. # [12:18] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: WHATWG, and I guess W3C did too since they copied it over
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  178. # [12:20] <qq[IrcCity]> annevk: W3C standard of HTML5 doesn’t contain such rubbish. it ony specified that if the document is seemingly Unicode (isn’t encoded in an octet-oriented code page), then BOM takes precedence.
  179. # [12:21] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: while out of date and a poor reference, http://www.w3.org/TR/encoding/ most certainly has the same requirement as https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ with regards to utf-8
  180. # [12:22] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: also, http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/references.html#refsENCODING
  181. # [12:22] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: anyway, I wouldn't recommend reading W3C copies, they're not what's being implemented
  182. # [12:25] <qq[IrcCity]> http://www.w3.org/TR/encoding/ doesn’t state anything is deprecated, restricted to certain circumstances, or so. all encodings are, theoretically, permitted.
  183. # [12:25] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: *sigh*
  184. # [12:25] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: 'Authors must use the utf-8 encoding and must use the ASCII case-insensitive "utf-8" label to identify it.'
  185. # [12:26] <qq[IrcCity]> again, HTML5 is about “text/html”. annevk, do you understand the word “text/plain”?
  186. # [12:26] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: HTML defines how text/plain works
  187. # [12:26] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: and text/plain is not a word
  188. # [12:27] <qq[IrcCity]> RoTFL. these are different media types.
  189. # [12:27] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: sure, but it's rendered using the HTML parser, see "Page load processing model for text files"
  190. # [12:28] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: in the HTML standard
  191. # [12:28] <qq[IrcCity]> annevk, I read in HTML5 about parser.
  192. # [12:28] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: irrespective of that, the Encoding standard applies to all MIME types
  193. # [12:28] <qq[IrcCity]> it’s a stage after decoding, not before.
  194. # [12:29] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: actually, part of the HTML parser handles decoding
  195. # [12:29] <qq[IrcCity]> HTML decoding rules apply only to HTML.
  196. # [12:30] <qq[IrcCity]> and HTML5 make a special provision abour “irrelevent” confidence.
  197. # [12:30] <qq[IrcCity]> when browser operates in its internal text encoding.
  198. # [12:31] <annevk> I see, well, have a nice day
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  203. # [12:47] <qq[IrcCity]> annevk, I think W3C people missed your out-of-context “Authors must use the utf-8” thing in CR-encoding-20140916, and possibly will be amazed with such your “novel” ideas as applying BOM sniffing to all media types including binaries ☺
  204. # [12:47] <qq[IrcCity]> may I quote this chat in mailing lists?
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  212. # [13:32] <qq[IrcCity]> given the channel has logs publicly readable at krijnhoetmer.nl, I’ll proceed to quote the conversation without explicit permission.
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  215. # [13:36] <annevk> Hah, you're in for a surprise ;-)
  216. # [13:37] <annevk> But yeah, feel free to quote. I tried to help you out, but it seems like you had some set of answers already
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  219. # [13:44] <qq[IrcCity]> sure, I’m conservative. my “set of answers” is based on original HTTP/1.1, not diluted by accommodation to idiocy.
  220. # [13:44] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: please stay civil
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  222. # [13:46] <qq[IrcCity]> naïve people here. admins of httpd software were told for 17 years (since RFC 2068 till HTML5) they must specify Content-Type: text/whichever, charset=actual. many of them ignored it.
  223. # [13:47] <qq[IrcCity]> now you make BOM sniffing mandatory and hope it would be universal solution ☺
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  225. # [13:50] <annevk> sounds about right
  226. # [13:52] <qq[IrcCity]> and naïve Prof. Dürst who boasts he pioneered reliability of heuristic UTF-8 detection as early as in 1997, but seemingly unaware how modern broswers “detect” UTF-8 :D
  227. # [13:57] <qq[IrcCity]> I would look to see what Martin J. Dürst would do when, eventually, learned about the algorithm promulgated by Anne van Kesteren and company. what would he say to Anne.
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  229. # [13:57] <annevk> Pretty sure he knows about it
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  231. # [13:58] <qq[IrcCity]> if the stream starts with «\357\273\277», then it’s damn UTF-8, no matter the fourth byte is \377 :D
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  234. # [14:18] <qq[IrcCity]> one big problem: major browsers ceased to honour values in Content-Type, and not only for text/html. and two narrower cases: 1. broken text/plain (already),
  235. # [14:18] <qq[IrcCity]> 2. such novelties as “the Encoding standard applies to all MIME types” (yet to happen to application/* and so on).
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  238. # [14:34] <nox> How is text/plain broken?
  239. # [14:36] <qq[IrcCity]> nox, did you see test cases at http://www.superstructure.info/browser/compromised/toxic-sniffing.html#better ?
  240. # [14:37] <qq[IrcCity]> one should enter \357\273\277 and so on manually, of course.
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  242. # [14:39] <nox> I don't understand.
  243. # [14:39] <nox> What spec does that test follow?
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  245. # [14:42] <qq[IrcCity]> nox, testing compliancy with RFC 2616 was initially in mind. RFC 7231 is somewhat vague about Content-Type, but major browsers defy even its relaxed provisions.
  246. # [14:42] <nox> Where is the accommodation to idiocy?
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  248. # [14:44] <qq[IrcCity]> nox: overriding explicitly serviced «charset=» with own guesses. BTW, what is no-sniff-flag?
  249. # [14:48] <qq[IrcCity]> in other words, Google Chrome tells its user that one lamer qq[IrcCity] mistook «charset=» and it (Google) knows better what was intended meaning.
  250. # [14:49] <qq[IrcCity]> even when the text its claim to be UTF-8 has \377 in the fourth octet.
  251. # [14:49] <nox> What is that text?
  252. # [14:49] <nox> The page is lacking many information. What was the actual charset you intended to transmit?
  253. # [14:51] <qq[IrcCity]> nox, there is a simpler test case at http://course.irccity.ru/ya-yu-9-amp.txt but about toxic UTF-16. two minutes, about to made the same for UTF-8.
  254. # [14:53] <nox> qq[IrcCity]: And why would \377 as the fourth octet change things btw?
  255. # [14:53] <qq[IrcCity]> from the point of view of RFC 2616, it’s at all irrelevant.
  256. # [14:54] <qq[IrcCity]> but it can show madness of BOM sniffing better.
  257. # [14:55] <nox> I see.
  258. # [14:56] <nox> Interestingly, forcing charset to Windows-1251 on that last link doesn't change anything in Safari.
  259. # [14:57] <qq[IrcCity]> http://course.irccity.ru/p-guillemet-yi-ya.txt shows toxic UTF-8.
  260. # [14:57] <nox> qq[IrcCity]: Then again, the question is whether your examples are the majority, or whether actually honouring 'charset' breaks more things.
  261. # [14:58] <qq[IrcCity]> examples are not about majority. they are about predictability.
  262. # [14:59] <nox> The rules you call bugs are predictable.
  263. # [15:01] <qq[IrcCity]> they are predictable only since some guys found certain WhatWG and developers agreed to follow recommendations. they aren’t predictable in the old world where protocols did matter.
  264. # [15:02] <nox> You do realise that the specs are how they are because actually the majority never cared about honouring 'charset', even in the old world?
  265. # [15:02] <qq[IrcCity]> nox, which majority? Russian-speaking sites mostly cared.
  266. # [15:03] <qq[IrcCity]> and nobody can predict new things will WhatWG invent tomorrow: UTF-8 sniffing for octet-stream or whatever.
  267. # [15:03] <nox> Dürst in a mail linked on the page says "Yes, the iso-8859-1 'default' was invalidated because there were millions and millions of documents for which it would have been wrong, especially in Eastern Europe and Asia."
  268. # [15:03] <nox> Are you talking about something else?
  269. # [15:03] <qq[IrcCity]> nox, about overriding explicitly serviced charset, again.
  270. # [15:04] <qq[IrcCity]> not old HTTP default.
  271. # [15:07] <nox> So I guess this actually broke a Russian-speaking site somewhere?
  272. # [15:07] <qq[IrcCity]> what??
  273. # [15:07] <nox> Not honouring Content-Type.
  274. # [15:08] <qq[IrcCity]> what do you speaking about? 90%+ pages contained charset= if not in Content-Type, then in HTML <meta> in the worst case.
  275. # [15:10] <qq[IrcCity]> if I am barred from saying п»їя in Windows-1251 (although all four characters pertain to the codepage), then the protocol is not honoured anymore. not a problem with HTML that may not start…
  276. # [15:10] <qq[IrcCity]> … from arbitrary characters anyway, but a problem for text/plain.
  277. # [15:12] <nox> My question is, is that an actual bug that actually breaks stuff, or is that just a theoretical problem that doesn't break anything in practice?
  278. # [15:12] <nox> You are not barred from saying such a thing in a text/plain document, you are barred from beginning a document with such a thing.
  279. # [15:12] <nox> No?
  280. # [15:14] <nox> Did you look at RFC5987 btw?
  281. # [15:18] <nox> Also, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-26#section-3.1.1.5
  282. # [15:19] <qq[IrcCity]> nox, how is RFC5987 relevant to the dispute? it is related to our case (RFC 7231) like RFC 1522 (i18n of headers) is related to RFC 1521 (i18n of bodies).
  283. # [15:20] <nox> qq[IrcCity]: Yeah disregard that one, lost myself in tabs.
  284. # [15:20] <nox> Meant to ask whether httpbis had some changes planned in that area, apparently no.
  285. # [15:21] <qq[IrcCity]> nox: so you agree that browsers defy HTTP semantics 3.1.1.5, aren’t you?
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  287. # [15:22] <nox> I agree, but I'm not sure it's actually important.
  288. # [15:23] <qq[IrcCity]> I’m not aware anyone complained before me about that.
  289. # [15:24] <qq[IrcCity]> I made Codepage Explorer just for the case, to show an actual application that can be broken by unlucky combination of octets.
  290. # [15:25] <nox> It's a nice catch, but I'm afraid you'll just be told that it's not actually a problem in real world and thus nothing will be changed.
  291. # [15:27] <qq[IrcCity]> not a nice thing for me, since my trust in browsers ended abruptly. this is not that Internet I was accustomed to.
  292. # [15:28] <qq[IrcCity]> nowadays browsers lie you twice more than despisable Windows lied users in 1990s.
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  323. # [18:17] <annevk> Ugh
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  325. # [18:18] <annevk> ECMAScript still requires that `var x = new ArrayBuffer(10); postMessage(x, "*", [x]); console.log(x.byteLength)` throws, but no implementation does that
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  328. # [18:36] <annevk> Oh, actually, I'm mistaken
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  339. # [19:33] <Domenic> Hmm I think it does
  340. # [19:34] <Domenic> Last I checked TC39 still wants to try that. And no implementers want to try that. So awesome.
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  372. # [22:45] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@2601:449:8301:30bd:8501:6960:5190:e730)
  373. # [22:47] * Quits: howdoi (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qlgcqqsspfetcvkw) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  374. # [22:47] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  375. # [22:49] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@2601:449:8301:30bd:8501:6960:5190:e730) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  376. # [22:54] * Joins: ASGuerrero (~ASGuerrer@90.211.149.218)
  377. # [22:54] * Joins: uP|Slave (~ASGuerrer@90.211.149.218)
  378. # [22:55] * Quits: ASGuerrero (~ASGuerrer@90.211.149.218) (Client Quit)
  379. # [22:55] * Quits: uP|Slave (~ASGuerrer@90.211.149.218) (Client Quit)
  380. # [22:56] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  381. # [23:20] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  382. # [23:27] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  383. # [23:34] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.179.176.getinternet.no)
  384. # [23:45] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  385. # [23:46] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@2601:449:8301:30bd:b445:bbfb:9a31:5a0a)
  386. # [23:50] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@2601:449:8301:30bd:b445:bbfb:9a31:5a0a) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  387. # [23:52] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  388. # [23:54] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  389. # [23:56] * Joins: ASGuerrero (~ASGuerrer@90.211.149.218)
  390. # Session Close: Sun Sep 27 00:00:00 2015

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