/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 27 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> I don't understand how it's possible that I never knew about http://devdocs.io/ before now
  16. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> do other people here know about it already?
  17. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> it seems extremely well done, as far as putting some very good UI/UX around aggregated docs from a bunch of different sources (e.g., MDN, but a ton of other stuff as well)
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  19. # [01:40] <jgraham> Oh, I had heard of that but now it has Rust docs
  20. # [01:41] <jgraham> Seems like it could be more convenient than trying to remember where it installs them and start a web server
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  25. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah I'm pretty impressed with it
  26. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> christ it works offline as well
  27. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> amazing
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  30. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> http://devdocs.io/offline
  31. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, 「Fatal error: [Exception... "File error: Corrupted" nsresult: "0x8052000b (NS_ERROR_FILE_CORRUPTED)" location: "JS frame :: https://ton.twimg.com/tweetdeck-web/web/scripts/default.45f48adf49.js :: i.getPreviousStorage/t< :: line 16" data: no]」
  32. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> in Nightly
  33. # [02:40] * MikeSmith asks on #developers
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  51. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: the UX around what I when I navigate to things like https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#cors-preflight-request is suboptimal
  52. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: in that, my browser scrolls "This is named a CORS-preflight request." to the top of the viewport, but the actual details that define what a CORS-preflight request is are above the sentence in document order, so I then need to know enough to know that I have to manually scroll up to get to them
  53. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: but I think a lot of normal users when they see "This is named a CORS-preflight request." are just going to say, What is? and be baffled and not necessarily get that they just need to scroll up a couple of lines
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  56. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw there a handful of good fetch/SW/CORS questions at SO that are unanswered
  57. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32795725/will-service-worker-query-cache-algorithm-allow-expression-matching-url-paths
  58. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/fetch-api?sort=unanswered
  59. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/service-worker?sort=unanswered
  60. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/cors?sort=unanswered
  61. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> including odd stuff like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32669605/what-is-domexception-entry-already-exists that I guess is maybe just a blink bug that somebody working on the SW implementation needs to troubleshoot
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  89. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: since the Fetch spec no longer even defines the term "author request header" (former "custom request header"), I think it's become a lot harder for webdevs to know which headers will trigger a CORS preflight request and which won't
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  97. # [08:22] <Domenic> heycam|away or anyone: are dictionary constructors actually used anywhere? /cc Sebmaster
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  136. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: should the Fetch spec mention Last-Event-ID?
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  233. # [16:42] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I'm not sure I'd call it a "reference" impl. Maybe an experimental implementation, used for prototyping?
  234. # [16:43] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I know Hixie had his own impl, I think prior to html5lib, in Sawzall?
  235. # [16:44] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I think once html5lib came into being Hixie stopped touching his impl much, but you'd have to ask him.
  236. # [16:44] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: maybe a year or two later
  237. # [16:45] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: but yeah, by ~2008 html5lib was the main implementation used for trying out stuff, till the parser landed in Gecko
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  246. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> TIL about Sawzall
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  263. # [18:20] <Domenic> Starting to get serious about upstreaming jsdom tests into web-platform-tests. First step: https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/1246 (main portions: https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/1246/files#diff-3b2955787a83cfa5960bcd95edb33a9cL5 ported to https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/1246/files#diff-a379fbce7fde48a69f04f6e31112f800R1)
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  271. # [19:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: not sure how to answer most of those
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  273. # [19:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: I thought the specification was fairly clear now when a preflight is triggered
  274. # [19:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: Last-Event-ID doesn't trigger it because the API that uses it doesn't set the https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#unsafe-request-flag
  275. # [19:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#unsafe-request-flag is a bit of a cop-out, in my opinion, but seems to be the way the world works
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  278. # [19:20] <qq[IrcCity]> to which mail list should I go to discuss encoding.spec.whatwg.org?
  279. # [19:24] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: if you want to email you can use whatwg@whatwg.org
  280. # [19:24] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: filing an issue on GitHub is preferred, however
  281. # [19:30] <qq[IrcCity]> annevk: is there a web for filing issues?
  282. # [19:30] <qq[IrcCity]> a web form
  283. # [19:30] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: GitHub has forms, yes
  284. # [19:31] <annevk> qq[IrcCity]: the standard has links
  285. # [19:31] <qq[IrcCity]> yes, just following them.
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  295. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#unsafe-request-flag is fine as far as mqking things clear for UA implementors. But think for webdevs a problem is that they don't know at what point particular headers that get set by the UA are added, or just in general don't understand that headers which get set by the UA are not relevantーbecause the spec no longer states that explicitly (no longer speak
  296. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> s of "author request headers" or "custom request headers")
  297. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: please see my answer at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32795489/http-headers-which-cause-preflight-clarification/32806651#32806651 and let me know if I got anything wrong there
  298. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> but if that's right, maybe I can take a shot at writing up something similar as a non-normative note for the spec
  299. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> Domenic: big +1 to the test-upstreaming effort
  300. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/1246#issuecomment-143578179 from Joris-van-der-Wel is good feedback
  301. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> frewsxcv: see https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/1246#issuecomment-143578179
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  305. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> maybe we need to consider dropping some of those testsーespecially any for which the implementor feedback is that the test was "almost useless for me when I was implementing"
  306. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> also maybe we need to think about how to provide a better way for implementors to give feedback about tests as they are implementing
  307. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> as it stands now, in the case where an implementor ends up ignoring a test because it's irrelevant, that's valuable info that we're just losing
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  309. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> 「Are such tests just a relic of the past, or is this really part of "the" style」indeed
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  311. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> some parts of the test suite are a real mixed bag of tests that Ms2ger and jgraham and reviewers and other implementors know to be good tests (that were either written by implementors or by the core reviewers), but then also with tests that we know to be cruft but that got grandfathered in or accepted just because they're not outright wrong or whatever
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  313. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> the only other good way for somebody to be able to tell at this point is for them to also have some knowledge about which test submittors are relevant and which sort of aren't, and then to look at the provenance of any questionable test and set who submitted it
  314. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> in the end though I think implementors, from just looking at test, can tell whether the test was written by an implementor or somebody who understands how to test implementations, vs being written by somebody who wrote a certain test case for the sake of having a certain test case
  315. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> jgraham: see https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/1246#issuecomment-143578179
  316. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> qq[IrcCity]: I hope you are being considerate of other people's time on this text/plain sniffing thing. The answers annevk gave you here yesterday or so were basically the same answers I have you days earlier elsewhere, and are going to be the same answers you get from others you ask
  317. # [20:33] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  318. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> qq[IrcCity]: and being uncivil and dismissive and using words like "idiots" repeatedly isn't going to motivate people to want to pay much attention
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  320. # [20:39] <qq[IrcCity]> MikeSmith: I am right, whereas Anne is not. due to this “Living Standard” compatibility with Internet media types (as used in MIME) is broken at least in two points.
  321. # [20:40] <qq[IrcCity]> first, the problem you already know.
  322. # [20:41] <qq[IrcCity]> second, “legacy encoder” proposed by annevk will produce incorrect results in case of ASCII and ISO 8859-1, due to conflation of these who with Windows-1252.
  323. # [20:41] <qq[IrcCity]> * of these two
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  325. # [20:43] <qq[IrcCity]> this document is short of IETF quality I’m accustomed to.
  326. # [20:43] <qq[IrcCity]> because its main agenda is burning abything but UTF-8, not correctness.
  327. # [20:47] <qq[IrcCity]> and, as far as I understood, people like Julian Fischke are not willing to collaborate with WhatWG due to such attitude.
  328. # [20:48] <Domenic> MikeSmith: I took JoWie's comment more as "this didn't help guide me in the implementation," or maybe "enabling this test gave me no confidence that I'd done things right," instead of "this test does not provide good coverage." I think in general bad tests are going to happen but as long as they increase coverage even a little, it's a plus. Same with
  329. # [20:48] <Domenic> "duplicated" tests where you have two tests testing the same constraint in slightly different ways; you could go to a lot of effort to weed them out, but the added coverage is nice and the pain isn't much.
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  331. # [20:48] <Domenic> MikeSmith: that said I do feel like WPT has a lot of generative tests that are too smart for their own good. E.g. my issue https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/2038
  332. # [20:52] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: what do you hope to gain by engaging in the WHATWG, with that attitude. What concrete goal do you have, besides being "right" (in your mind only).
  333. # [20:53] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic: to stop and reverse dilution of HTTP/1.1 that started to corrupt browsers since about 2014. not more, not less.
  334. # [20:53] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: so you want to change browsers?
  335. # [20:54] <JoWie> yes, i had a failure in that generative test and it was very hard to figure out what I had implemented wrong. I eventually wrote more jsdom custom tests in order to track it down more easily
  336. # [20:54] <JoWie> it was indeed not about coverage
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  338. # [20:55] <JoWie> this WPT felt more of a pass/fail check instead of a debugging aid
  339. # [20:55] <JoWie> and if i wanted to verify that the test actually tests what the spec specifies, it would take a lot of effort (there actually was a spec bug in this instance!)
  340. # [20:56] <Domenic> oh yeah i remember that...
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  342. # [20:57] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic: of course, I can invent patches for FOSS browsers and deploy them for the use of like-minded people (it’s the plan B). but now I’m trying to persuade this community that extermination agenda is unwise.
  343. # [20:57] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: you have this backward. We specify what browsers do. Browsers do what is web compatible.
  344. # [20:58] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: you can't convince the spec editor to change this way.
  345. # [20:58] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: instead you need to find all the web pages that depend on the current behavior on the entire internet, fix them. Then, you can ask browsers to change to the behavior you prefer, since that change will no longer break the internet. THEN, you change the spec.
  346. # [20:58] <JoWie> unless you want another quirks mode
  347. # [21:00] <qq[IrcCity]> did anybody in WHATWG or Mozilla asked how many text/plain pages broke when annevk deployed his sniffer?
  348. # [21:00] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: annevk didn't deploy his sniffer O_O
  349. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> oh, I'd forgotten that JoWie is Joris-van-der-Wel. Hi JoWie
  350. # [21:01] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: browsers have had sniffers since 1995. The IETF specced a fantasy. annevk and the other editors of Encoding specced reality.
  351. # [21:01] <qq[IrcCity]> but somebody in Mozilla did it based on his insistence.
  352. # [21:01] <JoWie> haha hi
  353. # [21:01] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: no, again, you have it backward
  354. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> JoWie: :-)
  355. # [21:01] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic, I tested my cases in Firefox 11. all right!
  356. # [21:02] <JoWie> if you shuffle & discard random letters in my name you can end up with "JoWie" :P
  357. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  358. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> I like that algorithm
  359. # [21:02] <JoWie> that is why the W is capitalized
  360. # [21:03] <MikeSmith> "Step 1: Shuffle and discard random letters."
  361. # [21:03] <MikeSmith> Domenic: roger all that (about JoWie comments and generative+duplicated tests)
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  363. # [21:04] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic: of course there were sniffers in 1995, in the age of HTTP/1.0. so what?
  364. # [21:04] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: do you not understand what I mean when I say you have it backward?
  365. # [21:05] <qq[IrcCity]> no, I do not.
  366. # [21:05] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: we specced what browsers did; we did not spec things and then tell browsers to do them.
  367. # [21:06] <qq[IrcCity]> nobody before c. 2014 overrode Content-Type based on values of first three octets.
  368. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> JoWie: yeah the situation "if i wanted to verify that the test actually tests what the spec specifies, it would take a lot of effort" is something we should try harder to make the test suite avoid. At a minimum, the test suite should not cause implementors to waste time. It should rather *save* time for implementors.
  369. # [21:06] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: here is a 2005 document proving you wrong: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/How_Mozilla_determines_MIME_Types
  370. # [21:06] <qq[IrcCity]> this was an (incorrect) generalization of HTML6 specs to all text/*.
  371. # [21:06] <qq[IrcCity]> developers made a mistake.
  372. # [21:06] <qq[IrcCity]> * HTML5
  373. # [21:07] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic: when Firefox 11 was issued?
  374. # [21:07] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: 2012
  375. # [21:07] <qq[IrcCity]> again, I tested my cases. at least one with toxic UTF-16LE.
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  377. # [21:07] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: Firefox 11 was released about 2 months before the mimesniff spec existed
  378. # [21:08] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: and Firefox (and IE, per the document) have been sniffing text/plain since at least 2005.
  379. # [21:08] <JoWie> MikeSmith: yea that would be much better.
  380. # [21:08] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic: they didn’t try to override Content-Type without a strong pretext.
  381. # [21:09] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@78.245.148.181)
  382. # [21:09] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: that is just false, according to the linked document
  383. # [21:09] <MikeSmith> qq[IrcCity]: when you make comments like "did anybody in WHATWG or Mozilla asked how many text/plain pages broke when annevk deployed his sniffer" you reveal some serious basic misunderstandings about cause-and-effect around browser implementations of this stuff. And then you don't listen when one of us takes time (as Domenic is doing now) to try to (re)explain some of what you're not understanding about
  384. # [21:09] <MikeSmith> it.
  385. # [21:09] <Domenic> qq[IrcCity]: if you are not going to accept evidence of fact, and cling to this fantasy version of history where people actually implemented HTTP perfectly (nobody did), I guess I'm done here.
  386. # [21:10] <Domenic> Parting words: stop trying to do things backward. First, fix all the pages on the internet that depend on text/plain sniffing working. Then, convince browser vendors to change to the algorithm you prefer, instead of the algorithm they have been using since 2005 (or longer; that is just the document last revision date). Finally, ask to change the spec.
  387. # [21:10] <JoWie> MikeSmith: So far my/our procedure for testing is #1 Write tests with for the new feature (using a coverage tool). #2 Check if WPT agrees or goto #1
  388. # [21:10] <JoWie> so we have a lot of local test which should be WPT
  389. # [21:10] <JoWie> tests
  390. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> qq[IrcCity]: as annevk pointed out earlier you seem to want some answer that you're not hearing and you're not going to hear because it conflicts with reality. Nobody is claiming that the way things work for this now are the ideal; instead they're just the reality and we did not make that reality 2 years ago or whatever, and we are not in a position to change it. Nobody is in a position to change it, and
  391. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> it's not likely to ever change (for reasons that multiple people have pointed out to you).
  392. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> JoWie: yeah
  393. # [21:13] <MikeSmith> JoWie: I think that is a common pattern for anybody implementing
  394. # [21:15] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  395. # [21:15] <MikeSmith> maybe Mozilla has a workflow around that iteration and upstreaming that could be repurposed by other implementors/projects
  396. # [21:18] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  397. # [21:18] <MikeSmith> I know jgraham has put a lot of work into helping create a workflow within Mozilla that feeds into wpt (and that feeds wpt into Mozilla CI)
  398. # [21:18] <qq[IrcCity]> Domenic: with browsers’ habits as of 2005, an end user had a possibility to override encoding that browser determined (via either HTTP/1.1 or sniffing). now an end user can’t do anything in Mozilla, Google Chrome, MS IE, and (reportedly) Safari.
  399. # [21:18] <qq[IrcCity]> can’t do anything in the toxic BOM condition.
  400. # [21:19] <qq[IrcCity]> it’s even worse than simply breaking compaticility.
  401. # [21:19] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@76-220-22-18.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  402. # [21:21] <JoWie> it would be great if all the local tests of all the browsers would be in WPT, i can imagine it would help compatibility issues a lot
  403. # [21:22] <qq[IrcCity]> what is WPT?
  404. # [21:24] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
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  406. # [21:29] <astearns> qq[IrcCity]: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
  407. # [21:29] <MikeSmith> JoWie: yeah a goal would be to have browser projects change a bit such that the were developing tests in such a way that those compatibility issues were greatly reduced
  408. # [21:30] <MikeSmith> IE/Edge does not support document.execCommand('copy') yet, right?
  409. # [21:33] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.179.176.getinternet.no)
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  412. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> shit all of http://www.quirksmode.org/ is gone
  413. # [21:36] <MikeSmith> I guess ppk forgot to renew the domain registration or something
  414. # [21:37] <MikeSmith> seems to have disappeared within the last 3 weeks
  415. # [21:42] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  416. # [21:42] <estellevw> MikeSmith quirksmode is up for me.
  417. # [21:45] <MikeSmith> estellevw: does it show what it should show or does it show some domain-parking thing?
  418. # [21:46] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  419. # [21:46] <estellevw> i can get to this page http://www.quirksmode.org/compatibility.html from the home page
  420. # [21:46] <estellevw> looks totally normal
  421. # [21:46] <MikeSmith> weird
  422. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> estellevw: you sure you're not looking at cached copy?
  423. # [21:47] <estellevw> i never go to quirksmode
  424. # [21:47] <estellevw> so it’s not cached locally
  425. # [21:47] <qq[IrcCity]> MikeSmith: no problems with http://www.quirksmode.org/ as well.
  426. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> ok, very odd
  427. # [21:49] <Sebmaster> This.... Is interesting, I get a parking page too
  428. # [21:49] <qq[IrcCity]> different NSes?
  429. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> yeah whois says "Registrant Name:Pending Renewal or Deletion"
  430. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> so maybe DNS hasn't propogated fully or something
  431. # [21:50] <qq[IrcCity]> it’s plausible.
  432. # [21:51] <qq[IrcCity]> is the person in charge alerted?
  433. # [21:51] <estellevw> their whois reads Tech Name:Pending Renewal or Deletion
  434. # [21:52] <estellevw> but their expiry date is 2016-05-22
  435. # [21:52] <estellevw> so something weird is up
  436. # [21:53] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  437. # [21:54] <estellevw> i tweeted at him. Not sure if that’s the best way to go
  438. # [21:55] * Joins: seventh (seventh@128.90.33.61)
  439. # [21:56] <MikeSmith> ah I just pinged ppk as well https://twitter.com/sideshowbarker/status/648224531610402816
  440. # [21:57] <qq[IrcCity]> MikeSmith: www.quirksmode.org has address 194.109.6.98, so you may override your DNS “doing the best thing for end users”™
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  443. # [21:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  444. # [21:58] <MikeSmith> thanks yeah
  445. # [21:58] <MikeSmith> estellevw: btw did you tweet recently about being on the job market (so I can retweet)
  446. # [21:59] <estellevw> i didn’t tweet it since my boss follows me, but you can tweet it ;)
  447. # [22:01] <MikeSmith> k
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  457. # [22:32] <jgraham> MikeSmith, Domenic: I think some of the generative tests have given us incredible bang-for-buck. For example hand-writing all the idlharness.js tests would be tedious makework that people would likely do in a much more halfassed way than the current implementation (even allowing that the implementation could use updating for missing features in WebIDL). So I reject the idea that those kinds of tests are a bad idea (and, with my "implementor" hat on,
  458. # [22:32] <jgraham> ... them as "mostly useless")
  459. # [22:33] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  460. # [22:33] <jgraham> I agree that there are tradeoffs, and I certainly see the appeal of very simple tests too.
  461. # [22:33] <jgraham> As or upstreaming tests, the workflow is all open-source of course.
  462. # [22:34] <jgraham> It's part of wptrunner.
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  470. # [22:55] <JoWie> they were just "mostly useless" for my specific issue
  471. # [22:55] * Joins: zecho (~zecho@67-247-17-199.northern.mnscu.edu)
  472. # [22:55] <JoWie> not in general
  473. # [22:56] <JoWie> i am not against generative tests in itself. just that some of them give very little issue when things fail
  474. # [22:56] <JoWie> and it takes a lot of effort to recreate the state they are testing
  475. # [22:57] <JoWie> writing them in a different way would go a long way into solving that
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  481. # [23:15] <jgraham> JoWie: Yes, I entirely agree that's one of the tradeoffs. Certainly the same coverage with simpler-to-debug tests would be good.
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  488. # [23:39] <qq[IrcCity]> for several days I blamed WHATWG for adding subtle bugs to browsers. but when examined (in mind) my own code of CGI application that converts C string escape codes to octets about to show in a codepage, found a subtle bug in processing 1- and 2-digits octals. It’s ironical.
  489. # Session Close: Mon Sep 28 00:00:01 2015

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