/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-09-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 30 00:00:01 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  35. # Session Close: Wed Sep 30 01:31:37 2015
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  37. # Session Start: Wed Sep 30 01:31:37 2015
  38. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  42. # [01:32] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  43. # [01:32] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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  146. # [07:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: FirefoxNightly
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  149. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah already running Nightly too
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  171. # [08:09] <mkwst> MikeSmith: File a bug at https://crbug.com/new and ping me the ID?
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  208. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> Remember when Microsoft would never submit feedback unless we'd publish a fork at w3c? https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/210#issuecomment-144211444
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  211. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> mkwst: seems it's https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=537360
  212. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> mkwst: chatted with scottmg about it a bit a few hours earlier
  213. # [09:57] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Does https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=537437 help? e.g. make sure that chrome://flags/#enable-javascript-harmony is disabled?
  214. # [09:57] * mkwst turns #whatwg into a Chrome support channel.
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  217. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> heh
  218. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> yeah I
  219. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> I'm posting a comment there now
  220. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> the problem in fact goes away if I disable chrome://flags/#enable-javascript-harmony
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  225. # [10:07] <mkwst> Wunderbar! Solved! /me closes the bug
  226. # [10:10] <mkwst> The V8 folks sit right behind me. I'll poke them.
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  237. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> mkwst: cheers
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  263. # [12:31] <Vritika> Hello!..., I am Vritika Soni. I am interested in Outreach Program(Outreachy). I found Mozilla organization and I would like to work on its project. I am a newbie so I need guidance in this program.
  264. # [12:33] * Parts: Vritika (~hacker@101.57.10.84)
  265. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> Alright, first lesson: stay connected to IRC until someone answers your question
  266. # [12:36] <ondras_> :-)
  267. # [12:36] * ondras_ is now known as ondras
  268. # [12:36] <jgraham> Or at least until someone *reads* your question
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  270. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> mkwst: is much happening with Entry Point Regulation since last year?
  271. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> anybody working on implementing it other than the extension that was developed?
  272. # [12:51] <mkwst> MikeSmith: We published a draft in June (http://www.w3.org/TR/epr/).
  273. # [12:51] <mkwst> MikeSmith: We haven't prioritized it in Chrome, but I know Google's infrastructure security team wants it.
  274. # [12:52] <mkwst> MikeSmith: It will bubble back up in Q1, probably. Last I heard, David was working on a Service Worker-based polyfill.
  275. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> mkwst: OK, thanks
  276. # [12:55] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Why do you ask? :)
  277. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> just showed up on my github radar due to Wendy creating a new repo for it
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  279. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> and then when I saw the notification I recalled that I hadn't heard much more about since the time when David introduced it last year or so
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  281. # [13:04] <mkwst> MikeSmith: Ah. Right. I'm splitting webappsec into a bajillion repositories. No normative change. :)
  282. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> mkwst: coolーyeah, I support the move to multiple repos 🍻
  283. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> *decision to move to multiple repos
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  291. # [13:53] <annevk> https://www.google.com/#q=spec.whatwg.org Where does Google gets it weird metadata from?
  292. # [13:53] <annevk> "XHR spec"
  293. # [13:54] <annevk> "WhatWG"
  294. # [13:54] <annevk> "WHATWG: Living HTML - HTML Standard"
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  335. # [16:07] <ondras> annevk: please, is space allowed in path of <img src="... ..." /> ?
  336. # [16:07] <ondras> (src being http://stuff)
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  338. # [16:07] <annevk> ondras: spaces are not allowed in URLs
  339. # [16:08] <ondras> annevk: okay, also řšž are to be percent-encoded even inside a quoted src attribute?
  340. # [16:08] <ondras> (percent-encoded utf-8 bytes, more precisely)
  341. # [16:10] <annevk> ondras: no you can use those
  342. # [16:10] <annevk> ondras: just make sure everything is utf-8
  343. # [16:10] <annevk> ondras: and expect percent-encoded bytes in JavaScript and on the server
  344. # [16:12] <ondras> annevk: okay, interesting. Firefox apparently silently converts space to %20 when parsing the img src
  345. # [16:12] <ondras> hm, other browsers as well
  346. # [16:18] <annevk> ondras: sure, everyone does that
  347. # [16:18] <annevk> ondras: also mandated by the URL standard :-)
  348. # [16:19] <annevk> ondras: it's just a conformance error since it makes the URL less portable
  349. # [16:22] <annevk> The amount of confusion around SOP is too damn high
  350. # [16:22] <annevk> Latest victim https://twitter.com/aerotwist/status/649214802305417216
  351. # [16:22] <annevk> Which was reviewed by mkwst and several others of Chrome security no less
  352. # [16:23] <mkwst> Hrm? I think you might have misunderstood hjs point.
  353. # [16:23] <mkwst> He wants to access insecure podcast data from a secure page. He can't.
  354. # [16:24] <mkwst> He wants to access cross-origin podcast data from podcasters who don't serve CORS headers. He can't.
  355. # [16:24] <mkwst> A proxy would allow him to do so, but he outlines some reasons that proxies are a bad idea.
  356. # [16:25] * Parts: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@ptr-2hj4tblvksdop33iomqr9o97k.ip6.access.telenet.be) ("Leaving")
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  358. # [16:25] <mkwst> He's bummed that a combination of SOP and MIX (both of which he suggests are good in and of themselves) stop him from building the thing he wants to build without a proxy. *shrug*
  359. # [16:25] <Ms2ger> I don't want him to access my private podcasts
  360. # [16:25] <annevk> mkwst: he also says that a proxy shouldn't have access without CORS
  361. # [16:25] <annevk> mkwst: which is just wrong
  362. # [16:26] <annevk> mkwst: perhaps you didn't read the “How About a Big Proxy?” section?
  363. # [16:26] <mkwst> annevk: If he said that, I missed it when I talked with him.
  364. # [16:26] <annevk> mkwst: I mean I understand this problem
  365. # [16:26] <annevk> mkwst: I wrote about it
  366. # [16:26] <annevk> mkwst: I just don't understand the assertion about proxies and CORS
  367. # [16:27] <mkwst> annevk: Yes. I agree with you that "if the resource is delivered over HTTPS and without the CORS header, the proxy won’t be able to access it on behalf of the client" seems wrong.
  368. # [16:27] <mkwst> annevk: I don't see that as the crux of the article. :)
  369. # [16:28] <annevk> mkwst: I mean the rest of the article was already known
  370. # [16:28] <annevk> mkwst: and this new assertion is false
  371. # [16:28] <annevk> mkwst: hopefully it gets more folks to think about the problem
  372. # [16:28] <mkwst> *shrug* I don't see the new assertion as the important part. :)
  373. # [16:28] <annevk> mkwst: and hopefully he'll clarify that statement
  374. # [16:34] <jochen__> annevk: is there something like a 'loading principal' and 'triggering principal' in spec language?
  375. # [16:35] <jochen__> annevk: apparently these are concepts in firefox
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  377. # [16:41] <annevk> jochen__: I think request's client is somewhat close to triggering
  378. # [16:42] <annevk> jochen__: not sure about loading
  379. # [16:42] <annevk> jochen__: I haven't really found a need for them
  380. # [16:42] <jochen__> hum
  381. # [16:42] <jochen__> so I'm asking because the referrer thing
  382. # [16:42] <jochen__> if a document includes a cross origin css file that in turn references an image
  383. # [16:43] <jochen__> both chrome and firefox will use the css file's url as basis for the referrer for the load of the image
  384. # [16:43] <annevk> jochen__: Gecko has some stuff they expose through those just for extensions and privileged code that would be hard to match, but we don't write specs for those
  385. # [16:43] <jochen__> now the question is what kind of term can I use to describe this situation in the referrer spec short of adding an exception for css documents?
  386. # [16:43] <annevk> jochen__: the way that should work is that CSS should get its Fetch act together and define the referrer for their fetches
  387. # [16:44] <annevk> jochen__: when they define the referrer, they can just set it to the URL of the CSS resource if it's an external resource and leave it as "client" when it's inline
  388. # [16:44] <annevk> jochen__: I guess you could add a warning that CSS (and SVG) haven't defined Fetch integration yet
  389. # [16:44] <annevk> jochen__: numerous things are therefore unclear
  390. # [16:45] <jochen__> so the referrer spec always uses the current 'incumbent settings object' as source for the referrer
  391. # [16:45] <jochen__> would that be the svg document once they got this sorted out?
  392. # [16:45] <annevk> jochen__: the referrer spec should use request's client, no?
  393. # [16:45] <annevk> jochen__: for SVG documents, yeah, it'll be the same as HTML documents
  394. # [16:46] <annevk> jochen__: and SVG images cannot fetch external resources so don't matter
  395. # [16:46] <jochen__> ehrm, i meant css
  396. # [16:46] <jochen__> i guess i'll just add an explicit section CSS documents
  397. # [16:47] <annevk> jochen__: for CSS what happens is that CSS sets referrer to a URL
  398. # [16:47] <annevk> jochen__: so you get an explicit URL that you then modify as you see fit
  399. # [16:47] <annevk> jochen__: no settings objects involved
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  402. # [16:52] <jochen__> well, somewhere the url has to come from
  403. # [16:52] <jochen__> at least in chrome it comes from the css parser context
  404. # [16:52] <jochen__> which in turn gets it from some document
  405. # [16:52] <annevk> jochen__: I see
  406. # [16:53] <annevk> jochen__: well yes, some document fetches a CSS resource, then feeds that response to CSS along with sufficient other data, CSS then should do the rest, e.g., take the url from the response and use that as base URL and referrer
  407. # [16:54] <jochen__> is there a spec text for that?
  408. # [16:54] <annevk> jochen__: see above where I mentioned that CSS does not really have its act together
  409. # [16:54] <jochen__> well, they don't use fetch
  410. # [16:54] <jochen__> but there should be something that says how to load css images and fonts, no?
  411. # [16:55] <annevk> They don't really use anything, but if you were to take that literally CSS wouldn't use service workers either, etc.
  412. # [16:55] <annevk> CSS of course uses something, and everyone knows it's Fetch, it's just not written down
  413. # [16:55] <annevk> So theoretically a ton of stuff breaks and the theory should really be fixed
  414. # [16:55] <annevk> But in practice everyone has managed to deal
  415. # [16:56] <jochen__> sooo
  416. # [16:56] <jochen__> i'll add some text to the referrer spec that says "css should make sure it uses the referrer policy from whereever it felt like getting the referrer from in the first place"
  417. # [16:58] <annevk> It seems very reasonable to add a warning or even try to explain how it should work
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  420. # [17:24] <Domenic> annevk: did you start https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/210 yet or shall I
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  422. # [17:26] <parul> Hello
  423. # [17:28] <parul> i am interested in mozilla "visual design with research data" project.please inform me the irc channel for it.
  424. # [17:29] <parul> so I will start contributing for it.
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  426. # [17:35] <annevk> Domenic: I haven't
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  428. # [17:35] <Domenic> annevk: k, taking it
  429. # [17:35] <annevk> Domenic: I've been meaning to do some more Fetch stuff, but I keep getting distracted
  430. # [17:36] <annevk> parul: hey, I'm not familiar with that project
  431. # [17:36] <Domenic> annevk: do more URL stuff!
  432. # [17:36] <annevk> parul: do you know who's responsible?
  433. # [17:37] <parul> annevk: no I don't know who is the mentor of this project
  434. # [17:37] <annevk> parul: from the wiki page it seems like you want to ping ilana on irc.mozilla.org
  435. # [17:38] <annevk> parul: assuming you were asking about https://wiki.mozilla.org/Outreachy/2016/December_to_March#Visual_Design_with_Research_Data
  436. # [17:38] <parul> annevk:I get the info of this project from this link https://wiki.mozilla.org/Outreachy/2016/December_to_March
  437. # [17:39] <annevk> parul: yeah, this IRC channel is only for "Contribute to the HTML Standard!"
  438. # [17:39] <annevk> (from those projects, anyway)
  439. # [17:39] <parul> annevk: irc channels,mentors and the mailing list is not mention there.
  440. # [17:40] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, I've blocked on that since the base URL thing is still a bit unclear
  441. # [17:40] <annevk> Domenic: I guess I should update some issue
  442. # [17:40] <annevk> parul: it says "Mentor: Ilana Segall", no?
  443. # [17:41] <annevk> parul: and if you click that name an IRC nickname is suggested, and I can tell that person is active on irc.mozilla.org
  444. # [17:42] <parul> annevk: well fine, sorry my mistake
  445. # [17:42] <annevk> parul: no worries, happy to help
  446. # [17:43] <parul> annevk: okey
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  450. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic: in particular, I was thinking that a base URL change thingie which is needed for :visited would help
  451. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic: but then I realized it wouldn't do any good for elements not currently in the document
  452. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic: so I guess we still need to define the base URL updating on the getter thingie...
  453. # [17:51] <annevk> Domenic: but also have this base URL change thing...
  454. # [17:51] <Domenic> annevk: yeah, seems likely... :-/
  455. # [17:51] <annevk> Domenic: or would it be better to just have the base URL change thing, but somehow iterate over all elements whose node document is the document
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  457. # [17:52] <Domenic> annevk: I think doing the lazy thing mostly, and having the base URL change thing be a special thing for CSS, makes a lot of sense. matches implementations, and makes the weird thing special-cased.
  458. # [17:52] <annevk> Domenic: I doubt that matches Gecko
  459. # [17:52] <annevk> Domenic: and it's not a big bone for custom elements either
  460. # [17:52] <Domenic> annevk: really? it seems like the only sane implementation strategy.
  461. # [17:53] <annevk> Domenic: because it's impossible to notify elements not in a document?
  462. # [17:54] <Domenic> annevk: not impossible, but a lot more work to keep track of them all, and slower (although I guess changing base URLs should not happen that often).
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  464. # [17:54] <Domenic> annevk: and if everything else is lazy (because get the input wants to happen lazily), it only makes sense to do the same for base
  465. # [17:55] <annevk> Domenic: I guess I'm somewhat convinced with the lazy approach since base URL changes in general are just a really bad idea
  466. # [17:58] <annevk> Domenic: thanks for reminding me and talking through this, needed that
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  469. # [18:02] <Domenic> :)
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  492. # [18:42] <annevk> HTML has 121 closed PRs already
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  494. # [18:42] <annevk> Is that about 4 a day or am I misrepresenting when we started?
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  496. # [18:50] <zcorpan> philipj: i think bugzilla bugs should be RESOLVED MOVED when there's a PR
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  501. # [18:59] <Domenic> annevk: looks like we started about August 26-27
  502. # [18:59] <Domenic> so... yeah
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  504. # [19:08] <zcorpan> time for a new REC?
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  537. # [20:58] <wanderview> cool to see edge bugs referenced in whatwg github issues... if only they were links
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  541. # [21:02] <Domenic> baby steps ^_^
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  543. # [21:03] <Domenic> grrr, why didn't i write the streams tests in web-platform-tests format the first time around...
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  546. # [21:04] <Domenic> do people know the best pattern for a test that should run the same in both workers and window?
  547. # [21:05] <Domenic> Maybe it is something like this https://github.com/domenic/unhandled-rejections-browser-spec/blob/master/tests/promise-rejection-events.html
  548. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Hah, I remember people questioning why Opera bugs occasionally got referenced, given the lack of access.
  549. # [21:06] <gsnedders> Domenic: that's more or less what i'd suggest
  550. # [21:06] <Domenic> gsnedders: would be sweet if I could avoid generating that .html file manually for each test, somehow.
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  553. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Domenic: too quickly gets into magic, IMO
  554. # [21:08] <Domenic> meh, don't really know
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  564. # [21:15] <Domenic> gsnedders: so this service_worker_test seems to be a blink-specific thing... any thoughts on how I should test in service workers?
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  566. # [21:16] <wanderview> Domenic: I think best worker/window approach is to make a .js file that gets run in both cases... in worker context you make a shim for asserts that proxies back to main thread
  567. # [21:17] <wanderview> not sure that has been done yet for wpt anywhere yet
  568. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Domenic: No.
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  570. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Domenic: I know next to nothing about service workers :)
  571. # [21:18] <wanderview> Domenic: service_worker_test() should be in upstream wpt
  572. # [21:18] <Domenic> Ah, I found it, yeah. https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/e5e8fb9ebc4d5b2220abff5679fa0781c01f2c05/service-workers/service-workers/resources/test-helpers.js
  573. # [21:18] <wanderview> yea
  574. # [21:19] <wanderview> Domenic: one complaint we have about a lot of the current wpt tests that involve workers... they tend to be all or nothing... not broken up into separate test cases so we can't mark the one thing we don't implement yet as EXPECTED_FAIL
  575. # [21:20] <wanderview> Domenic: thanks for writing wpt tests, though
  576. # [21:20] <Domenic> wanderview: I plan to write lots of test cases in each file, then use a .html file that runs that file in all four types of workers...
  577. # [21:20] <Domenic> wanderview: will get your review
  578. # [21:20] <wanderview> cool
  579. # [21:20] <wanderview> r+
  580. # [21:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: the way <input type> defaulting works is extremely common among most (if not all) enumerated attributes
  581. # [21:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: if custom elements would not match that they would be weird
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  583. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> annevk: I don't think it's a good idea for custom elements to match, honestly. enum properties work differently, CSS properties work differently, etc.
  584. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> enum attributes are just weird, and matching the platform as we add new ones to HTML is fine, but I would not match that in a custom element.
  585. # [21:23] <annevk> I totally would. Changing the attribute is actually what's completely alien
  586. # [21:24] <annevk> Parsing the attribute and based on that potentially changing the default state is much more logical
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  589. # [21:31] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: html (and xml languages too) accept any value for attributes generally
  590. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> There's no way for CSS to expose a *generic* mechanism addressing the issue, tho. At best it can do something host-language specific, so that browsers hide the complexity of the big selector in their selector matching code instead.
  591. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Sure. But there's nothing requiring the attribute to *stay* the value it's set to, in the presence of JS.
  592. # [21:34] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: maybe so, but JS does not need to be involved for this problem to appear, so it's a bit moot point :-)
  593. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> Right, the problem is that you can't define what set of keywords an enumerated attribute accepts. I'm saying that, in the presence of JS, you can fix that (and imo should for your custom elements).
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  595. # [21:37] <zcorpan> :input-type(newtype) would also let you style the control differently only in UAs that support "newtype"
  596. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah. It's just a specialized "only for <input type>" mechanism.
  597. # [21:39] * zcorpan awaits csswg members to Genericalize it so it can apply to Other Host Languages as well
  598. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> Like I just said, we can't.
  599. # [21:45] * TabAtkins is unsure at what level of sarcasm zcorpan is operating.
  600. # [21:46] <zcorpan> i can include the end tag for you: </sarcasm>
  601. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> What I meant is that <input type> is not the only enumerated attribute with this behavior, and probably not the only enumerated attribute that wants to have UA-default styles based on itself.
  602. # [21:49] <tantek> The SARCASM Host Language needs no end tag.
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  604. # [21:51] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I'm struggle to infer the open tag
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  606. # [21:51] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i can write you a DTD if you send me chocolate
  607. # [21:54] <gsnedders> zcorpan: hah, you admit British chocolate is better? ;P
  608. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: And without some form of "generic-ness", then specifying the pseudo-class is just moving the complexity from the UA stylesheet to the UA's selector definition. It doesn't improve the brittleness/verbosity; either way you have a list of values that need to be maintained.
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  610. # [21:55] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: <button type>, <menu type>... i think there's not much more in html that makes sense to style differently based on an enum attribute
  611. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> The benefits to authors are that (a) they can then use rando values in their own page and still match them as :input-type(text), which seems low value, and (b) they can use new types and match them with :input-type(new) if they're supported (but if they're not, they'll get caught by :input-type(text), so I'm unsure in practice of the usefulness of that).
  612. # [21:56] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i'll know it when i get it :-)
  613. # [21:56] <gsnedders> zcorpan: :)
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  616. # [21:58] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: it seems useful to me to have :input-type(text) match unsupported types. why would you not want to style them as other regular text fields, assuming you don't polyfill them to something else?
  617. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> I dunno!
  618. # [21:59] <JonathanNeal> What’s this? :input(text) selector?
  619. # [21:59] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: CSS7!!
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  621. # [22:00] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:232:553d:924c:b54f:b414)
  622. # [22:00] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/CAAWBYDCzcZ4dpNw3gjWnYrTOqN2UbSCKcYoGG7RSytHju8moqw@mail.gmail.com>
  623. # [22:00] <JonathanNeal> Neat.
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  625. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: (Note that, as I said in the email, I'm not opposed to :input-type(), I just don't currently believe this problem is sufficiently worthwhile to address with new syntax.)
  626. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> Neat. Like :input(text) => input:not([type]), input[type="text"] ?
  627. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Also input:not([type=password]):not([type=tel])...
  628. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Because <input type=foo> is a text input.
  629. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> Rather, it's explictly equivalent to `input:not([type]), input[type]:not([type=password])...`
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  631. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> As an idle thought, a genericization would probably look like a switch statement...
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  636. # [22:12] <Domenic> I am not really opposed to input:not([type=password i]):.......
  637. # [22:12] <Domenic> it's ugly but for UA stylesheets it should be fine
  638. # [22:13] <Domenic> it's not like we're going to add new input types soon
  639. # [22:15] <gsnedders> case insensitive?
  640. # [22:15] <Domenic> yes, <input type="PASSWORD"> is still a password
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  645. # [22:32] <tobie> TabAtkins: does Bikeshed have a mechanism to include the content of external resources similar to: https://www.w3.org/respec/ref.html#data-include ?
  646. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> Not currently.
  647. # [22:32] <tobie> How could you even process that information so quickly?
  648. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> ???
  649. # [22:33] <tobie> !!!
  650. # [22:34] * tobie had a long day.
  651. # [22:34] <tobie> Is this somehow planned?
  652. # [22:34] <tobie> Easy/hard given the current architecture?
  653. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> It's not currently in my plans, but I'm not opposed. Feel free to file an issue on me for it. I'd appreciate some pointers to existing usage of this in ReSpec.
  654. # [22:35] <tobie> I'm using it to include code samples of live apps.
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  659. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> tobie: Why not include it inline?
  660. # [22:41] <JonathanNeal> Tangent: [type=password i], in today CSS does this work, are attribute selectors even case-sensitive?
  661. # [22:43] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  662. # [22:43] <tobie> I have the apps and use case doc in the same repo, like that I don't have any copy-pasting to do.
  663. # [22:44] <tobie> Added the links to https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/496
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  665. # [22:47] <robertkowalski> heya
  666. # [22:48] <robertkowalski> i want to start to work on a spec for console.log and friends
  667. # [22:48] <Domenic> \o/
  668. # [22:49] <robertkowalski> but before i start i was wondering if i need to use a special kind of test framework / test runner
  669. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Didn't somebody already start on that?
  670. # [22:49] <Domenic> TabAtkins: yep, and stall
  671. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Right. Maybe it can be reused rather than starting from scratch.
  672. # [22:49] <Domenic> robertkowalski: web-platform-tests are the best tests: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
  673. # [22:50] <Domenic> robertkowalski: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
  674. # [22:50] <robertkowalski> cool thank you Domenic
  675. # [22:52] <tobie> iirc MikeSmith had a draft of the console API in the Browser Testing and Tools WG
  676. # [22:53] <tobie> It's mentioned in the charter but can't seem to find it online.
  677. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> tobie: That makes sense.
  678. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> (re: using examples in both explainer and spec)
  679. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> File an issue on me?
  680. # [22:54] <tobie> https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/496
  681. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> danke
  682. # [22:55] * Joins: benwerd (~benwerd@67.180.159.135)
  683. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> philipj (or anybody) about the 0.03% threshold of usage-counter data for blink intent-to-deprecate features, what does that work out as far as number of sites? (I mean the number within whatever sample the usage-counter data is collected from)
  684. # [22:57] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@c-73-231-198-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  685. # [22:58] <tobie> robertkowalski: found this: http://sideshowbarker.github.io/console-spec/
  686. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> and it is sites, right? not URLs/documents
  687. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> yeah that doc is quite imcomplete
  688. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> the best resource for console still remains http://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Console_API
  689. # [22:58] <philipj> MikeSmith: Chrome's data is percentage of page views, so it can't be compared with number of sites in a corpus like httparchive
  690. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> philipj: ah OK, makes sense
  691. # [22:59] <philipj> MikeSmith: it's quite likely that there are some counters with high usage only due to youtube.com or similar
  692. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> ah
  693. # [23:00] <philipj> zcorpan: oh, right, should I fix the two that I've closed?
  694. # [23:00] <zcorpan> philipj: naw
  695. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> tobie: robertkowalski https://github.com/DeveloperToolsWG/console-object/blob/master/api.md is good
  696. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> and https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Console
  697. # [23:06] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@207.173.20.37)
  698. # [23:07] <tobie> TabAtkins: I'm having a hard time getting em-dashes to work. Shouldn't https://github.com/w3c/sensors/blob/gh-pages/index.bs#L119 so it?
  699. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Assuming there's no spaces at the ends of those lines, yes, it should.
  700. # [23:08] <tobie> there isn't.
  701. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Hmmm, it is indeed not working. Will look.
  702. # [23:10] <tobie> ty
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  704. # [23:11] <tobie> I kind of cargo-culted the boilerplate metadata, so I might be doing something dumb there.
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  707. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> tobie: Nope, it was a dumb thing on my part.
  708. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Accidentally required the following line to start with whitespace for the emdash conversion to happen.
  709. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Just pushed the fix.
  710. # [23:14] <tobie> oh, cool.
  711. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> (My specs tend to indent the text, to make headings more obvious on a quick scan, so i didn't notice the problem.
  712. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> )
  713. # [23:15] <tobie> Yeah, I got used to sticking everything as far left as possible to avoid weird markdown bugs.
  714. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I don't (and won't) implement the "indent means code block" part of Markdown, so feel free to indent.
  715. # [23:16] <tobie> Mind pulling in https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/pull/493 while you're at it?
  716. # [23:17] <tobie> Oh, you're planning to cherry-pick markdown. Sounds fun.
  717. # [23:17] <tobie> CommonMark-- ?
  718. # [23:17] <tobie> :P
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  720. # [23:18] <tobie> TabAtkins: I had added support for that in Respec https://github.com/w3c/respec/blob/develop/js/core/markdown.js#L141-L183
  721. # [23:19] <tobie> But it still acted weird on occasion. Or at least I feared it would.
  722. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Bikeshed's markdown handles HTML nesting properly. Indented code is fundamentally incompatible with that.
  723. # [23:22] <tobie> I'm not sure what you mean by "Bikeshed's markdown handles HTML nesting properly."
  724. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Bikeshed intermixes HTML and Markdown in a sane way, I mean.
  725. # [23:25] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@cpe-74-64-41-253.nyc.res.rr.com)
  726. # [23:25] <tobie> yeah. Regular markdown certainly doesn't.
  727. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Largely because of the historical mistake of indented code blocks. ^_^
  728. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> So yeah, I'm gradually approaching consistency with CommonMark except for that point.
  729. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> (Unsure if I'll ever fully implement CommonMark's multi-line backtick semantics, tho. They require some weird back-and-forth integration between parser levels.)
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  732. # [23:36] <robertkowalski> MikeSmith: oh btw why did you stop working on the console api? was it too boring?
  733. # [23:40] <MikeSmith> robertkowalski: I can't say I ever really put much work into it. I put it together intending that somebody else might pick up work on it
  734. # [23:41] <MikeSmith> but that said it's never been a high priority for me personally
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  736. # [23:41] <MikeSmith> I guess that's true of others as well
  737. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> it's not clear how strong of a need we have for a high level of interoperability around it
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  739. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> the main reason to have a spec is to ensure we get interoperability among implementations
  740. # [23:43] <MikeSmith> and to avoid creating interoperability frustrations for devs
  741. # [23:44] <MikeSmith> I could be wrong but I think console interoperability (or lack of) doesn't seem like a pain point for devs currently
  742. # [23:44] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32874967/html5-image-preloading if you have any insights
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  747. # [23:56] <robertkowalski> MikeSmith: *nod*
  748. # [23:57] <robertkowalski> MikeSmith: maybe i'll pick it up. i like to write those spec tests
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  750. # [23:57] <robertkowalski> i wrote some with another test framework ~1yr ago
  751. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: thanks (would upvote that but I'm out of votes for today until ~1hr or so from now)
  752. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> robertkowalski: if you do pick up work on it I would be glad to help with review and such
  753. # [23:59] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:2c76:6f6c:c560:7873) (Remote host closed the connection)
  754. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> but note that terinjokes has been working on something too from time to time
  755. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> not sure where he's at with it currently but maybe y'all could collaborate
  756. # Session Close: Thu Oct 01 00:00:00 2015

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