/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 01 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> robertkowalski: https://github.com/terinjokes/console-spec
  4. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> http://terinjokes.github.io/console-spec/
  5. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> btw how do we test the console object?
  6. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> given that it's not exposed to web content
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  8. # [00:03] <robertkowalski> in node we could listen on stdout / stderr i guess and regarding browsers i was hoping that http://testthewebforward.org/ would support it in some way
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  11. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> robertkowalski: yeah the testharness for testtwf runs in-browser strictly in JS, so it has no way to get to console output afaict
  12. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> but yeah I had not been thinking about the node.js/io.js context
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  14. # [00:12] <jgraham> Yeah, you can't test the console method in a cross browser way afaik
  15. # [00:13] <jgraham> Unless we start exposing test-only APIs
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  18. # [00:13] <jgraham> Which has been sugggested, but I am somewhat sceptical about
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  23. # [00:16] <robertkowalski> could we implement the tests in node and browser vendors could port it into their testsuites?
  24. # [00:16] <robertkowalski> feels a bit uncool, but better than nothing i guess
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  26. # [00:17] <gsnedders> BTW, if anyone has any opinions on what needs sorted out with the CSS testsuite, prod me
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  28. # [00:22] <jgraham> robertkowalski: I don't see how node helps you here
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  32. # [00:28] <robertkowalski> jgraham: build the reference testsuite or even reference implementation in node
  33. # [00:29] <robertkowalski> jgraham: and hoping others will follow / start helping to make testing in browsers easier :)
  34. # [00:30] <robertkowalski> <- specs newbie
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  39. # [00:43] <gsnedders> robertkowalski: and how do you know the reference implementation is right?
  40. # [00:43] <Domenic> robertkowalski: in terms of web tests the most important test will be the stuff that can be observed from scripts (and thus cause potential interop problems)
  41. # [00:43] <Domenic> robertkowalski: so e.g. what methods exist on console, and when or if they ever throw errors
  42. # [00:44] <Domenic> robertkowalski: the "side effect" of logging to console is less important to test (but, would be nice for devs, so that they know they can use e.g. %s across all browsers and get useful results.)
  43. # [00:47] <jgraham> Right so there is some useful stuff you can test
  44. # [00:48] <jgraham> But without any way to read back the console it's unclear that an implementation like console = {log: function(data){}} wouldn't pass most tests
  45. # [00:53] <Domenic> good enough for web compat
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  48. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, just need a bunch of manual tests unfortunatekly.
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  74. # [03:13] <botie> zcorpan_, at 2015-09-14 16:21 UTC, MikeSmith said: about https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5796 (SVG thing) yeah I've spoken with the commenter and I need to also fix the bug in the checker code
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  176. # [10:51] <philipj> annevk: reviewers wondering why !important on ::background { display: block } in https://codereview.chromium.org/1372413004/
  177. # [11:01] <annevk> philipj: I suspect anything else would lead to some undefined behavior
  178. # [11:01] <annevk> philipj: e.g., is it defined what display-table-row means for a box floating around?
  179. # [11:01] <philipj> annevk: hmm, perhaps, I'm not sure how the backdrop is actually implemented
  180. # [11:01] <tobie> robertkowalski: this is sort of a chicken and egg problem. Implementors want to use the language they're familiar with.
  181. # [11:02] <philipj> I'll link to here and let the reviewers ponder the issue
  182. # [11:03] <annevk> philipj: generally though I'd like to defer to roc when it comes to the styling issues
  183. # [11:03] <tobie> robertkowalski: …argue that they're not getting any help from Web developers, so why would they make the effort of converting everything in a new technology?
  184. # [11:04] <tobie> robertkowalski: arguably, that's circular logic of the same kind as saying you don't need to support browser X as you have no traffic using said browser (because your site doesn't work with it).
  185. # [11:04] <tobie> robertkowalski: but on the other hand, it is very possible that no one is using that browser.
  186. # [11:05] <philipj> annevk: does roc have a GitHub account? I can't find him
  187. # [11:05] <tobie> robertkowalski: if you don't have external data to validate your assumption, you can't make an informed decision.
  188. # [11:05] <annevk> philipj: rocallahan
  189. # [11:06] <tobie> robertkowalski: and thus, we're stuck with python. :)
  190. # [11:06] <philipj> annevk: thanks
  191. # [11:08] <annevk> Updating OS X has been painless thus far \o/
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  213. # [13:20] <annevk> Domenic: writing out all those URL members again is no fun
  214. # [13:21] <annevk> Domenic: also, once they're all written out, we should probably try to deduplicate some, since the repetition of requirements across four features is not great
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  225. # [13:57] <smaug____> annevk: any opinion on whether an API which should work only in top level browsing context and other browsing context from the same domain should be hidden in other contexts
  226. # [13:57] <smaug____> or just no-op
  227. # [13:58] <annevk> smaug____: no-op/throw
  228. # [13:59] <smaug____> k
  229. # [13:59] <smaug____> any particular reason?
  230. # [13:59] <annevk> smaug____: e.g., APIs only allowed in "secure contexts" throw in insecure contexts
  231. # [13:59] <smaug____> I don't have any opinion on this matter :)
  232. # [14:00] <annevk> smaug____: and there might be some difficulty with low-level VM sharing stuff if the APIs we expose differ, but that's all rather theoretical at this point I believe
  233. # [14:01] <smaug____> not sure what sharing that would be about
  234. # [14:01] <smaug____> but in Gecko hiding APIs would be rather trivial
  235. # [14:01] <smaug____> (we do hide plenty of chromejs only APIs from content, and also b2g APIs)
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  243. # [14:41] <annevk> smaug____: yeah I know, but I think at this point we should keep hiding for non-web stuff and have web stuff exposed everywhere
  244. # [14:41] <annevk> smaug____: PortCollection is gone from the specification btw
  245. # [14:42] <smaug____> noticed, thanks
  246. # [14:42] <smaug____> annevk: well, we certainly don't want to expose chromejs stuff
  247. # [14:42] <annevk> right
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  257. # [15:09] <Guest62> hello,
  258. # [15:09] <Guest62> I need to talk with Tab Atkins,
  259. # [15:10] * Guest62 is now known as tscosj
  260. # [15:10] <tscosj> Tab,
  261. # [15:10] <tscosj> Can I talk to you rn?
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  284. # [16:05] <annevk> philipj: apologies for flip-flopping on that super trivial PR
  285. # [16:05] <annevk> philipj: still up to you what you do though
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  287. # [16:07] <philipj> annevk: I'll flip it back then :)
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  315. # [17:22] <smaug____> !seen foolip
  316. # [17:22] <smaug____> hmm, perhaps there isn't any bot here to answer to that
  317. # [17:22] * smaug____ wonders if blink doesn't event warn about /deep/
  318. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> philipj, ^
  319. # [17:24] <smaug____> aha, wrong nick
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  321. # [17:28] <caitp> did the whole "what do we do about cross-origin uses of well-known symbols" thing on public-script-coord ever get definitively resolved?
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  324. # [17:41] <annevk> caitp: no, there's a couple open issues against the HTML standard on defining cross-origin Location and Window objects
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  326. # [17:41] <annevk> caitp: it's something I want to look into if nobody beats me to it, since it seems like a rather important thing to define
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  331. # [17:47] <caitp> I ask because I'm not sure how flexible we need to make this "don't throw if the object needs security checks" thing needs to be
  332. # [17:50] <caitp> like, if it's good enough to just make the value look undefined/not present, or if it's important to know that the value couldn't be retrieved due to a failed access check
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  335. # [18:10] <annevk> caitp: I haven't investigated
  336. # [18:11] <annevk> caitp: from past experience some folks want security errors to throw, others prefer silent failure
  337. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> caitp: I think there's supposed to be a symbol registry, where you can obtain a symbol associated with a string, and they're identical across windows when generated from the sand string?
  338. # [18:18] <caitp> right, but I mean, the spec uses well known symbol hooks, and doesn't care about whether anything is cross origin/whatever
  339. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the spec's "well-known symbols" are identical cross origin.
  340. # [18:19] <caitp> so it's like, 1 option is just pretend cross origin objects don't have the symbol hook at all, and that splits into "the spec'd access won't throw, it will just ignore it, but user accesses to the hook will throw"
  341. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> P sure
  342. # [18:20] <caitp> or another one is "never throw, just treat the symbol hook as undefined for cross origin objects"
  343. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> I wonder who that Guest62 person was?
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  350. # [18:28] <annevk> TabAtkins: sam as tscosj most likely but not sure who that is either
  351. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Oh, I blocked tscosj as some random pming me.
  352. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> How do I unignore?
  353. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Also, who Sam?
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  355. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> Dammit, autocorrect, I meant rando.
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  358. # [18:35] <annevk> TabAtkins: s/sam/same/
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  360. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Ah
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  399. # [20:42] <tobie> TabAtkins: quick bikeshed question: Would need to add a small paragraphe to the conventions section found in the footer. Is there anyway for me to do this simply?
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  401. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> tobie: Need to adjust your footer include.
  402. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> For whatever group you're publishing as.
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  404. # [20:44] <tobie> Mmm. So I can't have custom, per spec conventions, then.
  405. # [20:46] <tobie> :(
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  426. # [21:16] <tobie> I guess I'll just stick the content in a note somewhere.
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  448. # [22:14] <Domenic> tobie: I just hide the conventions boilerplate and add my own section.
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  483. # [23:31] <aleray> hi, how can I replace html entites by their equivalent unicode code point?
  484. # [23:32] <aleray> using htmllib python
  485. # [23:32] <gsnedders> aleray: htmllib or html5lib?
  486. # [23:33] <gsnedders> aleray: and what are you actually trying to do? why do you want to replace them?
  487. # [23:33] <aleray> I'm working on a filter for typography (fixing various spacing/punctuation patterns) and I get chuncked Character tokens because of HTML entities like &nbsp;
  488. # [23:34] <aleray> gsnedders, html5lib, sorry
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  492. # [23:34] <gsnedders> aleray: you probably want to parse the whole thing into a tree and then work from that, tbh
  493. # [23:35] <gsnedders> aleray: the tokenizer alone is probably always never the way to go
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  495. # [23:36] <gsnedders> aleray: basically the tokenizer makes no guarantees, and in some situations won't work correctly without the parser's feedback
  496. # [23:37] <aleray> so I I have "name&thinsp;: value" it seems like the tokens yield are "name" + &nbsp + ": value"
  497. # [23:37] <aleray> gsnedders, here is how I use my filter: http://dpaste.com/1WBAYG6
  498. # [23:38] <gsnedders> the API makes no guarantees as to where character tokens get split up, FWIW
  499. # [23:38] <gsnedders> I'm pretty sure the tokenizer shouldn't return an character reference ever?
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  501. # [23:38] <gsnedders> oh, you're doing this at the serialiser level
  502. # [23:38] <gsnedders> sorry, I thought you meant the tokenizer tokens
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  504. # [23:40] <aleray> gsnedders, my explanations might be confused, sorry.
  505. # [23:40] <gsnedders> aleray: nah, we just have two things called "tokens" and it's really bloody confusing.
  506. # [23:40] <gsnedders> aleray: we should name stuff better, but I don't know what's better :)
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  510. # [23:44] <gsnedders> aleray: um, the filter is getting three character tokens, u'name', u'\u2009', and u': value'. there's no character references there.
  511. # [23:46] <gsnedders> aleray: so that's definitely a bug in html5lib, because it shouldn't be creating adjacent text nodes in the DOM leading to that. the simplest suggestion would be to use etree (which is the default) instead of dom, if you're not wed to the tree format anywhere
  512. # [23:46] <gsnedders> aleray: then with etree you get {u'data': u'name\u2009: value', u'type': u'Characters'} which is what I'd expect?
  513. # [23:47] <gsnedders> aleray: (sorry for being a bit rambly here)
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  515. # [23:49] <aleray> gsnedders, sorry, back
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  517. # [23:50] <aleray> gsnedders, yes, this is exactly what I want
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  519. # [23:50] <aleray> let me try
  520. # [23:52] <gsnedders> aleray: note if anyone touches the DOM you can end up with adjecent text nodes (because they can just append another) and in a few cases the HTML parser creates them (e.g., foo<table>bar</table> creates "foo", followed by "bar", followed by an empty table element)
  521. # [23:52] <gsnedders> aleray: but in that case that's just a bug in html5lib
  522. # [23:53] <aleray> gsnedders, thanks. I switched to etree and that is perfect
  523. # [23:53] <gsnedders> aleray: (etree avoids this because it /can't/ have adjacent text nodes in its data model)
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  525. # [23:53] <aleray> Should this be documented somewhere?
  526. # [23:54] <aleray> I don't remember why I used dom in the first place. Maybe because it was easier to work with…
  527. # [23:54] <gsnedders> I'm filing a bug on this.
  528. # [23:55] <gsnedders> When we finally get round to having decent docs, we should push people more strongly away from dom.
  529. # [23:56] <aleray> gsnedders, let me know when you filled the bug so I can reference to it in my code
  530. # [23:56] <aleray> and just so you know I'm in love with HTML5lib
  531. # [23:57] <gsnedders> https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/208
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  533. # [23:59] <gsnedders> aleray: ^^
  534. # Session Close: Fri Oct 02 00:00:00 2015

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