/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 02 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <aleray> gsnedders, thanks. Reference in my code. Thanks a lot for your help. It turned out to be more simple than I though :)
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  6. # [00:06] <gsnedders> aleray: np, in general dom is just hidious in python
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  58. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32897921/why-does-this-cors-request-to-a-google-drive-sheet-fail-in-firefox-works-in-c
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  74. # [04:22] <zewt> what the holy shit
  75. # [04:22] <zewt> adblock hijacked new window on chrome to show an ad for itself
  76. # [04:23] <zewt> google should kill the extension outright for that level of abuse
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  78. # [04:24] <zewt> time to try ublock
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  138. # [08:54] <zcorpan> jgraham: i nominate cvrebert for push access to web-platform-tests
  139. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: seconded
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  142. # [09:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems like a security bug in Chrome
  143. # [09:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: they're not requiring CORS headers on redirects
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  146. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: oh
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  148. # [09:25] <annevk> I would have thought that would be covered by the testsuite though
  149. # [09:25] <annevk> But perhaps Chrome is not really trying to conform to it
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  152. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: > zcorpan: jgraham: i nominate cvrebert for push access to web-platform-tests
  153. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: > MikeSmith: zcorpan: seconded
  154. # [09:32] <Ms2ger> thirded
  155. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> k
  156. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: so we can either wait to get confirmation from jgraham or one of us can just flip on his push perms now
  157. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> Go for it
  158. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> done
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  168. # [10:30] <mkwst> annevk: Good morning! Would you prefer that I specify `frame-ancestors` as a network error in Fetch, or as a something something for Documents in HTML?
  169. # [10:30] <mkwst> MikeSmith: I think that CORS issue is an artifact of Chrome's HSTS handling.
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  171. # [10:31] <mkwst> MikeSmith: docs.google.com is preloaded in Chrome, so the redirect never really happens.
  172. # [10:32] <annevk> mkwst: I'm not sure
  173. # [10:34] <mkwst> annevk: Me neither. :)
  174. # [10:35] <mkwst> Fetch is appealing, because it seems straightforward and avoids the work necessary to figure out _where_ in HTML to do the check.
  175. # [10:36] <annevk> mkwst: sounds reasonable
  176. # [10:36] <annevk> mkwst: if it's trivial to do in Fetch, just do it there I guess
  177. # [10:36] <mkwst> annevk: I'll type it up and then we can go back and decide it was a bad idea later.
  178. # [10:36] <annevk> mkwst: can always refactor
  179. # [10:36] <annevk> mkwst: either way it needs to behave as a network error
  180. # [10:38] <mkwst> Actually, we have a CSP hook at the bottom of main fetch anyway. I'll just do it there. Ha.
  181. # [10:39] <mkwst> But it might be reasonable to have a check for `x-frame-options` as well?
  182. # [10:39] <mkwst> Hrm.
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  189. # [10:57] <annevk> mkwst: can't CSP also handle x-frame-options?
  190. # [10:57] <annevk> mkwst: seems like the easiest for CSP to just define both headers
  191. # [10:58] <annevk> mkwst: and handle them in the same algorithm
  192. # [10:58] <annevk> mkwst: presumably that's what implementations do too
  193. # [10:59] <mkwst> If only they acted the same.
  194. # [10:59] <mkwst> x-frame-options is a bit broken, as it only checks the top-level origin.
  195. # [10:59] <mkwst> But sure. *shrug* Isn't there an RFC?
  196. # [11:00] <annevk> there is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7034 it seems but that's kind of useless without integration
  197. # [11:00] <annevk> also very verbose...
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  199. # [11:00] <mkwst> Well, let me finish the things I know I need to do before I grab more work. :)
  200. # [11:02] <annevk> if you don't specify it please file an issue on Fetch
  201. # [11:02] <annevk> seems like a shame to not define how that header actually interacts with Fetch
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  219. # [11:34] <mkwst> annevk_: yes. it ought to be defined. if i have time, i'll do it.
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  221. # [11:34] <annevk_> \o/
  222. # [11:34] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
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  227. # [11:58] <yhirano_> annevk_: can you take a look at https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/pull/128?
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  231. # [12:18] <annevk> yhirano_: will do today, sorry
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  233. # [12:24] <yhirano_> annevk: thank you
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  237. # [12:54] <annevk> I think I understand mounir's feelings about reviewing a little better now
  238. # [12:54] <annevk> It's no fun
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  241. # [13:04] <mounir> annevk: tell me more about that :)
  242. # [13:04] <botie> will do
  243. # [13:06] * zcorpan slaps botie
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  248. # [14:09] <annevk> mounir: reviewing PRs to standards is not the most fun thing to do
  249. # [14:10] <annevk> mounir: but it's necessary to grow the set of folks who can write them
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  251. # [14:15] <annevk> Domenic: basically, the problem is that if you assign a blob URL to a number of elements, you want to know which one ends up using it
  252. # [14:16] <annevk> Domenic: if I assign a blob URL to two <a> elements, and it sorta depends which one ends up getting the reference to the blob as to where the user clicks, that'd be suboptimal
  253. # [14:16] <annevk> (or of which you ended up checking another member)
  254. # [14:16] <Domenic> annevk: how is clicking involved? I don't see any steps in the spec that invoke cloning when you click a hyperlink
  255. # [14:17] <annevk> Domenic: presumably that would lazily figure out the url, no?
  256. # [14:17] <annevk> Domenic: I mean if we don't figure out the url immediately, we'd have to figure it out later
  257. # [14:17] <Domenic> annevk: right now I believe it just lazily consults the internal URL. It doesn't call re-initialise or anything.
  258. # [14:17] <annevk> Domenic: during hover perhaps?
  259. # [14:18] <Domenic> bbiab
  260. # [14:21] <annevk> Mean I really don't want to write all the domintro garbage
  261. # [14:21] <annevk> I should probably just get over it, but given the long list of important bugs to fix I'm finding it hard to justify
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  266. # [14:36] <Domenic> Authors will appreciate it!
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  270. # [14:49] <annevk> Domenic: well, as long as we're not generating that developer edition
  271. # [14:49] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@ip-162-250-172-189.fibre.fibrestream.ca) (Quit: Leaving...)
  272. # [14:52] <Domenic> :(
  273. # [14:52] <annevk> Also, not all specifications do this so I have some worries about the longevity of all this
  274. # [14:52] <Domenic> _That_ would be a good intern project...
  275. # [14:52] <caitp> http://caitp.github.io/spidermonkey-wks-security/ wip thing to try to figure out cross-browser cross-origin access to well-known symbol-named properties, just for fun.
  276. # [14:52] <annevk> I really want to work on this meta-language thing for standards
  277. # [14:53] <annevk> Having that defined could simplify the decision making process when defining something new so much
  278. # [14:53] <annevk> But it should really be in IDL and IDL is well...
  279. # [14:53] <Domenic> caitp: SyntaxError in Chrome, blank page in Firefox?
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  281. # [14:54] <caitp> nightly is a syntax error for all 3 supported symbols
  282. # [14:54] <caitp> FF nightly*
  283. # [14:54] <caitp> chrome with --harmony is all security errors, but the behaviour Toon wants is very different
  284. # [14:54] <Domenic> Oh HTTPS everywhere is screwing me
  285. # [14:54] <caitp> er, nightly is not a syntax error, it's a security error*
  286. # [14:55] <caitp> which more or less matches current Chrome
  287. # [14:57] <mkwst> annevk: meta-language thing?
  288. # [14:57] <annevk> caitp: you are aware of https://etherpad-mozilla.org/html5-cross-origin-objects and such, right?
  289. # [14:58] <annevk> mkwst: yeah, a more formal definition of what we're doing, including a bunch of convenient shorthands
  290. # [14:58] <mkwst> annevk: for example?
  291. # [14:58] <annevk> mkwst: e.g., ECMAScript is much better at having precise language
  292. # [14:58] <caitp> i've read the etherpad previously, yeah
  293. # [14:58] <annevk> mkwst: but ECMAScript is quite verbose
  294. # [14:59] <annevk> mkwst: Domenic and others came up with a bunch of constructs that make that better
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  296. # [14:59] <Domenic> bterlson wants to get rid of ReturnIfAbrupt in ES, which would make it even better.
  297. # [14:59] <annevk> mkwst: however, since we're not defining JavaScript, but IDL, we cannot really reuse that
  298. # [14:59] <caitp> from bugmail it just sounds like SM is getting further along with matching the etherpad semantics
  299. # [15:00] <annevk> mkwst: so what I'd like is for IDL to define that kind of language, that specifications can then use, so they all read the same more or less and it becomes easier to spot bugs
  300. # [15:00] <annevk> mkwst: and also hopefully becomes easier to write them
  301. # [15:00] <mkwst> annevk: makes sense. I'm sure there are constructs that get cargo-culted everywhere. Formalizing them might be helpful.
  302. # [15:01] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/zdobersek) (Quit: Leaving.)
  303. # [15:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: reporting the error for the correct line just saved me going through a 100 lines of HTML
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  305. # [15:02] <annevk> Domenic: added domintro to a/area
  306. # [15:02] <annevk> very basic
  307. # [15:03] <Domenic> annevk: will re-review in a few hours
  308. # [15:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: can you have a look at https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/pull/498 ?
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  311. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: glad the line-number reporting is working
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  313. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> I need to finish up the remaining changes to the build script
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  315. # [15:32] <zcorpan> https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewInSafari/Articles/Safari_9.html <link rel="icon" sizes="any" mask href="website_icon.svg"> :-(
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  321. # [15:55] <annevk> Hmm I thought they fixed that
  322. # [15:59] <hasather> zcorpan: annevk: probably just out-of-date documentation, twitter and pinterest uses rel="mask-icon"
  323. # [15:59] <annevk> hasather: was thinking that too
  324. # [16:00] <annevk> hasather: hober also put himself on the hook for writing a PR for mask-icon so I'm guessing all is fine
  325. # [16:01] <hasather> there's a feeback link at the bottom, I'll use that
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  330. # [16:23] <Domenic> Yeah hober where's our PR :)
  331. # [16:23] * Domenic is scared of the <meta> area of the spec
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  333. # [16:26] <wanderview> annevk: ping
  334. # [16:26] <wanderview> or anyone else who can help with relative URLs in stylesheet subresources
  335. # [16:27] <wanderview> if window a.com loads stylesheet a.com/foo.css which is redirected to b.com/foo.css, and there is a bg-image with URL "./bg.jpg"... is that bg-image URL relative to a.com or b.com?
  336. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> See #content :)
  337. # [16:33] <annevk> wanderview: I would expect b.com
  338. # [16:33] <annevk> wanderview: however, even with workers browsers differ on this apparently
  339. # [16:33] <wanderview> annevk: apparently gecko is loading a.com/bg.jpg according to this test I wrote
  340. # [16:34] <annevk> wanderview: wow, that's very magical
  341. # [16:34] <annevk> wanderview: is that without service workers?
  342. # [16:34] <wanderview> where is the css spec?
  343. # [16:34] <nox> Which one?
  344. # [16:34] <wanderview> annevk: I have a service worker, but its not calling .respondWith()
  345. # [16:34] <wanderview> the latest/best one for defining how bg-image is handled
  346. # [16:35] <wanderview> well, I guess it is calling .respondWith(), but it doesn't matter... since gecko decided this before triggering the FetchEvent
  347. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> CSS doesn't exactly define much here
  348. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> Complain at TabAtkins :)
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  350. # [16:35] <annevk> wanderview: the stylesheet is not served through a service worker?
  351. # [16:36] <wanderview> isn't there a github repo for the css specs now?
  352. # [16:36] <wanderview> I can't find it
  353. # [16:36] <annevk> wanderview: because a service worker can have effect on what the URL of the stylesheet becomes, but I guess that might not be play
  354. # [16:36] <annevk> wanderview: https://drafts.csswg.org/
  355. # [16:36] <annevk> wanderview: doesn't really define any of this though
  356. # [16:36] <wanderview> annevk: I am intercepting the stylesheet, but its just passing the url through to fetch()
  357. # [16:36] <wanderview> annevk: I want to write an issue :-)
  358. # [16:37] <annevk> wanderview: right, so fetch() ends up eating the redirect
  359. # [16:37] <wanderview> oh...
  360. # [16:37] <annevk> wanderview: which means the base URL becomes the request URL
  361. # [16:37] <wanderview> right
  362. # [16:37] <wanderview> hmm
  363. # [16:38] <wanderview> I guess I could make it not call .respondWith()
  364. # [16:38] <wanderview> actually, I can't
  365. # [16:39] <wanderview> since I need to perform async work in the fetchevent handler
  366. # [16:39] * wanderview mumbles something about coffee.
  367. # [16:39] <wanderview> annevk: thanks
  368. # [16:40] <annevk> wanderview: it seemed too unlikely that Gecko would not use the "final" stylesheet URL
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  371. # [16:44] <wanderview> annevk: actually, isn't this bad?
  372. # [16:45] <wanderview> annevk: it seems this is a case where installing a service worker that just does e.respondWith(fetch(e.request)) changes or breaks the website
  373. # [16:45] <wanderview> annevk: since suddenly the website stops loading b.com/bg.jpg and tries to load a.com/bg.jpg which might not exist
  374. # [16:46] <annevk> wanderview: I defer to JakeA and slightlyoff
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  376. # [16:47] <annevk> wanderview: too much other stuff going on, but fetch() is not without side effects, even if we change this somehow
  377. # [16:48] <wanderview> annevk: I'll write an issue
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  381. # [16:58] <wanderview> annevk: seems "manual" RequestRedirect could solve it
  382. # [16:58] <wanderview> annevk: but I wrote the issue here: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/757
  383. # [16:58] <annevk> wanderview: no that wouldn't solve it
  384. # [16:59] <wanderview> why not? then the stylesheet would see the final URL?
  385. # [16:59] <annevk> wanderview: we cannot expose redirects to the service worker, remember
  386. # [16:59] <wanderview> annevk: well, yea, that would be a side-effect, but whats the problem with it?
  387. # [16:59] <annevk> wanderview: security vulnerability?
  388. # [17:00] <annevk> wanderview: https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#atomic-http-redirect-handling
  389. # [17:00] <annevk> wanderview: there's a reason it's an "opaqueredirect"; making it non-opaque is not okay
  390. # [17:00] <wanderview> annevk: I guess the same problem exists for other resources anyway... like a script that uses a relative importScripts()
  391. # [17:00] <wanderview> annevk: wait... it would still be an opaqueredirect... just passed immediately to .respondWith()
  392. # [17:00] <annevk> wanderview: those URLs are resolved against the base URL of the global
  393. # [17:01] <annevk> wanderview: and then always go to the network with no way of making it work offline?
  394. # [17:01] <wanderview> annevk: why wouldn't it get intercepted again?
  395. # [17:01] * Quits: zecho (~zecho@204.77.45.99) (Remote host closed the connection)
  396. # [17:01] <annevk> wanderview: how would the CSS loader handle this manual redirect?
  397. # [17:01] <annevk> wanderview: bypass the SW?
  398. # [17:01] <annevk> wanderview: or reveal secrets?
  399. # [17:02] * Joins: zecho (~zecho@204.77.45.99)
  400. # [17:02] <wanderview> annevk: if its same origin within scope, then yes same SW... otherwise other controlling service worker might handle it
  401. # [17:02] <annevk> wanderview: that's how navigation works, that's not how subresources work
  402. # [17:03] <wanderview> annevk: for script case... where top level script is redirected and we do e.respondWith(fetch(e.request)), what is the global base URL? the original script URL or the final URL?
  403. # [17:03] <annevk> wanderview: so yes, if you feed the redirect-to URL into a SW you created a security vulnerability
  404. # [17:03] * Ms2ger wonders if http://test.csswg.org/suites/css21_dev/nightly-unstable/xhtml1/root-box-003.xht is correct
  405. # [17:03] <Ms2ger> (pass condition in <title>)
  406. # [17:03] <wanderview> I guess its defined by the document or worker, and both those have the manual redirect mode
  407. # [17:03] <annevk> wanderview: the base URL of the document
  408. # [17:04] <annevk> wanderview: workers don't have manual mode
  409. # [17:04] <wanderview> annevk: whats the global base URL for a worker, then
  410. # [17:04] <wanderview> ?
  411. # [17:05] * Joins: ^esc (~esc-ape@178.165.128.254.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  412. # [17:05] <annevk> Ms2ger: I think it might be invalid now
  413. # [17:05] <annevk> wanderview: the final URL
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  415. # [17:06] <wanderview> annevk: unless a service worker eats the redirect and then its the same problem as the stylesheet
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  417. # [17:06] <annevk> wanderview: ah yeah, for workers that's true
  418. # [17:07] <annevk> wanderview: I'm just saying that manual is not the solution here
  419. # [17:07] <annevk> wanderview: if you want this different we actually need to change the model
  420. # [17:07] <annevk> wanderview: which not be a bad idea, but it's a bit late
  421. # [17:08] <annevk> wanderview: I tried to get this nailed down at some point, but sicking and slightlyoff didn't really want to discuss it much back then
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  423. # [17:08] <annevk> wanderview: and we still had this fetch() vs event.default() thing which was weird
  424. # [17:09] <wanderview> annevk: I won't be too upset if people say "corner case... wontfix"... I just want people to be aware of it
  425. # [17:09] <annevk> fair
  426. # [17:09] <wanderview> its a definite footgun for developers, though
  427. # [17:09] <annevk> Yeah, I think we should maybe try to change it
  428. # [17:10] <annevk> We've changed a lot of things in fetch() so that it doesn't break defaults
  429. # [17:10] <annevk> E.g., referrer was a recent one
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  431. # [17:10] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: merged
  432. # [17:10] <wanderview> annevk: like this example would break: https://jakearchibald.com/2014/offline-cookbook/#on-network-response
  433. # [17:12] <annevk> wanderview: added a comment
  434. # [17:12] <wanderview> thanks
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  450. # [18:28] <annevk> WHATWG aka DOM WG
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  465. # [19:26] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi! As promised we're about to complete the services database cleanup so expect a little lag from ChanServ, NickServ etc.
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  478. # [19:55] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi again. The database clear-out has been completed and services such as NickServ and ChanServ are working normally again
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  507. # [21:13] <MikeSmith> beverloo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32908826/multiple-chrome-push-notifications-automatically-closes-except-the-last-one
  508. # [21:15] <beverloo> MikeSmith, 'morning :)
  509. # [21:15] <beverloo> I haven't heard of that before
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  511. # [21:20] <MikeSmith> howdy beverloo
  512. # [21:25] <beverloo> MikeSmith, ah I got it
  513. # [21:25] <beverloo> he sets the `tag` as the beginning of the event, and then fetches multiple notifications from his server, displaying them with the same tag
  514. # [21:26] <beverloo> solution is to not use `tag` except for his error notification
  515. # [21:26] <beverloo> let me create an account (way overdue anyway) and reply
  516. # [21:26] <beverloo> thanks for the pointer :)
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  522. # [21:40] <Domenic> annevk: so where do we stuff things that we want to put on the global now?
  523. # [21:40] <Domenic> i can't actually find any examples of putting things on the environment settings object
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  526. # [21:41] <annevk> Domenic: I've been thinking a bit more about this and putting things on the global instead of document might actually be problematic due to document.open() (which replaces the global)
  527. # [21:41] <annevk> Domenic: but I guess it depends
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  530. # [21:42] <Domenic> annevk: so i guess my immediate confusion is that settings objects only have algorithms right now, whereas I want to put a couple data structures on them
  531. # [21:42] <Domenic> where does HTML put all its global state??
  532. # [21:42] <annevk> Domenic: document
  533. # [21:42] <annevk> Domenic: mostly
  534. # [21:42] <Domenic> annevk: what about in workers? :(
  535. # [21:43] <annevk> Domenic: the environment settings object
  536. # [21:43] <annevk> Domenic: and now a bit on the global too
  537. # [21:43] <Domenic> annevk: any examples? I think I am just searching wrong.
  538. # [21:43] <annevk> Domenic: HTTPS state?
  539. # [21:43] <botie> HTTPS state is poorly defined. I don't think it's in HTML yet. I'm hedging mkwst's bets. :)
  540. # [21:44] <annevk> Domenic: also WorkerGlobalObject's url
  541. # [21:44] <Domenic> annevk: meh, I don't want an algorithm for obtaining a list, I want a list...
  542. # [21:44] <annevk> I'm not really following I'm afraid
  543. # [21:44] <annevk> I also gotta go, so maybe tomorrow
  544. # [21:44] <Domenic> WorkerGlobalScope's URL is better
  545. # [21:44] <Domenic> I'll try to follow that model.
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  547. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> beverloo: thanks much! (and upvoted)
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