/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-10-05 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  57. # [07:20] <babita> Hi annevk, I am an OPW applicant and would like to work on the project "Contribute to the HTML Standard!". Where should I start?
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  64. # [07:40] <annevk> hey babita, I haven't completely read up on the application process yet, but I believe the idea is that you fix one or more bugs/issues
  65. # [07:40] <annevk> babita: the wiki page has some pointers to those that are easy to start with
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  67. # [07:42] <annevk> babita: the specification itself is hosted at https://github.com/whatwg/html
  68. # [07:42] <annevk> babita: and you can build it using the scripts here: https://github.com/whatwg/html-build
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  70. # [07:45] <annevk> babita: if you haven't read it yet, https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Make_a_Small_Contribution has some tips on this front from Outreachy
  71. # [07:46] <annevk> babita: back later today
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  77. # [08:16] <babita> annevk: thank you so much for the pointers, will go through them now.
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  85. # [09:15] <annevk> babita: cool!
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  90. # [09:23] * annevk updated https://wiki.mozilla.org/Outreachy/2016/December_to_March#Contribute_to_the_HTML_Standard.21 to make the initial set of steps clearer
  91. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks for updating that; there we somebody else on here this weekend also asking how to get started
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  115. # [10:20] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah saw that, it happening again made me realize the instructions should probably be there
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  124. # [11:28] <annevk> Domenic: you have a WindowProxy rewrite somewhere, correct?
  125. # [11:28] <annevk> Domenic: I guess for the cross-origin stuff, we want to have special instances of that object?
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  143. # [13:44] <annevk> smaug____: what are the contents of a history entry?
  144. # [13:44] * smaug____ tries to interpret that
  145. # [13:46] <annevk> smaug____: from reading the specification it seems it contains a "request", a "Document object", a "browsing context name", ...
  146. # [13:46] <annevk> smaug____: but it's never really made explicit or enumerated
  147. # [13:46] <smaug____> hmm, request
  148. # [13:47] <annevk> I guess it says "Each session history entry consists, at a minimum, of a URL, and each entry may in addition have a state object, a title, a Document object, form data, a scroll position, and other information associated with it."
  149. # [13:47] <smaug____> or even document object?
  150. # [13:47] <smaug____> why document object
  151. # [13:47] <annevk> But although it says URL, it seems to manipulate the request method at times so that's clearly more complicated
  152. # [13:47] <smaug____> only bfcache hentry contains document object
  153. # [13:47] <annevk> smaug____: right, it's for bfcache
  154. # [13:48] <annevk> smaug____: the Document object is optional
  155. # [13:48] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/docshell/shistory/nsISHEntry.idl
  156. # [13:49] <smaug____> title, formstate, scroll info, url are there
  157. # [13:50] <smaug____> it is not clear to me what "request" is about
  158. # [13:50] <annevk> smaug____: in the spec it accounts for the entry initially being requested using the GET method
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  161. # [13:53] <annevk> smaug____: from that it seems we also store referrer and referrer policy, all of which would be part of request
  162. # [13:53] <annevk> smaug____: so maybe there's something to that idea
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  166. # [13:56] <smaug____> ah, yes, those might be part of request in spec
  167. # [13:58] <mkwst> annevk: CSPish things are starting to come together at https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-csp/#integrations. It's nowhere near done, but probably worth your time to skim that section now so I don't continue off in directions you wouldn't like for either Fetch or HTML.
  168. # [13:59] <mkwst> annevk: I think it should take care of the things you noted last time around as being undesirable.
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  187. # [15:10] <annevk> mkwst: is the CSP header recognized for all resources or only those that create global objects?
  188. # [15:11] <annevk> mkwst: if the latter, shouldn't the parsing be hooked into HTML someplace?
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  190. # [15:14] <mkwst> annevk: If we want to do something like http://w3c.github.io/webappsec-csp/cookies/, we need the policy before we process `set-cookies` (which is the next step after the monkey-patch point).
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  192. # [15:14] <mkwst> annevk: And if we want to do referrers, we need to do something in fetch.
  193. # [15:15] <mkwst> annevk: There are a few things like that which effect the way Fetch works, outside the context of a global object. For that reason, it seemed simplest to do the parsing in Fetch.
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  206. # [15:37] <annevk> mkwst: I see
  207. # [15:37] <annevk> mkwst: did you figure out when it happens relative to service workers?
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  209. # [15:37] <annevk> mkwst: it seems you decided service workers do not get to set policy
  210. # [15:38] <annevk> mkwst: whereas JakeA and slightlyoff I believe think they will
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  212. # [15:38] * JakeA awakens
  213. # [15:38] <annevk> mkwst: of course, letting CSP control set-cookie and letting CSP be set from SW are potentially somewhat contradictory goals
  214. # [15:40] <JakeA> I'll pop this onto my todo list, need to process it a bit to work out how it interacts with SW
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  216. # [15:40] <JakeA> I'm not dead set on SW being able to set CSP, I just couldn't think of another way of doing it at the time
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  230. # [16:24] <JakeA> annevk: mkwst: since the response's policy can only be set from an http fetch, it cannot be set manually - am I reading that right? Does that mean `new Response` always has no policy?
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  237. # [16:37] <jochen__> annevk: a more detailed response to your email...
  238. # [16:38] <jochen__> annevk: nothing else is updated for css requests either (in blink)
  239. # [16:38] <jochen__> annevk: i'm not saying that this is great, but I can hardly define for css how it should fetch resources in the referrer spec
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  241. # [16:40] <annevk> jochen__: no, but we can all agree on what the model is
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  243. # [16:42] <jochen__> not sure I understand?
  244. # [16:43] <jochen__> the model should be fetch, no?
  245. # [16:43] <annevk> jochen__: the model for how CSS should work
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  247. # [16:44] <jochen__> it should use fetch, right?
  248. # [16:44] <annevk> jochen__: sure, but we're discussing how it uses fetch
  249. # [16:44] <jochen__> hum
  250. # [16:44] <jochen__> i'm not really discussing that
  251. # [16:44] <mkwst> annevk: I don't recall the problem with allowing service workers to control a page's policy. The model in this document allows the service worker to replace/mody a request/response, but forces the response back through the page's policy. That's the agreement that I recall.
  252. # [16:44] <annevk> jochen__: you're saying that it shouldn't have a referrer policy, whereas others have been saying it should have one, that of the document
  253. # [16:44] <mkwst> JakeA: ^^
  254. # [16:45] <jochen__> no
  255. # [16:45] <jochen__> i'm saying whatever has a referrer should have a policy
  256. # [16:45] <jochen__> and it should take the one from whereever it got the referrer
  257. # [16:45] <jochen__> and I understood what you said as "but I don't like where the referrer came from"
  258. # [16:47] <annevk> jochen__: I guess I'm disagreeing with that notion
  259. # [16:47] <annevk> jochen__: I think it's fine for the referrer to come from the stylesheet, whereas the referrer policy comes from the stylesheet's document
  260. # [16:48] <jochen__> mhm
  261. # [16:49] <jochen__> and it should use the policy from the document whenever the network request actually hits the wire?
  262. # [16:49] <jochen__> or from when the stylesheet is loaded?
  263. # [16:50] <JakeA> mkwst: but if the policy is only applied through http fetch, doesn't that mean CSP is always empty via new Response() (even if headers are set manually)
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  265. # [16:53] <annevk> jochen__: well, that's an open question for any request
  266. # [16:53] <annevk> jochen__: if we allow the referrer policy to change in general, we should also allow it to change for stylesheets
  267. # [16:53] <jochen__> i agree that this sounds good in general
  268. # [16:54] <jochen__> however, if the referrer comes from the document, it's odd to only propagate referrer policy changes but not referrer changes
  269. # [16:55] <annevk> the referrer comes from the stylesheet, it cannot really change
  270. # [16:55] <annevk> CSSOM allows changes a bit, but none that would affect the referrer
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  272. # [16:56] <jochen__> so if the referer cannot really change, the policy shouldn't change either imo
  273. # [16:57] <jochen__> i mean, a referrer can't change all that much anyway
  274. # [16:57] <jochen__> basically, anything that you can do via history.pushState
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  276. # [17:00] <annevk> right, for documents it can change
  277. # [17:00] <annevk> given that you have <meta name=referrer> you're going to allow some kind of change to the referrer policy either way
  278. # [17:01] <annevk> the main question is whether that is bounded somehow to the first occurrence and whether that makes sense
  279. # [17:01] <annevk> I guess I don't really care strongly about that
  280. # [17:02] <annevk> I'd go for whatever is easy to implement, but I don't think you can say "no modifications" since clearly <script src=...> <meta name=referrer ...> would be one of the tests
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  297. # [17:42] <jochen__> annevk: indeed, we have such a test in blink
  298. # [17:42] <jochen__> annevk: and currently, it tests that the policy is not updated for the stylesheet
  299. # [17:43] <jochen__> annevk: the thing is, i'd rather not fix one behavior for css in the referrer policy
  300. # [17:43] <jochen__> annevk: i'd rather have css to make up its mind how to integrate with fetch
  301. # [17:44] <annevk> jochen__: euhm, you didn't let HTML make up its mind either
  302. # [17:44] <annevk> jochen__: I don't see what is so hard about deciding on something here
  303. # [17:44] <annevk> jochen__: clearly it needs to be specified elsewhere, but for now we can have a note in the specification about what it's going to be
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  305. # [17:45] <annevk> jochen__: but I guess you could email www-style@w3.org and let them chime in, but I'm pretty sure they'd just defer back
  306. # [17:45] <jochen__> mhm
  307. # [17:46] <jochen__> i'll just run the layout test on firefox and see what happens
  308. # [17:46] <jochen__> in the best case, it just passes, then we have a decision
  309. # [17:48] <annevk> jochen__: that still doesn't make a lot of sense to me
  310. # [17:48] <annevk> jochen__: anyway, what happens for <script src=...> <meta name=referrer ...> <script src=...> <meta name=referrer ...> <link rel=stylesheet> etc.
  311. # [17:48] <annevk> jochen__: does the policy keep changing?
  312. # [17:49] <jochen__> yes
  313. # [17:49] <jochen__> <meta> is pretty random anyway
  314. # [17:49] <jochen__> as the preload scanner does some funky stuff with it
  315. # [17:50] <jochen__> i'd rather only of CSP delivery
  316. # [17:50] * wilsonpage-away is now known as wilsonpage
  317. # [17:51] <jochen__> anyway, off for today
  318. # [17:51] <annevk> jochen__: so the question for stylesheets is whether we copy the policy in or whether it's a reference
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  320. # [17:52] <annevk> jochen__: given CSSOM I'd say it should by reference
  321. # [17:52] <annevk> be by*
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  348. # [18:49] <Domenic> annevk: WindowProxy at https://github.com/domenic/window-proxy-spec but it has no knowledge of cross-origin complications, yeah.
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  353. # [18:52] <annevk> Domenic: for cross-origin we basically want to consolidate the object creation to a single point
  354. # [18:52] <annevk> Domenic: and that then branches to create the correct objects
  355. # [18:52] <Domenic> annevk: I don't really have enough context to know what that means. What objects are you even talking about.
  356. # [18:52] <annevk> Domenic: same for returning objects, obviously
  357. # [18:53] <annevk> Domenic: WindowProxy and Location objects have their own cross-origin objects per the etherpad draft
  358. # [18:53] <Domenic> annevk: hmm OK, makes sense I guess.
  359. # [18:53] <wanderview> annevk: JakeA: I asked in issue, but do you think a document in SW scope should still be considered "controlled" if `disableFetch()` has been called?
  360. # [18:55] <beverloo> fwiw, from a push messaging perspective, I quite dislike the disableFetch() method (while I understand the reasoning of not wanting listening to events to have side-effects)
  361. # [18:55] <beverloo> there's major performance improvements a UA can make if it's known whether an event will be handled by a SW or not
  362. # [18:55] <beverloo> making features opt-out doesn't scale very well (disablePush()? disableSync()?)
  363. # [18:56] <JakeA> Yeah, I'd still rather listening was just observable
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  365. # [18:57] <JakeA> wanderview: …but is we had disableFetch() my hunch would be that the pages are still controlled.
  366. # [18:57] <wanderview> beverloo: push and sync are explicitly opt-in, so not sure why we would need to add disable calls for those... I think many people would prefer fetch was opt-in as well
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  369. # [18:58] <beverloo> wanderview, for now, but onpushsubscriptionchange/onpusherror/hypothetical onnotificationclose wouldn't be
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  371. # [18:58] <JakeA> It allows you to defer idb upgrades to an activate event of a sw, avoiding multiple tabs with different versions. Also makes sense with clients.matchAll
  372. # [18:59] <wanderview> JakeA: the controlled status does those things? or is that a different topic?
  373. # [19:00] <wanderview> I'm fine with it being controlled... I just suddenly wasn't sure if the definition of "controlled" implied fetch events or not
  374. # [19:00] <JakeA> wanderview: a new SW will wait behind the active one while controlled pages exist using the active one
  375. # [19:00] <JakeA> wanderview: clients.matchAll() will return only controlled clients by default
  376. # [19:01] <wanderview> right, ok... its more a lifecycle thing
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  378. # [19:01] <wanderview> my mental model was wrong... I was thinking of it as being "controlled" in the sense the fetch interception lets the service worker have its way with the page
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  380. # [19:05] <wanderview> thanks
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  409. # [20:04] * Quits: Jayflux (~Jayflux@unaffiliated/jayflux) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  410. # [20:19] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  411. # [20:20] * Joins: wilsonpa_ (~wilsonpag@217.111.161.213)
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  423. # [20:46] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  424. # [20:47] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-157-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
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  426. # [20:49] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  427. # [20:49] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  428. # [20:50] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-43-105.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  434. # [21:01] * Quits: alrra (uid62345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jptwjwinprpuvdli) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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  441. # [21:11] * edsu_ is now known as edsu
  442. # [21:13] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  455. # [21:42] * Quits: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  461. # [22:11] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-178-200-61-79.hsi07.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  462. # [22:16] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  487. # [23:33] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  489. # [23:43] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  490. # [23:43] * Quits: frivoal (~frivoal@2400:2650:86c0:a500:184e:1267:15a4:ef90) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  491. # [23:44] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  492. # [23:44] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  493. # [23:50] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  494. # [23:54] * Quits: plutoniix (~q@node-1bxj.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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  496. # [23:55] * Joins: plutoniix (~q@node-1bxj.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net)
  497. # [23:57] * Quits: Hasimir (~hfenring@unaffiliated/hasimir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  498. # Session Close: Tue Oct 06 00:00:00 2015

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