/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-10-06 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  153. # [08:38] <annevk> yhirano_: hey, do you want me to rebase and all that?
  154. # [08:39] <annevk> yhirano_: cause it looks good now, apart from that
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  156. # [08:46] <yhirano_> annevk: yeah, I'll do
  157. # [08:46] <annevk> yhirano_: thank you
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  161. # [08:57] <annevk> yhirano_: all good now?
  162. # [09:05] <yhirano_> annevk: i'm reading through now, so please wait for a minute.
  163. # [09:05] <annevk> sure
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  170. # [09:24] <annevk> yhirano_: can you remove the "." from the commit title?
  171. # [09:25] <annevk> yhirano_: perhaps make the title "Fix #118: add Response.prototype.body"
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  173. # [09:27] <yhirano_> annevk: got it >> "."
  174. # [09:28] <yhirano_> annevk: I plan to add example (https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/#fetch-api) as a separate commit so i planned to close the issue after that
  175. # [09:28] <yhirano_> annevk: though it is possible to include the example change in this commit
  176. # [09:29] <annevk> yhirano_: new PR is fine
  177. # [09:36] <yhirano_> annevk: fixed the commit title and message
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  180. # [09:41] <mkwst> annevk, JakeA: I'm around if you two still have concerns about the Fetch handling proposed in the CSP3 draft.
  181. # [09:41] <mkwst> Or we can chat later today. Whatever works.
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  183. # [09:43] <annevk> mkwst: working on something else at the moment, but have you thought through whether it makes sense for the service worker to be able to set the policy of a synthetic response (or perhaps a non-opaque response it got from somewhere) similar to how a server can?
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  186. # [09:45] <mkwst> annevk: I'd like to get this bit hammered out this week, but no rush to get it done today. If you're busy, we can chat later.
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  188. # [09:47] <mkwst> annevk: To the specific question, the SW is the network, right? I don't see why it wouldn't be able to set headers on a response. There are particular headers that must take effect before the SW has a chance to screw with them (`clear-site-data` comes to mind), but I guess if the SW can create an entirely synthetic response, there's no real value in
  189. # [09:47] <mkwst> restricting its access to the CSP header.
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  191. # [09:48] <annevk> mkwst: given that you patched HTTP-network fetch, it wouldn't have any effect
  192. # [09:49] <mkwst> annevk: Ah, I see the concern. Yeah. It makes sense that we'd need to parse the headers somewhere further down for that case.
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  194. # [09:50] <mkwst> Not sure how to do that and preserve the option to effect `set-cookie` behavior, but I'll hack something together and ask you to take a look at it later.
  195. # [09:50] <mkwst> n:1
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  197. # [09:53] <annevk> Affecting the set-cookie header sounds intriguing, I guess I should review that
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  202. # [10:02] <mkwst> annevk: I guess I should write it up. Will eventually live in https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-csp/cookies/, which modifies cookies currently, but also needs to poke at Fetch.
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  205. # [10:06] <annevk> mkwst: interesting
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  207. # [10:07] <annevk> mkwst: https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-csp/cookies/#monkey-patching-rfc6264 should be a patch to Fetch afaict
  208. # [10:08] <annevk> mkwst: although I guess if you're going to do this on a per-cookie basis... hmm
  209. # [10:08] <annevk> mkwst: I guess in that case you'd have to do that
  210. # [10:08] <annevk> mkwst: although "none" could still be handled at the Fetch level
  211. # [10:09] <mkwst> We need to do that for `document.cookie = 'x=y';`. I guess we could do more granular `set-cookie` handling in Fetch, but if we're already doing it here for the JS interface, there's not much advantage in doing it twice.
  212. # [10:09] <mkwst> 'none' could certainly be handled in Fetch.
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  215. # [10:11] <mkwst> annevk: I'll try to spell it out in more detail today and send it over for you to skim.
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  217. # [10:11] <annevk> mkwst: I would really prefer we just give an API to block document.cookie/domain
  218. # [10:11] <annevk> mkwst: HTTP-based API
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  220. # [10:12] <annevk> mkwst: instead of granular control over what can be set
  221. # [10:12] <mkwst> annevk: Why?
  222. # [10:12] <annevk> mkwst: even with granular control you can still exhaust the store through XSS
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  224. # [10:13] <annevk> mkwst: because both are bad APIs and should be avoided
  225. # [10:13] <mkwst> annevk: Yes. Both should be avoided. And we should give folks the ability to turn them off (and I plan to).
  226. # [10:14] <mkwst> annevk: But apps use them, for better or worse. Allowing them to lock down the usage to their specific needs seems like a way of allowing those apps to harden themselves, and doesn't seem like it adds substantial complexity.
  227. # [10:14] <mkwst> annevk: I'll write it up one way or the other, and we can argue about whether or not it makes sense. :)
  228. # [10:15] <annevk> mkwst: I'd rather always block those two and offer a new asynchronous API where you would get more granular access
  229. # [10:15] <annevk> but okay, will wait
  230. # [10:16] <mkwst> *shrug* I think it's better to spend our time getting CSP's integrations into shape, and then we can argue about what kind of new stuff to add on top. :)
  231. # [10:16] <mkwst> So when I said "today", I think I was lying. :)
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  240. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> > Symbol.iterator is undefined for document.all
  241. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> ._.
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  261. # [11:37] <Mikaela> Hi, I am wondering `Error: Bad value Content-Security-Policy for attribute http-equiv on element meta.` which I get when validating my site. From what I have understood it's w3 standard, so why would it cause validation error? Or was that just invented by caniuse.com or Chrome? http://caniuse.com/#feat=upgradeinsecurerequests Validation results in question:
  262. # [11:37] <Mikaela> https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=https%3A%2F%2Fmikaela.info%2F
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  264. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> http-equiv doesn't support all headers
  265. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> However, I seem to recall ongoing work to support CSP there
  266. # [11:40] <Mikaela> I see, so I can just safely ignore it for now?
  267. # [11:42] <Ms2ger> I don't think it'll do anything right now, so you can ignore it unless you actually want CSP to apply
  268. # [11:42] <Mikaela> thanks, It does apply on Chrome, no idea on the others
  269. # [11:43] <Ms2ger> mkwst, ^
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  271. # [11:43] <mkwst> Ask MikeSmith.
  272. # [11:44] <mkwst> I added it to HTML, but I don't think the validator is updated yet.
  273. # [11:44] <mkwst> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#attr-meta-http-equiv-content-security-policy
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  276. # [11:47] <mkwst> Mikaela: That directive in particular works in Chrome today, and will work in Firefox 42+.
  277. # [11:48] <Mikaela> and is valid?
  278. # [11:48] <Mikaela> (that link seems to be loading forever here)
  279. # [11:49] <mkwst> Mikaela: Yes. The HTML spec is monstrous. It'll take forever to load, but once it does, you'll see that the `http-equiv` value is indeed specified.
  280. # [11:49] <Mikaela> thanks :)
  281. # [11:49] <mkwst> Mikaela: The validator hasn't been updated, which is reasonable, since the value just got added to the spec ~weeks ago.
  282. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/#attr-meta-http-equiv-content-security-policy is less monstrous
  283. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> Mikaela: yeah, sorry I've just not made time to update the sources of the HTML checker yet
  284. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> On an unrelated note, is there a way to write a css rule that's overridden by a preshint?
  285. # [11:51] <Mikaela> no problem, I was just curious as I was quite sure that it's valid
  286. # [11:51] <Mikaela> that less monstrous version works, thanks
  287. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, surely you'd know that ^ :)
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  289. # [11:53] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: write it in your user stylesheet without !important
  290. # [11:53] <zcorpan> not very test-friendly
  291. # [11:54] <raintrap_> hey guys, any nice WYSIWYG editor you can recommend?
  292. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, yeah, no :)
  293. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> I don't want this test that badly
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  295. # [11:58] <zcorpan> preshint vs UA style is not material to interop anyway
  296. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> I was trying to test whether ol type=decimal is supported
  297. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> But if it only affects people with weird user styles.. Meh
  298. # [12:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ redirects to a 404
  299. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> Is that bad? :)
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  301. # [12:01] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: you can test <ul><li type=decimal> though
  302. # [12:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: someone emailed me and suggest I replace a link from my site to that location with some spam
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  304. # [12:15] <nox> annevk: Sorry for the useless issue. :)
  305. # [12:16] <annevk> it's cool, I think I mistakenly reported that one too once
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  309. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> annevk: hmm yeah lemme fix that
  310. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> ah good after upgrading to El Capitan it seems there's no longer an Apple-provided cvs command
  311. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> which is as things should be
  312. # [12:39] * MikeSmith homebrews is
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  314. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: fixed that redirect
  315. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> thanks for the heads-up
  316. # [12:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: brave new era of useful spam
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  319. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> hah
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  321. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> achievement unlocked, found a valid use case for spam
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  324. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> in similar news, we found somebody actually prefers the IETF for something https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/651342403962601473
  325. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> will wonders never cease
  326. # [12:54] <annevk> lol, creating a new IANA registry
  327. # [12:56] <mkwst> Oh, the exciting life of me.
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  329. # [12:57] <mkwst> The IETF's publication system is so simple. It puts the W3C's to shame.
  330. # [12:57] <mkwst> I think I've mentioned this before.
  331. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> yeah among other things, the result is great for weeding out the people who might ever want try to read some part a spec on a smartphone
  332. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> the lack of ability to include useful internal cross-reference also frees up editors from the nuisance of trying to fill their documents with them
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  335. # [13:13] * Ms2ger remembers when Hixie was told to stop publishing so often, because the publishmonkey couldn't keep up
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  350. # [13:44] <annevk> Yeah, the W3C is averse to change, but the IETF is worse
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  362. # [14:22] <annevk> philipj: hmm, now I'm thinking that perhaps navigation doesn't always discard
  363. # [14:28] <philipj> annevk: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#navigate calls "unload a document" which calls "discard the document", but I didn't check for early returns or conditions or anything
  364. # [14:29] <annevk> philipj: only when it cannot be salvaged
  365. # [14:29] <annevk> philipj: so my patch probably breaks Mozilla's bfcache
  366. # [14:30] <annevk> good times
  367. # [14:30] <jgraham> Hmm?
  368. # [14:30] <philipj> oh, the spec actually doesn't just pretend that every navigation loads the URL from scratch?
  369. # [14:30] <jgraham> No
  370. # [14:31] <jgraham> Because that's observably different
  371. # [14:31] * jgraham doesn't know the context btw
  372. # [14:31] <philipj> Right, but I have pretty low expectations in the area of navigation :)
  373. # [14:31] <jgraham> Well fair enough but it *tries* to be right
  374. # [14:32] <philipj> Fascinating
  375. # [14:32] <jgraham> So it gets things right like pageshow being different for actual loads vs history navigations
  376. # [14:32] <philipj> I guess that means annevk needs to understand how this works, and then I need to pretend to have understood the change :P
  377. # [14:32] <jgraham> What is "this"?
  378. # [14:32] <philipj> jgraham: when to exit fullscreen during navigation
  379. # [14:32] <jgraham> Oh
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  381. # [14:33] <jgraham> Is that supposed to be always?
  382. # [14:33] <philipj> for top-level documents, yes, but not when navigating an iframe
  383. # [14:34] <philipj> I'm actually not sure what these restrictions achieve, though.
  384. # [14:35] <jgraham> Seems like it might be right to exit fullscreen after firing pagehide if the document is in a tlbc, or something?
  385. # [14:35] * jgraham hasn't thought about it too much
  386. # [14:44] <annevk> jgraham: yeah maybe, though we also need to tackle browsing contexts closing
  387. # [14:44] <annevk> jgraham: if you close a browsing context, I guess history is not preserved?
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  389. # [14:47] <jgraham> Well if you close a child browsing context, the join session history doesn't change. If you close a tlbc I think it all goes through the same steps to fire pagehide+unload+etc.
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  393. # [15:06] <annevk> philipj: are you sure we shouldn't fire the event btw?
  394. # [15:06] <annevk> philipj: wouldn't it be better if the site could still perform animations and such before being navigated
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  396. # [15:07] <izhak> Hi, guys! What is the status of the multipart responses in http 1.*, http 2.0 and current browsers?
  397. # [15:07] <izhak> I mean, how well is it supported in browsers as well as in protocols..&
  398. # [15:07] <izhak> ?
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  408. # [15:29] <philipj> annevk: I would think it's too late to do anything at that point, or how long could the animation be?
  409. # [15:29] <annevk> philipj: dunno, but there's other events firing at that point
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  411. # [15:30] <philipj> annevk: an easy way to find out is to just use the incantations that will result in events being fired and see if implementors complain that it doesn't make any sense.
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  413. # [15:30] <philipj> or more likely, if it doesn't make sense, the events just won't be fired anyway
  414. # [15:31] <annevk> hmm
  415. # [15:31] <annevk> We should actually know
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  417. # [15:34] <philipj> Well, for documents that aren't salvageable and are being discarded, it doesn't make much sense to fire any events I think
  418. # [15:34] <philipj> but if you can navigate away from a fullscreen page and then back without a full reload, it would be very strange if the page still thinks it's fullscreen because no event has been fired
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  424. # [16:04] * annevk finds "If any event listeners were triggered by the earlier unload event step" and wonders how that is explained
  425. # [16:06] <Ms2ger> Not
  426. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> annevk, did we ever have dom explain the IDB "if any event listener threw an exception" pattern?
  427. # [16:07] <annevk> Ms2ger: nope
  428. # [16:08] <annevk> how many fricking hacks did people add?
  429. # [16:08] <annevk> IDB no less, I though there was no real theoretical reason to dislike that API
  430. # [16:09] <annevk> time for 😓
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  432. # [16:09] <annevk> or maybe 😭 since it seems the floodgates on event listener hacks are open
  433. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> > Call for Review: W3C DOM4 Proposed Recommendation Published
  434. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> lol
  435. # [16:16] <annevk> wat
  436. # [16:16] <annevk> "This branch is 209 commits ahead, 120 commits behind whatwg:master."
  437. # [16:16] <gsnedders> So, uh, how many tests did they have to get to PR?
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  439. # [16:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: another interesting data point for https://github.com/w3c/charter-html/issues/112#issuecomment-141880890 though I doubt anyone really cares
  440. # [16:19] <annevk> plh is on his solo mission to replicate all things WHATWG
  441. # [16:20] <annevk> but not doing a great job of it for the couple of things I checked
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  444. # [16:21] <wanderview> can stylesheet @imports be cross-origin?
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  446. # [16:23] <ondras> wanderview: that opens a potential xss vector, as you can verify whether a certain css rule was applied and thus if that rule has been defined, right?
  447. # [16:23] <wanderview> ondras: I don't know... I would be happy to hear its spec'd as same-origin only
  448. # [16:26] <wanderview> ah, here it is: "The origin of an imported style sheet is the same as the origin of the style sheet that imported it."
  449. # [16:26] <wanderview> although maybe that means its just changing the origin of the imported stylesheet? hmm
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  451. # [16:27] <wanderview> oh, thats some css origin concept
  452. # [16:28] <ondras> http://jsfiddle.net/m4drt18k/
  453. # [16:29] <ondras> loading cross origin css apparently works
  454. # [16:30] <ondras> and the followup... http://jsfiddle.net/m4drt18k/1/
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  457. # [16:34] <annevk> wanderview: yes they can
  458. # [16:34] <wanderview> yea... nice way to start the morning :-\
  459. # [16:35] <annevk> wanderview: CSS is full of SOP fail
  460. # [16:35] <wanderview> my easy bug fix is turning into a month-long endeavor
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  465. # [16:53] <caitp> isn't that just the worst?
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  469. # [17:05] <gsnedders> is it deliberate the Acid tests don't have any clear license on them?
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  499. # [18:43] <smaug____> hmm, stable links to html spec would be nice
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  510. # [19:22] <annevk> smaug____: what link broke?
  511. # [19:27] <smaug____> annevk: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#processing-model-9:run-the-animation-frame-callbacks
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  513. # [19:30] <Domenic> smaug____: so, I do have plans for this
  514. # [19:31] <Domenic> You'll be able to press "y" on your keyboard and your URL will mutate to something like https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/commit-snapshots/02e0a6431731da258d0dcad8b813c216c9f16d7c/#queuing-strategies (but for HTML of course)
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  516. # [19:32] <smaug____> well, what I'd like to see is to avoid removing fragment identifiers from the spec if just possible
  517. # [19:33] <smaug____> but of course that isn't always possible
  518. # [19:33] <Domenic> hmm
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  524. # [19:55] <annevk> smaug____: I'm guessing that fragment identifier was generated by dfn.js
  525. # [19:55] <annevk> or maybe Wattsi, not sure what's up
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  541. # [20:18] <Domenic> yay URL!
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  573. # [21:37] <Domenic> Can you not CC people by email on W3C bugzilla
  574. # [21:41] <smaug____> one needs to have a bugzilla account
  575. # [21:41] <smaug____> or perhaps you meant something else
  576. # [21:42] <Domenic> yeah
  577. # [21:43] <Domenic> that is annoying
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  579. # [21:43] <smaug____> Domenic: how is that different to github or chromium's bug tracker?
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  581. # [21:43] <Domenic> smaug____: neither of those have CC fields which list email addresses, inviting you to simply add another email address
  582. # [21:44] <smaug____> oh. Never seen it that way
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  584. # [21:45] * smaug____ is annoyed by chromium's bug tracker requiring a Google account
  585. # [21:45] <Domenic> that is pretty bullshit :-/
  586. # [21:47] <smaug____> Domenic: well, it in practice reduces the likelihood I'd file blink bugs
  587. # [21:47] <smaug____> I do have google accounts but try to not use them
  588. # [21:47] <smaug____> (since google tends to track me so well)
  589. # [21:47] <smaug____> oh well
  590. # [21:48] <Domenic> I heard there was a header you could send </troll>
  591. # [21:55] <annevk> heycam|away: we need (undefined or type) stuff in IDL
  592. # [21:55] <annevk> heycam|away: on the input side it exists as optional type, but there's nothing for the return side
  593. # [21:55] <annevk> (if someone wants to file a bug on that, be my guest, I'll get to it eventually otherwise)
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  595. # [22:01] <annevk> smaug____: feel free to file them through IRC proxy
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  597. # [22:03] <smaug____> annevk: blink bugs?
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  727. # Session Close: Wed Oct 07 00:00:00 2015

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