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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 13 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  37. # Session Close: Tue Oct 13 01:54:56 2015
  38. #
  39. # Session Start: Tue Oct 13 01:54:56 2015
  40. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  42. # [09:04] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  44. # [09:04] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  45. # [09:04] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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  61. # [10:22] <rniwa> annevk: yt?
  62. # [10:23] <annevk> rniwa: yeah
  63. # [10:23] <rniwa> annevk: hello
  64. # [10:23] <annevk> morning
  65. # [10:24] <rniwa> annevk: so my colleague is interested in finalizing ES6 module semantics in HTML
  66. # [10:24] <rniwa> annevk: which W3C WG would be appropriate for that?
  67. # [10:24] <rniwa> (basically, I'm trying to recruit more people into standards work ;) )
  68. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> WHATWG
  69. # [10:25] * Joins: JonathanC (~JonathanC@105.210.66.130)
  70. # [10:25] <rniwa> Ms2ger: does that mean it'll be HTML WG in W3C?
  71. # [10:25] <Ms2ger> Ding dong, the HTML WG is dead
  72. # [10:25] <rniwa> (i know the irony of asking this question on #whatwg)
  73. # [10:26] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I'm trying to figure out which meeting he can attend at TPAC if any
  74. # [10:26] <annevk> rniwa: W3C is not involved
  75. # [10:26] <rniwa> annevk: oh
  76. # [10:26] <annevk> rniwa: https://github.com/whatwg/loader is where the work happens
  77. # [10:26] <rniwa> annevk: that seems really bad from IP perspective...
  78. # [10:26] <annevk> rniwa: I'm not a lawyer
  79. # [10:26] <rniwa> annevk: I understand
  80. # [10:27] <rniwa> annevk: alright, let me bring that up somewhere sane so that we can get patent protection.
  81. # [10:27] * rniwa is always paranoid
  82. # [10:27] <JonathanC> where can I promote my proposed working group and find people wanting to help implement the specification? and make my coffee and lunch?
  83. # [10:28] <rniwa> JonathanC: you can do that at TPAC!
  84. # [10:28] <rniwa> JonathanC: join us on hallway conversasions
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  86. # [10:29] <JonathanC> thanks
  87. # [10:30] <rniwa> annevk: btw, is anyone at Mozilla implementing that spec?
  88. # [10:30] <rniwa> annevk: at least module part?
  89. # [10:31] <annevk> rniwa: well, it isn't really done yet
  90. # [10:31] <annevk> rniwa: so we're mostly blocked on design
  91. # [10:31] <rniwa> annevk: oh I see
  92. # [10:31] <rniwa> annevk: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/190272
  93. # [10:31] <rniwa> annevk: we're pretty much done introducing all the hooks there
  94. # [10:32] <rniwa> and we've been waiting for the spec to stabilize but it seems like we need to figure out all the dtails
  95. # [10:32] <annevk> I think everyone is at that point now
  96. # [10:33] <annevk> well, seems like it, but nobody has taken the time to write up the details
  97. # [10:33] <rniwa> okay :(
  98. # [10:33] <rniwa> annevk: will you be interested in talking about it at TPAC?
  99. # [10:33] <rniwa> unfortunately, I won't know enough about details myself but I might be able to convince someone to along with us ;)
  100. # [10:35] <annevk> rniwa: sure, that seems worthwhile
  101. # [10:36] <rniwa> annevk: great!
  102. # [10:36] * rniwa is really excited about modules
  103. # [10:36] <rniwa> although I'm also very scared of its perf impact
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  111. # [10:51] <JonathanC> rniwa: are you saying the event? or is there a channel I can also join
  112. # [10:51] <rniwa> JonathanC: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/
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  114. # [10:52] <JonathanC> I dont meet requirments :(
  115. # [10:53] <rniwa> oh oops :(
  116. # [10:53] <JonathanC> have to work on that first then.
  117. # [10:54] <JonathanC> or silently check in some new code into the browser source
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  119. # [10:55] <annevk> JonathanC: which specification are you talking about?
  120. # [10:56] <JonathanC> Just the idea: DataSheets https://www.w3.org/community/blog/2015/10/08/proposed-group-datasheets-community-group
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  122. # [11:03] <botie> calvaris, at 2015-10-12 18:09 UTC, Domenic said: Hey, any thoughts on the licensing issues for https://github.com/whatwg/streams/pull/397 ?
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  235. # [16:35] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: any chance of getting access to Template-Python on PyPi to fix https://github.com/gsnedders/Template-Python/issues/2?
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  237. # [16:36] <SimonSapin_> gsnedders: same username?
  238. # [16:36] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: yeah
  239. # [16:36] <SimonSapin_> done :)
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  241. # [16:39] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: takk
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  243. # [16:47] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: and pushed a 0.1post1, with a fixed MANIFEST
  244. # [16:47] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: if you care at all
  245. # [16:48] <SimonSapin_> good to know that you’re improving this, but yeah I only care as far as building the css2 test suite
  246. # [16:49] <SimonSapin_> which I think Ms2ger automated to happen on Travis-CI
  247. # [16:49] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: that's all I really care, too
  248. # [16:49] <gsnedders> SimonSapin_: but the broken MANIFEST meant that it wouldn't work for building the CSS testsuites
  249. # [16:51] <JakeA> Domenic: probably stupid question, could the readable stream controller be piped to?
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  251. # [16:53] <SimonSapin_> ok, thanks for fixing it
  252. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, the bogus names are what's being tested :)
  253. # [16:55] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: ohhh
  254. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I sure hope nobody would come up with those accidentally :)
  255. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I really didn't investigate closely :)
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  261. # [17:10] <Domenic> JakeA: no, the RSC is just a holder for a few methods, think of it like just an object literal.
  262. # [17:10] <JakeA> gothca, cheera
  263. # [17:10] <JakeA> and cheers
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  282. # [17:55] <wanderview> MikeSmith: do you know about the w3c validator?
  283. # [17:58] <wanderview> MikeSmith: does the feed validator have a different tls deployment? it seems to fail on tls for my blog feed here: https://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.wanderview.com%2Fatom-mozilla.xml
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  286. # [18:00] <gsnedders> wanderview: AFAIK they're entirely different, just with a vaguely common front-end
  287. # [18:00] <wanderview> hmm, but I get success if I enter the URL on validator.w3.org/ : https://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.wanderview.com%2Fatom-mozilla.xml&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
  288. # [18:01] <wanderview> hmm
  289. # [18:01] <wanderview> gsnedders: thanks
  290. # [18:04] <gsnedders> wanderview: notably, the feed validator uses http://feedvalidator.org, presumably with some Python HTTP library and whatever TLS setup that uses (likely OpenSSL in some configuration or other)
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  298. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> wanderview: what gsnedders said
  299. # [18:12] <wanderview> ok, thanks
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  301. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> I know the feed validator at least has problems wish SNI
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  303. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> I believe that's because python 2.7 doesn't do SNI
  304. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> it may also have other TLS problems beyond that
  305. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> last I knew, Sam Ruby was the one maintaining the feed-validator code
  306. # [18:18] <jgraham> 2.7.9 supports SNI
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  391. # [20:30] <JakeA> wanderview: is there a comment in the streams centithread that explains why a revealing constructor (even if it's called straight away) is bad, and your transform stream / pipe solution is good?
  392. # [20:31] <wanderview> JakeA: you mean in issue 30?
  393. # [20:31] <JakeA> wanderview: or #59, yeah
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  395. # [20:32] <JakeA> wanderview: https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/issues/59#issuecomment-147773920 - I get that one of the bodyWriters here will be used, and 2 of them won't, but I don't get why that's bad, or why creating 3 pipes would work around the badness
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  399. # [20:33] <wanderview> JakeA: you don't create 3 pipes... just one pipe... and you can then later pick which ReadableStream to write into the pipe
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  404. # [20:36] <wanderview> JakeA: not sure there is a good summary comment in issue 30, but I think this one somes up a lot of my opinions: https://github.com/yutakahirano/fetch-with-streams/issues/30#issuecomment-93039367
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  406. # [20:37] <wanderview> JakeA: also note, a lot of the issues in comment 30 were more about Request than Response...
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  411. # [20:46] <JakeA> cheers!
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  414. # [20:48] <JakeA> wanderview: so why can't new Response(writableStream => cacheResponse.pipeTo(writableStream)) be optimised in the same way (done off thread), or is it just API preference?
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  416. # [20:52] <frewsxcv> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/#ask-for-a-reset
  417. # [20:52] <wanderview> JakeA: well, I was thinking more for Request... with a pipe you can move the pipe off thread immediate on fetch(request)... with the writer revealer function I have to go back to javascript once I have the tcp connection established and the outgoing upload stream ready to write to... this is an extra round trip to js
  418. # [20:52] <frewsxcv> "If the multiple attribute is present..."
  419. # [20:52] <frewsxcv> is that paragraph part of the 'ask for a reset' section?
  420. # [20:53] <wanderview> JakeA: I would be happy to allow the revealer function if it just implied "automatically create a pipe and caller revealer function with writer side of pipe"
  421. # [20:53] <wanderview> I think its unnecessary API contortions, though
  422. # [20:55] <wanderview> JakeA: Request and Response are inherently time-disconnected from the event that consumes them... so I think a buffered pipe is the correct representation for their body streams
  423. # [20:55] <wanderview> because time-disconnected effectively requires buffering
  424. # [20:56] <JakeA> thanks! I think I get it now
  425. # [20:57] <Domenic> The time-disconnected => writable stream revealer does not work argument makes a lot of sense to me
  426. # [20:57] <Domenic> That led me to the idea of putting the writable stream somewhere else
  427. # [20:57] <Domenic> But the pipe version also looks nice and simple
  428. # [20:57] <Domenic> So if tyoshino and yhirano_ are OK with it then it sounds good to me
  429. # [20:58] <JakeA> what's the difference between this pipe thing and a null transform stream?
  430. # [20:58] <Domenic> JakeA: pipe is what wanderview likes to call identify transform stream
  431. # [20:59] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.186.7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  432. # [20:59] <Domenic> POSIX has a similar concept called pipe
  433. # [20:59] <wanderview> pipe is shorter
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  435. # [20:59] <JakeA> hah, gotcha
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  442. # [21:02] <JakeA> not that it matters, but wanderview's pipe idea sounds great to me
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  445. # [21:03] <wanderview> I guess we also call it a pipe in gecko
  446. # [21:03] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@17.114.217.192)
  447. # [21:03] <JakeA> Domenic: wanderview: is it worth having a Pipe() constructor, or would it just be TransformStream with no transform specified?
  448. # [21:03] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@116.251.213.235) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  449. # [21:04] <Domenic> JakeA: I am not sure yet but I would prefer the latter. I think in theory that should work given that the reader and writer and pipeThrough/pipeTo design is all locked down to allow optimizations...
  450. # [21:04] * Quits: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@69.85.93.163) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  451. # [21:05] <Domenic> this means i'm going to have to get my stuff together and finish writable streams/transform streams, eek.
  452. # [21:05] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@84.219.248.21)
  453. # [21:05] <Domenic> i was hoping that getting author-constructed readable streams in chrome would be enough
  454. # [21:05] <JakeA> Domenic: wanderview: just so you know I've been telling everyone that streams will be the major web platform addition of 2016 so you better not fuck this up
  455. # [21:05] <JakeA> :D
  456. # [21:05] <Domenic> (almost done with that patch)
  457. # [21:05] <Domenic> haha
  458. # [21:05] <Domenic> 2016 we can manage
  459. # [21:06] <wanderview> JakeA: well, at the right things are going... no promises
  460. # [21:06] <JakeA> Well, even with readable streams I can prototype the perf benefits from within a service worker
  461. # [21:06] <Domenic> that's true
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  464. # [21:07] <JakeA> If it beats the current client render strategy of https://wiki-offline.jakearchibald.com/ *before* optimisation, that's pretty big news
  465. # [21:09] <Domenic> It seems like there would be some cost in evangelizing one pattern only to later evangelize the better one though
  466. # [21:09] <Domenic> I guess that's life on the bleeding edge...
  467. # [21:10] <JakeA> Well… it depends where you're coming from. If you're starting with a JS client driven SPA, the shell approach works with little modification
  468. # [21:11] <JakeA> If you're a server driven site, the streaming approach is less invasive than having to create a client-driven thing
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  472. # [21:11] <JakeA> I wouldn't change https://jakearchibald.github.io/svgomg/ for instance.
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  514. # [22:37] <gsnedders> smaug____: mostly the ones jgraham wrote while at Opera that finally got merged. from memory, the number isn't massive, but they're quite evil.
  515. # [22:38] <smaug____> I'm in process of hacking push/replaceState handling when called during page load
  516. # [22:43] <jgraham> smaug____: I'm not sure I wrote tests for that specific case
  517. # [22:43] <jgraham> But we will see
  518. # [22:43] <jgraham> Also if I didn't you should :)
  519. # [22:43] <jgraham> Also if I did you should
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  521. # [22:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm pretty sure you did.
  522. # [22:48] * Joins: jensnockert_ (~jensnocke@84.219.248.21)
  523. # [22:48] <jgraham> Maybe! But smaug still should.
  524. # [22:49] <smaug____> iik
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  526. # [22:49] <smaug____> but yes, I should
  527. # [22:50] <smaug____> session history is after all this nice piece of web platform which isn't specified nor implemented properly anywhere
  528. # [22:50] <jgraham> And whiuch servo still has to implement
  529. # [22:50] <jgraham> So there's a very clear payoff there
  530. # [22:50] <jgraham> Also lag
  531. # [22:50] <jgraham> Can't see anything I'm typing
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  533. # [22:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: can you remember what happened with all the Core 3 feedback, or did it just all fall into the category of "we need to rewrite all of this, because who knows what we need, halp"?
  534. # [22:53] <jgraham> I filed some bug reports
  535. # [22:53] <jgraham> I don't know what happened to them
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