/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-10-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 14 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  347. # [18:00] <Domenic> Nobody wants to review https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/244 ? ;_;
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  354. # [18:17] <terinjokes> Domenic: i'm always :+1: for removing dead code
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  362. # [18:37] <annevk> Domenic: I thought you wanted to add more things to it
  363. # [18:37] <annevk> Domenic: was "but there are still things to do" not meant as an indication you were going to update the PR?
  364. # [18:37] <Domenic> annevk: oh, no, some time soon I might do the rest, but those two stand alone for now.
  365. # [18:38] <annevk> Domenic: some command concepts remaining seemed a bit confusing, but I think overall it was fine
  366. # [18:39] <annevk> Domenic: so... LGTM
  367. # [18:39] <Domenic> \o/
  368. # [18:39] <annevk> Domenic: will you rebase & merge?
  369. # [18:39] <Domenic> annevk: yeah
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  373. # [18:44] <Domenic> I wonder if we should consider some kind of... background color, maybe? ... for authoring requirements
  374. # [18:44] <annevk> There used to be some kind of switch
  375. # [18:45] <annevk> To highlight the "impl" bits mostly, since sometimes those are intertwined
  376. # [18:45] <Domenic> The w-nodev markers can allow you to remove the impl bits
  377. # [18:46] <Domenic> But the confusion we're seeing most recently is authors saying "but my browser allows this just fine"
  378. # [18:46] <Domenic> i.e. authors not realizing that authoring conformance criteria are meant to constrain them, not to constrain browsers.
  379. # [18:47] <annevk> It probably needs to be called out in text in some way too
  380. # [18:47] <annevk> To make it accessible
  381. # [18:47] <Domenic> I have vague visions of margin annotations
  382. # [18:48] <Domenic> Let me see if I can make a mockup
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  415. # [19:01] <Domenic> Something like this maybe https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/cO7Wucwf/authoring.png
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  417. # [19:02] <Domenic> Would be a lot of work to go find all the authoring requirements though
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  539. # [23:00] <roc> is this new Streams spec supposed to obsolete existing transformation APIs such as MediaRecorder?
  540. # [23:00] <wanderview> Domenic: ^^^
  541. # [23:00] <Domenic> roc: it is a primitive like Promise. Ideally specs upgrade to use it, like they have been doing for callbacks vs. promises
  542. # [23:00] <Domenic> roc: for example I threw together https://domenic.github.io/streaming-mediastreams/
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  544. # [23:02] <roc> is MediaStreamRecorder supposed to be something totally different to MediaRecorder, or did you mean to write MediaRecorder?
  545. # [23:02] <Domenic> roc: it is meant to be an alternative design that is based on streams instead of having ad-hoc stream-esque interfaces
  546. # [23:03] <roc> so the intent *is* to replace MediaRecorder?
  547. # [23:04] <Domenic> roc: yes, I guess. Although it would depend on the relevant people working up the energy to implement something new, which in this particular case seems low.
  548. # [23:05] <Domenic> roc: just like with promises, I'm sure we'll see lots of older APIs stick with the old ad-hoc mismash of patterns (XHR's events, IDB's callbacks, etc.), while new APIs are developed that use promises (Fetch, IDB+Promises draft, ...)
  549. # [23:05] <Domenic> s/use promises/use the new primitive/
  550. # [23:05] <roc> it certainly makes sense for me for MediaRecorder to be able to produce a readable stream
  551. # [23:06] <Domenic> IMO that would be like saying it make sense for the XMLHttpRequest object to produce a promise. I guess it works, but it'd be better not to have to go through the old interface on your way to the new primitive.
  552. # [23:07] <roc> MediaRecorder has useful state like RecordingState
  553. # [23:08] <roc> and a MIME type
  554. # [23:08] <Domenic> Yes, those are present in MediaStreamRecorder as well.
  555. # [23:08] <Domenic> https://domenic.github.io/streaming-mediastreams/#mediastreamrecorder
  556. # [23:08] <roc> the state isn't, actually, but that's not so important
  557. # [23:09] <Domenic> well, it's in the ReadableStream class (somewhat implicitly)
  558. # [23:10] <Domenic> (We used to expose the state as a sync getter but people preferred not having to shuffle that information back to the main thread in the general case.)
  559. # [23:10] <roc> you don't have pause and resume methods and states on ReadableStreams do you?
  560. # [23:10] <Domenic> roc: they implicitly pause when nobody is reading from them. It's a pull model instead of a push one.
  561. # [23:11] <roc> ok
  562. # [23:11] <roc> suppose I connect a MediaStreamRecorder to an IndexedDB writeable stream
  563. # [23:11] <roc> I'd like to be able to pause() and resume() recording in response to user input
  564. # [23:11] <roc> how do I write that code in your model?
  565. # [23:12] <roc> that aside
  566. # [23:12] <Domenic> You would not use the convenience method pipeTo(idbWS), but would instead write a few lines to do reads from the MSR and writes to the IDB WS
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  568. # [23:12] <Domenic> Then you could stop doing reads/writes at will
  569. # [23:13] <Domenic> pipeTo is a convenience for wanting to pipe things unconditionally
  570. # [23:13] <Domenic> The code would be very similar to the second example
  571. # [23:14] <Domenic> I would write it up but I get the sense from your "that aside" that we are moving on now :)
  572. # [23:14] <roc> refraining from reading is not a good signal to pause the MediaRecorder
  573. # [23:15] <roc> obviously there'll have to be some buffering inside the MediaRecorder or we'll lose data
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  575. # [23:15] <roc> so pausing-by-not-reading will basically force that buffer to fill and then we'll drop data
  576. # [23:15] <roc> so we'll necessarily incur latency corresponding to the size of the buffer
  577. # [23:15] <Domenic> Oh, sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by "pausing"
  578. # [23:15] <Domenic> I thought you meant "pausing reading" not "pausing recording"
  579. # [23:16] <roc> no I mean this: http://www.w3.org/TR/mediastream-recording/#widl-MediaRecorder-pause-void
  580. # [23:16] <Domenic> Right
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  582. # [23:16] <Domenic> I had an answer for this, several months ago, ... trying to dredge it up
  583. # [23:17] <roc> ok, so moving on :-)
  584. # [23:17] <roc> seems to me that MediaStreamRecorder aggregates a readable stream by inheritance
  585. # [23:17] <Domenic> I think it might have been that you can simply cancel the stream and create a new one when you want to resume, with the realization that if that is a naive approach, then it's easy to add pause/resume methods to pause/resume the flow of data into the readable stream
  586. # [23:18] <roc> that's not ideal, yes
  587. # [23:18] <roc> or we would have designed MediaRecorder that way
  588. # [23:18] <Domenic> Fair enough
  589. # [23:19] <Domenic> Re inheritance: yes, the intent is that many consumers of MediaStreamRecorder would treat it as a generic stream-of-blobs. Those who care specifically about the stuff exposed in https://domenic.github.io/streaming-mediastreams/#mediastreamrecorder could use those properties if they wanted.
  590. # [23:19] <roc> the main problem being that the recorded data has headers (and trailers) and it's not always valid to just concatenate blobs to produce a new valid media file
  591. # [23:19] <Domenic> Ah yeah, makes sense
  592. # [23:20] <roc> if MediaRecorder exposed a readable stream as a property, that would be aggregating by membership
  593. # [23:20] <roc> I don't think this is a huge difference
  594. # [23:21] <Domenic> I agree
  595. # [23:21] <Domenic> But MediaRecorder has a bunch of stuff that is just an ad-hoc readable stream interface
  596. # [23:21] <roc> aggregation by membership is often preferred, especially when you might need multiple inheritance, like EventTarget if you want to something to fire custom events at
  597. # [23:21] <Domenic> If the argument is to preserve compat for backward-compat purposes then that makes sense
  598. # [23:22] <roc> I agree, and maybe that can be deprecated or removed later
  599. # [23:22] <Domenic> Yeah, that seems like a reasonable way to evolve
  600. # [23:22] <roc> removing those parts is simpler and less risky than replacing the entire interface
  601. # [23:22] <Domenic> I wasn't really clear what the interop status on MediaRecorder was
  602. # [23:22] <roc> Firefox ships it
  603. # [23:22] <roc> AFAIK Chrome is close to having an implementation
  604. # [23:23] <Domenic> Cool, yeah.
  605. # [23:24] <Domenic> If there were interest I'd be happy to recast this as an extension to existing MediaRecorder. Right now it was mostly just a POC.
  606. # [23:24] <roc> I have another question about structured elements in streams. The spec draft talks about passing video frames and stuff like that
  607. # [23:24] <Domenic> Heh.
  608. # [23:24] <roc> I'm a bit dubious aobut that
  609. # [23:24] <roc> but
  610. # [23:24] <Domenic> Yes, that is a bit handwavey
  611. # [23:24] <roc> I don't have time to talk about it right now!
  612. # [23:24] <roc> so, I'll catch you later :-)
  613. # [23:24] <Domenic> Cool :)
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  615. # [23:31] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.87.53) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  616. # [23:33] * Joins: rego (~rego@66.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
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  619. # [23:36] * Quits: ASGuerrero (~ASGuerrer@94.10.240.197)
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  623. # [23:41] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  624. # [23:41] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:797d:e3cc:5dfa:cae)
  625. # [23:44] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@84.219.248.21) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  626. # [23:44] * Joins: mven (~textual@cpe-173-174-112-125.austin.res.rr.com)
  627. # [23:47] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com)
  628. # [23:52] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  629. # [23:57] * Joins: Garbee (uid21171@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-exwclqjxxmozjswm)
  630. # [23:58] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  631. # Session Close: Thu Oct 15 00:00:00 2015

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