/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 20 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: in practice, you can carry both a laptop bag and rucksack on domestic flights in Japan. I don't know what the documented rules but if the rules say you can only have one bag, I can say that they are certainly not strict about enforcing that.
  11. # [00:15] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: and even in the case if they were to question you about it, it would not be confrontational/rude/matter-of-fact thing like what would happen in the US or some parts of Europe.
  12. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: If you just be human (nice) and ask nicely and treat other people like fellow humans here, it goes a long way. And people generally bend over backwards to be accomodating.
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  14. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: and there is a saying in Japanese busines, お客様は神様です ("The customer is God.") which is not a joke, really. People in service jobs in Japan take that very seriously and take doing their jobs the right way (that is, actually helping people) very seriously no matter how menial anyone else might judge their jobs to be.
  15. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: in short, plan to take your rucksack and laptop bag on, and if there's any problem, plan for success at working with the airline staff to get it worked out without any drama
  16. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> caitp: documenting it so that all browser-engine implementors (current and future) are working from the same set of information, and there are no ambiguities, no undocumented lore that only those already in the know are aware of
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  34. # [01:33] <smaug____> annevk: ping
  35. # [01:34] <smaug____> or perhaps JakeA
  36. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> smaug____: I reckon both are afk/asleep at this point (and you may be the only person here who keeps even weirder hours than me)
  37. # [01:40] <smaug____> hey, it isn't even 3am
  38. # [01:40] * smaug____ doesn't know where JakeA lives
  39. # [01:44] <jgraham> Speaking of weird hours I guess I should be asleep
  40. # [01:44] <jgraham> JakeA is in the UK I think
  41. # [01:45] <boogyman> that's where he resides, but he was in the US last week i believe.
  42. # [01:45] <jgraham> So who knows what state his body clock could be in
  43. # [01:46] <jgraham> Probably best to spam him once an hour ;)
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  85. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> heycam: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/33215722/how-to-use-w3c-svg-test-suite (if you can provide any help)
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  132. # [08:07] <JakeA> smaug____: morning!
  133. # [08:11] <JakeA> wanderview: sorry, I missed your follow-up message, yeah, network timeout
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  157. # [09:44] <zcorpan> wow i have never reflected that whitelist/blacklist had anything to do with skin color
  158. # [09:47] <rniwa> zcorpan: me neither
  159. # [09:47] <rniwa> zcorpan: what's a proper term we should all be using?
  160. # [09:47] <zcorpan> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/265
  161. # [09:47] <zcorpan> safelist/blocklist
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  163. # [09:48] <rniwa> zcorpan: how about blocklist/allowedlist?
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  165. # [09:49] <rniwa> zcorpan: nice
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  167. # [09:51] <zcorpan> it's not clear to me anyone is actually offended by these terms today, although it is slightly uncomfortable if they indeed originated from skin color
  168. # [09:52] <rniwa> zcorpan: now that I think about it, it's very offensive.
  169. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> Just wait until you next hear someone use master/slave
  170. # [09:53] <annevk> zcorpan: same here, can't believe it never occurred to me before
  171. # [09:53] <annevk> Ms2ger: that too, geez
  172. # [09:53] <jochen__> rniwa: hey
  173. # [09:53] <rniwa> jochen__: hello, what's up?
  174. # [09:53] <JakeA> holy shit, never thought of white/blacklist in that way
  175. # [09:53] * JakeA rewires brain
  176. # [09:53] <jochen__> rniwa: who in webkit land would be a good person to talk to about domenic's promise rejection events proposal?
  177. # [09:54] <rniwa> Ms2ger: master/slave is okay because it doesn't discriminate against any race
  178. # [09:54] <zcorpan> yeah
  179. # [09:54] <rniwa> jochen__: probably weinig since he implemented promise in WebKit/JSC
  180. # [09:55] <jochen__> ta
  181. # [09:55] <rniwa> jochen__: probably the best way to get in touch with him will be to file a WebKit bug and cc him
  182. # [09:55] <rniwa> he's a really busy guy these days
  183. # [09:55] <jochen__> who isn't
  184. # [09:59] <jochen__> filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150358
  185. # [10:02] <zcorpan> some people in http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51088/alternative-term-to-blacklist-and-whitelist claim that the origin isn't skin color
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  188. # [10:04] <annevk> zcorpan: I don't think that matters much
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  190. # [10:06] <annevk> zcorpan: it's more that the use in this context suggests that black=bad, white=good, which is somewhat pervasive in Western society and not great
  191. # [10:07] <zcorpan> yeah sure
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  193. # [10:08] <zcorpan> next up: white hat, black hat
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  196. # [10:12] <zcorpan> and white lies
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  224. # [11:05] <annevk> Writing ECMAScript stuff is rather fun
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  228. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Anyone have Edge nearby?
  229. # [11:31] <gsnedders> I can. But I don't have a stable internet connection. :)
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  232. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> Pah
  233. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> I'm interested in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3697
  234. # [11:41] <gsnedders> uh, for some reason can't copy/paste
  235. # [11:41] <gsnedders> log: function CSS() { [native code] }, log: undefined
  236. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  237. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  262. # [13:27] <JeanCarloMachado> /msg NickServ identify wisdom20
  263. # [13:28] <JeanCarloMachado> d
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  276. # [14:02] <annevk> Domenic: given https://github.com/annevk/html-cross-origin-objects/blob/master/Location.md I think it's very feasible to create some kind of generic %CrossOriginObject% thingie that Location and WindowProxy both use
  277. # [14:02] <annevk> Domenic: if we want to list all the [[InternalMethod]] stuff only once
  278. # [14:02] <annevk> Domenic: but maybe that is overkill
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  280. # [14:09] * wilsonpage-away is now known as wilsonpage
  281. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> If anyone feels like being sad, r? https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2266
  282. # [14:19] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I am on it
  283. # [14:19] <jgraham> In fact I was already
  284. # [14:20] <jgraham> So obviously I naturally gravitate toward sadness
  285. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> You do live in the UK
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  287. # [14:26] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Any special reason you created a new file rather than just running the same tests like ["matches", "webkitMatchesSelector"].each(function() {}) ?
  288. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> jgraham, nothing particularly though out; just felt better this way
  289. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> It might be nice to share some more code, but I didn't really want to spend more time on it
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  292. # [14:29] <smaug____> how should openWindow work in SW?
  293. # [14:29] <smaug____> how long should it actually wait before resolving the Promise on worker side
  294. # [14:30] <smaug____> If I read the spec correctly, the promise is resolved ASAP we have a new document
  295. # [14:30] <smaug____> but perhaps I'm missing something
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  297. # [14:31] <smaug____> JakeA: annevk: ^ you might know
  298. # [14:31] <annevk> smaug____: yeah, I think once a document is created it'll be resolved
  299. # [14:32] <annevk> fulfilled, I suppose
  300. # [14:32] <JakeA> Agreed
  301. # [14:32] <smaug____> annevk: so the Document might not actually have any content
  302. # [14:32] <smaug____> like scripts loaded or anything
  303. # [14:32] <smaug____> and sw could already try to communicate with it?
  304. # [14:33] <annevk> smaug____: yeah... I think that was roughly the idea
  305. # [14:33] <annevk> smaug____: hasn't really been specified in detail
  306. # [14:33] <smaug____> hmm, rather racy setup
  307. # [14:33] <JakeA> hm, yeah. Although since it opened it, it could put init data in the fragment or search
  308. # [14:33] <smaug____> but perhaps that is fine. perhaps the idea is that the new Window sends something to sw when it thinks it is ready enough
  309. # [14:34] <zcorpan> browsers don't have built-in feed readers anymore, do they?
  310. # [14:34] <JakeA> If it becomes a pain, we could add a client.ready promise or something to that effect
  311. # [14:34] <smaug____> and visibility and focus states can be anything at the moment Promise is resolved
  312. # [14:38] <smaug____> zcorpan: FF has still
  313. # [14:38] <smaug____> if live bookmarks is a "feed reader"
  314. # [14:39] <zcorpan> sure. ok i see "subscribe to this page" in firefox. but clicking it takes me to https://annevankesteren.nl/feeds/weblog which is mostly empty in Nightly and clicking "subscribe now" appears to do nothing
  315. # [14:41] <smaug____> hmm, I do use livebookmarks all the time
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  317. # [14:41] <smaug____> but those were created long ago
  318. # [14:42] <smaug____> zcorpan: ah, you're using nightly?
  319. # [14:42] <smaug____> with e10s?
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  321. # [14:43] <zcorpan> yeah. i don't know what e10s is but there is a "new non-e10s window" menu item
  322. # [14:43] <smaug____> it is an e10s issue
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  324. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> Multiprocess Firefox
  325. # [14:43] <zcorpan> ok
  326. # [14:46] <smaug____> filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1216513
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  328. # [14:55] <smaug____> annevk: JakeA: FWIW, I'm rather worried that openWindow setup is too fragile, and ends up causing issues where on slow network something doesn't work, but on fast network, which web devs probably use, things work just fine because data is transferred fast enough so that script etc are loaded before sw's message to client window is processed.
  329. # [14:56] * Joins: Guest63 (~textual@assist.ro)
  330. # [14:56] <smaug____> (and better to fix the API sooner than later)
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  333. # [14:57] <smaug____> explicit ready() call, or implicit ready at 'load' time might work quite well
  334. # [14:58] <smaug____> (explicit ready() before 'load' would override the implicit ready call)
  335. # [14:59] * smaug____ files a bug
  336. # [15:00] <smaug____> ah, there is https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/728
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  343. # [15:12] <JakeA> smaug____: cheers, I've added this to our TPAC agenda
  344. # [15:12] <annevk> smaug____: yeah, it seems better to wait for DOMContentLoaded or some such
  345. # [15:14] <JakeA> I guess having the SW open a bit longer isn't a performance issue here, as the SW will likely be used for the new window's fetch. At the very least the browser needs to be running
  346. # [15:16] <annevk> If anyone is interested in security of Window and Location: https://github.com/annevk/html-cross-origin-objects
  347. # [15:16] <annevk> (Window is not yet covered, waiting on some feedback for Location first.)
  348. # [15:26] <smaug____> Window and Location ... sounds complicated ;)
  349. # [15:26] <annevk> smaug____: quite
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  436. # [18:35] <Domenic> annevk: why bound functions?
  437. # [18:35] <annevk> Domenic: that looked close to what I wanted...
  438. # [18:35] <Domenic> what did you want?
  439. # [18:36] <annevk> Domenic: "a wrapper function" is that clear enough?
  440. # [18:36] <Domenic> not sure... what is a wrapper function...
  441. # [18:36] <annevk> Domenic: function() { actualFunction(); }
  442. # [18:36] <Domenic> got it
  443. # [18:36] <Domenic> hmm
  444. # [18:37] <annevk> Oh yeah, WeakMap is wrong
  445. # [18:37] <annevk> Bummer
  446. # [18:38] <Domenic> Separate question: so originalDesc.[[Get]] is a function from another realm, and crossOriginGet is supposed to be instantiated in the current realm?
  447. # [18:38] <annevk> Is there a way to get the key removed if the value is GC'd?
  448. # [18:38] <Domenic> I think everything related to that is correct as-is, but it's quite implicit because of how ES is usually implicit about current realm
  449. # [18:38] <annevk> Or some pattern?
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  451. # [18:39] <Domenic> Hmm
  452. # [18:39] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, I forgot about that, crossOriginGet needs to be from the current realm and have the correct Function.prototype thing
  453. # [18:40] <Domenic> I think it does that automatically
  454. # [18:40] <annevk> Domenic: that's why it's wrapping
  455. # [18:40] <Domenic> But adding a NOTE might be helpful since it's implicit
  456. # [18:40] <annevk> I will file an issue for now
  457. # [18:40] <Domenic> And probably replace bound function with something different
  458. # [18:40] <Domenic> bound functions are weird, they don't have a varying `this`
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  461. # [18:41] <Domenic> so you want a tuple -> list map where if the list gets deleted the items in the tuple are not held by GC
  462. # [18:41] <Domenic> ?
  463. # [18:41] <Domenic> no, not the list gets deleted
  464. # [18:41] <Domenic> if all the items in the list get GCed
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  466. # [18:46] <annevk> Domenic: it's a tuple -> Property Descriptor Record map
  467. # [18:46] <annevk> Domenic: and if everything in the Property Descriptor Record map is no longer used, the whole map entry can be GC'd
  468. # [18:46] <Domenic> The map is keys -> propdescs? makes sense
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  470. # [18:47] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, since that is what GetOwnProperty returns that seemed easiest
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  472. # [18:47] <Domenic> Wait, is it a map or is it just a single propdesc
  473. # [18:48] <Domenic> [[GetOwnProperty]] seems to imply just a single propdesc
  474. # [18:48] <annevk> The internal structure is a map of tuple -> propdesc
  475. # [18:48] <Domenic> i think i understand
  476. # [18:48] <annevk> [[GetOwnProperty]] returns one propdesc out of that map at most
  477. # [18:48] <Domenic> what is in the tuple? anything object-like we can use?
  478. # [18:49] <annevk> no
  479. # [18:49] <Domenic> then i don't think we should worry about GCing the keys
  480. # [18:49] <Domenic> if they are just primitives then there is no notion of them being allocated or not
  481. # [18:49] <annevk> origin + effective script origin or maybe just effective script origin
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  483. # [18:50] <Domenic> cool
  484. # [18:50] <Domenic> but we ... still don't want to hold strong references to the propdescs?
  485. # [18:50] <Domenic> (and more specifically to the functions)
  486. # [18:50] <annevk> yeah
  487. # [18:51] <Domenic> hmm, but that seems like it would expose GC:
  488. # [18:51] <Domenic> I do const x = Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(location, "href").get;
  489. # [18:51] <annevk> e.g. if I do document.domain = "x.x.x.com" and then later do document.domain = "x.x.com" it makes little sense for the Location object to keep functions alive I can never possibly access again
  490. # [18:51] <Domenic> I see
  491. # [18:52] <annevk> sure, if you have a ref to them, they shouldn't be collected
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  494. # [18:52] <annevk> this is mostly about them getting stored once you access them and then there not being a way for them to get removed again
  495. # [18:52] <annevk> other than GC, which I thought WeakMap would address but really doesn't
  496. # [18:52] <Domenic> I'm tempted to go with something a bit handwavy about GC behavior instead of saying that we have found the perfect data structure
  497. # [18:52] <Domenic> Something like:
  498. # [18:54] <annevk> I do see now why I was totally wrong about WeakMap
  499. # [18:54] <Domenic> "The UA should allow the property descriptors their accessor functions stored in [[crossOriginPropertyDescriptorMap]] to be garbage collected if no references to them exist and it is not possible for them to be accessed." Then give 2+ examples, one where the author did window.x = Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(location, "href").get so it must stay alive,
  500. # [18:54] <Domenic> and one where they did document.domain so now it can be collected.
  501. # [18:55] <annevk> Seems reasonable
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  505. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: so for Window, my thinking is that once Location.md is better I try to duplicate the text I have there first and create a WindowProxy.md based off it
  506. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: then we review that
  507. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: then we can attempt a potential %AllenWirfsBrockObjectMagicHappens% merger?
  508. # [19:04] <annevk> Domenic: and even if we decide not to merge the objects (mostly to avoid duplicate [[PreventExtensions]] ( ) and friends), things like CrossOriginPropertyDescriptor will be reused of course
  509. # [19:05] <annevk> that's all I got for today, more tomorrow, I'm sure
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  515. # [19:23] <Domenic> annevk: yeah that sounds like a good plan.
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  531. # [19:51] <Joseph__Silber> TabAtkins, is it possible to use `justify-content: center` for a multi-line flexbox, and have the last line left aligned to the edge of the previous line??
  532. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> Joseph__Silber: Nope. Handling the "last line problem" will happen in Flexbox 2.
  533. # [19:51] <Joseph__Silber> K. Thanks.
  534. # [19:51] <Joseph__Silber> Guess the only way to solve it now is with another wrapper.
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  637. # [23:44] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  646. # [23:58] * Quits: jahman (~woops@85-168-250-201.rev.numericable.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
  647. # Session Close: Wed Oct 21 00:00:00 2015

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