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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 14 09:51:53 2016
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [09:51] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [09:51] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  5. # [09:51] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
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  10. # [10:58] <zcorpan> hmm the only way i can think of for testing coords parsing is to .focus() the area and use reftests
  11. # [11:00] <zcorpan> or actually, maybe elementFromPoint
  12. # [11:02] <zcorpan> elementFromPoint always returns the <img> in gecko, known bug iirc
  13. # [11:05] <gsnedders> wait what
  14. # [11:05] <gsnedders> kinda odd bug
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  26. # [11:49] <zcorpan> i wonder how Edge copes with the web with this bug https://github.com/Microsoft/ChakraCore/issues/20
  27. # [11:53] <gsnedders> could be handling it in the HTML parser or something weird
  28. # [12:01] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess it would be good to get feedback from some browsers on the new coords algorithm
  29. # [12:01] <annevk> zcorpan: i.e., whether that's something they're willing to align on
  30. # [12:01] <annevk> zcorpan: if we have two browsers, that'd be good enough
  31. # [12:02] <zcorpan> annevk: yep, i can ping some
  32. # [12:08] <annevk> https://plus.google.com/+JirkaKosek/posts/4nh8VGRfrz1 hahaha
  33. # [12:08] <annevk> Oh my, Hixie commented too
  34. # [12:18] <ondras> heh, Jirka Kosek
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  36. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that seems likely to be handled at a higher level
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  39. # [12:43] <zcorpan> anyone know weinig@apple.com's github handle?
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  45. # [12:55] <annevk> hober might know ^^
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  55. # [13:46] <yoav_> Anyone knows where window.top (DOMWindow) in general is specced?
  56. # [13:46] * yoav_ is now known as yoav
  57. # [13:48] <Ms2ger> HTML
  58. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> Do you need a more specific link?
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  63. # [14:04] <yoav> Ms2ger: Got it, thanks! :)
  64. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> Np
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  97. # [15:38] <annevk> Domenic: who wrote the latest JavaScript URL parser again? Might want to look at https://github.com/whatwg/url/issues/77
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  102. # [15:52] <frewsxcv> what is the expected output of this? https://gist.github.com/frewsxcv/8f440c078b5912d8ae21
  103. # [15:52] <frewsxcv> chrome and firefox currently differ
  104. # [15:53] <Domenic> annevk: Sebmaster, yeah. We'll track it and update wpt.
  105. # [15:53] <annevk> <3
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  108. # [15:55] <annevk> frewsxcv: per https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-htmlcollection the property names don't enumerate
  109. # [15:56] <annevk> frewsxcv: so I'm guessing Gecko is correct
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  145. # [17:57] <mounir> annevk: for the inline table, should we wait to get philipj's opinion?
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  153. # [18:08] <annevk> mounir: I guess that's fine, but you'll still need to address how to exactly navigate the table
  154. # [18:09] <Domenic> annevk: I don't get it, it seems clear to me?
  155. # [18:10] <annevk> Domenic: we are much more precise elsewhere, e.g., "... to the value given in the second column of the row of the following table whose first column contains the /new playback state/."
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  157. # [18:11] <annevk> Domenic: and even that is not as precise as it doesn't account for cells...
  158. # [18:11] <Domenic> well ok, I guess for consistency we can just copy that wording, but it seems really overkill
  159. # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: I think that extra context helps a lot, especially if you don't have the table in front of you visually
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  161. # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: also, for someone who always complains about vagueness of non-ES specifications, I'm disappointed
  162. # [18:13] <Domenic> annevk: I really don't feel like anyone needs instructions on how to read a clearly-labeled table.
  163. # [18:13] <mounir> as someone who never complains about vagueness, I find this overkill :)
  164. # [18:13] <mounir> but I will apply the change request :)
  165. # [18:14] <annevk> Domenic: it doesn't really follow from first principles to how it should be read
  166. # [18:15] <Domenic> I'm not really that into debating this but I don't understand what first principles are involved in reading a table
  167. # [18:15] <annevk> If you don't say what the value should be set to, it's ambiguous
  168. # [18:16] <Domenic> The current wording is "the exception matching the given <var>error</var> in the following table" the table has a clearly labeled column "exception"
  169. # [18:16] <Domenic> whatevs, don't really care
  170. # [18:17] <mounir> annevk: btw, fwiw, your example is slightly falacious
  171. # [18:17] <mounir> annevk: it's a table with three column, way less clear what the association is ;)
  172. # [18:20] <annevk> mounir: since you want to continue debating the point I recommend you search for "second column" throughout the HTML standard to find many examples of us doing exactly this for two column tables
  173. # [18:21] * annevk is also somewhat dubious about the ", then" thing having editorial precedent, but okay
  174. # [18:21] <mounir> annevk: updated
  175. # [18:22] <annevk> mounir: you also want to use ":"
  176. # [18:22] <annevk> mounir: and since <var>error</var> is a variable it doesn't need "the"
  177. # [18:23] <annevk> mounir: Domenic: perhaps we should wait for foolip since he had some thoughts on the timing stuff, no?
  178. # [18:24] <mounir> annevk: that sounds reasonable to wait for him
  179. # [18:24] <Domenic> annevk: I tend to agree; although it seems likely it won't impact anything (or that any changes would be made as part of a bigger change), this feels like foolip's area of expertise and it would be good to get his sign off
  180. # [18:26] <mounir> annevk: "the" removed. I didn't use ":" because it wasn't used in the example I saw
  181. # [18:27] <annevk> I guess there is some inconsistency on that, ugh
  182. # [18:27] <mounir> annevk: apart from 4.8.13.12.3, only "." is used
  183. # [18:27] <mounir> (in embedded-content.html that is)
  184. # [18:28] <annevk> Yeah, it isn't often in the entire spec, still seems better in a way, but I guess it's fine either way
  185. # [18:28] <annevk> Perhaps one day a real grammar nitpicker will discover us and help us out
  186. # [18:29] <mounir> given the size of the document, I hope for them that they will look, shiver and go away :)
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  192. # [18:44] <annevk> Domenic: who are you looking for review from before landing?
  193. # [18:44] <annevk> Domenic: for <script type=module>
  194. # [18:45] <annevk> Domenic: would it help if I went through it again tomorrow? Or might it be better if I wait for Adam to give it another look?
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  197. # [18:48] <Domenic> annevk: yeah I was hoping mainly for you and Adam before merging. A review would be lovely; I will poke Adam too.
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  217. # [20:08] <jyasskin> Re https://github.com/WebBluetoothCG/web-bluetooth/pull/198, are there any examples of specs that assign a platform object's global environment from its parent as bz would like?
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  219. # [20:22] <annevk> jyasskin: ImageData is an example where browsers disagree
  220. # [20:23] <annevk> jyasskin: see one of my PRs against wpt
  221. # [20:23] <jyasskin> Yeah, I don't doubt that browsers have been inconsistent about this (I assume between inheriting from a parent vs the entry settings object). I'm looking for wording to copy, if possible.
  222. # [20:24] <annevk> jyasskin: doubt that exists, have been trying to get IDL to define it
  223. # [20:25] <jyasskin> Ok, if IDL is going to define it, then I should probably wait in Web Bluetooth until the needed wording is more clear.
  224. # [20:26] <jyasskin> (IDL currently says "It is the responsibility of specifications using Web IDL to state which global environment (or, by proxy, which global object) each platform object is associated with.")
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  226. # [20:29] <annevk> Yeah, it's a bit of a mess 😟
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  233. # [20:55] <gsnedders> Important real world questions: how do you tell a bunch of people their code is a mess politely?
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  236. # [21:22] <jamesr_> gsnedders: lemme know when you find out, please
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  252. # [22:06] <darobin> gsnedders: "Ah, yes, I did that in PHP a few years ago."
  253. # [22:07] <gsnedders> darobin: don't worry, half of this /is/ PHP
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  255. # [22:07] <darobin> oh well there you go
  256. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Hey at least https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2016Jan/att-0004/graph.png doesn't look too bad as a dependency graph!
  257. # [22:08] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-157-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  258. # [22:08] <gsnedders> It's acyclic!
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  260. # [22:09] <darobin> lol
  261. # [22:11] <gsnedders> I feel like it's over modularised, really
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  272. # [23:07] <rbyers> annevk: What's your approach to / thoughts on conformance tests for the DOM spec?
  273. # [23:07] <rbyers> I was able to find only https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/DOMEvents ...
  274. # [23:14] <gsnedders> rbyers: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/dom?
  275. # [23:14] <gsnedders> rbyers: searching case-sensitively? there's a number of dom* directories at the top level
  276. # [23:15] <rbyers> gsnedders: Yeah just found that one too. But is the W3C / WhatWG distinction important?
  277. # [23:15] <gsnedders> rbyers: not really
  278. # [23:15] <rbyers> Eg. presumably new tests are added only after W3C snapshots are taken of the DOM spec?
  279. # [23:15] <gsnedders> rbyers: don't read much into it being under the W3C org on GitHub
  280. # [23:15] <gsnedders> rbyers: no, that isn't the case
  281. # [23:16] <rbyers> Ah, cool. So it's reasonable for me to submit a PR to add tests for a new feature currently only in the WhatWG version?
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  283. # [23:16] <gsnedders> rbyers: yes
  284. # [23:16] <rbyers> Perfect. I'm still planning on waiting until the features ships in at least one browser (probably silly to do sooner than that).
  285. # [23:16] <rbyers> Thanks!
  286. # [23:17] <gsnedders> rbyers: probably better to do before that so the feature gets testsd!
  287. # [23:19] <rbyers> Ok, happy to prepare it sooner - just figured no-one would want to land a test that fails everywhere (although I'd at least manually test it passing with the polyfill). In this case (EventListenerOptions and passive event listeners) it probably doesn't matter much since we (blink) will be the first to ship, and the ones writing/running the tests, etc.
  288. # [23:19] <rbyers> Still, would like to do this right.
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  291. # [23:24] <gsnedders> rbyers: well, the long-term aim is still something along the lines of you guys running all of w-p-t and directly adding tests to it as part of your development, so the tests would land in w-p-t at around the same time as the impl lands in Blink
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  293. # [23:24] <rbyers> Yeah, that would be awesome. I understand that's what Mozilla does.
  294. # [23:25] <rbyers> I'm trying to better understand the status here and hopefully my team can help push this along.
  295. # [23:25] <gsnedders> I'm happy to do anything that will help you guys get somewhere with that, FWIW, as I've said before
  296. # [23:27] <rbyers> Excellent, thanks! I lack a bunch of the context here, who on blink have you been talking to about this? I know dpranke and jsbell were pushing on this at one time, but I don't think there's a ton of active movement right now.
  297. # [23:27] <gsnedders> uhhhhhh
  298. # [23:28] <gsnedders> this was at TPAC I last spoke to anyone about it
  299. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Jeffrey (is that jyasskin? I forget surname) and someone else.
  300. # [23:28] <jyasskin> Yep
  301. # [23:28] <jyasskin> What?
  302. # [23:29] <gsnedders> jyasskin: Blink, running w-p-t
  303. # [23:29] <jsbell> yeah, trying to staff up a team to make blink's use of w-p-t better
  304. # [23:29] <gsnedders> it was you I spoke to at TPAC about that, I think
  305. # [23:29] <jyasskin> Sam Uong was the more likely implementer. I'm not sure what his state is now.
  306. # [23:30] <jsbell> rbyers: I can give you a brain dump. Basically just lots of stuff to do, needs dedicated attention.
  307. # [23:30] <rbyers> Great, thanks guys. Given that my team works on input, we're mostly blocked on the fact that we have no standard way to automated input tests (and manual tests are almost useless IMHO). We're working on extensions to webdriver for this, but once that's unblocked I plan to try to really push our use of web-platform-tests.
  308. # [23:30] <gsnedders> how much of it actually involves Google testing infra, and how much can be done by external people?
  309. # [23:31] <jsbell> gsnedders: most of the work to run w-p-t sanely is code changes in the chromium repo, so a chromium committer (not necessarily googler), but it's not dependent on changes to wpt or anything like that
  310. # [23:31] <rbyers> jsbell: I know we talked about this awhile back. Not much sense in my team making a major effort when 95% of our tests would be manual, but hopefully we'll be done the first stage of the WebDriver effort this quarter - so I reach out then.
  311. # [23:31] <jsbell> 10-4
  312. # [23:31] <gsnedders> jsbell: okay, that's what I thought
  313. # [23:33] <rbyers> Ok, gotta run. For now I'll make sure we're adding WPT tests for the spec changes we drive, and importing the automated ones to run in blink's repo. I definitely want to help more when the automation is ready though - maybe Q2.
  314. # [23:33] <rbyers> Thanks!
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