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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 20 00:00:00 2016
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  102. # [06:40] <annevk> aklein: not all of those, so a bit?
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  145. # [09:18] <annevk> console.log() becoming a standard seems to excite more folks on Twitter than anything else we ever did
  146. # [09:19] <ondras> :-)
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  167. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: I guess it's something more directly tangible and familiar to most devs
  168. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> sice everybody who does web dev knows about console.log() and has used it
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  170. # [10:45] <annevk> Whoa, it seems DreamHost allows enabling Let's Encrypt
  171. # [10:46] <annevk> Trying it out now... If that works Hixie will be so pleased he won't have to copy-and-paste certificates around dozens of domains
  172. # [10:46] <ondras> a quick CSP question -- does my CSP policy apply also *inside* of an iframe that itself sits on an allowed-but-different domain?
  173. # [10:46] <annevk> ondras: nope
  174. # [10:47] <ondras> annevk: nice, thanks. makes sense.
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  183. # [11:05] <annevk> TabAtkins: another example, I just updated bikeshed, and now "URL" and "URLs" are no longer the same term
  184. # [11:07] <annevk> or fragment/fragments
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  186. # [11:13] <zcorpan> annevk: with an updated bikeshed, for dom i get FATAL ERROR: No 'idl' refs found for 'addEventListener()' that are marked for export.
  187. # [11:15] <annevk> zcorpan: I have no idea how bikeshed works and apparently TabAtkins doesn't run regression tests
  188. # [11:15] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: ^
  189. # [11:27] <zcorpan> https://travis-ci.org/tabatkins/bikeshed ... not sure what the expected output is there, but it says both FATAL ERROR and ✔ All tests passed.
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  195. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: FYI https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2016Jan/0019.html
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  197. # [12:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: intredasting. seems like a spec bug. can you file one?
  198. # [12:04] <zcorpan> i suppose we don't want to allow <template><p lolfoobar=""></template>
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  200. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> sure but what about his real example of <img> without src?
  201. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> I will ask him to file a spec bug for it
  202. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> because the validator is conforming to the spec on this
  203. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> and I'm not sure what sane spec change we could actually make for this
  204. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> as far as the validator behavior I could create something that just drops all <template> elements and their subtrees from the document before running validation on it against the RelaxNG schema
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  206. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> we don't actually have that many required attributes, so one way I could handle it is to make the RelaxNG schema make them optional but make the Java assertions-checking code report errors for them unless they are in <template> subtrees
  207. # [12:16] <ritsyy> while running the build script i am getting "curl: (55) Send failure: Broken pipe" this error
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  209. # [12:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: ^^ turns out connectivity is not stable everywhere which is another good reason to reduce external dependencies
  210. # [12:20] <annevk> MikeSmith: ritsyy: perhaps we should also document options such as -n directly on https://github.com/whatwg/html-build
  211. # [12:21] <ritsyy> annevk: yes it is very much needed,
  212. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK yeah I will put together an html-build PR for that tomorrow (should have had it done before now but been distracted by working on validator stuffーadding support for CSP checking and some other things)
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  214. # [12:25] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah we should change the spec to be somewhat laxer on attributes in <template>
  215. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK I'll ask them to file the bug since they have real use cases to explain
  216. # [12:29] <zcorpan> thx
  217. # [12:29] <ritsyy> annevk: -n also not working in my case
  218. # [12:30] <ritsyy> again there is the broken pipe error script stops almost everytime at 86% or so
  219. # [12:33] <annevk> Hmm, perhaps even then there is some network stuff
  220. # [12:34] <ritsyy> annevk: yeah
  221. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> ritsyy: do you know what exactly it's doing when it hangs at 86%?
  222. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I mean, which step
  223. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> if you run it with --verbose it might be more clear
  224. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> that will be super-verbose but if you look at the last few lines of console output before that 86% point, that might show it
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  227. # [12:49] <ritsyy> MikeSmith: https://paste.kde.org/pfom38ygc here are these lines but i didn't got any idea about it
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  235. # [12:57] <zcorpan> maybe it works better if wattsi is installed locally?
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  237. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> ah yeah if you don't have wattsi installed locally then it certainly is going to require network access to send the request to the wattsi server and receive the resulting output
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  264. # [14:32] <ritsyy> MikeSmith: zcorpan okay, yes i will install wattsi locally then, thanks!
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  359. # [17:00] <TabAtkins> annevk: lolwat, I tested *precisely that*. The change just made it so that *if* I find an exact match, I don't also go look for variants (producing confusing errors if you have two <dfn>s that are variants of each other). I'll debug on the bus this morning, sorry for the trouble.
  360. # [17:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: noticed it for both URL and DOM, kinda surprised nobody else noticed this
  361. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> (Seriously, I verified that <dfn>foo</dfn> is still matching <a>foo</a> and <a>fooing</a>.)
  362. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> Dunno man, I was editting CSS specs all day and didn't run into any problems.
  363. # [17:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: I actually ended up fixing it for URL, by just adding <a lt> things
  364. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> Well you'll be able to revert that in about an hour when I figure out what the deal is.
  365. # [17:02] <annevk> but then DOM was much more complicated and became a whack-a-mole
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  372. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> I've told you in the past - don't fix around Bikeshed errors. I'm very fast in dealing with them, you'll just waste your time and get frustrated trying to deal with them and then revert.
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  375. # [17:14] <annevk> Well, I was already frustrated, but yes, I did waste time
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  377. # [17:15] <Domenic> It would be really great if e.g. the DOM source was checked in to Bikeshed and it was a regression test that it have to be rebaselined every change and sanity checked.
  378. # [17:21] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Yeah, I've been meaning to put some full specs into the testsuite for that purpose, and just haven't done it yet. I'll dump DOM in after I fix this.
  379. # [17:22] <Domenic> \o/
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  381. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> Oof, working on DOM, I'm like "how did this *ever* build cleanly?"
  382. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> Oh dang, I see the error. This is... annoying.
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  384. # [17:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: did you know that your download all PRs script also includes closed PRs?
  385. # [17:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: would be nice if those could be excluded somehow
  386. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> annevk, heyo
  387. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> First step in https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#the-open%28%29-method , how does that work in Workers?
  388. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> With https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/workers.html#set-up-a-worker-environment-settings-object
  389. # [17:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: workers used to have a responsible document too, if that's gone, not sure
  390. # [17:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: time for an issue I guess and some thinking
  391. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> annevk, you filing?
  392. # [17:52] <annevk> sure
  393. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> Great, thanks
  394. # [17:53] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/xhr/issues/47
  395. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> <3
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  397. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> annevk: Pushing a revert on that commit now, as I'll need to do something differently to make it work properly.
  398. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> And DOM works now.
  399. # [18:00] <annevk> ta
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  401. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/546
  402. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> Poor avidrissman
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  406. # [18:16] <Domenic> He sits next to me in Chrome NYC
  407. # [18:16] <Domenic> it was fun times yesterday learning about this
  408. # [18:18] <zcorpan> anyone have opinions on what JSON.stringify(new DOMMatrix(...)) should do? see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2016JanMar/0014.html
  409. # [18:20] <zcorpan> philipj: ^
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  411. # [18:21] <zcorpan> (WebKitCSSMatrix serializes as {} fwiw)
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  413. # [18:21] <miketaylr> i was going to suggest whatever WebKitCSSMatrix does, because i'm lazy
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  416. # [18:23] <zcorpan> miketaylr: in the thread it was argued that all geometry objects should have serializers
  417. # [18:23] <zcorpan> that are more useful than {}
  418. # [18:24] <miketaylr> yeah {} is pretty useless
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  422. # [18:26] <zcorpan> i'm tempted to switch to serializer = { attribute }; for matrices also
  423. # [18:26] <Domenic> zcorpan: I see two approaches in general: serialize everything and serialize only the minimal amount needed to reconstruct. You seem to have gone with serialize everything elsewhere so being consistent with that makes sense to me.
  424. # [18:27] <zcorpan> Domenic: yeah. thx
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  426. # [18:31] <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/fxtf-drafts/commit/7b5664a99dff3a3c3afd5085c65fea7ad7791d9c
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  431. # [18:38] <zcorpan> Domenic: can you check https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/514 ? :-)
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  440. # [18:54] <Domenic> Will do
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  504. # [19:45] <nikkibee> hey annevk I had a question about steps 6 and 7 for a redirect status under https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-fetch
  505. # [19:45] <nikkibee> er, 7 and 8*
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  507. # [19:46] <nikkibee> 7. If request's redirect count is twenty, return a network error.
  508. # [19:46] <nikkibee> 8. Increase request's redirect count by one.
  509. # [19:46] <nikkibee> this means that on the 21st redirect a network error is returned
  510. # [19:46] <nikkibee> since redirect count starts at 0
  511. # [19:46] <nikkibee> is this intentional? cause if the steps were switched, it'd return a network error on the 20th redirect
  512. # [19:47] <nikkibee> 20 or 21 is arbitrary (afaict) either way, but 20 just seems easier to logic about cause of how we work with numbers
  513. # [19:48] <Domenic> I wonder which (if either) browsers implement... I had no idea that was a thing
  514. # [19:48] <Domenic> I guess I've seen the "too many redirects" for page loads before
  515. # [19:48] <Domenic> But I didn't realize it would apply to all fetches.
  516. # [19:49] <nikkibee> well, it only applies to fetches that start redirecting
  517. # [19:49] <nikkibee> I just want to be sure of the number because I'm writing some tests for redirects in Servo, and I want to make sure I test the boundaries correctly
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  519. # [19:51] <Domenic> Anyone want to review the commit message for <script type="module">? https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/443/commits
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  559. # [20:54] <annevk> nikkibee: that should maybe be nineteen indeed
  560. # [20:54] <annevk> nikkibee: not really around now though
  561. # [20:55] <nikkibee> annevk: that's alright, I'm glad I was on to something about it
  562. # [20:55] <nikkibee> should I open an issue about it?
  563. # [20:55] <annevk> nikkibee: PR?
  564. # [20:55] <annevk> nikkibee: but yes
  565. # [20:55] <nikkibee> sure thing
  566. # [20:56] <nikkibee> I think switching the order of the steps would make more sense too
  567. # [20:56] <nikkibee> because stopping at 19 is not obvious unless you think about how it's 0-indexed
  568. # [20:56] <annevk> nikkibee: so actually
  569. # [20:56] <annevk> nikkibee: there's an open PR by me
  570. # [20:56] <annevk> nikkibee: that factors out this redirect business
  571. # [20:56] <nikkibee> oh! no more redirect_count you mean?
  572. # [20:57] <annevk> nikkibee: and changes a couple of things
  573. # [20:57] <annevk> nikkibee: no that is kept
  574. # [20:57] <nikkibee> annevk: what does it change?
  575. # [20:57] <annevk> nikkibee: it changes processing for "manual"
  576. # [20:58] <annevk> nikkibee: but it mostly makes it possible for HTML to reuse that algorithm to follow navigation redirects
  577. # [21:00] <annevk> ttyl
  578. # [21:02] <nikkibee> see ya, thanks for the info
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  586. # [21:09] <jarek> Hi
  587. # [21:10] <jarek> Is the problem of relative URLs in web components already resolved?
  588. # [21:18] <smaug____> no zcorpan
  589. # [21:19] <smaug____> https://drafts.csswg.org/cssom-view/#dom-document-scrollingelement could use a small tweak and define what root element means there
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  605. # [21:38] <annevk> jarek: nope
  606. # [21:41] <jarek> annevk: is it delayed util https://github.com/whatwg/loader spec is finished?
  607. # [21:41] <jarek> annevk: or is it a problem that can't be solved at all and we will have to stick with directory naming conventions?
  608. # [21:41] <jarek> s/util/until
  609. # [21:43] <annevk> jarek: it would require changes to DOM, but unclear how that works well together with script, indeed, which uses base from execution environment
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  623. # [22:19] <smaug____> https://drafts.csswg.org/cssom-view/#dom-document-scrollingelement is so weirdly written. scrollableElement is body if body is _not_ potentially scrollable
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  628. # [22:38] <smaug____> rbyers: I don't understand blink's scrollableElement implementation
  629. # [22:38] <smaug____> or perhaps I'm reading the spec wrong
  630. # [22:39] <smaug____> it doesn't seem to care about overflow-x/y values
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  639. # [23:00] <rbyers> smaug___: Blink intentionally doesn't exactly match the spec here (which is kind of the point of document.scrollingElement) - unless ScrollTopLeftInterop is enabled - see https://dev.opera.com/articles/fixing-the-scrolltop-bug/
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  642. # [23:01] <rbyers> ... but yeah the pre-existing rules about how body behaves are weird - scrollingElement just reflects that.
  643. # [23:02] <rbyers> ... basically if you have "html, body {overflow: scroll}" then there are two independently scrollable things. But if you just have "body {overflow: scroll }" then that applies to the viewport (behaves the same as just "html {overflow: scroll}" I believe).
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  645. # [23:03] <rbyers> But none of this really matters for the definition of scrollableElement. All that really matters for that API is that document.scrollingElement reflects the element whose scrollTop changes when you do window.scrollTo.
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  647. # [23:04] <rbyers> The spec over-complicates this by repeating the complex legacy details in both the definition of scrollingElement and the definition of scrollTop (see https://drafts.csswg.org/cssom-view/#dom-element-scrolltop).
  648. # [23:05] <rbyers> My advice to Simon was to just move all the complexity from scrollTop/scrollLeft (which has long been there for legacy reasons) into the defintion of scrollingElement, then write everything else in terms of "if 'e' is the scrollingElement". That's what I did in the blink implementation.
  649. # [23:05] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  650. # [23:06] <rbyers> (with the added complexity that we have to support ScrollTopLeftInterop being disabled - for now, I hope to ship it this quarter).
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  661. # [23:23] <smaug____> rbyers: well I can't see it ever matching the spec
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  663. # [23:24] <smaug____> but I don't understand why this property should be added if blink doesn't implement it per spec
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  665. # [23:24] <smaug____> or in other words, I guess I should just implement it the same way it is in blink
  666. # [23:25] <smaug____> but I'm not totally lost with this property
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  669. # [23:29] <rbyers> smaug___: If all browsers implemented scrollTop according to spec, there would only be minor utility to this API.
  670. # [23:29] <rbyers> WebKit has a long standing bug where scrollTop/Left behave as if the page was in quirksmode (i.e. body.scrollTop==window.scrollY, documentElement.scrollTop==0) even when it's not (should be documentElement.scrollTop==window.scrollY, body.scrollTop==0).
  671. # [23:29] <rbyers> It's because sites have come to depend on WebKit's long-standing bug where scrollTop behaves as per quirksmode for ALL pages that we need this API.
  672. # [23:30] <rbyers> We've successfully used this API to get sites to migrate away from depending on code like "isWebKit ? body : documentElement".
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  674. # [23:33] <smaug____> rbyers: sure, scrollTop and those are old stuff
  675. # [23:33] <smaug____> but why isn't blink implementing this new API per spec?
  676. # [23:34] <smaug____> isn't that the whole point that there is some API which all the browsers implement the same way?
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  678. # [23:34] <smaug____> I guess not in this case
  679. # [23:36] <rbyers> It does implement it per spec when ScrollTopLeftInterop mode is enabled, which I'm trying to ship (but can only do once I've gotten enough sites updated).
  680. # [23:36] <smaug____> it is not implementing per spec when that is enabled
  681. # [23:36] <rbyers> BTW it's weird quirksmode cases like this http://jsbin.com/hocuno/edit?html,css,js,output where scrollingElement should be null
  682. # [23:37] <smaug____> blink doesn't care about the overflowx/y values of html element
  683. # [23:37] <smaug____> it checks only body element
  684. # [23:37] <rbyers> because in that case neither document.body.scrollTop nor document.documentElement.scrollTop will match window.scrollY
  685. # [23:38] <rbyers> Are you saying that just based on code inspection, or do you have a repro?
  686. # [23:38] <smaug____> rbyers: based on code inspection
  687. # [23:38] <rbyers> There's some funky logic elsewhere in the code that promotes styles from documentElement to body or vice versa
  688. # [23:38] <smaug____> (I don't even know how to enable RuntimeEnabledFeatures::scrollTopLeftInteropEnabled())
  689. # [23:38] <rbyers> Try to build a repro
  690. # [23:39] <smaug____> huhuh
  691. # [23:39] <smaug____> so blink is doing some magic there too
  692. # [23:39] <rbyers> You can enable that flag easily by setting chrome://flags/#enable-experimental-web-platform-features
  693. # [23:39] <rbyers> Or explicitly by running with --enable-blink-features=ScrollTopLeftInterop
  694. # [23:39] <smaug____> ah, that, thanks
  695. # [23:39] <rbyers> NP
  696. # [23:41] * yury`m is thinking "worker code that holds cross-thread refs to promises" statement along with Domenic streams-from-main-thread-to-worker statement
  697. # [23:42] <Domenic> ?
  698. # [23:42] <rbyers> If you can come up with a repro that's not per spec, I'll definitely investigate. There's a bunch of annoying complexity / long-standing legacy here that was previously exposed only via scrollTop/scrollLeft behavior. scrollingElement should just reflect that behavior (i.e. so we should be able to compare scrollTop behavior between blink with
  699. # [23:42] <rbyers> ScrollTopLeftInterop enabled and Firefox - should match exactly)
  700. # [23:42] <yury`m> Domenic: there was your vimeo video about mozilla thinking about moving streams processing in the worker
  701. # [23:43] <yury`m> do you have more context?
  702. # [23:44] <Domenic> yury`m: I think it was https://w3c.github.io/mediacapture-worker/
  703. # [23:44] <yury`m> Domenic: at 44:20 of https://vimeo.com/132786072
  704. # [23:50] * yury`m posted to wrong channel his thoughts, so goes back to where he came from to think there :)
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  708. # Session Close: Thu Jan 21 00:00:00 2016

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