/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2016-01-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 25 00:00:00 2016
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  30. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: great response from Jonas in TAG discussion about CORS credentials handling https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2016Jan/0015.html
  31. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: mnot is really not helping in those discussions; instead he seems to just be reinforcing misconceptions https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2016Jan/0012.html
  32. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> > "It's pretty impenetrable now, and even security folks don't profess to know all of the details behind CORS any more."
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  34. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> it's true that a lot of web devs don't (yet) know they need to use withCredentials with XHR to get cookies set (or the "credentials" request option with fetch)
  35. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> e.g., on StackOverflow I think there is new question at least weekly or so where somebody is running into a problem where something's not working they way they expect and it turns out to be because they're not using withCredentials/credentials
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  37. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> so I think Jonas is right that some more awareness-raising is needed
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  48. # [03:19] <annevk> I'm not security folk, but I know how this works and why…
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  62. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I don't know what motivates those comments from mnot. It seems like he's being disingenuous because it's a bit hard to believe he really thinks it's that "impenetrable".
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  64. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> I remember how outspoken he was in opposition to the original Access Control spec back in the beginning but I'd thought we were way past that now. Water under the bridge
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  67. # [04:36] <annevk> Doesn't matter I guess, it's there
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  134. # [10:38] <ondras> several questions re. iframe sandboxing
  135. # [10:38] <ondras> not sure if this is the proper place to ask
  136. # [10:39] <ondras> serving potentially dangerous ads (generic html+css+js soup); is a sandboxed iframe the correct way to go?
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  145. # [10:58] <philipj> zcorpan: what were you saying to me a few days ago? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ is down
  146. # [10:59] <philipj> ondras: yes, that sounds right. mkwst is the expert on these things
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  148. # [10:59] <philipj> or at least he added a sandbox keyword once :)
  149. # [11:00] <zcorpan> philipj: what did i eat a few days ago? lol don't remember :-)
  150. # [11:00] <ondras> :)
  151. # [11:00] <zcorpan> there's logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23whatwg though
  152. # [11:01] <ondras> cool.
  153. # [11:01] <ondras> Basically, I have two question re. iframe sandboxing
  154. # [11:01] <philipj> zcorpan: ok, you were asking about JSON.stringify(new DOMMatrix(...))
  155. # [11:01] <ondras> 1) the sandbox does not seem to apply if the iframe -- no src set -- was already appended to DOM
  156. # [11:01] <ondras> is this intentional?
  157. # [11:01] <philipj> zcorpan: did you figure out the answer yet?
  158. # [11:01] <zcorpan> philipj: yeah, just found it. i changed the spec so no need for more pondering :-)
  159. # [11:02] <ondras> 2) if I do not want my src-less iframe to be able to access the parent, how can I set its contents after sandboxing (unable to do contentDocument.write)?
  160. # [11:02] <ondras> via data-url src?
  161. # [11:02] <ondras> mkwst: ^ please :)
  162. # [11:03] <philipj> ondras: maybe some combination of sandbo and srcdoc, in the right order, will do what you want
  163. # [11:04] * ondras never tried srcdoc, let me read its docs first
  164. # [11:05] <philipj> zcorpan: great!
  165. # [11:06] <ondras> philipj: right, sounds like an answer to my #2 question! thanks.
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  170. # [11:12] <philipj> ondras: as for #1, the spec says "When an iframe element with a sandbox attribute has its nested browsing context created (before the initial about:blank Document is created), and when an iframe element's sandbox attribute is set or changed while it has a nested browsing context, the user agent must parse the sandboxing directive ..."
  171. # [11:12] <philipj> so it looks like you should be able to change it at any time
  172. # [11:13] <philipj> implementations might disagree, haven't checked
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  177. # [11:38] <ondras> philipj: I found this: These flags only take effect when the nested browsing context of the iframe is navigated. Removing them, or removing the entire sandbox attribute, has no effect on an already-loaded page.
  178. # [11:42] <zcorpan> ondras: set the attribute(s) before inserting the iframe to the document
  179. # [11:42] <mkwst> ondras: 1. The `sandbox` attribute only applies at load-time. Changing the attribute won't effect a running document.
  180. # [11:43] <ondras> okay
  181. # [11:44] <mkwst> ondras: 2. It seems like you'd get what you want by seting the `sandbox` attribute, navigating the frame to something (`about:blank`), and then populating it. `srcdoc` would certainly work as well.
  182. # [11:45] <mkwst> And `srcdoc` (or `data:text/html,...`, which boils down to the same thing) is likely your only option if you need to push the frame into a unique origin.
  183. # [11:45] <ondras> mkwst: okay. so if the sandboxing is in effect (the not-allow-same-origin one), the only way to populate is .src and .srcdoc, right?
  184. # [11:45] <mkwst> Blink (and, I think, WebKit) supports sandboxing a document into a unique origin via `<meta http-equiv="Content-Security-Policy" content="sandbox ...">`, but I don't believe that Firefox supports that.
  185. # [11:46] <ondras> I am looking for the widest browser support available
  186. # [11:46] <mkwst> (And it's currently a spec violation, but one I'm arguing against, so...)
  187. # [11:46] <mkwst> Then navigating to a data: URL is probably your best bet.
  188. # [11:46] <ondras> :-)
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  190. # [11:46] <ondras> perhaps "sandbox" and "srcdoc" have the same compatibility status
  191. # [11:47] <ondras> will check that
  192. # [11:47] <ondras> thanks a lot!
  193. # [11:47] <mkwst> I'm pretty sure they don't. But they might!
  194. # [11:47] <zcorpan> ondras: data: doesn't give you a unique origin in firefox, i believe
  195. # [11:47] <zcorpan> at least not effective script origin
  196. # [11:47] <ondras> zcorpan: I would have to set a sandbox, of course
  197. # [11:48] <zcorpan> yeah with sandbox i suppose it's safe
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  199. # [11:50] <zcorpan> caniuse says srcdoc is not supported in IE or Edge
  200. # [11:50] <zcorpan> but sandbox is
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  204. # [11:51] <zcorpan> but <iframe src=data:> doesn't work in IE/Edge either, does it? http://caniuse.com/#search=data%20uris
  205. # [11:52] <ondras> not good :/
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  208. # [11:54] <zcorpan> i tried <iframe src="data:text/css,hello"> but no luck :-D https://www.browserstack.com/screenshots/69af9c645a26c24974cea20db88e0f2c6a113e75/win8.1_ie_11.0.png
  209. # [11:55] <jgraham> Do blob urls work in edge?
  210. # [11:55] <ondras> this is interesting
  211. # [11:55] <ondras> https://github.com/jugglinmike/srcdoc-polyfill/blob/master/srcdoc-polyfill.js
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  214. # [11:59] <zcorpan> ondras: javascript: URLs don't have a unique origin
  215. # [12:01] <zcorpan> jgraham: http://caniuse.com/#search=blob%20url says yes
  216. # [12:01] <jgraham> You could perhaps use that to solve the problem then?
  217. # [12:02] <ondras> zcorpan: well even with the sandbox attribute?
  218. # [12:03] <zcorpan> ondras: yeah, was just going to say... probably need to test it, maybe it's fine
  219. # [12:03] <ondras> right
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  226. # [12:56] <nox> Are custom elements a thing that will indeed happen?
  227. # [12:58] <jgraham> Yeah
  228. # [12:58] <nox> Ah. :(
  229. # [12:59] <nox> So when will they land in Firefox?
  230. # [13:00] <jgraham> I think there's a pref
  231. # [13:01] <jgraham> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=889230
  232. # [13:03] <annevk> Details of custom elements will be discussed later today in Cupertino…
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  244. # [13:56] <zcorpan> ok i'm done spamming caniuse with PRs for today
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  264. # [14:55] <ondras> so
  265. # [14:55] <ondras> apparently populating a sandboxed iframe in IE/Edge is hard.
  266. # [14:55] <ondras> but works, in a VERY HACKY way
  267. # [14:56] <ondras> the vehicle for that is .src = javascript:stuff_that_returns_html_content
  268. # [14:56] <ondras> but this works only without sandboxing
  269. # [14:56] <ondras> but there is a way
  270. # [14:56] <ondras> 1) append; 2) enable sandbox; 3) set .src
  271. # [14:56] <ondras> this does not work in regular browsers (sandbox has to be enabled before appending), but works in IE/Edge
  272. # [14:56] <ondras> :/
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  275. # [15:02] <jgraham> ondras: Did you try blob urls?
  276. # [15:02] <ondras> jgraham: no
  277. # [15:03] <jgraham> ondras: Seems arguably less bad than js urls
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  279. # [15:04] <ondras> jgraham: i will have a look then
  280. # [15:04] <ondras> jgraham: but the strange taste of "in order to change src of a sandboxed iframe, I have to set the sandbox later" remains :/
  281. # [15:05] <ondras> jgraham: so the plan is to create a Blob out of that content and convert it to url via createObjectURL, right?
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  283. # [15:07] <jgraham> ondras: Yeah
  284. # [15:08] <ondras> jgraham: blob urls do not seem to work at all in IE/Edge
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  286. # [15:09] <beverloo> annevk, what's your take on re-using NotificationEvent vs. splitting it up in Notification{Click,Close}Event?
  287. # [15:09] <beverloo> the former would remove a fair amount of duplication/overhead, but the latter feels like the right thing to do
  288. # [15:11] <jgraham> ondras: Oh well
  289. # [15:11] <ondras> http://codepen.io/grimen/pen/lBuiG
  290. # [15:11] <ondras> I also googled this sample
  291. # [15:11] <ondras> does not work in IE
  292. # [15:11] <ondras> :/
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  298. # [15:19] <annevk> beverloo: due to action? There's many precedents set either way... I guess the click one could be a subclass if we really didn't want that action member on close
  299. # [15:19] <beverloo> Yes. It would always be "null" I guess
  300. # [15:20] <beverloo> I don't feel strongly either way, but in the future it's something we may want to look at?
  301. # [15:20] <annevk> Well, I guess we could, but it would be safer to be sure now
  302. # [15:21] <annevk> I don't think it matter much though. E.g., MessageEvent is used for dozens of things without anyone complaining
  303. # [15:21] <beverloo> one case I'm thinking of is inline replies - Mac is pushing this quite strongly, and Windows would be able to support it as well
  304. # [15:21] <beverloo> that'd be some kind of `notificationinput` event that's different again
  305. # [15:22] <beverloo> (this is rather far down our list of things to do, though)
  306. # [15:23] <annevk> Even that would likely just be a simple string that could be empty for the other events
  307. # [15:24] <annevk> I don't really care strongly either way I think
  308. # [15:24] <beverloo> I'm OK with that, keeps things simple
  309. # [15:24] <beverloo> same
  310. # [15:25] <beverloo> I'll merge his PR :)
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  318. # [15:37] <annevk> beverloo: please don't do it like that again going forward
  319. # [15:37] <annevk> beverloo: see https://github.com/whatwg/html/blob/master/TEAM.md
  320. # [15:37] <annevk> beverloo: also, the commit needed to be updated as bikeshed had not yet been run
  321. # [15:38] <annevk> anyway, for next time, I should probably add a section on Merging to the README everywhere to make it clear this applies everywhere, not just to HTML
  322. # [15:39] <beverloo> I was just updating bikeshed and fixing that indeed
  323. # [15:39] <beverloo> I'll read that page, sorry
  324. # [15:40] <annevk> don't worry, we haven't communicated this widely enough I think
  325. # [15:41] <beverloo> it's the first time I see that page, but I may've been out of the loop :)
  326. # [15:46] <beverloo> annevk, shall I push the html rebuild?
  327. # [15:46] <annevk> beverloo: yeah sure
  328. # [15:51] <beverloo> ok that worked. thank you!
  329. # [15:53] <beverloo> except for s/60/61/, meh. I'll play around with and learn the new git magic
  330. # [15:54] <annevk> beverloo: is Chromium still on subversion?
  331. # [15:55] <beverloo> no, we use git, but my workflow is limited to a few commands
  332. # [15:55] <beverloo> a lot of it is hidden by other commands (e.g. our gclient tool)
  333. # [15:55] <annevk> ah
  334. # [15:55] <beverloo> anyhow, sorry for the noise!
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  350. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> has there been any more movement on requestAutocomplete?
  351. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> I remember us having some discussion of it a year or so ago (or at least it seems like that long), but then nothing
  352. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> and I mean specifically as a way to help with solving problems with making payments easier in Web apps
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  397. # [19:04] <smaug____> MikeSmith: does WebEx have some webby UI?
  398. # [19:04] <smaug____> I see Java and iOS and Android stuff
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  420. # [19:42] <ritsyy> annevk: could you review this https://github.com/Ritsyy/html/commit/07ef4887e1af957bdc6dbf05b96db7ab547e56a7
  421. # [19:43] <annevk> ritsyy: the </dd> should remain adjacent to "specified.", just as before
  422. # [19:44] <annevk> ritsyy: looks good otherwise
  423. # [19:44] <ritsyy> but it is exceeding 100char per line then
  424. # [19:46] <annevk> ritsyy: then you'll need to put it on the next line
  425. # [19:46] <annevk> ritsyy: but we don't want to add spacing between opening tags and text, and closing tags and text
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  427. # [19:47] <ritsyy> annevk: oh okay i'll just add the specified and </dd> in the new line
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  431. # [19:50] <ritsyy> annevk: for this issue https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/248 , i was figuring out that, should the line that says about removing the collection of rows/cells when empty just be removed
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  438. # [20:05] <annevk> I'm not sure I understand
  439. # [20:05] <annevk> I guess we should test what browsers actually do with those methods when there are no cells/rows to remove
  440. # [20:05] <annevk> And then write that down
  441. # [20:09] <ritsyy> annevk: okay, will do that, thanks
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  477. # [22:58] * gsnedders wonders if it's worthwhile for the TAG to do anything about testsuites for specs… probably not, but maybe?
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  481. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> You mean the lack of them?
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  483. # [23:08] <jgraham> OK, without wanting to sound more cynical than is absolutely required, the TAG are about the last people on earth I want pontificating about testsuites
  484. # [23:09] <jgraham> It's not like they're actually going to spend time writing tests
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  487. # [23:13] <gsnedders> no, but some of the non-webapps non-CSS groups which have even larger problems with testing do listen to the TAG
  488. # [23:13] <gsnedders> And now the TAG is full of sensible people
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  490. # [23:17] <jgraham> Which non-webapps non-CSS groups that will listen to TAG but not plh do you have in mind?
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  492. # [23:24] <gsnedders> "but not plh" may well be a decent point :)
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