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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 20 00:00:00 2016
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  57. # [02:30] <smaug____> anyone want to interpret a sentence to me?
  58. # [02:30] <smaug____> Domenic: perhaps you're awake
  59. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> heycam: Yo, PR on WebIDL.
  60. # [02:30] <smaug____> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/forms.html#dom-cva-reportvalidity
  61. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> smaug____: I'm also available if it's in my wheelhouse.
  62. # [02:30] <heycam> TabAtkins: looking
  63. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> smaug____: What needs to be interpreted about that?
  64. # [02:31] <smaug____> TabAtkins: so, "if the element is a candidate for constraint validation and does not satisfy its constraints" ... "return false", "Otherwise, it must only return true without doing anything else."
  65. # [02:31] <smaug____> or is the "Otherwise, it must only return true without doing anything else." bound somehow differently
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  67. # [02:31] <smaug____> like to "if that event is not canceled"
  68. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> Unless this sentence is perverse, your first interpretation is right - the condition covers the rest of that sentence, and the following sentence gives the "else" branch for the conditional.
  69. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> I concur with TabAtkins’s assessment
  70. # [02:33] <smaug____> ok, thanks
  71. # [02:33] <smaug____> so, return true if element is valid effectively
  72. # [02:33] <TabAtkins> yeah
  73. # [02:34] * bholley is now known as bholley_away
  74. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> I prefer wording my conditionals so that the simpler branch is first, so the binding is clearer. So I'd have reversed this if I were writing it.
  75. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> I see why it's the way it is, tho - the condition is an AND of two conditions, and negating that makes it less clear to express.
  76. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> "If the element is not a candidate for constraint validation, or is a candidate and satisfies its constraints..."
  77. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Definitely a little fiddlier.
  78. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> I might just abandon English and go for a <dt class=switch>, then. Those are great when you've got conditionals with long branches.
  79. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> s/dt/dl/
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  233. # [11:30] <@annevk> hayato: not sure if you're still awake, but would greatly appreciate your input on the issues around events
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  235. # [11:31] <zcorpan> <p>If the <var>current media resource</var> is a raw data stream (e.g. from a
  236. # [11:31] <zcorpan> <code>File</code> object), then to determine the format of the <span>media resource</span>,
  237. # [11:32] <zcorpan> can it be a File object?
  238. # [11:32] <@annevk> zcorpan: MediaProvider lists Blob, so yes
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  256. # [12:31] <zcorpan> can someone test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/4085 in Edge?
  257. # [12:32] <zcorpan> (interested in whether body fills the viewport or not)
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  267. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> apologies to any Star Wars fans who follow me in twitter and may have been offended by my disrespect
  268. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> at the time I tweeted I was filled up with a lot of cheap airplane Chardonnay washed down with Goosehead IPA
  269. # [12:48] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: were those tweets about the latest one?
  270. # [12:48] <@annevk> haha
  271. # [12:50] <@annevk> MikeSmith: was already thinking of putting on Star Wars movies while you're here
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  274. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: haha
  275. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> Star Wars marathon
  276. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: yeah the latest one
  277. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> anyway was I drifting in and out of sleep so in hindsight I am not sure how much of it I remember was the the actual movie or instead something I was dreaming
  278. # [13:02] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@ip-200.t2.se.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  279. # [13:11] <@annevk> Wait per https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/events/EventTarget.cpp&sq=package:chromium&l=274 stuff dispatched through dispatchEvent() doesn't go through various phases in Chrome?
  280. # [13:15] <@annevk> I guess I'm missing something
  281. # [13:15] <@annevk> <script>document.documentElement.addEventListener("x", w);document.body.dispatchEvent(new Event("x", { bubbles: true }))</script> works fine
  282. # [13:16] <ondras> annevk: I would say that it goes only through AT_TARGET and bubbling
  283. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> JS calls https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/events/EventTarget.cpp&sq=package:chromium&l=252&rcl=1461122240
  284. # [13:16] <ondras> or maybe not
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  287. # [13:19] <@annevk> I wonder why they have all that different code
  288. # [13:19] <@annevk> It's certainly not very clear
  289. # [13:21] <@annevk> Ms2ger: but that also seems to call dispatchEventInternal
  290. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Yeah, dunno
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  292. # [13:25] <@annevk> I was trying to figure out the shadow tree logic by reading the code, but ...
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  307. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> so anybody ever had to block somebody from being able to post comments to a github issue tracker?
  308. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> have reached the end of my patience with this clown: https://github.com/w3c/push-api/issues/189#issuecomment-212377594
  309. # [14:00] <@annevk> I blocked the entire <keygen> issue...
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  313. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> Woot
  314. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> FileAPI has an editor
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  320. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
  321. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> was there any announcement anywhere?
  322. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ⬆
  323. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Not that I saw
  324. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> OK yeah would like to avoid somebody noticing who thinks we need to get formal approval
  325. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> and instead just get the facts on the ground from actual editing before they do
  326. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> not that I can imagine anybody would find this controversial but they do find surprising and novel ways to step in the way of productive working actually getting done
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  339. # [15:11] <@annevk> smaug____: \o/
  340. # [15:11] <@annevk> smaug____: you're awake, do you also have time?
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  364. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I did manage to figure out how to perma-ban the https://github.com/w3c/push-api/issues/189#issuecomment-212377594 troll org-wide
  365. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> it’s at https://github.com/organizations/FOO/settings/user_blocks where FOO is the org name
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  367. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> in other news, among the long list of ugly consequences the semweb crowd have inflicted on themselves with bad (over)designs, apparently since RDF vocabularies and “JSON-LD context files” are hard-wired in some way to depend on dereferenceable namespaces, they have dug themselves into being stuck with http as a result
  368. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> and can’t move those resources to https URLs ever
  369. # [16:03] <@annevk> Can't they use owl:sameAs?
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  371. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> I guess this was noted in the objections of some TAG members to the consensus that the rest of the universe has about moving to HTTPS everywhere, but I wasn’t paying attention
  372. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno but if not that maybe the can layer even some more extra shit on top of it
  373. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> no matter what they would have a hard time making it fundamentally worse
  374. # [16:06] <@annevk> That's exactly what I understood owl:sameAs to be
  375. # [16:06] <@annevk> Some way to paper over shit that is other people's identifiers
  376. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> nobody has mentioned that yet that I recall
  377. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> but again I’m not really paying attention more than just to read stuff and shake my head in disbelief
  378. # [16:07] <@annevk> MikeSmith: you don't read the stuff W3C publishes? This is from back in the days of "The Workshop": https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#sameAs-def
  379. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> the context for why I notice this today is that (surprise surprise) they are lobbying against efforts to get the W3C site moved all over to TLS
  380. # [16:08] * MikeSmith looks at https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#sameAs-def
  381. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> shrug I guess they have no way to hook that into namespace resolution
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  383. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> but boy look at the list of worthies who authored that doc
  384. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> really heavy-hitters in Web technologies
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  386. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> seriously this is what happens when you have people designing things for that Web who don’t actually understand how the Web actually works
  387. # [16:12] <@annevk> There's lots that applies though
  388. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> sure
  389. # [16:12] <@annevk> SMIL must be one of my more favorite examples of designing gone wrong: https://annevankesteren.nl/2006/03/smil
  390. # [16:13] * MikeSmith reads https://annevankesteren.nl/2006/03/smil
  391. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> god ten years ago, old man
  392. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> and still nobody listens to you!
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  394. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> haha “Ten namespaces more than HTML element names in HTML 2.0, 3.2, 4.01 and XHTML 1.1 combined” nice
  395. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> the Schreiber guy who co-edited that doc at least went on to become Wolverine’s brother and fight back to back together when him against evil Dead Pool, which is arguably a bit more than you have accomplished
  396. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> but you still have time
  397. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> "W3C isn't really consistent"
  398. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> - annevk, 17 December 2003
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  401. # [16:22] <wanderview> annevk: is there a big difference between a Response with an empty url list and a Response with a single url that is the empty string?
  402. # [16:22] <wanderview> or a significant difference, I mean
  403. # [16:23] <@annevk> wanderview: a URL cannot be the empty string
  404. # [16:23] <@annevk> wanderview: at least, a URL record cannot
  405. # [16:23] <wanderview> annevk: but Response only exposes urls as strings
  406. # [16:24] <wanderview> annevk: is it safe to safe Request must have at least one url in its url list, but Response may have no urls in its url list?
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  408. # [16:25] <@annevk> wanderview: that sounds correct
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  417. # [17:03] <@annevk> gsnedders: happy b-day young man 🎉🎂
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  437. # [17:51] <gsnedders> annevk: I SAID YOUNG MAN WHEN YOU WALK IN THE DOOR
  438. # [17:53] <@annevk> gsnedders: loud party? 😛
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  467. # [19:18] <Domenic> TabAtkins: should Bikeshed grow an "extended attribute" definition type (for Web IDL), or should I just stick with "dfn"?
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  469. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Currently I sprout specific types for the few extended attributes I care about. Lay out some use-cases for me that you want to hit and I'll see what the right thing should be.
  470. # [19:20] <Domenic> TabAtkins: well I realized I defined https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/scripting.html#cereactions yesterday but forgot to export it so I can use it in DOM etc. So now I want to correct that but I'm not sure how I should mark it up.
  471. # [19:21] <@annevk> smaug____: could you make time today to explain how Gecko does retargating (I'm assuming we have code for that) in https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/485?
  472. # [19:21] <@annevk> smaug____: I have to go in a bit, but that would help a lot with figuring out the right way to integrate the monkey patching of events from Shadow DOM
  473. # [19:22] <@annevk> smaug____: it's rather unclear to me at the moment what the right design should be, since the existing specification is rather unclear on the particulars, at least to me
  474. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Right now "dfn" is the right type. A new type *might* be useful, so I could autolink IDL to the definition of the extended attribute, but that would also clash with the autolinking of [Constructor]. I'll have to think about this.
  475. # [19:23] <Domenic> Yeah, I was going to ask about autolinking. But for now I think it works to just add [<a>CEReactions</a>]
  476. # [19:23] <smaug____> annevk: Gecko's relatedTarget retargeting may not be the good one. it happens during event handling
  477. # [19:24] <@annevk> smaug____: I'm just talking about target retargeting for now
  478. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Domenic: It does not, no, because Bikeshed reparses the IDL and throws out any markup in it. ^_^
  479. # [19:24] <smaug____> annevk: but let me read that bug again once I've dealt with these housing cooperative papers
  480. # [19:24] <Domenic> uh oh
  481. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> (It'll work for HTML where y'all still mark up all your IDL manually.)
  482. # [19:24] <smaug____> in 10 mins or so
  483. # [19:25] <@annevk> smaug____: enjoy and thanks
  484. # [19:25] <Domenic> So I guess I'll file a bug on Bikeshed to figure this out, and in the meantime DOM will just not have clickable annotations
  485. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> It might be fine to clash with Constructor linking - the definition of a Constructor is just the constructor method, which is super-obvious.
  486. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> All the rest can link to their concept definition.
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  501. # [20:03] <wanderview> JakeA: ping?
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  537. # [21:23] <Domenic> annevk: is ShadowRoot's innerHTML defined anywhere?
  538. # [21:24] <@annevk> Domenic: that's why I'm considering taking over parts of P&S…
  539. # [21:25] <Domenic> annevk: ah OK...
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  542. # [21:28] <Domenic> So many ReSpec specs.....
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  552. # [21:45] <zcorpan> font-family: monospace, Droid Sans Fallback, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif; https://resources.whatwg.org/standard.css
  553. # [21:45] <zcorpan> that... makes little sense
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  555. # [21:48] <smaug____> contradiction in the spec: " In all cases, the input event comes before the corresponding change event (if any)." ... "the user agent must queue a task to fire a simple event that bubbles named input at the input element. The corresponding change event, if any, will be fired when the control loses focus."
  556. # [21:49] * smaug____ files a bug
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  565. # [22:13] <smaug____> mounir: so what would a web page do with memorypressure?
  566. # [22:14] <smaug____> I mean, it could sure try to not keep certain stuff alive, but it would be still up to the GC/CC/whatever to actually release the stuff
  567. # [22:14] <Domenic> release blobs or canvases maybe
  568. # [22:14] <smaug____> mounir: oh, I see, UA is expected to GC afterwards
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  570. # [22:17] <smaug____> maybe this could work
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  573. # [22:20] <smaug____> mounir: though, do we really need any levels?
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  578. # [22:38] <JonathanNeal> I’m rewriting flex in JS, and I’m trying to group (row with row-reverse) and (column with column-reverse). I’m thinking the former means the container has a mainAxis of inline and later means the container has a mainAxis of block. Or should I just call them horizontal and vertical?
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  596. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Correct - row means inline, column means block
  597. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: ^^^
  598. # [23:16] <JonathanNeal> Awesome. I thought I had caught that. And the label for that is `axis`?
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  600. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "label"?
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  602. # [23:19] * JonathanNeal hopes to explain shortly.
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  608. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: something like this https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/500a650ce01ddea12d555e127cbb49ba#flex-container- I’m trying to define what happens as I calculate flexbox.
  609. # [23:41] <JonathanNeal> I’m describing an `axis` property on the flex container. It is either `inline` or `block` based on `flex-direction`.
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  612. # [23:57] * Quits: mven_ (~textual@32.97.110.52) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  613. # Session Close: Thu Apr 21 00:00:00 2016

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